I agree that it wasn't an optimal use of their resources/assets, but the deal looks pretty decent in a vacuum now. Given how Wiggins has developed it's tough to argue he would be more of a contributor to the Cavs than Love. And I say that as someone who has never relinquished my membership in the "Kevin Love is overrated" club.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Capella
- Start date
- Status
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Wiggins himself might not be more of a contributor than Love (and I question that, particularly on the defensive end and due to Love's pension for getting hurt and missing time), but having him on a 1st contract rather than Love on a max deal would have allowed them to do a lot more with their roster. James probably would have wasted the cap space on some other non-difference maker player, but at least they'd have had the room. I believe there were other parts to that deal (Bennett got shipped out too right?) but I figure they could have dumped those salaries somewhere else pretty easily.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
To have room to bring in more guys who can help him win championships.
It's like what Tobes was saying above - you can never pay the guy what he's really worth with the salary cap. At that point when do you sacrifice the ego boost you derive from your salary standing to gain the ego boost of winning more rings?
Last edited by a moderator:
Is there any evidence Wiggins can defend? Genuinely asking - hasn't looked good in the handful of times I've seen him and his defensive rating has always been bad. Maybe playing with Lebron would be a better motivator. And of course, I think Love has definitively proven himself as a Curry stopper at this point.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bobcat10
Footballguy
The true superstars are underpaid to start out. Hard to blame them for wanting to rake when they can. I still appreciate the guy who takes less for the benefit of the team. These guys make more than they, and their families/children, will ever need (assuming proper financial management).
In Lebron's case, he's been clear about wanting to play for the max as the cap rises and rises by signing short contracts. That also gives him the opportunity to sign for less whenever he wants if he so chooses for a short period of time. I'm not aware of him ever saying that, so it's possible he never will, but it is something to consider since nobody ever mentions it. With the Cavs being so far into the cap, I'm not sure how much it matters at this very moment.
In Lebron's case, he's been clear about wanting to play for the max as the cap rises and rises by signing short contracts. That also gives him the opportunity to sign for less whenever he wants if he so chooses for a short period of time. I'm not aware of him ever saying that, so it's possible he never will, but it is something to consider since nobody ever mentions it. With the Cavs being so far into the cap, I'm not sure how much it matters at this very moment.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Would have to replay everything back but I don't think that is the case. They are/were so far over the cap that even removing $20M of Love wouldn't have changed anything.
Tau837
Footballguy
See, my theory is that he caught hell for these reasons:
- He was the first superstar to do this in recent memory. And not just superstar, he was already a Magic-Jordan-caliber superstar
- He left his home town/state team to do it.
- He staged a TV show to do it, which no one else had done and came across as massive ego. Then, on that TV show, he announced it by saying he was "taking his talents to South Beach," which was annoying or arrogant or both and also offered nothing conciliatory to Cleveland fans.
- When he got there, he, Wade, and Bosh did the whole not 2, not 3, etc. thing. More annoying/arrogant behavior.
- He cared that he caught hell and let it show, which just fueled it.
Tau837
Footballguy
Exactly. What is more important to him now, $30M in a given season or a championship in that season? He is one of the few professional athletes alive who doesn't really need to care much about foregoing $30M.
He would also probably have a lot more fun playing on a superteam than on a team where he has to work as hard as he does on the Cavs. By comparison, it sure looks like the Warriors are enjoying themselves a lot more.
Capella
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Like I said I don't think he can cut his salary, but even if he could Im not sure that frees up all that much space because of how the cap works. And even if it did im not sure there's a move that would make them favorites over the Warriors, or a team he could join that would be favored.
The latter is actually an interesting question. Maybe Celtics and then try to win on depth? Maybe Clippers? Maybe Spurs and put Aldridge at the 5 or Kawhi at the 2? The Warriors are just so much better than everyone, so there's really no way anyone else can be the favorite at this point.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I thought that remembered the players association putting some pressure on him and some of the other "superstars" to take their max salaries. They didn't want to set too much of a precedence on players taking big discounts.
Tau837
Footballguy
Yes, the Cavs cap situation likely means he has to leave to do this now. IMO Spurs + Lebron could be favored over the Warriors.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Captain Jack:
I can’t speak for nobody else. Me personally, I’ve done a lot of #### before games sometimes and still was able to go out there and be productive. I just gotta be real, you know, it’s been a couple games where I smoked before games and had great games. It’s been some games where I smoked before the game and was on the bench after three minutes sitting on the sideline, ‘please calm down, this high has to calm down,’ I done shot three shots that went over the backboard, like, I’m going to be honest, like ‘ahh, I gotta calm down.’
Jackson told a pair of stories about the friendship he, Baron Davis, and former Warriors coach Don Nelson all shared, one of which was about them getting drunk on Scotch the night before the first game of the season, and the other involved Nelson celebrating the last drug test of the season with Jackson and Davis:
Nobody knows this story, so this is the first time somebody is hearing this. We’re in Utah and the drug test people are around, you know, to get our last drug test so we can smoke, right? Don Nelson, we talked about weed all the time, he was cool with talking about weed. We got our last test in Utah, right? So me and Baron are coming out the locker room just screaming, excited with our last pink slip saying we could smoke for the rest of the season and Don Nelson hauls *** down there giving us hi-fives like, “yeah, we can smoke now!” It was cool, the fact that he knows what’s going on off the court with his players, which was great man. We enjoyed it. That’s why we were a great team.
I can’t speak for nobody else. Me personally, I’ve done a lot of #### before games sometimes and still was able to go out there and be productive. I just gotta be real, you know, it’s been a couple games where I smoked before games and had great games. It’s been some games where I smoked before the game and was on the bench after three minutes sitting on the sideline, ‘please calm down, this high has to calm down,’ I done shot three shots that went over the backboard, like, I’m going to be honest, like ‘ahh, I gotta calm down.’
Jackson told a pair of stories about the friendship he, Baron Davis, and former Warriors coach Don Nelson all shared, one of which was about them getting drunk on Scotch the night before the first game of the season, and the other involved Nelson celebrating the last drug test of the season with Jackson and Davis:
Nobody knows this story, so this is the first time somebody is hearing this. We’re in Utah and the drug test people are around, you know, to get our last drug test so we can smoke, right? Don Nelson, we talked about weed all the time, he was cool with talking about weed. We got our last test in Utah, right? So me and Baron are coming out the locker room just screaming, excited with our last pink slip saying we could smoke for the rest of the season and Don Nelson hauls *** down there giving us hi-fives like, “yeah, we can smoke now!” It was cool, the fact that he knows what’s going on off the court with his players, which was great man. We enjoyed it. That’s why we were a great team.
mr. furley
Footballguy
are most NBA fans too young to remember the Barkley/Olajuwon/Drexler Rockets? The Barkley/Malone/Erving Sixers? The Magic/Kareem/Worthy Lakers? The Bird/McHale/Parrish Celtics? hell, the entire Russell era Celtics roster?ETA: He may also be pissy that he caught more hell for teaming up with two top 15ish players than Durant and the Warriors are catching for pairing the second and third best players in the league with two other top 15ish guys, which is just insane and like nothing we've ever seen. Like he took the fall for all of them and now they get the spoils. Just a theory
why is Lebron + a couple nice but not great players causing such uproar?
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Exactly. It's always funny how some folks are so quick to criticize athletes for not taking $30M discounts. Especially in a league with a soft cap where teams can spend virtually as much as they want.
I don't think anyone is criticizing Lebron for taking the $30MM. But when that $30MM player starts #####ing about needing help on a team with the highest payroll in the league, it is fair to point out that more help could be obtained if said player didn't elect to take the $30MM.
(Not at all saying that's what he should've done, but his ranting about an unfilled 15th roster spot is misguided at best.)
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
This was Lebron's original quote:
“It’s like when you don’t have bodies. It’s tough,” LeBron James told reporters after last night’s loss. “The ####ing grind of the regular season. We’re a top-heavy team. We have a top-heavy team. We top-heavy as ####.”
I don't think he was calling out the front office (he later said in a tweet that he wasn't, though surely people can lie after the fact). I think LeBron works as hard as anyone in the league, maybe harder, on conditioning. He's getting older and I'm sure it's getting harder. He was tired and cranky and just saying that he wished they had more balance. He's number 1 in MPG and older than most at the top (as Tobias mentioned, I think). I honestly don't think that he was criticizing the front office, though I do agree that him wanting to get all of "his guys" on the team makes it difficult for them to maneuver. In the end, I don't see it as that big of a deal.
“It’s like when you don’t have bodies. It’s tough,” LeBron James told reporters after last night’s loss. “The ####ing grind of the regular season. We’re a top-heavy team. We have a top-heavy team. We top-heavy as ####.”
I don't think he was calling out the front office (he later said in a tweet that he wasn't, though surely people can lie after the fact). I think LeBron works as hard as anyone in the league, maybe harder, on conditioning. He's getting older and I'm sure it's getting harder. He was tired and cranky and just saying that he wished they had more balance. He's number 1 in MPG and older than most at the top (as Tobias mentioned, I think). I honestly don't think that he was criticizing the front office, though I do agree that him wanting to get all of "his guys" on the team makes it difficult for them to maneuver. In the end, I don't see it as that big of a deal.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
No. LeBron taking a discount would have done nothing for the team as they were over the cap.
So if Lebron had taken $10MM instead of $30MM, could they not have used that $20MM on another player because they are over the cap? If so, then no it doesn't matter. If they can still spend that same amount, then it would indeed matter as they'd have Bron at $10MM plus $20MM invested in (presumably) better players. I'm not intimately familiar with the Cavs cap situation, other than how far over the cap they are. I thought teams could spend what they choose, but simply pay an additional tax when exceeding the max cap line.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Nope. You can (almost) always re-sign your own players regardless of the cap. You cannot sign free agents if you're over the cap (other than exceptions alloted to every team).
Last edited by a moderator:
Not sure exactly sure, but remember reading they're saving something like $20-25K in salary/tax for every day that spot remains unfilled.
There ya go....that's right. So it likely wouldn't have mattered what Lebron had taken.
Well clearly he's just frustrated, but the whole 15th roster spot seems silly to publicly address.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Yeah, the 15th spot argument is pretty dumb. It is a smart move both financially and basketball wise to keep that roster spot open. Right now all they could do is get a D league plug on a min deal which would cost them that salary X 2 or 3 because of the tax. Come trade deadline and players get bought out, they have a roster spot to add a vet on a minimum deal.
sports_fan
Footballguy
No, Wiggins is a below average defender. I love the guy but he hasn't improved significantly in any area over the past few years.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Most teams don't carry 15 active. Heck, I think many go with 13.
His problem isn't roster composition at this point, it's personnel utilization. If he wants less minutes he should get less minutes. Run him and Irving together less so they always have a playmaker out there if they're really concerned about that. They might lose an extra 2 games or so, but it'd be well worth it to save the wear and tear on him in the long run. Someone over there needs to have a "what would Pop do" conversation and make that happen.
sports_fan
Footballguy
I think I read somewhere he scores more points in the 4th quarter than he does in the entire game.
the moops
Footballguy
Sounds like fake news. Maybe stay away from CNN
He is averaging 10 pts per 4th quarter. He is averaging 30 per game, so no, he is not scoring more in the 4th than the rest of the game
9 wins in a row, including games against GS, the Rockets and now a blowout win vs the Hawks. Without Winslow, Richardson or Chris Bosh. The Dragic and Waiters backcourt has been very good. James Johnson is having a career year. They were a shoe-in for a high draft pick a month ago and Dragic was open to a trade. I don't think they'll keep it up but, it's fun to watch them play as a team.
On The Rocks
Footballguy
He really is fun to watch. I only wish the C's would go out and get someone to help him. Come playoff time, teams are going to be locking down on him and it won't be pretty.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Lebron should have drafted Embiid when he had the chance. Guy's money and only getting monier.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Not sure what you were going for here, but I don't think LeBron + anyone is causing an uproar. I don't even think the Curry/Durant Warriors, who are way better than any of those teams were in a given year, is causing an uproar.
Sammy3469
Footballguy
I think they can only have 13 active, but can carry 15. I know the Knicks do this and ferry Ndour and Plumlee back and forth to their Westchester D-League team. The Cavs "problem" is they do in fact have/had a bunch of dead spots. Mo Williams, Anderson, and Smith are effectively dead spots and then you have Jones and Felder who aren't NBA talent at this point. That essentially takes them down to 10 (11 now with Korver) and Love is now hurt. Now granted a lot of this is on LeBron since Anderson, Jones, Williams are all his boys to one extant or another, but he is accurate in that they aren't deep.
My guess is he wants them to use their trade exemptions to bolster the back of the roster.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
which I'm sure they will do because as part of the Korver deal, they created 2 trade exceptions in order to give themselves more flexibility, right?
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
you are fake news!Sounds like fake news. Maybe stay away from CNN
He is averaging 10 pts per 4th quarter. He is averaging 30 per game, so no, he is not scoring more in the 4th than the rest of the game
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
Sure. Love helped him with the title last year.....but don't deny that Embiid would be way monier than Love going forward.
ETA. With Embiid's rookie contract allowing James to go get someone else.
Last edited by a moderator:
Sammy3469
Footballguy
The "problem" is teams aren't just going to give you good guys on good contracts...you sort of have to offer something in return. This is the only reason a Love for Anthony trade has any legs at all since the Cavs would then be able to use those exemptions to bolster the bench.
Kev4029
Footballguy
Last time I heard, within the last month, there were something like 5 teams that had 14 players, every other team had 15. That ebbs and flows with 10 day contracts, but nearly everybody carries a full roster.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
They weren't going to draft anyone with that questionable of a future. Doesn't matter what your crystal ball tells you about Embiid. They've been to 2 championships and won 1 so far, it's getting tough to knock them for what they did.
Your 2nd point is debatable. It's been brought up several times over the last 2 pages regarding Lebron playing for a million / the Cavs keeping Wiggins.
Last edited by a moderator:
Good Posting Judge
Footballguy
Irving/Harden/James/Love/Embiid? Big if true,
Kev4029
Footballguy
Just throwing this out there, not really as a direct response to your post.
The Cavs are about $14.5 million over the luxury tax threshold. If they were to use their biggest exception (Dunleavy at $4.9 million), they would pay that salary (close to $2 million as the season is 60% done), pay $1.75 million for the first $0.5 million of cap, the next $4.4 million of cap would be $18.7 million. So to bring on a mediocre bench player, they would have to pay the remaining $2 million of his salary plus over $20 million in tax. I would scoff at that idea too if I were Dan Gilbert. Even to bring on minimum salary vet (Chalmers or whoever for the rest of the year) would cost them close to $5 million dollars.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Not sure why you guys are wasting so much time talking about the second-best team in the East.
Kev4029
Footballguy
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Derozan is hurt and the team is in a slump. Not that exciting to talk about right now
Sammy3469
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I've been holding off on just drinking myself to death the last couple months because I've got kids to feed, but this would probably put me over the edge.
- Status
Similar threads
