BroncoFreak_2K3
sucker for Orange
Of the finalists my choices would be:
Antonio Gates
Devin Hester
Julius Peppers
Ricky Watters
Patrick Willis
Antonio Gates
Devin Hester
Julius Peppers
Ricky Watters
Patrick Willis
Maybe. An argument can be made. I wouldn’t argue against smith making it.Post season make a difference?
How does Johnson, Wayne, AND Holt get considered but Hines doesn’t. Similar stats, Super Bowl rings, and a SB MVP. I don’t get it.
Antonio Gates and Julius Peppers are locks. After that I'd go with Jared Allen, Rodney Harrison, Andre Johnson, and Patrick Willis.
You could be right, but then Wayne, Holt, and Johnson aren't HOF worthy either.How does Johnson, Wayne, AND Holt get considered but Hines doesn’t. Similar stats, Super Bowl rings, and a SB MVP. I don’t get it.
Ward is one of the most overrated players in the modern era of the NFL. He was very good. He was not HOF level.
How does Johnson, Wayne, AND Holt get considered but Hines doesn’t. Similar stats, Super Bowl rings, and a SB MVP. I don’t get it.
Feel free to disagree with the formula and methodology, but here are the list of non-HOF WRs rated higher than Ward in terms of PFR HOF Monitor Score.How does Johnson, Wayne, AND Holt get considered but Hines doesn’t. Similar stats, Super Bowl rings, and a SB MVP. I don’t get it.
You could be right, but then Wayne, Holt, and Johnson aren't HOF worthy either.How does Johnson, Wayne, AND Holt get considered but Hines doesn’t. Similar stats, Super Bowl rings, and a SB MVP. I don’t get it.
Ward is one of the most overrated players in the modern era of the NFL. He was very good. He was not HOF level.
Holt's resume, in 11 seasons:
Holt played at a consistent high level for his first 9 seasons in the league, then quickly faded and did not hang on compiling.
- Played a notable role in one of the greatest offenses of all time
- Key player on Super Bowl champion; had 7/109/1 in the Super Bowl
- Had one of the few best single WR seasons of all time: 117 receptions (still 17th highest single season total of all time), 1696 receiving yards (still 9th highest single season total of all time), and 12 TDs... with Marc Bulger at QB
- Selected 1st team All Pro 1 time and 2nd team All Pro 1 time and made 7 Pro Bowls
- Currently #21 all-time in receptions; #12 at time of retirement in 2010
- 5 seasons in top 10 in receptions, including 4 seasons in the top 4; led the league 1 time
- Currently #16 all-time in receiving yards; #10 at time of retirement
- 8 seasons in top 10 in receiving yards, including 4 seasons in the top 5; led the league 2 times
- 8 straight 1000+ yard seasons; 6 straight 1300+ yard seasons (NFL record); 2 1600+ yard seasons (1 of only 5 WRs to accomplish that)
- Currently #9 all-time in receiving yards per game; #2 at time of retirement
- 7 seasons in top 10 in receiving yards per game, including 4 seasons in the top 4; led the league 1 time
- Currently #36 all-time in receiving TDs; #18 at time of retirement
- 4 seasons in top 10 in receiving TDs, including 2 seasons in the top 3
- Currently #13 all-time in career yards/touch; #2 at time of retirement
IMO Holt is very worthy, and I think he will follow Bruce in.
Feel free to disagree with the formula and methodology, but here are the list of non-HOF WRs rated higher than Ward in terms of PFR HOF Monitor Score.How does Johnson, Wayne, AND Holt get considered but Hines doesn’t. Similar stats, Super Bowl rings, and a SB MVP. I don’t get it.
Larry Fitzgerald 141.09
Reggie Wayne 109.64
Julio Jones 107.97
Torry Holt 107.72
Antonio Brown 104.48
Steve Smith 99.41
Andre Johnson 94.41
Del Shofner 84.75
Henry Ellard 84.30
Harold Jackson 81.24
Anquan Boldin 80.52
Hines Ward 75.17
After this season is over, Ward should also be passed by Tyreek Hill (currently at 70.78). Hope is not lost for Ward, as 7 WR with lower scores have been inducted. But many of the receivers on this list will likely get more consideration than Ward will.
Then Gates, Peppers, Allen, Harrison, and Willis.Antonio Gates and Julius Peppers are locks. After that I'd go with Jared Allen, Rodney Harrison, Andre Johnson, and Patrick Willis.
Only 5 modern era finalists can be selected.
I don't see where Randall came into this discussion. This appears to be a reply.Gates is 100% in. Hester I like to be in as KR. (I think Mitchell should be in also as a KR) Without checking stats, I think Holt, Ward, and S Smith Hines have a chance because they won SBs. A couple of D guys also.
For those saying Cunningham ... 29,00 yards passing (like 60th all time). 56% completion %. So far down it's unfindable. And worst, only 8 times in 17 seasons did he play more than 7 games. Let that sink in. Hard to put a guy that was on IR 50% of the time in the HoF. None of it is overcome by running for 500 yards per season.
Rod Smith of the Broncos was consistently lauded for his blocking in the late 90s/early 00s, but in the case of Ward, it often felt like some throwing that on to the fire to try and convince us he was a top WR when he never really was (ZERO All-Pro 1st teams for him), almost like, "his numbers don't touch those of TO, Marvin or Randy, but what about his blocking?!"I've never heard of a WR blocking close to as well as Hines Ward. 99% of games they don't even mention how key a WRs blocks are to the run game. That won't show up in stats and it's a shame because it would help with almost every WR in college learning to take more pride in it.
San Diego had one of the best defenses and they had about two players- Seau and Harrison. They had a top corner for a bit too. Someone will inevitably name some other guy but...I swear it was a two or three man D most Sundays.
Harrison laid big hits as good as anyone in history and those players who emulated him are probably why we're discussing hits this way or that way on defenseless WRs. His highlights are like a cartoon.
Andre Johnson is going to always be "punished" for playing for an awful team and the lesser stats because he had to catch the ball with everyone knowing it's coming to him. Calvin was better, no doubt, but Andre had Calvin like days where the Texans shouldn't be winning or even in the game, but he's somehow catching passes to keep them in it. He was tough as nails too. He took so many big shots, likely as teams tried to knock him out of the game, and he would shake off so many of them just like tough RBs do.
If any of these three gotta wait a few years because people are weird about stats being the be all or the hits illegal now or somesuch then fine, but they're all getting in someday.
I like your list.My picks from finalists...
Gates. Peppers, Willis seem like locks
I'd pick one WR of the group. Right now I have Holt ahead of Johnson and Wayne
5th is a tossup between remaining WRs, Allen, or the two safeties. I'll say Darren Woodson
There have been 25 players that have scored 100 TD. The only one that will struggle to get into the HOF is Shaun Alexander. Gates scored 116 times. That’s 23 more than Gronk. I don’t see how Gates doesn’t get in at some point.I like your list.My picks from finalists...
Gates. Peppers, Willis seem like locks
I'd pick one WR of the group. Right now I have Holt ahead of Johnson and Wayne
5th is a tossup between remaining WRs, Allen, or the two safeties. I'll say Darren Woodson
Gates, while a personal favorite, was pretty inconsistent over the course of his career. He had a few epic seasons and a lot of above average ones. Never had 100 receptions. Only broke 1K yards twice. Injured in 5 seasons.
I don’t think he’s quite there, but he may make it. Unsure.
The bolded is key. I don’t know if he’s a 1st ballot.There have been 25 players that have scored 100 TD. The only one that will struggle to get into the HOF is Shaun Alexander. Gates scored 116 times. That’s 23 more than Gronk. I don’t see how Gates doesn’t get in at some point.
He’s got a solid case.Here are the quarterbacks that Andre Johnson had throwing him the ball in his 12 seasons in Houston: David Carr, Tony Banks, Dave Ragone, Matt Schaub, Sage Rosenfels, T.J. Yates, Case Keenum, Ryan Fitzpatrick and Ryan Mallett.
There were only 2 QB Pro Bowl seasons, both from Schaub. And despite that collection of never-was QBs he spent a couple of seasons regarded as the best receiver in the league.
His TD totals in particular were hurt by the QB play. I have quite a few old Texans games that I'll watch during the offseason when sports are slow. The sheer number of times he beat everyone on the defense by several yards but had to stop (not slow down, literally stop) and wait for Schaub's pass because Schaub couldn't throw it deep, resulting in the defense catching up to him by the time the ball got there, really stood out at the time, and I see it time and again watching those old games now.
When it comes to his very best seasons, Johnson's rarified seasons were on par with Jerry Rice and Marvin Harrison. Not that he was as good as Rice or had as good of a career, but AJ put up those rarified totals similarly.
Johnson had five seasons with at least 100 catches. That’s one more than Rice and Marvin Harrison and two more than Cris Carter and Randy Moss.
Johnson had three seasons with 1,500 receiving yards, which is tied with Harrison and one behind Rice.
And Johnson had three seasons with at least 100 catches and 1,500 receiving yards, which is tied with Harrison and one more than Rice.
I'm absolutely a homer stumping for a first Texan to go into the Hall, I will admit. But he was the best receiver in football for a stretch, and was a top one for most of his career despite playing most of it with subpar quarterbacking.
I like your list.My picks from finalists...
Gates. Peppers, Willis seem like locks
I'd pick one WR of the group. Right now I have Holt ahead of Johnson and Wayne
5th is a tossup between remaining WRs, Allen, or the two safeties. I'll say Darren Woodson
Gates, while a personal favorite, was pretty inconsistent over the course of his career. He had a few epic seasons and a lot of above average ones. Never had 100 receptions. Only broke 1K yards twice. Injured in 5 seasons.
I don’t think he’s quite there, but he may make it. Unsure.
You’re welcome.This take on Gates is one of the worst I have read in this forum in quite some time.
• not a lot of competition for targets - he was hyper-targeted on teams that played from behind.
You’re welcome.This take on Gates is one of the worst I have read in this forum in quite some time.
I spelled it out pretty well in my follow-up post.
If that’s the worst take you’ve read, then you haven’t read much of this forum.
Go look at TGonz numbers and get back to me. Gates has TDs. His receptions, yards, and availability all pale in comparison.
• not a lot of competition for targets - he was hyper-targeted on teams that played from behind.
He was clearly the Texans best weapon by far, but his targets are not all that dissimilar to what Holt and Wayne got despite playing in offenses with more stars, and with vastly superior QBs. Holt was basically even with him, with Wayne a little behind both.
For example, top five target seasons for each player
AJ: 181, 171, 171, 163, 162 = 848
Holt: 183, 179, 163, 160, 149 = 834
Wayne: 195, 175, 156, 149, 137 = 812
AJ: 1739 in 197 games = 8.8 targets/game
Holt: 1560 in 173 games = 9.0 targets/game
Wayne: 1714 in 211 games = 8.1 targets/game
The most Andre had to keep defenses from focusing solely on him was 4 good season from Arian Foster. His best #2 receiver was Kevin Walter who was on par with the Rams #3 WR Az-Zahir Hakim at best.
Holt had Marshall Faulk and Isaac Bruce keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
Wayne had Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
So targets are fairly close, but Andre had to do what he did with far worse QB play and with defense more often focusing on him.
Really the only thing I think Wayne and Holt have over Andre Johnson's on field play, is rings. But then they played on teams that the Texans could barely even compare to. Texans only had one season you could even start to compare to those Rams and Colts teams overall. And that season which looked to be heading towards a #1 seed in the AFC, was brought to a screeching halt by Albert Haynesworth taking out Matt Schaub's foot in a pile.
Cool.You’re welcome.This take on Gates is one of the worst I have read in this forum in quite some time.
I spelled it out pretty well in my follow-up post.
If that’s the worst take you’ve read, then you haven’t read much of this forum.
Go look at TGonz numbers and get back to me. Gates has TDs. His receptions, yards, and availability all pale in comparison.
I read your posts before I responded. I stand by my take. The more you post about this, the worse you look, so by all means, carry on.
• not a lot of competition for targets - he was hyper-targeted on teams that played from behind.
He was clearly the Texans best weapon by far, but his targets are not all that dissimilar to what Holt and Wayne got despite playing in offenses with more stars, and with vastly superior QBs. Holt was basically even with him, with Wayne a little behind both.
For example, top five target seasons for each player
AJ: 181, 171, 171, 163, 162 = 848
Holt: 183, 179, 163, 160, 149 = 834
Wayne: 195, 175, 156, 149, 137 = 812
AJ: 1739 in 197 games = 8.8 targets/game
Holt: 1560 in 173 games = 9.0 targets/game
Wayne: 1714 in 211 games = 8.1 targets/game
The most Andre had to keep defenses from focusing solely on him was 4 good season from Arian Foster. His best #2 receiver was Kevin Walter who was on par with the Rams #3 WR Az-Zahir Hakim at best.
Holt had Marshall Faulk and Isaac Bruce keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
Wayne had Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
So targets are fairly close, but Andre had to do what he did with far worse QB play and with defense more often focusing on him.
Really the only thing I think Wayne and Holt have over Andre Johnson's on field play, is rings. But then they played on teams that the Texans could barely even compare to. Texans only had one season you could even start to compare to those Rams and Colts teams overall. And that season which looked to be heading towards a #1 seed in the AFC, was brought to a screeching halt by Albert Haynesworth taking out Matt Schaub's foot in a pile.
With all due respect, IMO this is not compelling. If this is his best HOF case, IMO he is not a HOFer.
Cool.You’re welcome.This take on Gates is one of the worst I have read in this forum in quite some time.
I spelled it out pretty well in my follow-up post.
If that’s the worst take you’ve read, then you haven’t read much of this forum.
Go look at TGonz numbers and get back to me. Gates has TDs. His receptions, yards, and availability all pale in comparison.
I read your posts before I responded. I stand by my take. The more you post about this, the worse you look, so by all means, carry on.
Thanks for the insults. We can disagree over whether he’s 1st ballot without being rude. Shame you went there. I used to like you.
Have a nice evening.
• not a lot of competition for targets - he was hyper-targeted on teams that played from behind.
He was clearly the Texans best weapon by far, but his targets are not all that dissimilar to what Holt and Wayne got despite playing in offenses with more stars, and with vastly superior QBs. Holt was basically even with him, with Wayne a little behind both.
For example, top five target seasons for each player
AJ: 181, 171, 171, 163, 162 = 848
Holt: 183, 179, 163, 160, 149 = 834
Wayne: 195, 175, 156, 149, 137 = 812
AJ: 1739 in 197 games = 8.8 targets/game
Holt: 1560 in 173 games = 9.0 targets/game
Wayne: 1714 in 211 games = 8.1 targets/game
The most Andre had to keep defenses from focusing solely on him was 4 good season from Arian Foster. His best #2 receiver was Kevin Walter who was on par with the Rams #3 WR Az-Zahir Hakim at best.
Holt had Marshall Faulk and Isaac Bruce keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
Wayne had Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
So targets are fairly close, but Andre had to do what he did with far worse QB play and with defense more often focusing on him.
Really the only thing I think Wayne and Holt have over Andre Johnson's on field play, is rings. But then they played on teams that the Texans could barely even compare to. Texans only had one season you could even start to compare to those Rams and Colts teams overall. And that season which looked to be heading towards a #1 seed in the AFC, was brought to a screeching halt by Albert Haynesworth taking out Matt Schaub's foot in a pile.
With all due respect, IMO this is not compelling. If this is his best HOF case, IMO he is not a HOFer.
Someone said Andre Johnson "was hyper-targeted on teams that played from behind". I posted the stats which refute that since he had similar targets to his contemporaries.
That's all.
I'm shuked how anyone could interpret that as having been "his best HOF case" instead of a response to a single comment. Which was quoted so the context was completely clear.
Silly me, saying I had “one of the worst takes” you’ve seen here felt a little insulting.I didn't post any insults,
• not a lot of competition for targets - he was hyper-targeted on teams that played from behind.
He was clearly the Texans best weapon by far, but his targets are not all that dissimilar to what Holt and Wayne got despite playing in offenses with more stars, and with vastly superior QBs. Holt was basically even with him, with Wayne a little behind both.
For example, top five target seasons for each player
AJ: 181, 171, 171, 163, 162 = 848
Holt: 183, 179, 163, 160, 149 = 834
Wayne: 195, 175, 156, 149, 137 = 812
AJ: 1739 in 197 games = 8.8 targets/game
Holt: 1560 in 173 games = 9.0 targets/game
Wayne: 1714 in 211 games = 8.1 targets/game
The most Andre had to keep defenses from focusing solely on him was 4 good season from Arian Foster. His best #2 receiver was Kevin Walter who was on par with the Rams #3 WR Az-Zahir Hakim at best.
Holt had Marshall Faulk and Isaac Bruce keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
Wayne had Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
So targets are fairly close, but Andre had to do what he did with far worse QB play and with defense more often focusing on him.
Really the only thing I think Wayne and Holt have over Andre Johnson's on field play, is rings. But then they played on teams that the Texans could barely even compare to. Texans only had one season you could even start to compare to those Rams and Colts teams overall. And that season which looked to be heading towards a #1 seed in the AFC, was brought to a screeching halt by Albert Haynesworth taking out Matt Schaub's foot in a pile.
With all due respect, IMO this is not compelling. If this is his best HOF case, IMO he is not a HOFer.
Someone said Andre Johnson "was hyper-targeted on teams that played from behind". I posted the stats which refute that since he had similar targets to his contemporaries.
That's all.
I'm shuked how anyone could interpret that as having been "his best HOF case" instead of a response to a single comment. Which was quoted so the context was completely clear.
We are posting in a HOF thread, and this splinter of the thread came from discussion about whether or not Johnson is HOF worthy. You posted target data but also posted about the quality of his QB play and teammates and posted comments about "the only thing Wayne and Holt have" over Johnson.
Taken all together, it seemed like you were commenting on Johnson's HOF worthiness, not just target stats.
Seems like a big ask.Let's have better discussion than doing that.
• not a lot of competition for targets - he was hyper-targeted on teams that played from behind.
He was clearly the Texans best weapon by far, but his targets are not all that dissimilar to what Holt and Wayne got despite playing in offenses with more stars, and with vastly superior QBs. Holt was basically even with him, with Wayne a little behind both.
For example, top five target seasons for each player
AJ: 181, 171, 171, 163, 162 = 848
Holt: 183, 179, 163, 160, 149 = 834
Wayne: 195, 175, 156, 149, 137 = 812
AJ: 1739 in 197 games = 8.8 targets/game
Holt: 1560 in 173 games = 9.0 targets/game
Wayne: 1714 in 211 games = 8.1 targets/game
The most Andre had to keep defenses from focusing solely on him was 4 good season from Arian Foster. His best #2 receiver was Kevin Walter who was on par with the Rams #3 WR Az-Zahir Hakim at best.
Holt had Marshall Faulk and Isaac Bruce keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
Wayne had Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James keeping people honest, and a HoF QB throwing to him.
So targets are fairly close, but Andre had to do what he did with far worse QB play and with defense more often focusing on him.
Really the only thing I think Wayne and Holt have over Andre Johnson's on field play, is rings. But then they played on teams that the Texans could barely even compare to. Texans only had one season you could even start to compare to those Rams and Colts teams overall. And that season which looked to be heading towards a #1 seed in the AFC, was brought to a screeching halt by Albert Haynesworth taking out Matt Schaub's foot in a pile.
With all due respect, IMO this is not compelling. If this is his best HOF case, IMO he is not a HOFer.
Someone said Andre Johnson "was hyper-targeted on teams that played from behind". I posted the stats which refute that since he had similar targets to his contemporaries.
That's all.
I'm shuked how anyone could interpret that as having been "his best HOF case" instead of a response to a single comment. Which was quoted so the context was completely clear.
We are posting in a HOF thread, and this splinter of the thread came from discussion about whether or not Johnson is HOF worthy. You posted target data but also posted about the quality of his QB play and teammates and posted comments about "the only thing Wayne and Holt have" over Johnson.
Taken all together, it seemed like you were commenting on Johnson's HOF worthiness, not just target stats.
I did comment on his HOF worthiness. But calling it his "best HOF case" , and then claiming that supports a stance of he isn't HOF material, was a total straw man. Let's have better discussion than doing that.
Seems like a big ask.Let's have better discussion than doing that.
Silly me, saying I had “one of the worst takes” you’ve seen here felt a little insulting.
specially since you didn’t bother to take the time to actually refute any of my points. And since I was just saying he’s not 1st ballot, we only disagree on whether he gets in this year or later.
I was only talking about 1st ballot.IMO it is one of the worst takes I have read here about HOF worthiness,
For the love of God man, I’ve written multiple posts about Steve Tasker getting in the HOF over the years and that was the worst HOF worthiness post you’ve ever read??!? I’m not sure whether to be ashamed you’ve forgotten my posts or proud that you’re ready to welcome Tasker into the HOF.Silly me, saying I had “one of the worst takes” you’ve seen here felt a little insulting.
IMO it is one of the worst takes I have read here about HOF worthiness, so I wrote that opinion. I assume that should be obvious, i.e., that is me posting my opinion. I didn't insult you. For example, I didn't say you are stupid, you don't know football, you are a bad poster, etc. Those would be insults. I didn't write any of those things because I don't think any of those things about you.
specially since you didn’t bother to take the time to actually refute any of my points. And since I was just saying he’s not 1st ballot, we only disagree on whether he gets in this year or later.
It wasn't worth my time to refute your points. You have chosen to live on that island, and that is your choice to make. You are entitled to your opinion, it's fine, I don't have any issues with you. Frankly, I'm surprised at your reaction.