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2014 Hall of Famers announced - '15 class now being discussed (1 Viewer)

The fact that Ray Guy hasn't already been inducted in the past still makes zero sense to me... There has not been anyone like him since!

 
Shawn said:
The fact that Ray Guy hasn't already been inducted in the past still makes zero sense to me... There has not been anyone like him since!
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The usual stat nerds will be by shortly to dispute this. They fail to acknowledge that Guy is responsible for the added importance of special teams.

 
Raider Nation said:
zed2283 said:
They had a great special about Ray Guy on last night. Replay Saturday night at midnight.
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That was pretty cool. Mississippi is like a different country. I'm not sure I could get used to the pace of life being that slow.
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I saw that show it was terrific.

Guy was a terrific athlete. Apparently he was a hell of a safety and QB.

One of these days there will be a true QB who can punt the ball on 4th (or any down) and won't have to come out.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Raider Nation said:
zed2283 said:
They had a great special about Ray Guy on last night. Replay Saturday night at midnight.
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That was pretty cool. Mississippi is like a different country. I'm not sure I could get used to the pace of life being that slow.
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I saw that show it was terrific.

Guy was a terrific athlete. Apparently he was a hell of a safety and QB.

One of these days there will be a true QB who can punt the ball on 4th (or any down) and won't have to come out.
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Danny White

 
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Adam Harstad said:
Just Win Baby said:
Adam Harstad said:
Raider Nation said:
Adam Harstad said:
the big takeaway here is that if the NFL wants to elect a special teamer, it needs to nominate Rick Upchurch, not Ray Guy.
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What do you think about Billy "White Shoes" Johnson? Now that Guy has made it, Billy is the sole member of the NFL's 75th Anniversary team who is not in the Hall of Fame. I also thought of Terry Metcalf when you mentioned Rick Upchurch, but browsing his numbers, it seems he was far greater in my mind as a little kid than his production indicates. He sure was exciting and slippery though.
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White Shoes is another excellent choice. I think Upchurch, Johnson, and Mel Gray are the three greatest career returners of all time (setting aside Devin Hester for now- we'll re-evaluate when he retires, but he could easily join that group). I think if the Hall was dead-set on electing a special teamer, any of the three would be a worthy standard-bearer.

When splitting hairs between them, Gray and Upchurch both get an advantage for their hardware- both made the pro bowl 4 times and were 1st-team AP All Pros 3 times, while Johnson only made 3 and 1, respectively. Gray was the most involved on kickoff returns, but he was BY FAR the least involved on offense (263 yards for his entire career). Upchurch and Johnson finished with eerily similar offensive numbers (~4500 yards and 27 TDs), but Upchurch did it over a shorter span and had the best offensive season of the trio in 1979 (950 yards and 7 scores, which actually made him the #14 fantasy receiver that year).

So, Upchurch was the best on offense and the best pure punt returner, but didn't return kickoffs after his first few seasons. White Shoes handled kickoffs off and on, and was also quite involved on offense, but had the fewest awards and wasn't quite as good on punts. Gray was the worst of the trio on punts and did absolutely nothing on offense, but was the best and most prolific kickoff returner of the group, and matched Upchurch in awards.

Really, if the Hall of Famer was dead set on electing a special teamer, I think any one of those trio would be a fitting standard-bearer. I think Upchurch has the best resume of the group, but all three are close and are also head and shoulders above all the other returners, at least until Hester finishes writing his resume.

Edit: I dug up this old post from the PFR blog which has Gray, Upchurch, and Johnson as 3 of the top 4 returners of all time, with the fourth being Brian Mitchell. Mitchell had a really, really long career (especially for a returner), but didn't seem as dominant as the other 3, with a lot less bold text on his PFR page and only 1 pro bowl / 1 first team AP All Pro to his name. With Upchurch rating as the better returner, having more awards, *AND* being more valuable on offense than White Shoes, that seems like a clear edge. From there, it's a question of whether you'd prefer the extra value Gray added as a returner, or you felt that Upchurch's offensive contributions outweighed it.
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It seems silly for any discussion of greatest kick/punt returner to ignore Gale Sayers. He was a better kick and punt returner than Hester and everyone named in your post. And obviously he made a stronger contribution on offense as well.
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Hey JWB, I missed this in February, so sorry for the belated response!

Arguing that Gale Sayers is the best returner in history is akin to arguing that Bo Jackson is the best RB in history (or, I suppose, like arguing that Sayers was the best running back in history). Maybe you could make the case that on a per-touch basis he was, but Sayers had 118 combined returns for his career. And he played in a very return-friendly era. Jim Duncan and Cordarrelle Patterson both have a higher career average relative to the league on about half as many returns. Lynn Chandnois has a pretty comparable average on the same number of returns. Abe Woodson was a contemporary of Sayers and put up very similar numbers in his prime. Jack Christiansen was every bit as good on punt returns as Sayers was on kickoffs. In terms of Career value, Chase ranked Sayers 10th on kickoff returns. He ranked 114th on punt returns, largely because he barely had any. If you add his punt and kickoff value, Sayers scored 931. White Shoes scored 1055. Upchurch scored 1061. Gray scored a 1707 (!!!).

This is a devastatingly thorough comparison of all of the greatest returners in history, and probably the best piece of writing I have ever read on the subject. It has Sayers at #4, which seems fair. He was electric and amazing, but in my mind, he's clearly behind Gray, Upchurch, and Johnson.

Of course, Sayers was also dominant on offense and a worthy Hall of Famer for his contributions there alone. I'm not trying to kick Sayers out of the Hall. I'm just saying, if you want to elect the most valuable special teamer in history, start with one of those three.
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I posted that Sayers was a better returner than everyone mentioned, and he was. The third article you linked agrees, saying he was the most exceptional returner in history. He didn't have the volume of returns the others had, but that doesn't define best/exceptional. So IMO the best kickoff returner in history is already in the HOF.

The NFL chose its 75th anniversary team in 1994. Upchurch's career was over, and Gray's was mostly over. Neither made the team. Sayers was the kick returner and Whiteshoes was the punt returner. When they choose the 100th anniversary team in 2019, does anyone doubt they will have Sayers as the kick returner? I don't. And that is the right choice.

 
Claude Humphrey trying to repeat Larry Allen's great performance at HOF speeches. Probably not the best idea to tell people on national TV that your 2nd daughter was a mistake but still pretty :lol:

 
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Hooper31 said:
zed2283 said:
Hooper31 said:
zed2283 said:
Danny White
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Sammy Baugh & Randall Cunningham
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Sammy Baugh yes, Cunningham no. He just filled in.
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Cunningham was a two time all american as a punter at UNLV. Agreed he didn't have many attempts in the NFL, but the ones he did were more than just respectable. Cunningham could have easily been a teams regular punter.
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Good point. And I'd say a 92-yard punt qualifies as respectable ;)

 
And now the crowd is getting restless.

I think people who ##### about long HOF speech can suck it. This is their moment and probably their last one in his case. Let this man have his shine. I would rather have this kind of speech than those phony sermons at the end. Besides if you are watching the hall of fame on a Saturday you didn't have any damn plans to begin with

 
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There is a balance between "having your moment" and inconveniencing everyone involved by proceeding as slowly as humanly possible.

I'm happy for the guy. Now wrap it up. :shrug:

 
Raider Nation said:
Big Walt was some kinda player.
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He was simply dominant at his craft. Ricky Watters and Shaun Alexander had it relatively easy running behind the open lanes that he paved for them. Nine Pro Bowls and he was flagged for holding nine times in his career.

 
1997 NFL draft:

1.01 - Orlando Pace, STL

1.02 - Darrell Russell, OAK

1.03 - Shawn Springs, SEA

1.04 - Peter Boulware, BAL

1.05 - Bryant Westbrook, DET

1.06 - Walter Jones, SEA

BAL took Ogden at 1.04 in '96. Could you imagine those bookend tackles if one of them was cool with moving to RT? Not even fair.

 
"Now the Hall of Fame has a complete team"

That sentence there really does explain why a punter should be in the Hall of the Fame. And Ray Guy is definitely the best ever

 
I had no idea that Andre Reed played for the Skins in 2000. Man they really did sign every single free agent during that period

 
I wonder if Strahan's HOF bust has an actual gap in them. Just have the image of maintenance workers getting lazy and sticking little pieces of trash in the gap ;)

 
Just Win Baby said:
I posted that Sayers was a better returner than everyone mentioned, and he was. The third article you linked agrees, saying he was the most exceptional returner in history. He didn't have the volume of returns the others had, but that doesn't define best/exceptional. So IMO the best kickoff returner in history is already in the HOF.

The NFL chose its 75th anniversary team in 1994. Upchurch's career was over, and Gray's was mostly over. Neither made the team. Sayers was the kick returner and Whiteshoes was the punt returner. When they choose the 100th anniversary team in 2019, does anyone doubt they will have Sayers as the kick returner? I don't. And that is the right choice.
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Again, though, Sayers is the best kickoff returner in history in the same way that Bo Jackson is the best running back in history, or Rich Jackson is the best defensive end in history. If you want to argue that, you're free to, but you're clearly using the word in a different manner than everyone else in this discussion. When the Hall of Fame says they want to elect the best players, they don't mean "if you could pick any player in his prime to run a single play...", they mean "who had the best career". And Gray, Upchurch, and White Shoes all had better, more productive, more valuable careers as kick returners than Gale Sayers.

 
Adam Harstad said:
Just Win Baby said:
I posted that Sayers was a better returner than everyone mentioned, and he was. The third article you linked agrees, saying he was the most exceptional returner in history. He didn't have the volume of returns the others had, but that doesn't define best/exceptional. So IMO the best kickoff returner in history is already in the HOF.

The NFL chose its 75th anniversary team in 1994. Upchurch's career was over, and Gray's was mostly over. Neither made the team. Sayers was the kick returner and Whiteshoes was the punt returner. When they choose the 100th anniversary team in 2019, does anyone doubt they will have Sayers as the kick returner? I don't. And that is the right choice.
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Again, though, Sayers is the best kickoff returner in history in the same way that Bo Jackson is the best running back in history, or Rich Jackson is the best defensive end in history. If you want to argue that, you're free to, but you're clearly using the word in a different manner than everyone else in this discussion. When the Hall of Fame says they want to elect the best players, they don't mean "if you could pick any player in his prime to run a single play...", they mean "who had the best career". And Gray, Upchurch, and White Shoes all had better, more productive, more valuable careers as kick returners than Gale Sayers.
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I don't agree. I don't agree that it is clear that Bo was the most exceptional RB of all time. I don't agree that Jackson was the most exceptional DE of all time. But Sayers was the most exceptional returner of all time. So you are comparing apples and oranges here.

Furthermore, when the HOF says they want to elect the best players, by my way of thinking, that pretty much eliminates players who excelled only as kick returners.

:shrug:

 
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Just Win Baby said:
Furthermore, when the HOF says they want to elect the best players, by my way of thinking, that pretty much eliminates players who excelled only as kick returners.

:shrug:
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I would agree there. The value that a kick returner adds to his franchise- even an elite, best-in-history kick returner- pales in comparison to the value added by merely above-average players on offense and defense, and is positively dwarfed by the value added by elite players at other positions. I never intended to argue that the Hall of Fame should start electing kick returners.

I was attempting to address this idea (usually linked to Ray Guy, occasionally linked to Steve Tasker) that since special teams is represented in real football, it should be represented in the Hall of Fame. To be clear, I do not agree with that idea. With that caveat aside, if we were to entertain the idea that special teams deserved representation in Canton simply because they existed, then we should not start by electing punters or gunners. My contention is that top returners are more valuable than top punters and top gunners, so if we really wanted to start electing players based on their special teams contributions (and, again: I do not want to do that, but for the sake of argument if we assume that I did), we should elect Rick Upchurch, not Ray Guy. Rick Upchurch, Mel Gray, and Billy Johnson all added more value to their respective franchises over the course of their careers than Ray Guy did. (They also added more value than Gale Sayers did, if we restrict ourselves solely to their special teams contributions- though restricting ourselves in that manner amounts to punishing Sayers for being so good on offense that his team didn't want to use him on special teams.)

 
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