2014 Hall of Famers announced - '15 class now being discussed (1 Viewer)

[Premier]

Nice work by Guy improving his game in the 30 years since he retired.

 

[MarshallRob]

Nice work by Guy improving his game in the 30 years since he retired.

All the way down to 89th all time in punting average!

 

[Raider Nation]

Former Indianapolis Colts wide receiver Marvin Harrison and coach Tony Dungy were noticeably absent on the Pro Football Hall of Fame's class of 2014 list released during Saturday's NFL Honors Awards ceremony.

Quite simply, Harrison was snubbed.

The eight-time Pro Bowl pick ranks third in career receptions, seventh in receiving yards and fifth in receiving touchdowns. His figure of 5.8 catches per game is the best among all players who are no longer active.

Over a dominant eight-year stretch from 1999-2006 when he rivaled Randy Moss and Terrell Owens as the best receiver in the game, Harrison averaged 103 receptions, 1,402 yards and 13 touchdowns per season.

For consistency, durability and high-end production, only Jerry Rice and Don Hutson can match that sustained excellence over nearly a decade.

Even if voters credit Peyton Manning for an irregular portion of Harrison's success, his numbers merit a first-ballot Hall of Fame selection as one of the most accomplished receivers in NFL history.

"I'll always be indebted to what he did for me," Manning said this week. "I leaned on Marvin a lot my entire career. I sure hope he gets that call this Saturday. He deserves it."

We suspect Harrison was left off quite a few ballots due to speculation that he was involved in a 2008 shooting in Philadelphia. He has never been questioned by homicide detectives in the killing.

The Pro Football Hall of Fame requires its selection committee to use "football-only criteria" in weighing a player's case for election. Sportswriters can't resist the temptation, however, to legislate their own version of morality.

Dungy should have plenty of support after helping to turn the Buccaneers franchise around and winning five consecutive division titles with the Colts. He will likely find his way to Canton eventually, but selectors often favor players over coaches and contributors.

In addition to Harrison and Dungy, the other players to miss the cut are pass rushers Charles Haley and Kevin Greene, running back Jerome Bettis, wide receiver Tim Brown, safety John Lynch, guard Will Shields, kicker Morten Andersen and owner Eddie DeBartolo Jr.

 

[Raider Nation]

We suspect Harrison was left off quite a few ballots due to speculation that he was involved in a 2008 shooting in Philadelphia.

Ya think?

 

[Premier]

@joereedy: Longest debates of the day (30-plus minutes) were Guy, Dungy, Humphrey, Williams; Brooks was shortest debate at 9 minutes #PFHOF

9 minutes

That's when they all went to take a leak.

 

[Raider Nation]

Looking forward to fat Berman being the center of attention as he does his horrible "THHHHHHHHE RAID-IZZZZZZZ" shtick when he profiles Ray Guy, as buckets of sweat drip off of his stupid, bulbous head.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Andre Reed made it this year

Awesome

 

[Raider Nation]

Nice work by Guy improving his game in the 30 years since he retired.

All the way down to 89th all time in punting average!

Embarrassing post. Get your nose out of the stat books and actually watch a football game some time.

 

[Tau837]

Here's how I would vote:

Michael Strahan

Derrick Brooks

Aeneas Williams

Will Shields

Marvin Harrison

I also think first timers Rodney Harrison, Walter Jones, and Zach Thomas are deserving, but they don't make my cut this year.


Here's how I expect the vote to end up:

Michael Strahan

Derrick Brooks

Walter Jones

Jerome Bettis

Tony Dungy

So the non-senior class is Strahan, Brooks, Williams, Jones, and Reed. Not sure why people would bash this class. I think they got 3 right, and Jones is clearly worthy; I could have flip-flopped him with Shields in my preferred class and been fine with it.

Reed seems like a weak choice. First off, I think Harrison should have been the nobrainer choice if a WR was to be chosen. But, even if not, IMO Tim Brown is more deserving than Reed.

I'm particularly pleased that Williams made it. He has seemed like an underappreciated candidate for quite some time, but he is very deserving IMO.

I don't know much about Humphrey, but electing Guy is a joke. We've had the discussion numerous times in this forum. A punter's impact cannot compare to the impact of guys who played offense and defense, and Guy was far from the best punter of all time. Big on that selection.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I'm glad Andre Reed made it. He deserves it.

 

[Tau837]

Nice work by Guy improving his game in the 30 years since he retired.

All the way down to 89th all time in punting average!

Embarrassing post. Get your nose out of the stat books and actually watch a football game some time.

1. No punter deserves induction over offensive and defensive HOF candidates, all of whom made much more impact than any punter.

2. Guy is not close to the best punter of all time. If you disagree, make a case. If you do, it will be easily refutable.

 

[MarshallRob]

Nice work by Guy improving his game in the 30 years since he retired.

All the way down to 89th all time in punting average!

Embarrassing post. Get your nose out of the stat books and actually watch a football game some time.

I do and did. In his prime Guy was Mr. Touchback. Shouldn't you be more outraged Tim Brown didn't get in?

 

[CalBear]

Nice work by Guy improving his game in the 30 years since he retired.

All the way down to 89th all time in punting average!

Embarrassing post. Get your nose out of the stat books and actually watch a football game some time.

I watch plenty of games. I can't remember a single one where the guy punting mattered.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Tasker should be in before any punter, FWIW.

 

[Raider Nation]

Can't wait until the other 88 punters "ranked" ahead of Guy in average get in. Because really, that's all that matters.

 

[CalBear]

Tasker should be in before any punter, FWIW.

Speaking of ridiculous HOF arguments.

 

[Tau837]

Can't wait until the other 88 punters "ranked" ahead of Guy in average get in. Because really, that's all that matters.

Classic response. Rather than explain the rationale for Guy to make it, post something sarcastic. I guess that's all you've got.

 

[Hooper31]

Glad to see Ray Guy be so honored. Very deserving.

 

[Raider Nation]

Glad to see Ray Guy be so honored. Very deserving.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Nice work by Guy improving his game in the 30 years since he retired.

All the way down to 89th all time in punting average!

Embarrassing post. Get your nose out of the stat books and actually watch a football game some time.

I watch plenty of games. I can't remember a single one where the guy punting mattered.

Well, the guy punting usually didn't matter, but Ray Guy punting mattered.

 

[Hooper31]

Can't wait until the other 88 punters "ranked" ahead of Guy in average get in. Because really, that's all that matters.

Classic response. Rather than explain the rationale for Guy to make it, post something sarcastic. I guess that's all you've got.

He was named to the NFL's 75th anniversary team. The folks who picked the team said he was the greatest punter in the NFL up to that point. He was the master of hang time and directional punting. He was putting teams inside the 20 before the stat "punts inside the 20" was being counted as a stat.

The Seattle special teams took a page from the Ray Guy play book this year. Their punt return unit had given up a total of 17 return yard the entire season heading into week 17. Removing another team's punt return game for a whole season matters. Ray Guy was eliminating the other team's punt return game long ago.

 

[Raider Nation]

Can't wait until the other 88 punters "ranked" ahead of Guy in average get in. Because really, that's all that matters.

Classic response. Rather than explain the rationale for Guy to make it, post something sarcastic. I guess that's all you've got.

Why is him being a Hall of Famer "ridiculous?" Because you say so? Well I don't think it's ridiculous, so we're even.

Unfortunately, you cannot give proper weight to punting stats the way you can by looking at how many TDs a QB threw, or how many home runs a baseball player hit. Calling up his average as the only measuring stick wasn't even worthy of a reply. There is no way to quantify game situations, field position, balls downed inside the 20, coffin-corner punts, etc.

If you watched him punt, it was evident he was the best there ever was. It was the epitome of "the eyeball test" for a player. I'm sorry if that answer isn't good enough. When his contemporary players and coaches say the same thing, why try to pick at numbers to try to discredit him?

Regardless, he's a Hall of Famer.... so hate away.

 

[CapnJB]

Good to see Walter Jones make it. He was called for holding 9 times in 5,703 passing plays and only gave up 23 sacks in 180 games. That guy was awesome.

 

[CalBear]

Unfortunately, you cannot give proper weight to punting stats the way you can by looking at how many TDs a QB threw, or how many home runs a baseball player hit. Calling up his average as the only measuring stick wasn't even worthy of a reply. There is no way to quantify game situations, field position, balls downed inside the 20, coffin-corner punts, etc.

Why is there no way to quantify those things? Punting stats, in fact, seem to be about the most obvious things to quantify in football. It's one guy kicking a football and one guy catching it. What's hard to quantify?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Tasker should be in before any punter, FWIW.

Speaking of ridiculous HOF arguments.

Love tweaking you guys

 

[Hooper31]

Unfortunately, you cannot give proper weight to punting stats the way you can by looking at how many TDs a QB threw, or how many home runs a baseball player hit. Calling up his average as the only measuring stick wasn't even worthy of a reply. There is no way to quantify game situations, field position, balls downed inside the 20, coffin-corner punts, etc.

Why is there no way to quantify those things? Punting stats, in fact, seem to be about the most obvious things to quantify in football. It's one guy kicking a football and one guy catching it. What's hard to quantify?

Tell us which punter in the first 75 years of the NFL should have been named to the that team, and be sure to quantify your answer.

 

[Raider Nation]

I think this is a fair assessment of Guy... stats and all.

 

[Raider Nation]

Unfortunately, you cannot give proper weight to punting stats the way you can by looking at how many TDs a QB threw, or how many home runs a baseball player hit. Calling up his average as the only measuring stick wasn't even worthy of a reply. There is no way to quantify game situations, field position, balls downed inside the 20, coffin-corner punts, etc.

Why is there no way to quantify those things? Punting stats, in fact, seem to be about the most obvious things to quantify in football. It's one guy kicking a football and one guy catching it. What's hard to quantify?

Tell us which punter in the first 75 years of the NFL should have been named to the that team, and be sure to quantify your answer.

See, that's the thing. Sure, it took awhile, but he's in the Hall of Fame. They didn't HAVE to put him in the Hall, just because he was a Senior nominee. So is he in because he's a swell guy, excuse the pun? Did they pick his name out of a hat, and he just got lucky, even though he's 89th all-time in punting average? He was on the ballot all of those years for a reason -- because he's the best punter who ever lived.

And while I agree that special teams aren't a true 1/3 of the game, they are pretty darned important.

 

[Raider Nation]

Nice work by Guy improving his game in the 30 years since he retired.

All the way down to 89th all time in punting average!

Embarrassing post. Get your nose out of the stat books and actually watch a football game some time.

MR, I apologize for this condescending comment, BTW. You are a good poster.

Just sick of hearing the same tired argument year after year.

 

[CalBear]

Unfortunately, you cannot give proper weight to punting stats the way you can by looking at how many TDs a QB threw, or how many home runs a baseball player hit. Calling up his average as the only measuring stick wasn't even worthy of a reply. There is no way to quantify game situations, field position, balls downed inside the 20, coffin-corner punts, etc.

Why is there no way to quantify those things? Punting stats, in fact, seem to be about the most obvious things to quantify in football. It's one guy kicking a football and one guy catching it. What's hard to quantify?

Tell us which punter in the first 75 years of the NFL should have been named to the that team, and be sure to quantify your answer.

Danny White, because he actually played football as well as punted.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Just like Haley himself, it's insane he's not in.

 

[MarshallRob]

Nice work by Guy improving his game in the 30 years since he retired.

All the way down to 89th all time in punting average!

Embarrassing post. Get your nose out of the stat books and actually watch a football game some time.

MR, I apologize for this condescending comment, BTW. You are a good poster.

Just sick of hearing the same tired argument year after year.

Thanks RN. Well you won't have to hear it anymore right? Guy was considered by far the best when I was a kid. The pick is not outrageous. It also practically guarantees Shane Lechler gets in someday too so you should also be happy about that. If only one Raider could get in I personally think it should have been Tim Brown who was better than Reed and played with far worse QB's.

 

[Raider Nation]

Chris Kluwe wrote a letter to the HOF selection committee yesterday. Maybe this did the trick.

Dear Pro Football Hall of Fame selection committee members,

I had the dubious pleasure of reading an article on Yahoo yesterday about Ray Guy, and I have one thing to ask every single one of you.

How dare you?

How dare you tell a man who devoted his life to perfecting his craft that he's not worthy of admission among the game's greatest? How dare you have the heartless effrontery to pronounce that football is a team sport, but that some positions are more equal than others? How dare you be so selfish, short-sighted, and just plain #######-ish to declare that Ray Guy won't be recognized for his skills because you're too #######ed lazy to learn the subtleties of kicking?

That's right, voting committee, you're lazy. You're indolent, slothful, petulant, ignorant, and flat-out stupid. You perpetuate the same small-minded "Oh, he's just a kicker" stereotype every single time you refuse to acknowledge that Ray Guy belongs in the Hall of Fame, because YOU'RE UNWILLING TO LEARN.

You have no desire to understand the fundamentals and complexities of trying to make a football travel over 60 yards using just your foot; you have no inkling of just how hard it actually is to get distance, hangtime, and direction while operating under a rapid time constraint; you have no clue what it takes in terms of concentration, practice, and desire to be the very best at your job. All you can do is look at an arbitrary series of numbers and proclaim that they're not big enough, without even beginning to understand the story those stats tell. You look at a man who lowered his personal numbers so his team could succeed, choosing hangtime over distance so he would never—not once in his 14-year career—see a punt returned for a touchdown; a man who became a household name at an unrecognized position for the benefit he brought to those around him. And now you're trying to tell me that he doesn't belong in an institution nominally dedicated to the glories of teamwork and sacrifice? Seriously, are you ####### with me? Do you even realize how absolutely asinine that sounds?

This is a player who brought the concept of hangtime to the NFL, a stat that today's special teams coaches absolutely cannot do without. This is a player who pinned opposing offenses back inside their 20-yard line instead of simply booting a touchback, winning the battle of field position before anyone realized there was even a fight. This is a player who revolutionized his corner of the sport just as much as the coaches and owners in the Hall of Fame changed theirs. And you're saying, in effect, that he's "just a kicker"?

I've been trying not to swear lately, but this is one of the most absolutely horse#### infuriating things I've noticed in the world—the idea that you can denigrate what someone does because you're not willing to take the time to learn how hard it is to accomplish. As sportswriters, you should understand more than most what it's like to have people tell you that your job is unimportant and easy and unworthy of recognition, all because they're too lazy to recognize the time that goes into it.

I mean, let's take this as a prime example. Do you know why I'm chastising you, writers all? BECAUSE I TOOK THE TIME TO LEARN HOW TO WRITE AND CRAFT AN ARGUMENT. I understand the interplay between words and logic, the pacing of a sentence, how to use the rule of three for enhanced emotional impact. I read thousands upon thousands of books and learned the styles of each particular author; I spent time sparring online to hone my techniques and skills; I chose to understand WHY something works the way it does.

How many of you can say the same about punting? How many of you have taken time to learn about why the angle of a drop is important? Who among you knows how big a difference an inch can make based on where your foot hits the ball? Which one of you indolent cows has ever bothered to even actually TRY to punt, instead of dismissing it as an inferior position because we're not on the field as often as everyone else?

No, instead you continue down the path of ineptitude and ignorance. You've elected coaches to the Hall of Fame, administrators to the Hall of Fame, owners to the Hall of Fame, players at every single position other than punter to the Hall of Fame, and every year, every single damning year that you continue this trend of stupidity, you cheapen the integrity of the game. You tell children that football is the ultimate team game, unless you happen to play a certain position. You tell players that it doesn't matter if you're the very best at your job, because you play a certain position. You tell fans that it's all about the 53 men on the roster, except for that one guy who does the job you can't be bothered to learn about.

You preach intellectual sloth and apathy and the all too popular creed of "I can't be bothered to understand something but I'm going to render judgment on it anyway" that sometimes seems woven into the very fabric of our society. As you smugly guard your gate to the secret clubhouse, you never even stop to consider the underlying message you're sending to an entire generation of football players—a message that lies completely at odds with the stated intent of the game you cherish so much.

Frankly, you sicken me, every last one of you. You have no idea what teamwork really means. If you're going to be the stewards of greatness, the arbiters of team play, then do your ####### job. Ray Guy did his.

Sincerely,

Chris Kluwe
NFL team player

P.S. Ignorance is not bliss. It's ignorance, and you should be ashamed. Also, why don't you just change the HoF entrance by position group instead of just a static number? For example, you could do 0-2 specialists, 2-4 offensive players, 2-4 defensive players, and 0-1 administrator/coaches each year. That literally took me all of 10 seconds to think of.

 

[Tau837]

Can't wait until the other 88 punters "ranked" ahead of Guy in average get in. Because really, that's all that matters.

Classic response. Rather than explain the rationale for Guy to make it, post something sarcastic. I guess that's all you've got.

He was named to the NFL's 75th anniversary team. The folks who picked the team said he was the greatest punter in the NFL up to that point. He was the master of hang time and directional punting. He was putting teams inside the 20 before the stat "punts inside the 20" was being counted as a stat.

How many big plays do you think an average HOFer makes per game or per season? How many impact plays did Strahan, Brooks, Williams, Jones, and Reed make per game or season, just using this year's non-veteran selection HOF class as an example? Now... how many did Guy make per game and/or per season as a special teams player?

And let's define an impact play for a punter. Is it an impact play to make a 40 yard punt? To make a 40 yard punt that is not returned due to a fair catch? (But how to separate the punter's contribution from his coverage team in that situation?) Is it an impact play to have a punt downed inside the opponent's 20 yard line?

Guy is #18 in punts, #16 in punt yardage, and #89 in yards per punt. From 1976-1986 (the only years touchback and inside the 20 data is available here), he had a touchback percentage of 15.3% and an inside the 20 percentage of 25%. Punters are dwarfing those numbers nowadays. Are guys like Mike Scifres and Shane Lechler going to make the HOF now? Because they blow Guy's performance away.

Heck, let's talk about Guy's own teammates. Is Guy more deserving of the HOF than Ken Stabler? Jim Plunkett? Cliff Branch? Todd Christensen? Lester Hayes? Did Guy make even 10% of the impact plays these non-HOFers made?

His induction is a joke.

 

[Tau837]

Unfortunately, you cannot give proper weight to punting stats the way you can by looking at how many TDs a QB threw, or how many home runs a baseball player hit. Calling up his average as the only measuring stick wasn't even worthy of a reply. There is no way to quantify game situations, field position, balls downed inside the 20, coffin-corner punts, etc.

Why is there no way to quantify those things? Punting stats, in fact, seem to be about the most obvious things to quantify in football. It's one guy kicking a football and one guy catching it. What's hard to quantify?

Tell us which punter in the first 75 years of the NFL should have been named to the that team, and be sure to quantify your answer.

Danny White, because he actually played football as well as punted.

Even better, Sammy Baugh.

 

[Todem]

Marvin Harrison is a stone cold lock for the HOF……brilliant career, and after Jerry Rice….IMO the best I had ever seen.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Can't wait until the other 88 punters "ranked" ahead of Guy in average get in. Because really, that's all that matters.

Classic response. Rather than explain the rationale for Guy to make it, post something sarcastic. I guess that's all you've got.

He was named to the NFL's 75th anniversary team. The folks who picked the team said he was the greatest punter in the NFL up to that point. He was the master of hang time and directional punting. He was putting teams inside the 20 before the stat "punts inside the 20" was being counted as a stat.

How many big plays do you think an average HOFer makes per game or per season? How many impact plays did Strahan, Brooks, Williams, Jones, and Reed make per game or season, just using this year's non-veteran selection HOF class as an example? Now... how many did Guy make per game and/or per season as a special teams player?

And let's define an impact play for a punter. Is it an impact play to make a 40 yard punt? To make a 40 yard punt that is not returned due to a fair catch? (But how to separate the punter's contribution from his coverage team in that situation?) Is it an impact play to have a punt downed inside the opponent's 20 yard line?

Guy is #18 in punts, #16 in punt yardage, and #89 in yards per punt. From 1976-1986 (the only years touchback and inside the 20 data is available here), he had a touchback percentage of 15.3% and an inside the 20 percentage of 25%. Punters are dwarfing those numbers nowadays. Are guys like Mike Scifres and Shane Lechler going to make the HOF now? Because they blow Guy's performance away.

Heck, let's talk about Guy's own teammates. Is Guy more deserving of the HOF than Ken Stabler? Jim Plunkett? Cliff Branch? Todd Christensen? Lester Hayes? Did Guy make even 10% of the impact plays these non-HOFers made?

His induction is a joke.

I am on record agreeing with your impact plays analysis. But doesn't a do it all ST guy like Tasker or Bates make more impact plays than the punter?

 

[Raider Nation]

Trying out a new thread title. Let me know how you guys like it.

 

[Tau837]

Trying out a new thread title. Let me know how you guys like it.

No response to my points on Guy? Make a case.

 

[Hooper31]

Trying out a new thread title. Let me know how you guys like it.

No response to my points on Guy? Make a case.

He did link to a very detailed case. Here it is again. LINK

Does it not count if someone else wrote it?

 

[Raider Nation]

Trying out a new thread title. Let me know how you guys like it.

No response to my points on Guy? Make a case.

I thought I did. You always come with stats, which I appreciate. But again, analyzing a punters' value is a unique situation. I'm not sure how heavily you can weigh pure numbers. I'm also pretty sure I'm not going to change the mind of someone who calls his induction "a joke," so what's the point of arguing with you. He's in. That's all I care about.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Trying out a new thread title. Let me know how you guys like it.

No response to my points on Guy? Make a case.

You know the case on Guy already. To ignore it and ignore what he did is being intellectually dishonest. Some would call that being a troll. Were you even alive to see Ray Guy punt?

 

[Raider Nation]

Madden speaks about Ray Guy.

John is giving his induction speech.

 

[Raiderfan32904]

Madden speaks about Ray Guy.

John is giving his induction speech.

Wish AD could have made it.

 

[Raider Nation]

Top 10 Draft Steals - Ray Guy

 

[Tau837]

Trying out a new thread title. Let me know how you guys like it.

No response to my points on Guy? Make a case.

He did link to a very detailed case. Here it is again. LINK

Does it not count if someone else wrote it?

I read the article. It doesn't make a great case for Guy's candidacy IMO. For example, this does not reflect well on Guy:

Guy didn’t successfully land all those punts around the 5-yard line, however. During this period in his career, Guy almost certainly led all punters in touchbacks. He officially led the league with 15 in 1976 and 14 in 1977, and he tied for the lead with 14 in 1978. In 1974, in Week 3, Guy had four chances to pin the Steelers deep in their own end. One was caught at the 4 and returned to the 12. He punted the remaining three into the end zone.

In the A.F.C championship game against the Broncos after the 1977 season, Guy had three opportunities — from Denver’s 41 just before halftime, and from its 33 and its 40 in the third quarter — to provide the Raiders with a major field position advantage. He punted the first one into the middle of the end zone. He went for the coffin-corner on the second try but missed, and the result was a touchback. He angled the third attempt towards the left sideline and the ball went out of bounds on the 20. In effect, another touchback. The Raiders lost, 20-17.

In 1974, Guy had 15 touchbacks in 74 attempts. By comparison, Jerrel Wilson of the Chiefs, at age 33 and in his 12th season, had 3 touchbacks in 83 attempts. As a result, Wilson’s net average, 34.7, was slightly higher than Guy’s. Wilson also had eight punts out of bounds inside the 10 that year.

 

[Tau837]

Trying out a new thread title. Let me know how you guys like it.

No response to my points on Guy? Make a case.

You know the case on Guy already. To ignore it and ignore what he did is being intellectually dishonest. Some would call that being a troll. Were you even alive to see Ray Guy punt?

I have been watching NFL football since 1978 or so. Yes, I've seen Guy play. I've also seen a lot of Raiders play who were more deserving of the HOF than Guy is. Any comment on that?

I've also seen a lot of punters play who were better punters than Guy. Any comment on that?

 

[Hooper31]

Madden speaks about Ray Guy.

John is giving his induction speech.

Wish AD could have made it.

Was the first thought I had when I saw it on the NFL website. Al presented a lot of guys. I'm sure he's presented the most. I've got mad respect for what Al did during his entire NFL life. Sort of shame he was ripped so much late in life by people that had no idea what the bulk of Al's NFL life was all about.

 

[Tau837]

Trying out a new thread title. Let me know how you guys like it.

No response to my points on Guy? Make a case.

I thought I did. You always come with stats, which I appreciate. But again, analyzing a punters' value is a unique situation. I'm not sure how heavily you can weigh pure numbers. I'm also pretty sure I'm not going to change the mind of someone who calls his induction "a joke," so what's the point of arguing with you. He's in. That's all I care about.

No comment on whether or not Guy should be in over the other Raiders I mentioned? No comment on whether or not those other players made more impact on the games than Guy? Come on, let's hear it.

 

[Hooper31]

I read the article. It doesn't make a great case for Guy's candidacy IMO.

No problem. We disagree. I'm good with that.