*** 2013 Official Philadelphia Eagles - NFC EAST CHAMPS*** (1 Viewer)

[renesauz]

When do we get to discus Foles again?

I'd still love to see Foles get a chance over several games this year.

I had people over and wasnt paying attention or able to hear to the game like I usually do. At times it seemed like Vick had plenty of time to throw but ended up running. Were guys just covered or was he just missed open guys? Was any of this ever alluded to?

Honestly don't know. I live in Virginia and all I saw was Red Zone coverage...who showed little of the game and none of Foles' snaps

 

[ShaHBucks]

When do we get to discus Foles again?

I'd still love to see Foles get a chance over several games this year.

I had people over and wasnt paying attention or able to hear to the game like I usually do. At times it seemed like Vick had plenty of time to throw but ended up running. Were guys just covered or was he just missed open guys? Was any of this ever alluded to?

Vick has 0 anticipation and timing. Just watching him vs Peyton shows you what "open" or "putting your receivers in position to gain yac" means to a eliete pocket passer. When he did try throwing into traffic under Andy he threw int's, at least that isn't the case.

 

[unckeyherb]

Sorry, but Vick is good enough to hit open WRs and usually can thread the needle with his arm strength. In the beginning of the game there were numerous time where he had time and simply had no options to throw and took off.

They showed a replay of the WR's (Desean and Cooper definitely, can't remember the third) after one of those plays and no one got ANY separation; and to my untrained eye, it didn't appear that they were trying very hard. One mans opinion. I put this on our complete lack of a complementary WR to Desean-who is still being used as a one trick pony. Again, JMO.

 

[Billy Bats]

What herb said. Outside of Desean the WRs ####### suck. Without Maclin they need 2 more WRs for this offense. Especially when they refuse to get Ertz involved and Celek has crossed over to sucking into his retirement days.

 

[Late225]

What herb said. Outside of Desean the WRs ####### suck. Without Maclin they need 2 more WRs for this offense. Especially when they refuse to get Ertz involved and Celek has crossed over to sucking into his retirement days.

I think they need to give Maehl a shot with the ones this week. I never liked Cooper and I think a quick and shifty wide receiver could do some damage in this offense.

 

[Late225]

Reuben Frank ‏@RoobCSNThere are 38 WRs who have started all 4 games this year. Of the 38, Riley Cooper has fewest catches (8) & second-fewest receiving yds (93).

 

[ShaHBucks]

Cooper doesn't work well with Vick. Make him the scapegoat if you want.

 

[unckeyherb]

Its not really scapegoating if its true. Dude can't get separation and doesn't even use his size well

 

[scratcher]

Honestly, I can't say I'm for or against Vick. However, from what I saw yesterday, Vick played well enough with what he was given. He fit some throws in tight windows and was not helped with drops and zero separation.

Kelly needs to get creative to hide the liability that is Riley Cooper.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Its not really scapegoating if its true. Dude can't get separation and doesn't even use his size well

If he was playing with Manning he'd be something like Decker. He 6'3 220 with hands, that means he's always open. He needs a QB that can put the ball in spots with good timing and anticipation.I guess you missed his TD this season or the ones vs Dal last season if you think he can't use his size.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Its not really scapegoating if its true. Dude can't get separation and doesn't even use his size well

If he was playing with Manning he'd be something like Decker. He 6'3 220 with hands, that means he's always open. He needs a QB that can put the ball in spots with good timing and anticipation.I guess you missed his TD this season or the ones vs Dal last season if you think he can't use his size.

I tend to agree with Shahbucks on this one. Vick throws if your open, he doesn't throw you open.

 

[unckeyherb]

Sorry but I disagree with the comparison. Cooper does not use his size nearly as well as Decker. Cooper just looks like he's uncoordinated to me. He was on the bubble to make the team this year and probably would not have, had maclin not gone down. Lets not make him out to be some huge target that is being held back by vick not forcing it to him.

 

[Ash]

Sorry but I disagree with the comparison. Cooper does not use his size nearly as well as Decker. Cooper just looks like he's uncoordinated to me. He was on the bubble to make the team this year and probably would not have, had maclin not gone down. Lets not make him out to be some huge target that is being held back by vick not forcing it to him.

Agree with most of these comments on Cooper. He just isn't athletic enough to separate, although I do think he has good hands and does play to his size he just can't get open. The comment that he doesn't work well with Vick is spot on, as Vick needs to see a guy open to throw to him. Another QB (Eli is a good example) might be able to throw him open with back shoulder or high balls but that's just not Vick's game.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

@RoobCSN: The Eagles are on pace to gain the 3rd-most yards in NFL history [7,384] and to allow the 2nd-most yards in NFL history [7,148].

 

[ShaHBucks]

Sorry but I disagree with the comparison. Cooper does not use his size nearly as well as Decker. Cooper just looks like he's uncoordinated to me. He was on the bubble to make the team this year and probably would not have, had maclin not gone down. Lets not make him out to be some huge target that is being held back by vick not forcing it to him.

Whelp, you'll see when Foles is under center via injuries or boo birds. Don't write Cooper off until he can actually work with someone that can utilize his skills. He'll be moving the chains and being hit with the ball in stride, not consintly breaking routs to get open while Vick is holding the football.I don't have the time to do comps to defend Coopers athleticism. Off top of my head he stacks up well with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz. Big recievers with big hands and 4.5 speed pretty much. Any of those guys ever covered and still make catches? Do their QBs throw them open or utilize timing routs?

I never believed he was on the bubble, nor does it matter now. If he was just some 4th-5th string talentless reciever to the Eagles he would have been gone after the comments he made. One(maybe two people lol) person on TV talks down Cooper and now everyone is regurgitating the same thing smh. Coop isn't the proplem.

Vick is still not hitting benchmarks I like to see from good QBs like 60% comp, multi-TD games or 300+ yard games. Good-great QBs do that reguardless of who is around them. KC and Den have nice defenses and had the advantage of having tape on our offense(even Was in the 2nd half week 1). Vick has been HORRIBLE in those scenarios. The only thing he isn't doing, like usual, is throwing picks. That alone might be enough to get us around .500 or better in the next 5 games the way things are shaking. We'll see what happends.

 

[JuniorNB]

Sorry but I disagree with the comparison. Cooper does not use his size nearly as well as Decker. Cooper just looks like he's uncoordinated to me. He was on the bubble to make the team this year and probably would not have, had maclin not gone down. Lets not make him out to be some huge target that is being held back by vick not forcing it to him.

I don't have the time to do comps to defend Coopers athleticism. Off top of my head he stacks up well with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz. Big recievers with big hands and 4.5 speed pretty much. Any of those guys ever covered and still make catches? Do their QBs throw them open or utilize timing routs?

 

[delusional]

I think if Cooper had legit coaching that was able to coach him up since he came into the league, he would play better. Sadly that wasnt here the past few seasons. He was that "red zone target" we all called for because of his size. Which I have no problem with honestly. I could see him fitting that role. Problem is the depth at WR has been so bad all teams have to do is shut down Jackson and thats it. There goes the passing game. Celeks hands have turned to stone & gets no separation. Ertz is a rookie but hope they start to put him into Celeks role more and more ( which means his blocking has to imrpove ) . Avant is nothing more then a slow slot WR with good hands. Which works if your 1 & 2 WR are producing & the running game is solid ( it is but read below )

They pretty much have to set the run game in motion in order for the passing game to work vs above average defenses because of the lack of talent at WR. That means steady doses McCoy Brown & Polk. Which isn't bad at all...if you had a defense...something the Eagles do NOT have. Its hard to set the run game when you are down 14.

Man I wish they would have at least kept DRC. Said it last season that I wouldn't be surprised to see him & Nnamdi go and have good seasons this year. The whole coaching enviroment the past few seasons was just toxic.

I was not keen on the Davis hiring. I don't know much about him but know he had a bad track record. I know he doesn't have any talent really on defense so there isn't much he can do but rewatching some of the games...man makes you wonder wtf he was looking at out there. I don't see him being here next season.

It is so obvious how the past few seasons of Reid & that coaching staff has hurt this organization. Yet media will continue to suck him off & ignore him even though he is & has been the elephant in the room.

Overall majority of us knew this was not going to be a good season, that the defense was going to be the main downfall. That it was going to take at least 2 or 3 seasons to correct this roster. The only reason you are seeing some of the players on this team still is because well they have to field 11 guys on offense and defense lol.

Sadly with how stupid the sheep can be in philly with extreme overreactions, it is going to look like a disaster to outsiders.

 

[delusional]

O, there are still people blaming Vick. How flipping sad is that lol.

 

[Rubi]

Philly Homers,any news about McCoy? They said he had the wind knocked out of him,then there was a whisper on FBG about a possible rib injury,I haven't seen or heard anymore since Monday morning. I'm hoping no news is good news,any Homers hear anything. thnks.

 

[unckeyherb]

Sorry but I disagree with the comparison. Cooper does not use his size nearly as well as Decker. Cooper just looks like he's uncoordinated to me. He was on the bubble to make the team this year and probably would not have, had maclin not gone down. Lets not make him out to be some huge target that is being held back by vick not forcing it to him.

Whelp, you'll see when Foles is under center via injuries or boo birds. Don't write Cooper off until he can actually work with someone that can utilize his skills. He'll be moving the chains and being hit with the ball in stride, not consintly breaking routs to get open while Vick is holding the football.I don't have the time to do comps to defend Coopers athleticism. Off top of my head he stacks up well with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz. Big recievers with big hands and 4.5 speed pretty much. Any of those guys ever covered and still make catches? Do their QBs throw them open or utilize timing routs?

I never believed he was on the bubble, nor does it matter now. If he was just some 4th-5th string talentless reciever to the Eagles he would have been gone after the comments he made. One(maybe two people lol) person on TV talks down Cooper and now everyone is regurgitating the same thing smh. Coop isn't the proplem.

Vick is still not hitting benchmarks I like to see from good QBs like 60% comp, multi-TD games or 300+ yard games. Good-great QBs do that reguardless of who is around them. KC and Den have nice defenses and had the advantage of having tape on our offense(even Was in the 2nd half week 1). Vick has been HORRIBLE in those scenarios. The only thing he isn't doing, like usual, is throwing picks. That alone might be enough to get us around .500 or better in the next 5 games the way things are shaking. We'll see what happends.

You can smh all you want-I don't know what you mean by 1 person talking down on cooper. A lot of people think he is not a wr2 or even 3 and pointed out that the decision to keep him solely boiled down to the lack of other options at WR. Fitz? Come on man, you can't be serious.

Cooper isn't the problem, but he is representative of the problem. When Riley cooper is your #2 WR That is a problem. I don't care if you think he comps out to fitz or Nelson or whoever else. That is just not correct. Last year he was a bench player behind Desean, Maclin and Avant. He leapfrogged Avant (wow) and Maclin is not playing. So he is by default a WR2 due to CIRCUMSTANCE not talent. And the rest of the WR corps goes down from there.

So like I said in my original point, until they have a complement to Desean it's very simple to defend these WRs and negate Desean from the equation. Switching to Foles won't change that, because that's not Mike Vicks fault.

 

[unckeyherb]

Philly Homers,any news about McCoy? They said he had the wind knocked out of him,then there was a whisper on FBG about a possible rib injury,I haven't seen or heard anymore since Monday morning. I'm hoping no news is good news,any Homers hear anything. thnks.

He was on the radio last night joking with Ike Reese i think, that the Denver game was the first time he ever needed oxygen before. I think the high altitude was the factor there, nothing more.

 

[Long Ball Larry]

I was not keen on the Davis hiring. I don't know much about him but know he had a bad track record. I know he doesn't have any talent really on defense so there isn't much he can do but rewatching some of the games...man makes you wonder wtf he was looking at out there. I don't see him being here next season.

Which games are you talking about?

KC they did pretty well, though obviously Smith is limited.

Wash is hard to get a read on since the game was so crazy.

SD was definitely not good.

I'm willing to give him a pass against Manning.

The secondary is god awful. Everyone knows that. I'm honestly not sure how much more could be expected of him at this point.

 

[ShaHBucks]

I just watched all-22 of the 1st half and only watched Cooper.

(8:59) cooper beats his man inside, the defender actually falls when Coop made his cut. Vick Scrambles for 13 yards.

(6:10) he boxes his man out on a curl. Vick hits Celek wide open but he dropped it. Typical. Catch would have lead to 1st and goal.

2q (15:00) short middle catch for 10 yards.

(5:05) beat his man on a comeback near the sideline. Snatched the ball and kept his feet inbounds for 15 yards.

(3:15) Cooper is one one one on the outside. Vick dumps it to Polk for 13 yards. We're being played man to man with one S deep. The middle is crowded to stop the quick passes and zone reads.

The rest of the plays Cooper is either blocking or being used as a decoy to space out the field opposite of the play side. He's doing his job. The offense moves. Vick just struggles in the redzone. Not much more to say, nor is this some new issue with Vick. The only passing TD in the redzone this year went to______? You guessed it, Riley fkn Cooper vs SD. The rest of them are from 20+. I don't mind loosing, but giving the style/pace/hype of the offense we should be scoring TDs. All of the yards the O accumulates amounts to nothing.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Sorry but I disagree with the comparison. Cooper does not use his size nearly as well as Decker. Cooper just looks like he's uncoordinated to me. He was on the bubble to make the team this year and probably would not have, had maclin not gone down. Lets not make him out to be some huge target that is being held back by vick not forcing it to him.

Whelp, you'll see when Foles is under center via injuries or boo birds. Don't write Cooper off until he can actually work with someone that can utilize his skills. He'll be moving the chains and being hit with the ball in stride, not consintly breaking routs to get open while Vick is holding the football.I don't have the time to do comps to defend Coopers athleticism. Off top of my head he stacks up well with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz. Big recievers with big hands and 4.5 speed pretty much. Any of those guys ever covered and still make catches? Do their QBs throw them open or utilize timing routs?

I never believed he was on the bubble, nor does it matter now. If he was just some 4th-5th string talentless reciever to the Eagles he would have been gone after the comments he made. One(maybe two people lol) person on TV talks down Cooper and now everyone is regurgitating the same thing smh. Coop isn't the proplem.

Vick is still not hitting benchmarks I like to see from good QBs like 60% comp, multi-TD games or 300+ yard games. Good-great QBs do that reguardless of who is around them. KC and Den have nice defenses and had the advantage of having tape on our offense(even Was in the 2nd half week 1). Vick has been HORRIBLE in those scenarios. The only thing he isn't doing, like usual, is throwing picks. That alone might be enough to get us around .500 or better in the next 5 games the way things are shaking. We'll see what happends.

You can smh all you want-I don't know what you mean by 1 person talking down on cooper. A lot of people think he is not a wr2 or even 3 and pointed out that the decision to keep him solely boiled down to the lack of other options at WR. Fitz? Come on man, you can't be serious. Cooper isn't the problem, but he is representative of the problem. When Riley cooper is your #2 WR That is a problem. I don't care if you think he comps out to fitz or Nelson or whoever else. That is just not correct. Last year he was a bench player behind Desean, Maclin and Avant. He leapfrogged Avant (wow) and Maclin is not playing. So he is by default a WR2 due to CIRCUMSTANCE not talent. And the rest of the WR corps goes down from there.

So like I said in my original point, until they have a complement to Desean it's very simple to defend these WRs and negate Desean from the equation. Switching to Foles won't change that, because that's not Mike Vicks fault.

Someone said he wasn't a athlete. I said athletically, based to combines numbers, he's similar to the guys I mentioned. Look it up for yourself.And he didn't leapfrog Avant. He's been the backup on the outside for 2-3 years now with Avant sticking in the slot.

 

[ShaHBucks]

How many time on the fbg podcast did you heard Cecil say Decker can't get seperation?

 

[unckeyherb]

I just watched all-22 of the 1st half and only watched Cooper.

(8:59) cooper beats his man inside, the defender actually falls when Coop made his cut. Vick Scrambles for 13 yards.

(6:10) he boxes his man out on a curl. Vick hits Celek wide open but he dropped it. Typical. Catch would have lead to 1st and goal.

2q (15:00) short middle catch for 10 yards.

(5:05) beat his man on a comeback near the sideline. Snatched the ball and kept his feet inbounds for 15 yards.

(3:15) Cooper is one one one on the outside. Vick dumps it to Polk for 13 yards. We're being played man to man with one S deep. The middle is crowded to stop the quick passes and zone reads.

The rest of the plays Cooper is either blocking or being used as a decoy to space out the field opposite of the play side. He's doing his job. The offense moves. Vick just struggles in the redzone. Not much more to say, nor is this some new issue with Vick. The only passing TD in the redzone this year went to______? You guessed it, Riley fkn Cooper vs SD. The rest of them are from 20+. I don't mind loosing, but giving the style/pace/hype of the offense we should be scoring TDs. All of the yards the O accumulates amounts to nothing.

So in all of these, it would appear, Vick made the right call. When Cooper actually got separation, Vick hit him or he hit another open option in Polk and Celek. The rest of the time Cooper is blocking. That's your Fitz-like WR 2. A downfield blocker. I think we are debating the wrong things. You want to believe that Cooper is really good and Vick is just bad. I do not agree, but the bigger picture here is that Cooper (as good or bad as you or I think he is) is not a valid WR2 and I would kill to have any of the comps you listed in lieu of him. My guess is you would too.. THIS is representative of a weak WR corps, which was my point-not just being down on Riley Cooper, but being down on him being #2 on the depth chart.

I agree 100% with the bolded.

 

[Rick James]

I just watched all-22 of the 1st half and only watched Cooper.

(8:59) cooper beats his man inside, the defender actually falls when Coop made his cut. Vick Scrambles for 13 yards.

(6:10) he boxes his man out on a curl. Vick hits Celek wide open but he dropped it. Typical. Catch would have lead to 1st and goal.

2q (15:00) short middle catch for 10 yards.

(5:05) beat his man on a comeback near the sideline. Snatched the ball and kept his feet inbounds for 15 yards.

(3:15) Cooper is one one one on the outside. Vick dumps it to Polk for 13 yards. We're being played man to man with one S deep. The middle is crowded to stop the quick passes and zone reads.

The rest of the plays Cooper is either blocking or being used as a decoy to space out the field opposite of the play side. He's doing his job. The offense moves. Vick just struggles in the redzone. Not much more to say, nor is this some new issue with Vick. The only passing TD in the redzone this year went to______? You guessed it, Riley fkn Cooper vs SD. The rest of them are from 20+. I don't mind loosing, but giving the style/pace/hype of the offense we should be scoring TDs. All of the yards the O accumulates amounts to nothing.

So in all of these, it would appear, Vick made the right call. When Cooper actually got separation, Vick hit him or he hit another open option in Polk and Celek. The rest of the time Cooper is blocking. That's your Fitz-like WR 2. A downfield blocker. I think we are debating the wrong things. You want to believe that Cooper is really good and Vick is just bad. I do not agree, but the bigger picture here is that Cooper (as good or bad as you or I think he is) is not a valid WR2 and I would kill to have any of the comps you listed in lieu of him. My guess is you would too.. THIS is representative of a weak WR corps, which was my point-not just being down on Riley Cooper, but being down on him being #2 on the depth chart.

I agree 100% with the bolded.

Right. Any GM in the league would deal Cooper straight-up for Fitz in a heartbeat if he could. Same for Decker, Nelson, etc. Crazy comparison by ShaHBucks.

 

[dhockster]

I think if Cooper had legit coaching that was able to coach him up since he came into the league, he would play better. Sadly that wasnt here the past few seasons. He was that "red zone target" we all called for because of his size. Which I have no problem with honestly. I could see him fitting that role. Problem is the depth at WR has been so bad all teams have to do is shut down Jackson and thats it. There goes the passing game. Celeks hands have turned to stone & gets no separation. Ertz is a rookie but hope they start to put him into Celeks role more and more ( which means his blocking has to imrpove ) . Avant is nothing more then a slow slot WR with good hands. Which works if your 1 & 2 WR are producing & the running game is solid ( it is but read below )

They pretty much have to set the run game in motion in order for the passing game to work vs above average defenses because of the lack of talent at WR. That means steady doses McCoy Brown & Polk. Which isn't bad at all...if you had a defense...something the Eagles do NOT have. Its hard to set the run game when you are down 14.

Man I wish they would have at least kept DRC. Said it last season that I wouldn't be surprised to see him & Nnamdi go and have good seasons this year. The whole coaching enviroment the past few seasons was just toxic.

I was not keen on the Davis hiring. I don't know much about him but know he had a bad track record. I know he doesn't have any talent really on defense so there isn't much he can do but rewatching some of the games...man makes you wonder wtf he was looking at out there. I don't see him being here next season.

It is so obvious how the past few seasons of Reid & that coaching staff has hurt this organization. Yet media will continue to suck him off & ignore him even though he is & has been the elephant in the room.

Overall majority of us knew this was not going to be a good season, that the defense was going to be the main downfall. That it was going to take at least 2 or 3 seasons to correct this roster. The only reason you are seeing some of the players on this team still is because well they have to field 11 guys on offense and defense lol.

Sadly with how stupid the sheep can be in philly with extreme overreactions, it is going to look like a disaster to outsiders.

We get it, Delusional. You did not like Andy Reid. He is gone now. Move on.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

I just watched all-22 of the 1st half and only watched Cooper.

(8:59) cooper beats his man inside, the defender actually falls when Coop made his cut. Vick Scrambles for 13 yards.

(6:10) he boxes his man out on a curl. Vick hits Celek wide open but he dropped it. Typical. Catch would have lead to 1st and goal.

2q (15:00) short middle catch for 10 yards.

(5:05) beat his man on a comeback near the sideline. Snatched the ball and kept his feet inbounds for 15 yards.

(3:15) Cooper is one one one on the outside. Vick dumps it to Polk for 13 yards. We're being played man to man with one S deep. The middle is crowded to stop the quick passes and zone reads.

The rest of the plays Cooper is either blocking or being used as a decoy to space out the field opposite of the play side. He's doing his job. The offense moves. Vick just struggles in the redzone. Not much more to say, nor is this some new issue with Vick. The only passing TD in the redzone this year went to______? You guessed it, Riley fkn Cooper vs SD. The rest of them are from 20+. I don't mind loosing, but giving the style/pace/hype of the offense we should be scoring TDs. All of the yards the O accumulates amounts to nothing.

So in all of these, it would appear, Vick made the right call. When Cooper actually got separation, Vick hit him or he hit another open option in Polk and Celek. The rest of the time Cooper is blocking. That's your Fitz-like WR 2. A downfield blocker. I think we are debating the wrong things. You want to believe that Cooper is really good and Vick is just bad. I do not agree, but the bigger picture here is that Cooper (as good or bad as you or I think he is) is not a valid WR2 and I would kill to have any of the comps you listed in lieu of him. My guess is you would too.. THIS is representative of a weak WR corps, which was my point-not just being down on Riley Cooper, but being down on him being #2 on the depth chart.

I agree 100% with the bolded.

Right. Any GM in the league would deal Cooper straight-up for Fitz in a heartbeat if he could. Same for Decker, Nelson, etc. Crazy comparison by ShaHBucks.

With all due respect to the both of you the below really isnt that hard to comprehend:

I don't have the time to do comps to defend Coopers athleticism. Off top of my head he stacks up well with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz. Big recievers with big hands and 4.5 speed pretty much. Any of those guys ever covered and still make catches?

 

[Long Ball Larry]

I think if Cooper had legit coaching that was able to coach him up since he came into the league, he would play better. Sadly that wasnt here the past few seasons. He was that "red zone target" we all called for because of his size. Which I have no problem with honestly. I could see him fitting that role. Problem is the depth at WR has been so bad all teams have to do is shut down Jackson and thats it. There goes the passing game. Celeks hands have turned to stone & gets no separation. Ertz is a rookie but hope they start to put him into Celeks role more and more ( which means his blocking has to imrpove ) . Avant is nothing more then a slow slot WR with good hands. Which works if your 1 & 2 WR are producing & the running game is solid ( it is but read below )

They pretty much have to set the run game in motion in order for the passing game to work vs above average defenses because of the lack of talent at WR. That means steady doses McCoy Brown & Polk. Which isn't bad at all...if you had a defense...something the Eagles do NOT have. Its hard to set the run game when you are down 14.

Man I wish they would have at least kept DRC. Said it last season that I wouldn't be surprised to see him & Nnamdi go and have good seasons this year. The whole coaching enviroment the past few seasons was just toxic.

I was not keen on the Davis hiring. I don't know much about him but know he had a bad track record. I know he doesn't have any talent really on defense so there isn't much he can do but rewatching some of the games...man makes you wonder wtf he was looking at out there. I don't see him being here next season.

It is so obvious how the past few seasons of Reid & that coaching staff has hurt this organization. Yet media will continue to suck him off & ignore him even though he is & has been the elephant in the room.

Overall majority of us knew this was not going to be a good season, that the defense was going to be the main downfall. That it was going to take at least 2 or 3 seasons to correct this roster. The only reason you are seeing some of the players on this team still is because well they have to field 11 guys on offense and defense lol.

Sadly with how stupid the sheep can be in philly with extreme overreactions, it is going to look like a disaster to outsiders.

We get it, Delusional. You did not like Andy Reid. He is gone now. Move on.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, stop the clock. What?!

 

[unckeyherb]

I just watched all-22 of the 1st half and only watched Cooper.

(8:59) cooper beats his man inside, the defender actually falls when Coop made his cut. Vick Scrambles for 13 yards.

(6:10) he boxes his man out on a curl. Vick hits Celek wide open but he dropped it. Typical. Catch would have lead to 1st and goal.

2q (15:00) short middle catch for 10 yards.

(5:05) beat his man on a comeback near the sideline. Snatched the ball and kept his feet inbounds for 15 yards.

(3:15) Cooper is one one one on the outside. Vick dumps it to Polk for 13 yards. We're being played man to man with one S deep. The middle is crowded to stop the quick passes and zone reads.

The rest of the plays Cooper is either blocking or being used as a decoy to space out the field opposite of the play side. He's doing his job. The offense moves. Vick just struggles in the redzone. Not much more to say, nor is this some new issue with Vick. The only passing TD in the redzone this year went to______? You guessed it, Riley fkn Cooper vs SD. The rest of them are from 20+. I don't mind loosing, but giving the style/pace/hype of the offense we should be scoring TDs. All of the yards the O accumulates amounts to nothing.

So in all of these, it would appear, Vick made the right call. When Cooper actually got separation, Vick hit him or he hit another open option in Polk and Celek. The rest of the time Cooper is blocking. That's your Fitz-like WR 2. A downfield blocker. I think we are debating the wrong things. You want to believe that Cooper is really good and Vick is just bad. I do not agree, but the bigger picture here is that Cooper (as good or bad as you or I think he is) is not a valid WR2 and I would kill to have any of the comps you listed in lieu of him. My guess is you would too.. THIS is representative of a weak WR corps, which was my point-not just being down on Riley Cooper, but being down on him being #2 on the depth chart.

I agree 100% with the bolded.

Right. Any GM in the league would deal Cooper straight-up for Fitz in a heartbeat if he could. Same for Decker, Nelson, etc. Crazy comparison by ShaHBucks.

With all due respect to the both of you the below really isnt that hard to comprehend:

I don't have the time to do comps to defend Coopers athleticism. Off top of my head he stacks up well with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz. Big recievers with big hands and 4.5 speed pretty much. Any of those guys ever covered and still make catches?

not sure your point. This all started when I responded to your question, stating that he, along with every other WR did not seem to get much separation and it was for that reason that Vick was holding the ball so long.

Since then its been a bunch of meandering comparisons from "He would be Eric Decker in Denver", to "he stacks up well with with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz", to "the rest of the plays he's blocking. He's doing his job".. Shahbucks has such a hardon to prove how good Cooper is that he went back to watch only Cooper's routes and then posted an outline of the plays which prove he gets some separation and in those cases-VICK THROWS TO HIM! I'm just not sure of the point of any of this anymore.

All of this in response to my assertion that Cooper is not really that good at getting separation and using his size, which is still the truth. Just admit that the comparison to Fitz and the like was a bad one, and that maybe Cooper is not a WR2 and that his deficiencies are representative of a larger lack of legitimate WRs on this team.

Whats so hard to comprehend about that?

 

[Late225]

I just watched all-22 of the 1st half and only watched Cooper.

(8:59) cooper beats his man inside, the defender actually falls when Coop made his cut. Vick Scrambles for 13 yards.

(6:10) he boxes his man out on a curl. Vick hits Celek wide open but he dropped it. Typical. Catch would have lead to 1st and goal.

2q (15:00) short middle catch for 10 yards.

(5:05) beat his man on a comeback near the sideline. Snatched the ball and kept his feet inbounds for 15 yards.

(3:15) Cooper is one one one on the outside. Vick dumps it to Polk for 13 yards. We're being played man to man with one S deep. The middle is crowded to stop the quick passes and zone reads.

The rest of the plays Cooper is either blocking or being used as a decoy to space out the field opposite of the play side. He's doing his job. The offense moves. Vick just struggles in the redzone. Not much more to say, nor is this some new issue with Vick. The only passing TD in the redzone this year went to______? You guessed it, Riley fkn Cooper vs SD. The rest of them are from 20+. I don't mind loosing, but giving the style/pace/hype of the offense we should be scoring TDs. All of the yards the O accumulates amounts to nothing.

So in all of these, it would appear, Vick made the right call. When Cooper actually got separation, Vick hit him or he hit another open option in Polk and Celek. The rest of the time Cooper is blocking. That's your Fitz-like WR 2. A downfield blocker. I think we are debating the wrong things. You want to believe that Cooper is really good and Vick is just bad. I do not agree, but the bigger picture here is that Cooper (as good or bad as you or I think he is) is not a valid WR2 and I would kill to have any of the comps you listed in lieu of him. My guess is you would too.. THIS is representative of a weak WR corps, which was my point-not just being down on Riley Cooper, but being down on him being #2 on the depth chart.

I agree 100% with the bolded.

Right. Any GM in the league would deal Cooper straight-up for Fitz in a heartbeat if he could. Same for Decker, Nelson, etc. Crazy comparison by ShaHBucks.

With all due respect to the both of you the below really isnt that hard to comprehend:

I don't have the time to do comps to defend Coopers athleticism. Off top of my head he stacks up well with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz. Big recievers with big hands and 4.5 speed pretty much. Any of those guys ever covered and still make catches?

not sure your point. This all started when I responded to your question, stating that he, along with every other WR did not seem to get much separation and it was for that reason that Vick was holding the ball so long.

Since then its been a bunch of meandering comparisons from "He would be Eric Decker in Denver", to "he stacks up well with with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz", to "the rest of the plays he's blocking. He's doing his job".. Shahbucks has such a hardon to prove how good Cooper is that he went back to watch only Cooper's routes and then posted an outline of the plays which prove he gets some separation and in those cases-VICK THROWS TO HIM! I'm just not sure of the point of any of this anymore.

All of this in response to my assertion that Cooper is not really that good at getting separation and using his size, which is still the truth. Just admit that the comparison to Fitz and the like was a bad one, and that maybe Cooper is not a WR2 and that his deficiencies are representative of a larger lack of legitimate WRs on this team.

Whats so hard to comprehend about that?

I don't consider myself a Vick basher. I hope whoever the coaches decide starts plays well and helps the team win games. Based on analysis I recently heard, Vick isn't a quarterback that will often throw to a guy without separation. Cooper is a guy that could probably make catches without separation because of his size, but Vick doesn't usually make those throws.

I don't think that's necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, but if Vick isn't going to make these throws, and if Cooper isn't going to get better separation, why leave him in? I don't think they're a good match playing with each other. They need to either get a shiftier wide receiver in there that will get open enough for Vick to make the throw, or they need to get a quarterback that will throw it to Cooper without separation. I don't think it makes sense for both to be on the field at the same time in 2WR sets.

 

[Late225]

I just watched all-22 of the 1st half and only watched Cooper.

(8:59) cooper beats his man inside, the defender actually falls when Coop made his cut. Vick Scrambles for 13 yards.

(6:10) he boxes his man out on a curl. Vick hits Celek wide open but he dropped it. Typical. Catch would have lead to 1st and goal.

2q (15:00) short middle catch for 10 yards.

(5:05) beat his man on a comeback near the sideline. Snatched the ball and kept his feet inbounds for 15 yards.

(3:15) Cooper is one one one on the outside. Vick dumps it to Polk for 13 yards. We're being played man to man with one S deep. The middle is crowded to stop the quick passes and zone reads.

The rest of the plays Cooper is either blocking or being used as a decoy to space out the field opposite of the play side. He's doing his job. The offense moves. Vick just struggles in the redzone. Not much more to say, nor is this some new issue with Vick. The only passing TD in the redzone this year went to______? You guessed it, Riley fkn Cooper vs SD. The rest of them are from 20+. I don't mind loosing, but giving the style/pace/hype of the offense we should be scoring TDs. All of the yards the O accumulates amounts to nothing.

So in all of these, it would appear, Vick made the right call. When Cooper actually got separation, Vick hit him or he hit another open option in Polk and Celek. The rest of the time Cooper is blocking. That's your Fitz-like WR 2. A downfield blocker. I think we are debating the wrong things. You want to believe that Cooper is really good and Vick is just bad. I do not agree, but the bigger picture here is that Cooper (as good or bad as you or I think he is) is not a valid WR2 and I would kill to have any of the comps you listed in lieu of him. My guess is you would too.. THIS is representative of a weak WR corps, which was my point-not just being down on Riley Cooper, but being down on him being #2 on the depth chart.

I agree 100% with the bolded.

Right. Any GM in the league would deal Cooper straight-up for Fitz in a heartbeat if he could. Same for Decker, Nelson, etc. Crazy comparison by ShaHBucks.

With all due respect to the both of you the below really isnt that hard to comprehend:

I don't have the time to do comps to defend Coopers athleticism. Off top of my head he stacks up well with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz. Big recievers with big hands and 4.5 speed pretty much. Any of those guys ever covered and still make catches?

not sure your point. This all started when I responded to your question, stating that he, along with every other WR did not seem to get much separation and it was for that reason that Vick was holding the ball so long.

Since then its been a bunch of meandering comparisons from "He would be Eric Decker in Denver", to "he stacks up well with with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz", to "the rest of the plays he's blocking. He's doing his job".. Shahbucks has such a hardon to prove how good Cooper is that he went back to watch only Cooper's routes and then posted an outline of the plays which prove he gets some separation and in those cases-VICK THROWS TO HIM! I'm just not sure of the point of any of this anymore.

All of this in response to my assertion that Cooper is not really that good at getting separation and using his size, which is still the truth. Just admit that the comparison to Fitz and the like was a bad one, and that maybe Cooper is not a WR2 and that his deficiencies are representative of a larger lack of legitimate WRs on this team.

Whats so hard to comprehend about that?

I think the issue is that he compared Cooper to Fitz's measurables. You believe he is comparing Cooper and Fitz's talent. You are each arguing different things.

 

[ShaHBucks]

I just watched all-22 of the 1st half and only watched Cooper.

(8:59) cooper beats his man inside, the defender actually falls when Coop made his cut. Vick Scrambles for 13 yards.

(6:10) he boxes his man out on a curl. Vick hits Celek wide open but he dropped it. Typical. Catch would have lead to 1st and goal.

2q (15:00) short middle catch for 10 yards.

(5:05) beat his man on a comeback near the sideline. Snatched the ball and kept his feet inbounds for 15 yards.

(3:15) Cooper is one one one on the outside. Vick dumps it to Polk for 13 yards. We're being played man to man with one S deep. The middle is crowded to stop the quick passes and zone reads.

The rest of the plays Cooper is either blocking or being used as a decoy to space out the field opposite of the play side. He's doing his job. The offense moves. Vick just struggles in the redzone. Not much more to say, nor is this some new issue with Vick. The only passing TD in the redzone this year went to______? You guessed it, Riley fkn Cooper vs SD. The rest of them are from 20+. I don't mind loosing, but giving the style/pace/hype of the offense we should be scoring TDs. All of the yards the O accumulates amounts to nothing.

So in all of these, it would appear, Vick made the right call. When Cooper actually got separation, Vick hit him or he hit another open option in Polk and Celek. The rest of the time Cooper is blocking. That's your Fitz-like WR 2. A downfield blocker. I think we are debating the wrong things. You want to believe that Cooper is really good and Vick is just bad. I do not agree, but the bigger picture here is that Cooper (as good or bad as you or I think he is) is not a valid WR2 and I would kill to have any of the comps you listed in lieu of him. My guess is you would too.. THIS is representative of a weak WR corps, which was my point-not just being down on Riley Cooper, but being down on him being #2 on the depth chart.I agree 100% with the bolded.

Right. Any GM in the league would deal Cooper straight-up for Fitz in a heartbeat if he could. Same for Decker, Nelson, etc. Crazy comparison by ShaHBucks.

With all due respect to the both of you the below really isnt that hard to comprehend:

I don't have the time to do comps to defend Coopers athleticism. Off top of my head he stacks up well with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz. Big recievers with big hands and 4.5 speed pretty much. Any of those guys ever covered and still make catches?

not sure your point. This all started when I responded to your question, stating that he, along with every other WR did not seem to get much separation and it was for that reason that Vick was holding the ball so long.Since then its been a bunch of meandering comparisons from "He would be Eric Decker in Denver", to "he stacks up well with with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz", to "the rest of the plays he's blocking. He's doing his job".. Shahbucks has such a hardon to prove how good Cooper is that he went back to watch only Cooper's routes and then posted an outline of the plays which prove he gets some separation and in those cases-VICK THROWS TO HIM! I'm just not sure of the point of any of this anymore.

All of this in response to my assertion that Cooper is not really that good at getting separation and using his size, which is still the truth. Just admit that the comparison to Fitz and the like was a bad one, and that maybe Cooper is not a WR2 and that his deficiencies are representative of a larger lack of legitimate WRs on this team.

Whats so hard to comprehend about that?

This is the NFL. The smallest windows are considered good "separation" to Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady ect... They read the defense pre/post snap and deliver the ball quickly and accurately. On the one-on-one play I outlined, Aaron Rodger makes that throw 99.9% of the time to Jordy's back shoulder or ahead of him. Peyton gave Decker a chance a few time on the same read Sunday. One would have been a TD but Peyton overthrew Decker.

I don't think you understand the use of comps. Some use comparables to make accurate predictions about paticular players with particular traits in paticular situations for future references. How much Eric Decker were you buying with Tebow? I remember how much he was bashed on 1st Take just to defend Tebow. Now everyone acts like he was some can't miss all along with Manning at the helm. Cooper is not in a good situation with Vick at QB as far as recent history goes. He does have traits that could translate into good production even if its just 70-80% of the guys I mentioned. Nick Foles could possibly alter everyones thinking about Cooper being a smarter and more accurate QB than Vick.

 

[Ash]

Michael Vick - One Play In Review.

I just started watching the All-22 and found a play that typifies my frustrations with Vick. There's an assumption that when Vick runs, it's because he has to. It's still early in the season, but to me Vick is showing signs of regressing in the last two games to the kind of one read, run QB he was in Atlanta.

The play is 1st and 10 from the 29 with 8:59 left in the 1st. Here's the Pre Snap look.

They've lined up 3 over the bunch formation on the right side, with a safety in centrefield. Cooper has press coverage on his own on the left. McCoy released to the left underneath Cooper.

Here's the first point at which Vick could have released the ball. Cooper has gotten open (partly due to the DB slipping) to the inside. Vick holds on.

At this point, almost everybody is open, although Celek over the middle and Jackson deep right have underneath defenders potentially in the passing lanes, so maybe not. Cooper, McCoy and Avant in the right flat are all available.

Vick doesn't take those options though, and rolls left instead. Well, maybe he had to because of a protection breakdown.

Here's the initial pocket. Nice and clean, no problems there. Here it is after about 2.5 seconds. And finally after over 4.5 seconds, just before Vick runs. There have been issues with protections, I'm not saying the line has been perfect but they did as good a job on this play as anyone could ask, holding a 4 man rush with 5 man protection for almost 5 seconds. Vick missed multiple open receivers and took off running anyway.

Teams are wising up to the value of stopping Jackson, here's a coverage the Broncos ran earlier in the game. Centrefield safety, in addition to one parked over Jackson, who bracketed him with the corner. LBs picked up the TE and RB as they released to that side.

I'll post more thoughts as I go through the rest of the game, particularly the 2nd half.

 

[ShaHBucks]

Michael Vick - One Play In Review.

I just started watching the All-22 and found a play that typifies my frustrations with Vick. There's an assumption that when Vick runs, it's because he has to. It's still early in the season, but to me Vick is showing signs of regressing in the last two games to the kind of one read, run QB he was in Atlanta.

The play is 1st and 10 from the 29 with 8:59 left in the 1st. Here's the Pre Snap look.

They've lined up 3 over the bunch formation on the right side, with a safety in centrefield. Cooper has press coverage on his own on the left. McCoy released to the left underneath Cooper.

Here's the first point at which Vick could have released the ball. Cooper has gotten open (partly due to the DB slipping) to the inside. Vick holds on.

At this point, almost everybody is open, although Celek over the middle and Jackson deep right have underneath defenders potentially in the passing lanes, so maybe not. Cooper, McCoy and Avant in the right flat are all available.

Vick doesn't take those options though, and rolls left instead. Well, maybe he had to because of a protection breakdown.

Here's the initial pocket. Nice and clean, no problems there. Here it is after about 2.5 seconds. And finally after over 4.5 seconds, just before Vick runs. There have been issues with protections, I'm not saying the line has been perfect but they did as good a job on this play as anyone could ask, holding a 4 man rush with 5 man protection for almost 5 seconds. Vick missed multiple open receivers and took off running anyway.

Teams are wising up to the value of stopping Jackson, here's a coverage the Broncos ran earlier in the game. Centrefield safety, in addition to one parked over Jackson, who bracketed him with the corner. LBs picked up the TE and RB as they released to that side.

I'll post more thoughts as I go through the rest of the game, particularly the 2nd half.

That was the exact play I was refering too when Coop made his man fall. Vick scrambled once he seen the spy coming up the middle.

Just a heads up, it gets worse in the 2nd half for anyone railing Cooper

 

[Ash]

not sure your point. This all started when I responded to your question, stating that he, along with every other WR did not seem to get much separation and it was for that reason that Vick was holding the ball so long.

...
All of this in response to my assertion that Cooper is not really that good at getting separation and using his size, which is still the truth. Just admit that the comparison to Fitz and the like was a bad one, and that maybe Cooper is not a WR2 and that his deficiencies are representative of a larger lack of legitimate WRs on this team.

IMO, Vick holds the ball so long because he misses opportunities due to an inability to anticipate. Mentally, I believe he's catching up to the action while going through his reads, not working ahead and throwing to the guy who will be open. He also has a tendency to ignore open underneath targets looking for a bigger play and both of those factors contribute.

Cooper does struggle to separate, I don't think anyone can seriously question that. I think it's wrong to say he doesn't use his size, and it's also true he would do better with a QB who would throw more touch / targeted passes either high or back shoulder to create some space for him. Cooper does have good hands, but I don't think is a legit #2 WR.

 

[Mighty Mice]

Soooooo....it's Giants week, and they look like an absolute dumpster fire so far.

How about a win to end this 3-game skid, move to 2-0 in the division, and likely into a tie for first place at 2-3 after DEN rips the Cowboys?

Hell, I'm going to the TB game in about 12 days and I would love to be walking out of Raymond James with the birds at 3-3 and at least tied for first in the NFC East. SDC, KC and DEN are all good teams, the schedule did us no favors, and we had opportunities to win one or two of those.

Just sayin'...

 

[renesauz]

I just watched all-22 of the 1st half and only watched Cooper.

(8:59) cooper beats his man inside, the defender actually falls when Coop made his cut. Vick Scrambles for 13 yards.

(6:10) he boxes his man out on a curl. Vick hits Celek wide open but he dropped it. Typical. Catch would have lead to 1st and goal.

2q (15:00) short middle catch for 10 yards.

(5:05) beat his man on a comeback near the sideline. Snatched the ball and kept his feet inbounds for 15 yards.

(3:15) Cooper is one one one on the outside. Vick dumps it to Polk for 13 yards. We're being played man to man with one S deep. The middle is crowded to stop the quick passes and zone reads.

The rest of the plays Cooper is either blocking or being used as a decoy to space out the field opposite of the play side. He's doing his job. The offense moves. Vick just struggles in the redzone. Not much more to say, nor is this some new issue with Vick. The only passing TD in the redzone this year went to______? You guessed it, Riley fkn Cooper vs SD. The rest of them are from 20+. I don't mind loosing, but giving the style/pace/hype of the offense we should be scoring TDs. All of the yards the O accumulates amounts to nothing.

So in all of these, it would appear, Vick made the right call. When Cooper actually got separation, Vick hit him or he hit another open option in Polk and Celek. The rest of the time Cooper is blocking. That's your Fitz-like WR 2. A downfield blocker. I think we are debating the wrong things. You want to believe that Cooper is really good and Vick is just bad. I do not agree, but the bigger picture here is that Cooper (as good or bad as you or I think he is) is not a valid WR2 and I would kill to have any of the comps you listed in lieu of him. My guess is you would too.. THIS is representative of a weak WR corps, which was my point-not just being down on Riley Cooper, but being down on him being #2 on the depth chart.

I agree 100% with the bolded.

Right. Any GM in the league would deal Cooper straight-up for Fitz in a heartbeat if he could. Same for Decker, Nelson, etc. Crazy comparison by ShaHBucks.

With all due respect to the both of you the below really isnt that hard to comprehend:

I don't have the time to do comps to defend Coopers athleticism. Off top of my head he stacks up well with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz. Big recievers with big hands and 4.5 speed pretty much. Any of those guys ever covered and still make catches?

not sure your point. This all started when I responded to your question, stating that he, along with every other WR did not seem to get much separation and it was for that reason that Vick was holding the ball so long.

Since then its been a bunch of meandering comparisons from "He would be Eric Decker in Denver", to "he stacks up well with with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz", to "the rest of the plays he's blocking. He's doing his job".. Shahbucks has such a hardon to prove how good Cooper is that he went back to watch only Cooper's routes and then posted an outline of the plays which prove he gets some separation and in those cases-VICK THROWS TO HIM! I'm just not sure of the point of any of this anymore.

All of this in response to my assertion that Cooper is not really that good at getting separation and using his size, which is still the truth. Just admit that the comparison to Fitz and the like was a bad one, and that maybe Cooper is not a WR2 and that his deficiencies are representative of a larger lack of legitimate WRs on this team.

Whats so hard to comprehend about that?

I don't consider myself a Vick basher. I hope whoever the coaches decide starts plays well and helps the team win games. Based on analysis I recently heard, Vick isn't a quarterback that will often throw to a guy without separation. Cooper is a guy that could probably make catches without separation because of his size, but Vick doesn't usually make those throws.

I don't think that's necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, but if Vick isn't going to make these throws, and if Cooper isn't going to get better separation, why leave him in? I don't think they're a good match playing with each other. They need to either get a shiftier wide receiver in there that will get open enough for Vick to make the throw, or they need to get a quarterback that will throw it to Cooper without separation. I don't think it makes sense for both to be on the field at the same time in 2WR sets.

A voice of reason. I've made no secret of the fact that I'd prefer to see Foles in there. I also tend to think that Cooper is a decent WR- but with Vick under center he's just another square peg-round hole. I also firmly believe that Super Bowl caliber QBs can throw a guy open. Vick can't. You can overcome that with a great defense and a strong running game...we have no defense. My only conclusion is that since we aren't going to acquire 2 more receivers who can create their own space, we're better off using a QB who can throw a guy open. I think we're closer to winning with Cooper at WR2 than we are with Vick under center.

 

[ProBowler88]

I think Vick is getting too much blame, that defense is terrible.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

I think Vick is getting too much blame, that defense is terrible.

The defense could throw Cooper open better then Vick

 

[renesauz]

I think Vick is getting too much blame, that defense is terrible.

Nobody is blaming Vick for giving up 30 PPG, or for the losses. Vick is being criticized because his liabilities are showing, and many don't believe he is capable of consistently performing at the level necessary to win long term in the NFL. The offense looked GREAT n week one, but we now know that Washington is as bad on Defense as we are. Against better defenses, the offense is still struggling to score

 

[ShaHBucks]

I just watched all-22 of the 1st half and only watched Cooper.

(8:59) cooper beats his man inside, the defender actually falls when Coop made his cut. Vick Scrambles for 13 yards.

(6:10) he boxes his man out on a curl. Vick hits Celek wide open but he dropped it. Typical. Catch would have lead to 1st and goal.

2q (15:00) short middle catch for 10 yards.

(5:05) beat his man on a comeback near the sideline. Snatched the ball and kept his feet inbounds for 15 yards.

(3:15) Cooper is one one one on the outside. Vick dumps it to Polk for 13 yards. We're being played man to man with one S deep. The middle is crowded to stop the quick passes and zone reads.

The rest of the plays Cooper is either blocking or being used as a decoy to space out the field opposite of the play side. He's doing his job. The offense moves. Vick just struggles in the redzone. Not much more to say, nor is this some new issue with Vick. The only passing TD in the redzone this year went to______? You guessed it, Riley fkn Cooper vs SD. The rest of them are from 20+. I don't mind loosing, but giving the style/pace/hype of the offense we should be scoring TDs. All of the yards the O accumulates amounts to nothing.

So in all of these, it would appear, Vick made the right call. When Cooper actually got separation, Vick hit him or he hit another open option in Polk and Celek. The rest of the time Cooper is blocking. That's your Fitz-like WR 2. A downfield blocker. I think we are debating the wrong things. You want to believe that Cooper is really good and Vick is just bad. I do not agree, but the bigger picture here is that Cooper (as good or bad as you or I think he is) is not a valid WR2 and I would kill to have any of the comps you listed in lieu of him. My guess is you would too.. THIS is representative of a weak WR corps, which was my point-not just being down on Riley Cooper, but being down on him being #2 on the depth chart.I agree 100% with the bolded.

Right. Any GM in the league would deal Cooper straight-up for Fitz in a heartbeat if he could. Same for Decker, Nelson, etc. Crazy comparison by ShaHBucks.

With all due respect to the both of you the below really isnt that hard to comprehend:

I don't have the time to do comps to defend Coopers athleticism. Off top of my head he stacks up well with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz. Big recievers with big hands and 4.5 speed pretty much. Any of those guys ever covered and still make catches?

not sure your point. This all started when I responded to your question, stating that he, along with every other WR did not seem to get much separation and it was for that reason that Vick was holding the ball so long.Since then its been a bunch of meandering comparisons from "He would be Eric Decker in Denver", to "he stacks up well with with guys like Decker, Nelson, Mike Williams, even Fitz", to "the rest of the plays he's blocking. He's doing his job".. Shahbucks has such a hardon to prove how good Cooper is that he went back to watch only Cooper's routes and then posted an outline of the plays which prove he gets some separation and in those cases-VICK THROWS TO HIM! I'm just not sure of the point of any of this anymore.

All of this in response to my assertion that Cooper is not really that good at getting separation and using his size, which is still the truth. Just admit that the comparison to Fitz and the like was a bad one, and that maybe Cooper is not a WR2 and that his deficiencies are representative of a larger lack of legitimate WRs on this team.

Whats so hard to comprehend about that?

I don't consider myself a Vick basher. I hope whoever the coaches decide starts plays well and helps the team win games. Based on analysis I recently heard, Vick isn't a quarterback that will often throw to a guy without separation. Cooper is a guy that could probably make catches without separation because of his size, but Vick doesn't usually make those throws. I don't think that's necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, but if Vick isn't going to make these throws, and if Cooper isn't going to get better separation, why leave him in? I don't think they're a good match playing with each other. They need to either get a shiftier wide receiver in there that will get open enough for Vick to make the throw, or they need to get a quarterback that will throw it to Cooper without separation. I don't think it makes sense for both to be on the field at the same time in 2WR sets.

A voice of reason. I've made no secret of the fact that I'd prefer to see Foles in there. I also tend to think that Cooper is a decent WR- but with Vick under center he's just another square peg-round hole. I also firmly believe that Super Bowl caliber QBs can throw a guy open. Vick can't. You can overcome that with a great defense and a strong running game...we have no defense. My only conclusion is that since we aren't going to acquire 2 more receivers who can create their own space, we're better off using a QB who can throw a guy open. I think we're closer to winning with Cooper at WR2 than we are with Vick under center.

I agree. Dez Bryant, Julio ect.. isn't taking the field for us. Right now a QB that can make a Cooper/Celek/Avant better is what we could use to compete in the shootouts we will be in thanks to the secondary. Vick is far from worst QB, and he is far from the best. The team is simply stuck in limbo. We're Chi with Cutler, the Bills with Fitzpatrick, or TB with Freeman. We have a QB too good to get rid of and too bad to take us to the next level. That might be worse than finding out if Foles sucks. Vick will beat up bad teams and get exposed vs serious contenders.

 

[renesauz]

FWIW...I think Vick's inability to throw a guy open is severely limiting the potential of our TE's as well. TE's typically use size to shield and are rarely WIDE open. Mismatches typically happen with TE's because DB's are not big enough to physically compete in close quarters, and LB's can't stay with them (the better TE's anyway). Against Vick...that's not an issue...regardless of size. In shorter yardage situations this isn't really a big deal since we have a nice running game. But in longer yardage situations it's a huge liability which effectively neuters what should be a strength of the offense (TE depth).

I realize that Foles isn't nearly as athletic as Vick, but even an average (NFL starter) ability to throw a man open would make up for Vick's legs now. And if he's even a little above average, it could make this offense a lot more effective in the red zone especially.

 

[Ash]

FWIW...I think Vick's inability to throw a guy open is severely limiting the potential of our TE's as well.

This is an excellent point that I hadn't considered yet

 

[zadok]

Is it entirely unreasonable to send Cooper and a mid round pick to CLE for Josh Gordon?

 

[unckeyherb]

Is it entirely unreasonable to send Cooper and a mid round pick to CLE for Josh Gordon?

I'd be all for it and then some, but I'd say the chances of that going down were eliminated with the current 2 game streak they have going. I'd be surprised if they are still accepting offers at this point for Gordon. Then again, who knows. If you read through the last page its clear that WR isn't the problem, because Cooper has the same measurables as Jordy Nelson and Larry Fitzgerald.

 

[Deamon]

Michael Vick - One Play In Review.

I just started watching the All-22 and found a play that typifies my frustrations with Vick. There's an assumption that when Vick runs, it's because he has to. It's still early in the season, but to me Vick is showing signs of regressing in the last two games to the kind of one read, run QB he was in Atlanta.

The play is 1st and 10 from the 29 with 8:59 left in the 1st. Here's the Pre Snap look.

They've lined up 3 over the bunch formation on the right side, with a safety in centrefield. Cooper has press coverage on his own on the left. McCoy released to the left underneath Cooper.

Here's the first point at which Vick could have released the ball. Cooper has gotten open (partly due to the DB slipping) to the inside. Vick holds on.

At this point, almost everybody is open, although Celek over the middle and Jackson deep right have underneath defenders potentially in the passing lanes, so maybe not. Cooper, McCoy and Avant in the right flat are all available.

Vick doesn't take those options though, and rolls left instead. Well, maybe he had to because of a protection breakdown.

Here's the initial pocket. Nice and clean, no problems there. Here it is after about 2.5 seconds. And finally after over 4.5 seconds, just before Vick runs. There have been issues with protections, I'm not saying the line has been perfect but they did as good a job on this play as anyone could ask, holding a 4 man rush with 5 man protection for almost 5 seconds. Vick missed multiple open receivers and took off running anyway.

Teams are wising up to the value of stopping Jackson, here's a coverage the Broncos ran earlier in the game. Centrefield safety, in addition to one parked over Jackson, who bracketed him with the corner. LBs picked up the TE and RB as they released to that side.

I'll post more thoughts as I go through the rest of the game, particularly the 2nd half.

great analysis.... love this.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Question--Since a lot of teams seem to be "selling" or making deals now do you think we should get in on the mix?

Guys like Cole or Graham (who I was WAYYYY off on in this system) don't seem to fit and it would seem like we could get someting for them.

 

[Buddy Ball 2K3]

Michael Vick - One Play In Review.

I just started watching the All-22 and found a play that typifies my frustrations with Vick. There's an assumption that when Vick runs, it's because he has to. It's still early in the season, but to me Vick is showing signs of regressing in the last two games to the kind of one read, run QB he was in Atlanta.

The play is 1st and 10 from the 29 with 8:59 left in the 1st. Here's the Pre Snap look.

They've lined up 3 over the bunch formation on the right side, with a safety in centrefield. Cooper has press coverage on his own on the left. McCoy released to the left underneath Cooper.

Here's the first point at which Vick could have released the ball. Cooper has gotten open (partly due to the DB slipping) to the inside. Vick holds on.

At this point, almost everybody is open, although Celek over the middle and Jackson deep right have underneath defenders potentially in the passing lanes, so maybe not. Cooper, McCoy and Avant in the right flat are all available.

Vick doesn't take those options though, and rolls left instead. Well, maybe he had to because of a protection breakdown.

Here's the initial pocket. Nice and clean, no problems there. Here it is after about 2.5 seconds. And finally after over 4.5 seconds, just before Vick runs. There have been issues with protections, I'm not saying the line has been perfect but they did as good a job on this play as anyone could ask, holding a 4 man rush with 5 man protection for almost 5 seconds. Vick missed multiple open receivers and took off running anyway.

Teams are wising up to the value of stopping Jackson, here's a coverage the Broncos ran earlier in the game. Centrefield safety, in addition to one parked over Jackson, who bracketed him with the corner. LBs picked up the TE and RB as they released to that side.

I'll post more thoughts as I go through the rest of the game, particularly the 2nd half.

great analysis.... love this.

Agreed