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17 Finalists for Hall of Fame election announced (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Swing 51
- Start date
BelichicksRevenge
Footballguy
No sure things. I'm pulling for Tippett but not holding my breathe.
Perfect Tommy
Footballguy
Darrell Green and Cris Carter are locks of Gibralter. Darrell Green was the definitive CB in the league for the longest time. Deon Sanders was better in his day, but Green was unparalleled in what he did. Carter has very solid HOF stats and is well liked by the media.
Mungo Burrows
Footballguy
I'm not a Redskin fan, but it would be pretty cool to see Green, Monk and Grimm all go in the same year.
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
My predictions:
Cris Carter
Art Monk
Darrell Green
Emmitt Thomas
Gary Zimmerman
Bob Kuechenberg (I hope he doesnt make it. Kind of a miserable *******)
Really not that impressive a group.
I'm rooting for Andre Tippett much as I was rooting for Jim Rice but I dont see it.
Cris Carter
Art Monk
Darrell Green
Emmitt Thomas
Gary Zimmerman
Bob Kuechenberg (I hope he doesnt make it. Kind of a miserable *******)
Really not that impressive a group.
I'm rooting for Andre Tippett much as I was rooting for Jim Rice but I dont see it.
It's awesome to see Gradishar make the finalists. In my opinion, he's one of the biggest omissions from the HoF. His tackle numbers DOMINATE every other LBs- if you pro-rate his average game over a 16-game season, you're looking at 220 tackles a year. ON AVERAGE. And he averaged as many big plays (sacks, ints, fumbles) per game as Ray Lewis, who is widely considered a 1st-ballot lock.
Zimmerman is one of a handful of players who have made two all-decade teams (which are voted on by the HoF selection committee, by the way). I think it's time he gets in, too. Carter and Green should also be locks. After that, put in Kuech and either Thomas or Dent.
Zimmerman is one of a handful of players who have made two all-decade teams (which are voted on by the HoF selection committee, by the way). I think it's time he gets in, too. Carter and Green should also be locks. After that, put in Kuech and either Thomas or Dent.
Tau837
Footballguy
1. Carter and Green are locks IMO.
2. I was surprised Tagliabue didn't make it last year, and thus would expect him to make it this time.
3. On the offensive linemen, here are their All NFL, All Pro (albeit from pro-football-reference.com data, which is a bit diluted IMO) and Pro Bowl selections:
McDaniel (12 seasons, 28-31 teams in NFL) - 7 All NFL selections, 12 All Pro selections, 11 Pro Bowls
Zimmerman (12 seasons, 28-31 teams in NFL) - 4 All NFL selections, 9 All Pro selections, 7 Pro Bowls
Kuechenberg (12 seasons, 26-28 teams) - 2 All NFL selections, 5 All Pro selections, 6 Pro Bowls
Grimm (11 seasons, 28 teams) - 4 All NFL selections, 5 All Pro selections, 4 Pro Bowls
McDaniel was on the 1990s All Decade team. Grimm was on the 1980s All Decade team. Zimmerman made both of those teams. Kuechenberg was not so honored as far as I can tell.
There have been mentions of Grimm, Zimmerman, and Kuechenberg in this thread, but not McDaniel. IMO McDaniel is more deserving than the others. I think Zimmerman would be next.
4. Lots of people lobbying for Monk, but I don't see it. What has changed? He has been a finalist 7 times and missed the cut 7 times. Personally, I think Reed has a stronger case.
5. I expect one or both of the Senior Committee members to make it. They seem to have a high success rate.
2. I was surprised Tagliabue didn't make it last year, and thus would expect him to make it this time.
3. On the offensive linemen, here are their All NFL, All Pro (albeit from pro-football-reference.com data, which is a bit diluted IMO) and Pro Bowl selections:
McDaniel (12 seasons, 28-31 teams in NFL) - 7 All NFL selections, 12 All Pro selections, 11 Pro Bowls
Zimmerman (12 seasons, 28-31 teams in NFL) - 4 All NFL selections, 9 All Pro selections, 7 Pro Bowls
Kuechenberg (12 seasons, 26-28 teams) - 2 All NFL selections, 5 All Pro selections, 6 Pro Bowls
Grimm (11 seasons, 28 teams) - 4 All NFL selections, 5 All Pro selections, 4 Pro Bowls
McDaniel was on the 1990s All Decade team. Grimm was on the 1980s All Decade team. Zimmerman made both of those teams. Kuechenberg was not so honored as far as I can tell.
There have been mentions of Grimm, Zimmerman, and Kuechenberg in this thread, but not McDaniel. IMO McDaniel is more deserving than the others. I think Zimmerman would be next.
4. Lots of people lobbying for Monk, but I don't see it. What has changed? He has been a finalist 7 times and missed the cut 7 times. Personally, I think Reed has a stronger case.
5. I expect one or both of the Senior Committee members to make it. They seem to have a high success rate.
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BelichicksRevenge
Footballguy
I skimmed through the first paragraph and did'nt see those two on the main list. Yeah, they are both locks.Perfect Tommy said:
Yall forget that, the way the votes are set up, the two senior nominees are basically a lock.
Goldberg
E.Thomas
4-5 others (I think they're allowing seven total starting this year)
Green and Zimmerman are the only no-brainers IMHO, but Zimmerman didn't have nearly the support that I had expected. Tagliabue had a ton of votes last year, so he could easily make it this time; if so, that only leaves one or two spots for everyone else.
Goldberg
E.Thomas
4-5 others (I think they're allowing seven total starting this year)
Green and Zimmerman are the only no-brainers IMHO, but Zimmerman didn't have nearly the support that I had expected. Tagliabue had a ton of votes last year, so he could easily make it this time; if so, that only leaves one or two spots for everyone else.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Randall McDaniel is a lock. He's one of the top linemen of all time.
Gradishar should have been in the hall 20 years ago. Led his team in tackles for something like 10-12 seasons in a row without missing a start I believe. Dude was just as good (actually better IMHO) as Mean Joe Green, Hamm, or Lambert. The only reason he's been snubbed by the biased east coast voters is because he never played for a championship caliber team. Not his fault!??*** I confess to being a Bronco homer and thats why I want Randy to get in the HoF, but the #'s justify the cause. The fact that Elway is the only Bronco in the hall is inconceivable to me. I hope Zimm gets in even though he only played half his career in Denver. When does Floyd Little, Steve Atwater, or Dennis Smith get in?***
Kevin Ashcraft
Footballguy
I think I saw where 13/14 people nominated by Seniors have gotten in....This could be a special day for Kansas City. Emmitt Thomas and Derrick Thomas both getting in!My predictionsGoldbergE. ThomasTagsMcDanielD. ThomasGreenCarter
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
I dont think Derrick Thomas gets in. Andre Tippett was a much better all around linebacker.I think of Gradishar much in the same way as Steve Nelson for the Patriots. Should be inducted into his team's HOF but not Canton. Gradishar is close (Nelson wont sniff Canton) but not dynamic enough.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Cortez the King, your day will come
#96 is #1
#96 is #1
Floyd Little? Whenever the Senior committee gets around to him. There's a big backlog of senior candidates, and getting nominated through that process is much tougher than going through regular channels. Steve Atwater and Dennis Smith? Never. Hall of Very Good, and they'll save a seat for Rod Smith.
Man, Cris Carter had great stats, but I always felt he was overrated. I think he's getting in because he ran the greatest 5-yard out in the history of the game.
Art Monk is the Don Sutton of the NFL. Yeah, Sutton is a HOF'er, but that doesn't make it right. Monk was never the type of player where the opposing team said, "We have to shut down Monk if we are to win."
Darrell Green and Russ Grimm are very deserving, IMO.
If Ray Guy doesn't get in, it's like the voters are saying "Punters aren't NFL Players" Guy was the best punter ever.
Art Monk is the Don Sutton of the NFL. Yeah, Sutton is a HOF'er, but that doesn't make it right. Monk was never the type of player where the opposing team said, "We have to shut down Monk if we are to win."
Darrell Green and Russ Grimm are very deserving, IMO.
If Ray Guy doesn't get in, it's like the voters are saying "Punters aren't NFL Players" Guy was the best punter ever.
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
I've got news for you. Punters arent NFL players. He's most likely not getting in. There is only 1 full time place kicker in the HOF. Its not surprising that there are no punters.I dont think that Art Monk is a HOF'er but it is kind of a weak year so if he ever gets in it is probably this year.I also thought Carter is a bit overrated and he is really annoying on Inside the NFL but I think he has the kind of stats that get you automatic admission.
In 14 years, Steve Nelson made 3 pro bowls and had 5 all-pro seasons. In 10 seasons, Gradishar made 7 pro bowls and was an all pro in each of his final 8 years. Gradishar also won a DPoY award and was the heart of a defense good enough to earn a nickname. No comparison.Let's compare Gradishar to Ray Lewis, a guy who is widely considered a first-ballot lock at MLB. To start off with, let's get the "intangible" stuff out of the way. Ray Lewis was the heart and soul of an all-time great defense that carried its team to a championship. Gradishar was the heart and soul of an all-time great defense that carried its team to a championship game loss. Neither has any sustained postseason success outside of that.Lewis has played 12 seasons and made 9 pro bowls and 7 all pros. Lewis has two DPoY awards.Gradishar played 10 seasons and made 7 pro bowls and 8 all pros. Gradishar has one DPoY award.Lewis averages 9.4 tackles per game, which pro-rates to 150 in a 16-game season.Gradishar averaged 15.4 tackles per game (excluding his rookie season where he didn't start), which pro-rates to 246 tackles in a 16-game season. Stop, read that again. Let's dwell on this a bit. Gradishar's career WORST tackle-per-game number was 12.6, which came his sophomore year. That pro-rates to 202 tackles in 16 games. Ray Lewis's career BEST was 184 tackles. So Gradishar's WORST season was still 10% better than Lewis's BEST from a tackle standpoint. And Gradishar's best season was a mind-numbingly absurd 17.9 tackles per game (286 tackles in 16 games). For the record, the #2 and #3 tacklers in the NFL this year COMBINED put up 281 stops. Just throwing that out there.You specifically said that Gradishar wasn't "dynamic" enough, though, so let's look at some "dynamic" plays.Ray Lewis averages an INT per every 6.5 games. He returns each INT an average of 16.8 yards, with two career TDs.Gradishar averaged an INT per every 7.25 games. He returned each INT an average of 16.8 yards, with three career TDs.Ray Lewis averages a fumble recovery per every 12.5 games. He has returned all of his fumbles... a combined 1 yard. Not average, total. Seriously.Gradisahr averaged a fumble recovery per every 11.2 games. He returned all of his fumbles 72 total yards, with another TD chipped in for good measure.Ray Lewis averages a sack per every 5.4 games.Gradishar averaged a sack per every 7.25 games. Basically, Ray Lewis has a Superbowl MVP, a second DPoY award, and a few more sacks. Gradishar, meanwhile, blows Ray Lewis so far out of the water in tackles that he might as well be playing a different sport entirely, and stacks up very favorably in terms of turnovers forced (with a big edge in return yardage). Is that second DPoY really the difference between a first-ballot HoFer and a guy on the outside looking in?I write a novel of a post about how Gradishar deserves to be in, but the simple fact is that he stacked up extremely well against his peers (8 All Pros and a DPoY in 10 years), and he stacks up extremely well against history (most prolific tackler in NFL history... and it ain't even CLOSE). He has the intangibles and the leadership, and he headlined a knockout defense too boot. What on earth else would Gradishar have needed to do in order to be HoF caliber? Average 300 tackles a year? Win two more DPoY awards? End a few players' careers? Make All Pro in EVERY season instead of just 80% of the time? What?
cstu
Footballguy
Gradishar was a 5x All-Pro (1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981)
I was going off of the PFR page, which counts a player as an All-Pro in any season where he makes any of several different All Pro lists. Not the cleanest of comparisons, but at least it's a level one (since Lewis gets the same advantages).
obxlegends
Footballguy
This entire post is blasphemy.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
He wasn't.
Autumn Wind
Footballguy
Who was?
Autumn Wind
Footballguy
Oh yeah? Why do they call it the "Punt, Pass & Kick" competition then? Huh? Tell me!!@#@
redman
Footballguy
I'd consider going to Canton to watch that if that happened.I think Grimm's going to have to wait though; Green's a lock and I'd say Monk's likely based upon what some holdout voters have been saying about now voting for him.
The irony as a Redskins fan is that the one signature of all of the Gibbs teams of the 80's and early 90's was the offensive line, the Hogs, but not a single one of those guys is in. The two deserving of consideration are Grimm and Jacoby.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
Sammy Baugh
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
No Tasker? 
Monk vs Reed will probably cancel each other out.
Carter and Green and Tagliabue will likely get in.
Carter and Green and Tagliabue will likely get in.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I think there are three clear cut locks, and the rest are going to have a real uphill battle.
Cris Carter and Darrel Green are no questions asked, 100% locks
Paul Tagliabue should be a lock, too. He's beloved, isn't bumping anyone else from induction by selecting him, and there's no reasonable point to making the former commissioner wait a year or two.
Cris Carter and Darrel Green are no questions asked, 100% locks
Paul Tagliabue should be a lock, too. He's beloved, isn't bumping anyone else from induction by selecting him, and there's no reasonable point to making the former commissioner wait a year or two.
CalBear
Footballguy
Please search for one of the other Ray Guy threads for many clear refutations of this assertion. Ray Guy wouldn't make an NFL roster today.Edit to add: And there were other punters who were his contemporaries who performed just as well.
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MarshallRob
Footballguy
I don't know, but it clearly isn't Ray Guy. A number of current punters, Shane Lechler for one, are much better than Guy ever was.Autumn Wind said:
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I'm sure there will inevitably be 10 "Should Monk be a Hall of Famer" threads between now and the induction ceremony; but I PERSONALLY feel that a) Monk should be in the HOF, b ) he eventually will be and c) it needs to come in a year when there aren't that many contentious discussions by the panel. This could be the year, it certainly wouldn't surprise me.Weak field.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
When I was a freshman and sophomore in HS, our line coach would take us to the ASU games to watch him play. He told us that McD would be a HoFer. And we watched film of him all the time. He even came to one or two of our camps. Glad to see him in there and I would be shocked if he doesn't make it. But damn does it make me feel old.JMon348 said:
Tau837
Footballguy
Like I said above, I think Carter, Green, Tagliabue, McDaniel, and one or both of the senior nominees will/should make it. That leaves 1-2 spots. IMO nothing has changed to suddenly make Monk worthy than when he hasn't made it for the past 7 years. Sure it's a weaker field, but personally I'd take Zimmerman or Dent ahead of him. Not only that, personally, I'd take Reed over him too.I think it is pretty safe to say that all 3 of Carter, Monk, and Reed won't make it, and I think Carter is a lock. So if Monk were to make it, to me that implies Reed doesn't. Do you think Monk is more worthy than Reed?I'm sure there will inevitably be 10 "Should Monk be a Hall of Famer" threads between now and the induction ceremony; but I PERSONALLY feel that a) Monk should be in the HOF, b ) he eventually will be and c) it needs to come in a year when there aren't that many contentious discussions by the panel. This could be the year, it certainly wouldn't surprise me.Weak field.
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Sentiment may have changed a bit on Monk but I don't think it's a weak field where he's concerned this year. The Hall voters have rightfully been criticized a lot for putting in so many skill position players of late. This should be the year for defensive players and O-lineman who've been passed over. Carter's almost a certainty so that's already one spot used for a receiver, plus Reed's numbers are better than Monk's and it would be hard (though not impossible) to justify Monk going in and not Reed.Like I said above, I think Carter, Green, Tagliabue, McDaniel, and one or both of the senior nominees will/should make it. That leaves 1-2 spots. IMO nothing has changed to suddenly make Monk worthy than when he hasn't made it for the past 7 years. Sure it's a weaker field, but personally I'd take Zimmerman or Dent ahead of him. Not only that, personally, I'd take Reed over him too.I think it is pretty safe to say that all 3 of Carter, Monk, and Reed won't make it, and I think Carter is a lock. So if Monk were to make it, to me that implies Reed doesn't. Do you think Monk is more worthy than Reed?I'm sure there will inevitably be 10 "Should Monk be a Hall of Famer" threads between now and the induction ceremony; but I PERSONALLY feel that a) Monk should be in the HOF, b ) he eventually will be and c) it needs to come in a year when there aren't that many contentious discussions by the panel. This could be the year, it certainly wouldn't surprise me.Weak field.
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Dexter Manley
Footballguy
Darrell Green is the best CB I've ever seen play, and I was a big Deon fan when he was with the Falcons (most people forget that he was often a matchhead outside of the prime of his career). He is a mortal lock.
I will be shocked if Chris Carter and Tags aren't in this year. Ray Guy has no chance.
The final 3 selections is where it will get very interesting. IMHO, it's criminal that Monk hasn't been enshrined yet. He was the leader of those Redskins Super Bowl teams. He's one of the greatset blocking wr's of all time, and was often used like a te on running plays. And contrary to the persistent libel that Dr. Z spouts about him catching "815 button hooks," he was a complete receiver and was a deep threat (looks at the 1991 Skins highlights if you don't believe me). I've written essays on why he's more deserving than many others who are already in the HOF. With that being said, I suspect many on the panel either have personal vendettas against him, aren't educated about his career, or are simply being mentally dishonest with themselves in justifying his exclusion. Who knows if justice will finally be served.
Where things will be really contentious is on the oline, with Kuech, Grimm, McDaniel, and Zimmerman. All 4 of these guys are HOFer's imo -- don't know how they're going to decide between these guys.
Dean and Dent are in the HOVG, imo.
Didn't know about Gradishar until I read SSOG's essay, but it appears he deserves to be in. Tippett is a tough borderline case. DT is a HOFer, but he won't get in this year -- probably somewhere in the future.
Andre Reed, like every other wr that's been nominated since Monk's been eligible outside of Jerry Rice and now Carter, has no business in the HOF if Monk's not in.
I will be shocked if Chris Carter and Tags aren't in this year. Ray Guy has no chance.
The final 3 selections is where it will get very interesting. IMHO, it's criminal that Monk hasn't been enshrined yet. He was the leader of those Redskins Super Bowl teams. He's one of the greatset blocking wr's of all time, and was often used like a te on running plays. And contrary to the persistent libel that Dr. Z spouts about him catching "815 button hooks," he was a complete receiver and was a deep threat (looks at the 1991 Skins highlights if you don't believe me). I've written essays on why he's more deserving than many others who are already in the HOF. With that being said, I suspect many on the panel either have personal vendettas against him, aren't educated about his career, or are simply being mentally dishonest with themselves in justifying his exclusion. Who knows if justice will finally be served.
Where things will be really contentious is on the oline, with Kuech, Grimm, McDaniel, and Zimmerman. All 4 of these guys are HOFer's imo -- don't know how they're going to decide between these guys.
Dean and Dent are in the HOVG, imo.
Didn't know about Gradishar until I read SSOG's essay, but it appears he deserves to be in. Tippett is a tough borderline case. DT is a HOFer, but he won't get in this year -- probably somewhere in the future.
Andre Reed, like every other wr that's been nominated since Monk's been eligible outside of Jerry Rice and now Carter, has no business in the HOF if Monk's not in.
CalBear
Footballguy
1983 (Redskins SB loss): 1 catch, 26 yards.1984 (Redskins SB win): Did not play.1987 (Redskins SB win): 1 catch, 40 yards.1991 (Redskins SB win): 7 catches, 113 yards.At most you could say he was the leader of one Redskins SB team (1991)--though the fact that Gary Clark had 300 more yards and 2 more TDs on the season, and went for 7/114/1 in the Super Bowl, makes that a difficult argument to support.
redman
Footballguy
He was injured for three of those Super Bowls, though he played in two of the three. The point is that he was an important member of all of them and a big reason why they got there, not that he led the team in catches for that one game.
CalBear
Footballguy
He had 483 yards in 1987, and 746 in 1983. So of the four Super Bowl teams, there was only one (1984) where he came at all close to being the leading receiver on the team in the regular season, and none when he was the leading receiver in the post-season. You can't base people's Hall of Fame credits on things they might have done in a different universe; you can only base them on what they actually did.
Gottabesweet
Footballguy
Reed > Monk
ChrisCooleyFan
Footballguy
So tell me why Irvin made it over Monk! I guess because Monk is a classy guy, he doesn't get in!!
ChrisCooleyFan
Footballguy
Irvin
11 years
Receptions 750
Receiving Yards 11,904
Touchdowns 65
Monk
15 seasons
Receptions 940
Receiving Yards 12,721
Touchdowns 68
Seasons among the league's top 10
Receptions: 1984-1, 1985-2, 1988-9t, 1989-3t
Receiving yards: 1984-4, 1985-3, 1989-10
Receiving TDs: 1991-9t
Among the league's all-time top 50
Receptions: 6(940)
Receiving yards: 11(12,721)
Receiving TDs: 30t(68)
Yards from scrimmage: 26
Consecutive games with at least one reception: 2(183)
All-Rookie: 1980
3-time Pro Bowler: 1984, 1985, 1986
2-time All-Pro: 1984, 1985
11 years
Receptions 750
Receiving Yards 11,904
Touchdowns 65
Monk
15 seasons
Receptions 940
Receiving Yards 12,721
Touchdowns 68
Seasons among the league's top 10
Receptions: 1984-1, 1985-2, 1988-9t, 1989-3t
Receiving yards: 1984-4, 1985-3, 1989-10
Receiving TDs: 1991-9t
Among the league's all-time top 50
Receptions: 6(940)
Receiving yards: 11(12,721)
Receiving TDs: 30t(68)
Yards from scrimmage: 26
Consecutive games with at least one reception: 2(183)
All-Rookie: 1980
3-time Pro Bowler: 1984, 1985, 1986
2-time All-Pro: 1984, 1985
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