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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (2 Viewers)

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Crisis averted OKC (and Houston for that matter):

The National Basketball Association’s new Collective Bargaining Agreement includes a special provision that grandfathers Houston’s James Harden and Oklahoma City’s Russell Westbrook into the windfall of super-max contract extensions available to several star players this summer, league sources told The Vertical.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources-new-cba-grandfathers-harden-westbrook-into-super-max-contracts-015209385.html

 
Wolves have a chance to climb back into respectability. Won 3 of their last 4. Only 2 of their next 10 games come against teams with winning records (Thunder and Jazz). Also I think LaVine has clearly passed Wiggins on the offensive end. LaVine has shown consistent improvement each year. We just haven't seen that from Wiggins.

 
Wolves have a chance to climb back into respectability. Won 3 of their last 4. Only 2 of their next 10 games come against teams with winning records (Thunder and Jazz). Also I think LaVine has clearly passed Wiggins on the offensive end. LaVine has shown consistent improvement each year. We just haven't seen that from Wiggins.
They are 2.5 games out of the 8th seed. Hard to say anybody is really out of it in the west 

 
I love Jalyen Brown rocking the shorter shorts. The long shorts thing has gone on long enough and never made any sense. I don't think I'm a "get off my lawn type", but playing basketball in baggy capri's seems very restrictive (though, obviously, a couple of people have figured out how to do it well). 

I'm hoping the train rolls right back to nuthuggers.

 
Warriors are going to have a difficult time in the postseason without an interior presence.  Getting manhandled on the boards again today.  

 
Warriors fans - who do you think is better, Durant or Curry? If you could only keep one next round of contracts who would you pick?

 
So, on the illegal substitution, are the announcers correct?  And if so, did the refs actually allow the sub incorrectly, or did Kerr sneak him into the game on Xmas?

 
Time to put on my Abe hat for the Nuggets:

Denver trades Malik Beasley, Jameer Nelson and the Grizzlies first rounder (likely to be around #20) to Miami for Goran Dragic. The Heat are bad but Dragic is playing too well for them to completely tank and he's too old to be part of their rebuild. I think Dragic is one of the most obvious trade candidates in the NBA as he is nearly 31 and has nearly $55 million on his contract after this year, and getting essentially 2 first rounders for him is probably as much as they can get.

Denver trades Kenneth Faried, Wilson Chandler, and Will Barton to the Hawks for Paul Millsap and Kyle Korver The Nuggets almost traded for Millsap this offseason for Faried + picks according to Zach Lowe. Millsap is likely gone from the Hawks after this year and this trade would give them enough firepower to continue to compete next year with 15-20 million in cap space to chase another player this offseason.

If they pulled off both trades, that would give them a nice mid-seed playoff roster with plenty of room to improve:

PG: Dragic, Mudiay
SG: Harris, Murray
SF: Gallinari, Korver
PF: Millsap, Arthur, Hernangomez
C: Jokic, Nurkic

 
I think the Heat would do the first deal, don't really see the impetus for the Hawks to do the second. 
I don't think the Hawks would do it today, but if they are 22-28 in a month or something and sitting in 10th place in the east, I think it is almost a guarantee that they trade Millsap unless they are very confident they can sign him to a team friendly deal. It sounds like they are one of the few teams that are keen on acquiring Faried, and the Hawks have never been fond of a rebuild, so that trade would give them the opportunity to retool on the fly.

Whoever signs Millsap to his next deal is taking a pretty big chance as he will be 32 and undersized for a PF. A near max contract for him unless its very short could be a major cap killer.

 
Kev, you've seen Mudiay now for over a season.  Are you sold?  
I'm not sold but I'm not sold on him being a bust either. Watching him, I'm not always sure where the disconnect is with him. He seems like an instinctive, cerebral player with a great body and plus athleticism but he has a terrible problem of shooting on the way down and he doesn't finish well around bigs and it cripples the rest of his game. My guess is he turns in to a Jrue Holiday/Jeff Teague level PG down the road. Good enough to start on a playoff team but never good enough to lead the team. 

In retrospect, the only players that I may have taken over him are Turner and Booker but Turner would be a precarious fit and Booker hasn't totally sold me either so I'd probably do it all over again.

 
Can anyone explain to me why the Pacers aren't any good?  Seems like a pretty talented roster, with all the pieces you'd need to challenge for the 3 seed in the East.  Is it coaching maybe?

 
Can anyone explain to me why the Pacers aren't any good?  Seems like a pretty talented roster, with all the pieces you'd need to challenge for the 3 seed in the East.  Is it coaching maybe?
Coaching and the talent really isn't good. Not sure why they were hyped in the preseason....Turner and PG13 are the only above average players. 

 
Coaching and the talent really isn't good. Not sure why they were hyped in the preseason....Turner and PG13 are the only above average players. 
I guess that depends on what you consider above average.  I consider Jeff Teague and Thad Young to be above average and both are in their primes And Paul George isn't just above-average, he's one of the five best players in the East.  

Also, Monta Ellis have it all.

I didn't expect them to contend, but I expected more than this.  They look a mess and now they're going full Clippers, whining incessantly about calls.  

 
I'll have to take a look at this tomorrow when I'm at work but interesting exercise:

https://theringer.com/building-a-super-team-to-beat-the-warriors-ad63f1f728eb
I'm bored. We messed around with this almost 6 months ago, but the season has shed some new light on some of these players.

I still think you need to go smallish, but still have somebody that can attack the Warriors inside and spread them out with as many shooters and ball handlers as possible.

Big: Anthony Davis ($5) - Big and mobile on both ends could beat Green inside and out. Ideal "Death Lineup" beater.
Wing: Kawhi Leonard ($5) - Best perimeter defender alive, probably one of the best dozen offensive players.
Wing: Antetokoumpo ($3) - Does everything other than shoot. Defacto PG to limit his shooting deficiencies.
Wing: Jae Crowder ($1) - Great defender who can guard multiple positions and hits his open shots. Danny Green would be a strong consideration as well.
Guard: Avery Bradley ($1) - Another elite defender, good shooter, and handles the ball well even though he isn't really a PG.

I think this lineup would have enough offensive and defensive firepower to keep up with the Warriors. There some small problems offensively, Greek can't shoot, Crowder isn't a great shooter (Curry would "hide" here), nobody to crash the O-boards as hard as Tristan Thompson, but they would match up great defensively and be able to switch just about anything.

If we were building just a best team rather than the best team to beat the death lineup, I would go:

C: Jokic ($1) - As a big, he is 12th in PER, 6th in RPM, 4th in WS/48. Doesn't block shots but is a very good positional defender. The best $1 big available.
PF: Millsap ($4) - Does a little of everything and a lot of defense. If he could raise his 3pt% just a smidge, he would be the ideal complement to Lebron.
SF: Lebron ($7) - Still the best player in the NBA when he wants to be. Both Millsap and Green could cross-match defensively with him to keep him fresh.
SG: Danny Green ($1) - Nobody is happier touching the ball less that has the ability to actually help offensively and play D. Not everybody can throw up 15+ shots a game.
PG: Mike Conley ($2) - Not many cheap two-way PGs available plus I think he could adapt well to other players handling the ball more.

 
I guess that depends on what you consider above average.  I consider Jeff Teague and Thad Young to be above average and both are in their primes And Paul George isn't just above-average, he's one of the five best players in the East.  

Also, Monta Ellis have it all.

I didn't expect them to contend, but I expected more than this.  They look a mess and now they're going full Clippers, whining incessantly about calls.  
The team finished 45-37 last year with a better coach. Teague and George Hill are similar impact wise. Thad Young is a better player than Mahinmi, but Mahinmi was solid in Vogel's system. So I didn't expect them to be tons better unless Myles Turner made a tremendous leap. With that said they're only 3 games below .500 and George is a stud...so they'll probably finish above .500. 

 
I'm bored. We messed around with this almost 6 months ago, but the season has shed some new light on some of these players.

I still think you need to go smallish, but still have somebody that can attack the Warriors inside and spread them out with as many shooters and ball handlers as possible.

Big: Anthony Davis ($5) - Big and mobile on both ends could beat Green inside and out. Ideal "Death Lineup" beater.
Wing: Kawhi Leonard ($5) - Best perimeter defender alive, probably one of the best dozen offensive players.
Wing: Antetokoumpo ($3) - Does everything other than shoot. Defacto PG to limit his shooting deficiencies.
Wing: Jae Crowder ($1) - Great defender who can guard multiple positions and hits his open shots. Danny Green would be a strong consideration as well.
Guard: Avery Bradley ($1) - Another elite defender, good shooter, and handles the ball well even though he isn't really a PG.


I think this lineup would have enough offensive and defensive firepower to keep up with the Warriors. There some small problems offensively, Greek can't shoot, Crowder isn't a great shooter (Curry would "hide" here), nobody to crash the O-boards as hard as Tristan Thompson, but they would match up great defensively and be able to switch just about anything.

If we were building just a best team rather than the best team to beat the death lineup, I would go:

C: Jokic ($1) - As a big, he is 12th in PER, 6th in RPM, 4th in WS/48. Doesn't block shots but is a very good positional defender. The best $1 big available.
PF: Millsap ($4) - Does a little of everything and a lot of defense. If he could raise his 3pt% just a smidge, he would be the ideal complement to Lebron.
SF: Lebron ($7) - Still the best player in the NBA when he wants to be. Both Millsap and Green could cross-match defensively with him to keep him fresh.
SG: Danny Green ($1) - Nobody is happier touching the ball less that has the ability to actually help offensively and play D. Not everybody can throw up 15+ shots a game.
PG: Mike Conley ($2) - Not many cheap two-way PGs available plus I think he could adapt well to other players handling the ball more.
That was my submission 6 months ago and after watching the Dubs that team would seriously DESTROY the current Dubs team. Second chance points is a huge problem for the Dubs and that team would rule the glass.

 
Baloney Sandwich said:
Love watching him play and he is my favorite Celtic but it would probably be best for the team to trade him. 
He seems like a great guy and is a heck of a player, but if they pair him with some other high usage scorer(s), team chemistry will plummet and C's fans will turn on him a bit. He's in the absolute perfect situation for him right now. 

 
Harden and D'Antoni are tailor made for one another. Still even with Harden doing everything one offense it's hard for me to understand how that team is 26-9. Overall, their roster doesn't look that great

 
Hawks actively shopping Thabo, Korver, and Millsap.

OKC seems like a great fit for Korver.

Thabo would fit nice in LA (Brice Johnson and Pierce Pierce for Thabo).

Not sure who all would be aggressively pursuing Millsap other than Denver and Toronto. Boston? Memphis (nothing to offer)?

 
Harden and D'Antoni are tailor made for one another. Still even with Harden doing everything one offense it's hard for me to understand how that team is 26-9. Overall, their roster doesn't look that great
I am not super surprised by their regular season record--as that team is tailor made to win against 2/3 of the teams in the league on any given night due to their run and gun style.   I see them being a very solid regular season team--but I do think they will struggle big time in the playoffs against well coached teams in a best of seven series.   

 
I am not super surprised by their regular season record--as that team is tailor made to win against 2/3 of the teams in the league on any given night due to their run and gun style.   I see them being a very solid regular season team--but I do think they will struggle big time in the playoffs against well coached teams in a best of seven series.   
I somewhat disagree. As constructed I don't think they get past GS in a 7 game series, but they're sure as #### going to be more of a handful than the last couple iterations of this Rockets team. MDA, no Dwight, and a ####load of shooters seems like a near-ideal setup if Harden's your superstar.

 
I somewhat disagree. As constructed I don't think they get past GS in a 7 game series, but they're sure as #### going to be more of a handful than the last couple iterations of this Rockets team. MDA, no Dwight, and a ####load of shooters seems like a near-ideal setup if Harden's your superstar.
I could see that--I see them getting past the first round pretty easily (unless they somehow play the clippers).   However--I could easily see them not getting past either a healthy clippers team, a healthy Spurs team, or a healthy Warriors team.   I could also see them having a long series (albeit I see them winning) against teams like Memphis or Utah.  

 
Hawks actively shopping Thabo, Korver, and Millsap.

OKC seems like a great fit for Korver.

Thabo would fit nice in LA (Brice Johnson and Pierce Pierce for Thabo).

Not sure who all would be aggressively pursuing Millsap other than Denver and Toronto. Boston? Memphis (nothing to offer)?
Toronto really needs to make the push.

Millsap and Korver for Ross (salary matching), Sullinger (expiring), 2-3 young guys (Wright, van Fleet, Poeltl, Siakam, etc) and either their own pick or LACs pick. Not the sexiest platter but it isn't terrible either. The only long term commitment would be Ross who'd have 2 years left at $10M which is a pretty decent price for him.

Gets Toronto a LOT closer to Cleveland. 

PG: Lowry/Joseph

SG: Derozan/Powell

SG: Carroll/Korver

PF: Millsap/Patterson

C: JV/Bebe (though I'm guessing it would be a lot of smallball with Millsap and Patterson splitting the 5 when JV sits)

 
I thought the Wolves were somewhat turning it around but nope. Wiggins with the Kobe shooting line (2-for-15) in a lose to the 76ers.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
Toronto really needs to make the push.

Millsap and Korver for Ross (salary matching), Sullinger (expiring), 2-3 young guys (Wright, van Fleet, Poeltl, Siakam, etc) and either their own pick or LACs pick. Not the sexiest platter but it isn't terrible either. The only long term commitment would be Ross who'd have 2 years left at $10M which is a pretty decent price for him.

Gets Toronto a LOT closer to Cleveland. 

PG: Lowry/Joseph

SG: Derozan/Powell

SG: Carroll/Korver

PF: Millsap/Patterson

C: JV/Bebe (though I'm guessing it would be a lot of smallball with Millsap and Patterson splitting the 5 when JV sits)
I really think Toronto should be aggressive pursing something to improve their power forward spot, they are going to be capped out next year with or without somebody like Millsap, so they might as well go all in on somebody.

 
If the Nuggets can find some team still as high on Mudiay as Basketball Twitter seems to be, they should deal him and not think twice about it. 

 
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If the Nuggets can find someone still as high on Mudiay as Basketball Twitter seems to be, they should deal him and not think twice about it. 
I've advocated bringing in a better starting PG for the immediate future, but I also think it is way too early to give up on Mudiay. He is the youngest PG in the NBA with at least 500 minutes (Tyus Jones and Wade Baldwin are just a smidgen younger, Dejounte Murray is half a year younger but they have about 500 minutes combined).

Also, since the Nuggets switched starting lineups to include Jokic and Harris 10 games ago, Mudiay is playing much better and more to his current skill level. He's averaging 16.1/5.5/4.2 per 36 with a .572 TS% and 2.4 TO/36 in those 10 games.

 
I've advocated bringing in a better starting PG for the immediate future, but I also think it is way too early to give up on Mudiay. He is the youngest PG in the NBA with at least 500 minutes (Tyus Jones and Wade Baldwin are just a smidgen younger, Dejounte Murray is half a year younger but they have about 500 minutes combined).

Also, since the Nuggets switched starting lineups to include Jokic and Harris 10 games ago, Mudiay is playing much better and more to his current skill level. He's averaging 16.1/5.5/4.2 per 36 with a .572 TS% and 2.4 TO/36 in those 10 games.
He looked pretty bad again last night :shrug:   

I agree it's way too early to completely write off anybody his age, but it would take some substantial and unusual development for him to become even a league average starter at this point. I think some people are still hung up on their really high predraft grades with him and if the Nuggets could get someone to pay for that perceived potential, they should sell IMO. 

 
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He looked pretty bad again last night :shrug:   

I agree it's way too early to completely write off anybody his age, but it would take some substantial and unusual development for him to become even a league average starter at this point. I think some people are still hung up on their really high predraft grades with him and if the Nuggets could get someone to pay for that perceived potential, they should sell IMO. 
I think you are selling him a bit short. I agree he isn't a good NBA today, but he is showing a lot of the skills necessary to be a good NBA PG and he definitely has the physical attributes necessary. The list of 20 year old PGs who were good NBA players is a list of probably a half a dozen at most (Kyrie, Chris Paul, Magic Johnson...).

Part of the reason he sticks out so bad is because he is getting gobs of playing time, which he was unprepared for coming out of the CBA. The Nuggets have put him in a situation where he is "the man" without the skill set to do that yet. If he were getting backup PG minutes with less responsibility he would look better but instead they have totally thrown him to the wolves. That is a lot of responsibility for a 19 or 20 year old and that is the reason you don't see successful young PGs very often, especially those without an NCAA resume. If he doesn't improve in 2017, I think you'll see the Nuggets start looking to move on, but if he continues his last 10 games (the Kings game you watched notwithstanding), he'll be a solid PG for a long time.

 
Kev4029 said:
, but if he continues his last 10 games (the Kings game you watched notwithstanding), he'll be a solid PG for a long time.
I'm not sure how excited you want to get over that sample size. Looking at his splits by month, he was better offensively in December but only because he had a good month shooting from deep (an outlier given his career performance). That looks like it was offset by him being even worse than usual defensively. Depends on how you define "solid" but my suspicion is that you will always be looking for any upgrade if he's the long term starter. 

 
I'm not sure how excited you want to get over that sample size. Looking at his splits by month, he was better offensively in December but only because he had a good month shooting from deep (an outlier given his career performance). That looks like it was offset by him being even worse than usual defensively. Depends on how you define "solid" but my suspicion is that you will always be looking for any upgrade if he's the long term starter. 
10 games is a wicked small sample size for an NBA player and the schedule has been easy as well, but the spacing is soooo much better with Harris and Jokic out there and Mudiay isn't the focal point of the offense. Lets see if he can keep this up for a bit before you decide that a 20 year old PG is a bust.

 
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