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2007 Rotosource Player Projection Competition Results (1 Viewer)

rotosource

Footballguy
I run a website that evaluates player projections by comparing them to the actual results, and we just finished our look at 2007 projections we collected. We included all four Football Guys projections from last year - two did pretty well, and two were pretty bad. Here are our full fantasy football projection ratings, but I wanted to post overall scores below:

We scaled scores so that 100 is the best projection, 0 is the worst:

CBS Sportsline - 100

Football Docs - 95

Fantasy Sharks - 92

Dominate Your League - 91

Football Outsiders - 89

Football Guys-David Dodds - 87

Football Guys-Bob Henry - 86

Rotoworld -85

Fantasy Guru - 84

Fantasy Sports Central - 84

Fantasy Football Today - 83

Roto Times - 80

ESPN - 77

Fantasy Football Toolbox - 76

Rotosource - 67

Fantasy Football Realm - 66

Huddle - 65

Fantasy Fanatics - 63

Football Guys-Chris Smith - 58

Dr. Stats - 50

Football Guys-Maurile Tremblay - 30

Roto Doc - 21

Football Diehards - 0

 
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A good read. Thank you.

The follow-up / accountability factor is a lost art in fantasy football. Keep it up.

 
Thank you. My gut has me rely on FO and Dodds, and glad to see them do well.

After reading some of Tremblay's posts, I think his approach is less about prediction accuracy, and more about setting up values that work on VBD. I'd be curious to hear how Maurile did in leagues using his projections. His projections definitely look "off" to me, but I am willing to give him a second look. I think there is some method to his madness.

 
looking at the 2006 top 6, Dominate your league and football outsiders have both retained a top 6 position both years. Not enough to matter a ton but worth looking at next year.

 
At first glance, it appears they used the projection sets that came loaded with the Projections Dominator.

 
rotosource,

Why is it this guy and that guy from a bunch of sites, but CBS Sportsline, ESPN etc as a whole?

If you used just one guy for those, who was it?

If not, how does FBG's combined ranking fare?

Also, why do this now? Why not when the season was over?

Why did you give Bob Harris a zero? He's a very well respected person around here and on the web. I have a hard time believing he got no projections right

ETA and one more Q-

Where is the full list of their projections you used? I see you mentioned some they hit and missed on. What about the rest?

 
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Why weren't my projections included?
Eagle Fan. Connect the dots.
I'm still confused. I'm part of the site's projections and have been since we went to multiple sets; so it's unclear why the rankings would include everyone else. Puzzling.
It says they grabbed freely-available projections, and also allowed people to submit behind-the-wall projections. So I guess there are two possibiliites:1. They used projections from pre-July 15, and you didn't have a set posted at the time they grabbed them. (I'm not sure why that would have been, but I guess it's possible)or2. David, Bob, Chris, and MT submitted their projections.
 
Why weren't my projections included?
well anyway, who'd you "hit" and who'd you "miss" on?where do you think you'd fall in these rankings?In reading the comments of some, missing on Steven Jackson and LJ, under projecting Moss, too much for Steve Smith CAR...seems to be fairly common. Can't say I wouldn't have been "off" with them either though.Hopefully this makes you staffers want to press DD to doing this yourselves and comparing everyone's projections. I don't do em' but it would seem re-analyzing them is the best way to learn and improve them from year to year.
 
Better question: why doesn't FBG grade and rank it's own projections? Surely they have all the data they need for the past 5-10 years? Show who's done well and who hasn't. I'm sure it will show that FBG is a good buy. And it should hopefully help provide insight on how to improve each year...

 
I'm more interested in better understanding the methodology that is used to determine accuracy and then, can it be concluded that it is a valid system.

If it does make sense, it would be great to have a contest for anyone willing to submit player projections to be evaluated following the upcoming season. Projections should also include receptions for each player since many leagues are ppr.

 
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I too am interested in the methodology and when the projections were grabbed for each of the entries. Was CBS Sportsline's drawn at a later date because they were free all year? Did they just use our free set that was not update after July 15th? How exactly is this scored?

 
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I too am interested in the methodology and when the projections were grabbed for each of the entries. Was CBS Sportsline's drawn at a later date because they were free all year? Did they just use our free set that was not update after July 15th? How exactly is this scored?
I scoured their site and couldn't get any info about how they score it or when they acquired the projections. Maybe the OP can shed some light on this.
 
I too am interested in the methodology and when the projections were grabbed for each of the entries. Was CBS Sportsline's drawn at a later date because they were free all year? Did they just use our free set that was not update after July 15th? How exactly is this scored?
And how are injuries taken into account? My assumption is that the answer is 'not at all' (i.e., final ranking based on total points is probably compared to preseason ranking and that's that). To me, a guy like Andre Johnson who was hurt much of the year but performed lights out when playing wasn't ranked incorrectly if he was ranked highly, and shouldn't have an injury held against the person doing the ranking the same way a player benched due to ineffectiveness should. Just using a PPG basis isn't the answer either, though, since there is value in being available vs being injured. I'm not sure what the answer should be, but a zero due to injury and a zero due to being benched for ineffectiveness are not the same thing and should not be treated equally when evaluating someone ranking each player.ETA -- it may be argued that it doesn't matter since the player is injured for anyone doing rankings, but that's not so. If I rank Tomlinson #1 and some moron ranks him #50 preseason, and he plays one game and tears an ACL, I come out looking a lot worse than the guy who ranked him #50 even though that ranking made no sense. If the argument then is that the other guy predicted the injury, that's something I'm not buying.
 
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I'm more interested in better understanding the methodology that is used to determine accuracy and then, can it be concluded that it is a valid system.

If it does make sense, it would be great to have a contest for anyone willing to submit player projections to be evaluated following the upcoming season. Projections should also include receptions for each player since many leagues are ppr.
2007 Fantasy Football Player Projection Competition ScoringThe above link does explain the methodology used. I will let others decide if it is valid or not. It did not say when projections were gathered.

 
Better question: why doesn't FBG grade and rank it's own projections? Surely they have all the data they need for the past 5-10 years? Show who's done well and who hasn't. I'm sure it will show that FBG is a good buy. And it should hopefully help provide insight on how to improve each year...
Yeah I agree why doesn't FBG rank the projections from previous years???Sounds like and excellent idea and would help on both offense and defense some are better at one than the other...
 
Better question: why doesn't FBG grade and rank it's own projections? Surely they have all the data they need for the past 5-10 years? Show who's done well and who hasn't. I'm sure it will show that FBG is a good buy. And it should hopefully help provide insight on how to improve each year...
Yeah I agree why doesn't FBG rank the projections from previous years???Sounds like and excellent idea and would help on both offense and defense some are better at one than the other...
I think the fact that there's no clear "best way" to evaluate projections is a big reason. Every way of doing these is flawed to some extent. If there was more of a consensus on what the best methodology for evaluating projections is, then I believe you'd see more of it.
 
Better question: why doesn't FBG grade and rank it's own projections? Surely they have all the data they need for the past 5-10 years? Show who's done well and who hasn't. I'm sure it will show that FBG is a good buy. And it should hopefully help provide insight on how to improve each year...
Yeah I agree why doesn't FBG rank the projections from previous years???Sounds like and excellent idea and would help on both offense and defense some are better at one than the other...
I think the fact that there's no clear "best way" to evaluate projections is a big reason. Every way of doing these is flawed to some extent. If there was more of a consensus on what the best methodology for evaluating projections is, then I believe you'd see more of it.
Precisely. It's not that people haven't thought of this. But with 100 people, you could have 100 opinions on what "accurate" constitutes. As already stated, if you evaluate Andre Johnson on p.p.g. he skyrockets up an "accuracy index" for those predicting him in the top 10 last year, opposed to total pts. for the year. That's only one of a dozen factors I'd personally take into account if I were REALLY looking to tackle this. You also want some formula to help determine what a "healthy game" constituted. Also, there's no accounting for what scoring system was being used by the "rankings" vs. production evaluation by the site evaluating these. Still interesting to see thoguh.
 
Just define an evaluation method and go with it. No, it won't be perfect, but it will be some kind of a guide as to how people did.

For example:

1. Use the Footballguys scoring system.

2. Make 20 points available per player and deduct a point for each percentage point difference between the projected total and the actual total.

3. Add up the points for each staff member.

Ignore the effect of injuries and PPG; it's just not worth trying to factor in.

Leagues are won and lost on what players actually score, not on what they might have scored if they had been healthy.

This could even develop into a form of subscriber contest if the scoring system were automated.

 
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Better question: why doesn't FBG grade and rank it's own projections? Surely they have all the data they need for the past 5-10 years? Show who's done well and who hasn't. I'm sure it will show that FBG is a good buy. And it should hopefully help provide insight on how to improve each year...
Yeah I agree why doesn't FBG rank the projections from previous years???Sounds like and excellent idea and would help on both offense and defense some are better at one than the other...
I think the fact that there's no clear "best way" to evaluate projections is a big reason. Every way of doing these is flawed to some extent. If there was more of a consensus on what the best methodology for evaluating projections is, then I believe you'd see more of it.
How is there not? Serious Q, I'm missing something hereIt would seem if player X got 800 yards and you projected 1000, you were too high. If you projected 800, you were correct. If you projected 600 you were too low.What's the mystery?789 yards not quite being 800?Give it a window then of 50 yards or 100 yards or somesuch.Followup Q-(again, I don't do em')How do you know if you are any good at it without some form of evaluation?ETA another Q-You look at your projections at the end of the year don't ya? Would seem only natural to come to a conclusionYeah I'm missing something here
 
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Bri said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
BoneYardDog said:
gheemony said:
Better question: why doesn't FBG grade and rank it's own projections? Surely they have all the data they need for the past 5-10 years? Show who's done well and who hasn't. I'm sure it will show that FBG is a good buy. And it should hopefully help provide insight on how to improve each year...
Yeah I agree why doesn't FBG rank the projections from previous years???Sounds like and excellent idea and would help on both offense and defense some are better at one than the other...
I think the fact that there's no clear "best way" to evaluate projections is a big reason. Every way of doing these is flawed to some extent. If there was more of a consensus on what the best methodology for evaluating projections is, then I believe you'd see more of it.
How is there not? Serious Q, I'm missing something hereIt would seem if player X got 800 yards and you projected 1000, you were too high. If you projected 800, you were correct. If you projected 600 you were too low.What's the mystery?789 yards not quite being 800?Give it a window then of 50 yards or 100 yards or somesuch.Followup Q-(again, I don't do em')How do you know if you are any good at it without some form of evaluation?ETA another Q-You look at your projections at the end of the year don't ya? Would seem only natural to come to a conclusionYeah I'm missing something here
There are lots of reasons why your criteria alone wouldn't paint the right picture...*** Injuries -- If you project a RB to put up 120 yards per game but they only play 6 games before tearing their ACL; your projection is going to look way off but, in fact, it could've been spot on if they ended the season with 720 rushing yards*** Overproning -- Lots of people (especially many of the main hosting sites like ESPN) overproject. As you know, we go through intense efforts to make sure our projections sum up to league means and norms; and that a team's total projected receptions matches a team's total projected pass completions, etc... Someone could overproject a given player and appear "wrong" when in fact for draft purposes they could've been very accurate. So long as they overproject as a rule, their projected RB10 could still finish RB10 and that would've been a good projection*** Underproning -- The opposite of overproningAnother HUGE issue is magnitude of the miss. All missteps aren't created equally.If I pimp a RB as the 2nd best RB in the league, and he finishes 12th..that's frankly going to be a LOT more painful than if I ranked someone RB32 and they finish at RB42. There is no question the weighting of each respective ranking matters; but quantifying the dropoff per rank or total points is something impossible to come to a consensus about.
 
original Qs snipped for length, one post upThanks for the reply

There are lots of reasons why your criteria alone wouldn't paint the right picture...*** Injuries -- If you project a RB to put up 120 yards per game but they only play 6 games before tearing their ACL; your projection is going to look way off but, in fact, it could've been spot on if they ended the season with 720 rushing yards
I think ya gotta take the hit with injuries. It's tough but it's gotta be no excuses with them. Everyone would know the player got injured and that's why it was off but, still if you drafted him you'd be stuck so....Everyone in FF feels that pain, in evaluating, you guys should too.
*** Overproning -- Lots of people (especially many of the main hosting sites like ESPN) overproject. As you know, we go through intense efforts to make sure our projections sum up to league means and norms; and that a team's total projected receptions matches a team's total projected pass completions, etc... Someone could overproject a given player and appear "wrong" when in fact for draft purposes they could've been very accurate. So long as they overproject as a rule, their projected RB10 could still finish RB10 and that would've been a good projection*** Underproning -- The opposite of overproning
I don't care too much about completions but it's always nice to see attention to detail. That's great.
Another HUGE issue is magnitude of the miss. All missteps aren't created equally.If I pimp a RB as the 2nd best RB in the league, and he finishes 12th..that's frankly going to be a LOT more painful than if I ranked someone RB32 and they finish at RB42. There is no question the weighting of each respective ranking matters; but quantifying the dropoff per rank or total points is something impossible to come to a consensus about.
That's a good point.I don't think you should go to rankings. I consider it two different things. You guys project and then use those #s to come up with your rankings as an end result. (as you know)Projections are stats, I think it should stay with stats. So along with your point, give it a scale. Off 101-150 yards -2 pointsOff 151-200 yards -3 pointsOff 201-250 yards -5(seems more significant)Or maybe the total has to be considerred first somehowA 150 yard WR(season) and a 350 yard WR both stink in FF. Who would care if you were off on that? But an 800 and a 1000 yard WR seem different. The same 200 yard total seems more significant. Also projecting LT to get 1600 yards or 1800 yards, either way he rocked. I'd bet if we brainstorm in here we could come up with a formulaLet's assume you compare yours to DD and he comes out ahead. You compare yours to Maurile and you feel yours are better. Why? I think you guys need to somehow try and nail down why you feel that way first.
 
original Qs snipped for length, one post upThanks for the reply

There are lots of reasons why your criteria alone wouldn't paint the right picture...*** Injuries -- If you project a RB to put up 120 yards per game but they only play 6 games before tearing their ACL; your projection is going to look way off but, in fact, it could've been spot on if they ended the season with 720 rushing yards
I think ya gotta take the hit with injuries. It's tough but it's gotta be no excuses with them. Everyone would know the player got injured and that's why it was off but, still if you drafted him you'd be stuck so....
The point isn't just about excuses. The point is that injuries can distort who the really good picks were. The primary example here is Donovan McNabb 2006. He was by far QB1 when he went down after 10 games. If you take McNabb's first 10 games and just about any backup for the last 6, you probably got the best production in your league from the QB position. McNabb finished 9th in total points. But the person who projected him at QB2 did a much better job --- not only of pegging the quality of McNabb's play, but also of pegging the relative value of McNabb compared to other QBs --- than the guy who projected him at QB9.There have been some good threads on this. I'll do some hunting....
 
Couch Potato said:
David Dodds said:
I too am interested in the methodology and when the projections were grabbed for each of the entries. Was CBS Sportsline's drawn at a later date because they were free all year? Did they just use our free set that was not update after July 15th? How exactly is this scored?
And how are injuries taken into account? My assumption is that the answer is 'not at all' (i.e., final ranking based on total points is probably compared to preseason ranking and that's that). To me, a guy like Andre Johnson who was hurt much of the year but performed lights out when playing wasn't ranked incorrectly if he was ranked highly, and shouldn't have an injury held against the person doing the ranking the same way a player benched due to ineffectiveness should. Just using a PPG basis isn't the answer either, though, since there is value in being available vs being injured. I'm not sure what the answer should be, but a zero due to injury and a zero due to being benched for ineffectiveness are not the same thing and should not be treated equally when evaluating someone ranking each player.ETA -- it may be argued that it doesn't matter since the player is injured for anyone doing rankings, but that's not so. If I rank Tomlinson #1 and some moron ranks him #50 preseason, and he plays one game and tears an ACL, I come out looking a lot worse than the guy who ranked him #50 even though that ranking made no sense. If the argument then is that the other guy predicted the injury, that's something I'm not buying.
Excellent points, the perfect example here being that CBS is getting credit for telling people to stay away from Ronnie Brown last year. Being that he still finished 23rd in ppr league rb scoring last year why would I be happy to have stayed away?
 
original Qs snipped for length, one post upThanks for the reply

There are lots of reasons why your criteria alone wouldn't paint the right picture...*** Injuries -- If you project a RB to put up 120 yards per game but they only play 6 games before tearing their ACL; your projection is going to look way off but, in fact, it could've been spot on if they ended the season with 720 rushing yards
I think ya gotta take the hit with injuries. It's tough but it's gotta be no excuses with them. Everyone would know the player got injured and that's why it was off but, still if you drafted him you'd be stuck so....
The point isn't just about excuses. The point is that injuries can distort who the really good picks were. The primary example here is Donovan McNabb 2006. He was by far QB1 when he went down after 10 games. If you take McNabb's first 10 games and just about any backup for the last 6, you probably got the best production in your league from the QB position. McNabb finished 9th in total points. But the person who projected him at QB2 did a much better job --- not only of pegging the quality of McNabb's play, but also of pegging the relative value of McNabb compared to other QBs --- than the guy who projected him at QB9.There have been some good threads on this. I'll do some hunting....
But there's a caveat to your example and that's having had a decent replacement for McNabb. I've been in leagues where any QB outside the top 15 or so are available. I've been in leagues where all 32 (if not more) are on teams. I imagine you probably have too.I can see how the guy that had a good backup or was able to land someone off the WW is thrilled with the McNabb pick for 10 weeks. The guy that was stuck with no one (no one worthwhile) to pickup off the WW. He's probably the one that had a good record and is getting pummelled in the playoffs without him. He's likely not so happy. Because of this guy, you guys gotta take a hit for the injuries IMO. (like I said above, everyone will know why the projection was off)And with McNabb, how could you not consider him a high injury risk? In 2006, 4 of the last 5 years he missed time. Right now, it's been 5 years since he played a full 16 game season. We're not talking about Tomlinson who has only missed one game in his career. Even if it's good points for pre injury stats + negative points for no stats post injury= a wash, and it's neither a good or bad projection; I'd say it's more fair than just blowing off the injury. Also, if he came out ahead(not a wash) and received just some negative points for the injury, that'd be cool too.
 
I think ya gotta take the hit with injuries. It's tough but it's gotta be no excuses with them. Everyone would know the player got injured and that's why it was off but, still if you drafted him you'd be stuck so....
If you believe some players are injury prone and that it's within human ability to identify those players, you're right Bri. If you don't believe that, you've got to go with some sort of per game method - or remove the player from the analysis all together.
 
The point is this --

Let's say eight different people projected Ronnie Brown at between 1400 and 1500 combined yards. Since Brown got injured, whoever had him at the lowest total was automatically the "best" predictor. Which is completely meaningless -- everyone was wrong by predicting him not to get injured. You shouldn't get extra credit just because you happened to have the lowest number, unless you actually predicted that he would only start seven games.

Or if you judge by year-end ranking, suppose that seven people judge Tomlinson to be the #1 RB next year, and one person says he's #2. Then he gets injured and misses eight games, so that he finishes #35 in total fantasy points. Should the person who said he's #2 get extra credit for only being off by 33 slots instead of 34?

 
Actually, after reading the actual Rotosource methodology, it's actually much worse than this. They take the difference in year-end fantasy point totals, then square it. That magnifies large differences to the point where the numbers are meaningless.

Last year, Ronnie Brown finishes with 129 fantasy points, and Carnell Williams finishes with 40. Dodds predicted both of them to be at about 180 points. So he gets a total demerit of 51^2 + 140^2 = 22,201. Compare him with someone who predicted them to have 170 points (barely half a point per game difference), and the demerit is 41^2 + 130^2 = 18,581 - an utterly absurd difference of 3,620

Now let's take two players Dodds predicted very well -- Joseph Addai finished with 234 points, and McGahee had 192 points. Dodds had them at 239 and 203, respectively. That's only 5^2 + 11^2 = 146 demerit points. Let's say someone predicted the exact opposite: McGahee at 239 and Addai at 203. That should be a huge penalty compared to Dodds, right? Well, the total demerit would be 47^2+ 31^2 = 3,170, for a difference of 3,026 -- or a much smaller penalty than being a tad higher on two injured players.

So unless I have the Rotosource formula wrong, their rankings are completely worthless.

 
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Actually, after reading the actual Rotosource methodology, it's actually much worse than this. They take the difference in year-end fantasy point totals, then square it. That magnifies large differences to the point where the numbers are meaningless.

Last year, Ronnie Brown finishes with 129 fantasy points, and Carnell Williams finishes with 40. Dodds predicted both of them to be at about 180 points. So he gets a total demerit of 51^2 + 140^2 = 22,201. Compare him with someone who predicted them to have 170 points (barely half a point per game difference), and the demerit is 41^2 + 130^2 = 18,581 - an utterly absurd difference of 3,620

Now let's take two players Dodds predicted very well -- Joseph Addai finished with 234 points, and McGahee had 192 points. Dodds had them at 239 and 203, respectively. That's only 5^2 + 11^2 = 146 demerit points. Let's say someone predicted the exact opposite: McGahee at 239 and Addai at 203. That should be a huge penalty compared to Dodds, right? Well, the total demerit would be 47^2+ 31^2 = 3,170, for a difference of 3,026 -- or a much smaller penalty than being a tad higher on two injured players.

So unless I have the Rotosource formula wrong, their rankings are completely worthless.
I believe they square differences to ensure that they have a positive number to factor in. Simple statistical tool. Otherwise, the formula doesn't work because you're adding positive and negative figures together.
 
original Qs snipped for length, one post up

Thanks for the reply

There are lots of reasons why your criteria alone wouldn't paint the right picture...

*** Injuries -- If you project a RB to put up 120 yards per game but they only play 6 games before tearing their ACL; your projection is going to look way off but, in fact, it could've been spot on if they ended the season with 720 rushing yards
I think ya gotta take the hit with injuries. It's tough but it's gotta be no excuses with them. Everyone would know the player got injured and that's why it was off but, still if you drafted him you'd be stuck so....
The point isn't just about excuses. The point is that injuries can distort who the really good picks were. The primary example here is Donovan McNabb 2006. He was by far QB1 when he went down after 10 games. If you take McNabb's first 10 games and just about any backup for the last 6, you probably got the best production in your league from the QB position. McNabb finished 9th in total points. But the person who projected him at QB2 did a much better job --- not only of pegging the quality of McNabb's play, but also of pegging the relative value of McNabb compared to other QBs --- than the guy who projected him at QB9.

There have been some good threads on this. I'll do some hunting....
But there's a caveat to your example and that's having had a decent replacement for McNabb. I've been in leagues where any QB outside the top 15 or so are available. I've been in leagues where all 32 (if not more) are on teams. I imagine you probably have too.I can see how the guy that had a good backup or was able to land someone off the WW is thrilled with the McNabb pick for 10 weeks.

The guy that was stuck with no one (no one worthwhile) to pickup off the WW. He's probably the one that had a good record and is getting pummelled in the playoffs without him. He's likely not so happy. Because of this guy, you guys gotta take a hit for the injuries IMO. (like I said above, everyone will know why the projection was off)

And with McNabb, how could you not consider him a high injury risk? In 2006, 4 of the last 5 years he missed time. Right now, it's been 5 years since he played a full 16 game season. We're not talking about Tomlinson who has only missed one game in his career.

Even if it's good points for pre injury stats + negative points for no stats post injury= a wash, and it's neither a good or bad projection; I'd say it's more fair than just blowing off the injury. Also, if he came out ahead(not a wash) and received just some negative points for the injury, that'd be cool too.
Except for the fact that they said that there formula is based off of a 10 team yahoo league that starts 1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 K, and 1 D. There's not too many times where there are no starting QBs available on WWs in 10 team leagues. Some kind of PPG ranking has to fit in here somewhere or there's way too much luck involved with these rankings because of injuries. You can't just blow it off and say, "Everyone has to deal with injuries, so it's the same for everyone." This just has the potential to skew results so dramatically as to make them meaningless.

 
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I believe they square differences to ensure that they have a positive number to factor in. Simple statistical tool.
Like a hammer, it's a dangerous tool when the holder doesn't know how to use it.Squaring differences is a tool used for regression lines to determine the best fit with the data. It has no validity in this particular situation.
 
OK - a lot of questions and feedback here, so I'll try to answer as much as I can.

First - Wood. We pulled projections from the site, and it's possible that we just missed yours. We pulled projections in mid August, so if they were up then then they should have been included. We can rate them now if you want, if you have a version that was in place on August 17th or so (although because we can't verify the last date they were updated we would just post the score here rather than on the site).

Second - Why did we rate a bunch from Football Guys, and only one from most sites? Simply because your sites allow you to get a draft package that gives you a choice of projections. Most draft packages include only one projection set - so that's the one we rated.

Third - Scoring. Because we scored projection sets by summing the squares of the differences, we ended up with total raw scores for the projections that varied between 461,000 and 764,000. We scaled the scores so that the set scoring 461,000 scored 100, the 764,000 set scored 0, and every other set scored proportionally between them. The formula for converting a set's raw score to its final score was something like [1 - (rawscore - 461,000)/(764,000 - 461,000)]. A score of zero didn't mean the projection set had nothing right - just that it was the worst in the group.

Fourth - Why release now rather than at the close of the season? Simply because this project was a lot of work, and we didn't get around to evaluating the sets until now. We were hopeful that this would still be in time for the upcoming season - next year we hope to be more on top of it.

Fifth - Why sum of the squares? Simply because in the plethora of stats classes I took, variance was usually dealt with as the square. Of course, squares are also used in regression analysis, but that fact doesn't invalidate their use in variance calculations. In principal it makes everything positive numbers, but I never really understood why using absolute value wasn't just as good. I suppose that tradition is the answer for why we did it this way, but it's probable that their use has some better reason for that in traditional variance calculations.

Sixth - Injuries. This was a major issue, and we were very tempted to deal with the issue in the following way (in fact, parts of the guide still refer to this method): For injured players, points per game is not a true reflection of value, nor is total points. The true reflection of value is the points that player accumulated during the games he played, plus replacement value on the games not played. We felt that true replacement value was best measured not as "waiver-wire level", but at "backup level". To clarify what that means, if you are in a 10-team league playing two RBs, and you figure that players will keep three running backs on their bench in general, the waiver wire RB is the 51st RB or so, and the backup level RB is 21st or so. So the method here, for a player that played ten games, would be to take the points they collected in those ten games and add those points to the points that a backup RB would have collected (the ppg for a backup RB times six).

That calculation is a little complicated because it is reflexive (just who the 21st RB is requires some ranking, and a ranking requires assessment of waiver wire value), but it can be done reasonably well. There is a complication in that some injuries can't be predicted - the player is played by the fantasy manager, and then turns out not to play - so replacement value has to be downgraded a little, but that's not terribly difficult to estimate either. We didn't do it this way because it complicates the analysis significantly, and doesn't usually change the results a flat ton. The fact is that it's unusual that a player turns out to have a lot of value whose injury significantly affects the number of games he plays in. I guess we can rerun the stuff using this method, but the reason we abandoned it was because it was a ton more work and didn't really change much at all.

OK - let me know if you have any other questions - I'll check in later today.

 
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Fifth - Why sum of the squares? Simply because in the plethora of stats classes I took, variance was usually dealt with as the square. Of course, squares are also used in regression analysis, but that fact doesn't invalidate their use in variance calculations. In principal it makes everything positive numbers, but I never really understood why using absolute value wasn't just as good. I suppose that tradition is the answer for why we did it this way, but it's probable that their use has some better reason for that in traditional variance calculations.
No offense, but why use a measurement that you don't understand?I am not the statistics guru that some people here are, but I suspect that if you understood the variance calculations better, you'd realize that it's the wrong way to measure this sort of thing.

 
original Qs snipped for length, one post up

Thanks for the reply

There are lots of reasons why your criteria alone wouldn't paint the right picture...

*** Injuries -- If you project a RB to put up 120 yards per game but they only play 6 games before tearing their ACL; your projection is going to look way off but, in fact, it could've been spot on if they ended the season with 720 rushing yards
I think ya gotta take the hit with injuries. It's tough but it's gotta be no excuses with them. Everyone would know the player got injured and that's why it was off but, still if you drafted him you'd be stuck so....
The point isn't just about excuses. The point is that injuries can distort who the really good picks were. The primary example here is Donovan McNabb 2006. He was by far QB1 when he went down after 10 games. If you take McNabb's first 10 games and just about any backup for the last 6, you probably got the best production in your league from the QB position. McNabb finished 9th in total points. But the person who projected him at QB2 did a much better job --- not only of pegging the quality of McNabb's play, but also of pegging the relative value of McNabb compared to other QBs --- than the guy who projected him at QB9.

There have been some good threads on this. I'll do some hunting....
But there's a caveat to your example and that's having had a decent replacement for McNabb. I've been in leagues where any QB outside the top 15 or so are available. I've been in leagues where all 32 (if not more) are on teams. I imagine you probably have too.I can see how the guy that had a good backup or was able to land someone off the WW is thrilled with the McNabb pick for 10 weeks.

The guy that was stuck with no one (no one worthwhile) to pickup off the WW. He's probably the one that had a good record and is getting pummelled in the playoffs without him. He's likely not so happy. Because of this guy, you guys gotta take a hit for the injuries IMO. (like I said above, everyone will know why the projection was off)

And with McNabb, how could you not consider him a high injury risk? In 2006, 4 of the last 5 years he missed time. Right now, it's been 5 years since he played a full 16 game season. We're not talking about Tomlinson who has only missed one game in his career.

Even if it's good points for pre injury stats + negative points for no stats post injury= a wash, and it's neither a good or bad projection; I'd say it's more fair than just blowing off the injury. Also, if he came out ahead(not a wash) and received just some negative points for the injury, that'd be cool too.
Except for the fact that they said that there formula is based off of a 10 team yahoo league that starts 1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 K, and 1 D. There's not too many times where there are no starting QBs available on WWs in 10 team leagues. Some kind of PPG ranking has to fit in here somewhere or there's way too much luck involved with these rankings because of injuries. You can't just blow it off and say, "Everyone has to deal with injuries, so it's the same for everyone." This just has the potential to skew results so dramatically as to make them meaningless.
10 teamer doesn't change it. It just seems to be a league to league thing. Once guys start grabbing a 3rd QB, others tend to do the same in drafts. PPG is fine. I thought we could hash out some formula here. I would think PPG would have to have something taken away from it because the player played just 2 games or somesuch. It could be minor. Let's hash out some formula.

All I'm saying is there's gotta be a negative thrown into the formula. It could be minimal. We all feel it when we're participating in FF leagues, so it shouldn't be brushed off. How much of an impact is debatable(and is being debated) sure. Let's hash out a formula

 
OK - a lot of questions and feedback here, so I'll try to answer as much as I can.First - Wood. We pulled projections from the site, and it's possible that we just missed yours. We pulled projections in mid August, so if they were up then then they should have been included. We can rate them now if you want, if you have a version that was in place on August 17th or so (although because we can't verify the last date they were updated we would just post the score here rather than on the site).Second - Why did we rate a bunch from Football Guys, and only one from most sites? Simply because your sites allow you to get a draft package that gives you a choice of projections. Most draft packages include only one projection set - so that's the one we rated.Third - Scoring. Because we scored projection sets by summing the squares of the differences, we ended up with total raw scores for the projections that varied between 461,000 and 764,000. We scaled the scores so that the set scoring 461,000 scored 100, the 764,000 set scored 0, and every other set scored proportionally between them. The formula for converting a set's raw score to its final score was something like [1 - (rawscore - 461,000)/(764,000 - 461,000)]. A score of zero didn't mean the projection set had nothing right - just that it was the worst in the group.Fourth - Why release now rather than at the close of the season? Simply because this project was a lot of work, and we didn't get around to evaluating the sets until now. We were hopeful that this would still be in time for the upcoming season - next year we hope to be more on top of it.Fifth - Why sum of the squares? Simply because in the plethora of stats classes I took, variance was usually dealt with as the square. Of course, squares are also used in regression analysis, but that fact doesn't invalidate their use in variance calculations. In principal it makes everything positive numbers, but I never really understood why using absolute value wasn't just as good. I suppose that tradition is the answer for why we did it this way, but it's probable that their use has some better reason for that in traditional variance calculations.Sixth - Injuries. This was a major issue, and we were very tempted to deal with the issue in the following way (in fact, parts of the guide still refer to this method): For injured players, points per game is not a true reflection of value, nor is total points. The true reflection of value is the points that player accumulated during the games he played, plus replacement value on the games not played. We felt that true replacement value was best measured not as "waiver-wire level", but at "backup level". To clarify what that means, if you are in a 10-team league playing two RBs, and you figure that players will keep three running backs on their bench in general, the waiver wire RB is the 51st RB or so, and the backup level RB is 21st or so. So the method here, for a player that played ten games, would be to take the points they collected in those ten games and add those points to the points that a backup RB would have collected (the ppg for a backup RB times six).That calculation is a little complicated because it is reflexive (just who the 21st RB is requires some ranking, and a ranking requires assessment of waiver wire value), but it can be done reasonably well. There is a complication in that some injuries can't be predicted - the player is played by the fantasy manager, and then turns out not to play - so replacement value has to be downgraded a little, but that's not terribly difficult to estimate either. We didn't do it this way because it complicates the analysis significantly, and doesn't usually change the results a flat ton. The fact is that it's unusual that a player turns out to have a lot of value whose injury significantly affects the number of games he plays in. I guess we can rerun the stuff using this method, but the reason we abandoned it was because it was a ton more work and didn't really change much at all.OK - let me know if you have any other questions - I'll check in later today.
I don't feel this is a good way to judge em'. Thanks for sharing here. You do and regardless of disagreement, I still find it interesting
 
I think ya gotta take the hit with injuries. It's tough but it's gotta be no excuses with them. Everyone would know the player got injured and that's why it was off but, still if you drafted him you'd be stuck so....
If you believe some players are injury prone and that it's within human ability to identify those players, you're right Bri. If you don't believe that, you've got to go with some sort of per game method - or remove the player from the analysis all together.
I think if there's an overwhelming trend you shouldn't ignore it. I think we were discussing McNabb missing time each of the last 4 years, or 5 of the last 6, so after that I don't think it's a stretch to say he'll miss some time in 2008. If you get much more specific it's all gut calls that can bite ya like those that were still calling Taylor "Fragile Freddy" while others were winning leagues with him.

If McNabb makes it thru 16, it'd be time to rethink it. He doesn't seem to miss alot of games every year, don't want to get carried away here.

Also per game is how the hobby is played. Projections though are based on a full season.

If someguy projects LJ to get 25 ppg and he gets that, that's awesome. If he projects him to get 1500 yards and he only gets 350, it's like.....hang on a sec, that's a big difference. Maybe there should be some thought into how to gauge that difference.

A good projector(projectionist? term?) is going to get plenty right. Focusing on injuries too much would overshadow those correct calls. If some guy gets 18 out of 20 players dead on accurate and 2 he missed due to injury, he's miss cleo.

 
Ah. Just what I was looking for. I love the accountability. Just another factor for me to consider when putting together my rankings for 2008!

I did use several of the sources listed there in 2007. No wonder I won or finished 2nd in all of my leagues (4 leagues). In 2008, it is championships or bust.

 
Fifth - Why sum of the squares? Simply because in the plethora of stats classes I took, variance was usually dealt with as the square. Of course, squares are also used in regression analysis, but that fact doesn't invalidate their use in variance calculations. In principal it makes everything positive numbers, but I never really understood why using absolute value wasn't just as good. I suppose that tradition is the answer for why we did it this way, but it's probable that their use has some better reason for that in traditional variance calculations.
No offense, but why use a measurement that you don't understand?I am not the statistics guru that some people here are, but I suspect that if you understood the variance calculations better, you'd realize that it's the wrong way to measure this sort of thing.
Just curious as to how you would structure such a calculation? Please feel free to post exact formulas in your reply. Thanks.
 

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