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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away
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DJackson10
Footballguy
guys actually competed against each other not team up. And Chicago built that whole team except for Dennis Rodman through the draft. They didn't go out and sign big name FAs at all. In fact over the years they really haven't. Since Rodman their biggest FA signing was Carlos Boozer. Unless you want to add a past his prime Wade in there now.
DJackson10
Footballguy
I agree but some of the things I'd change is a really hard cap where teams either give up depth and sign multiple big names to big contracts or big names put egos aside and sign smaller contracts so the team can add depth around them. Then I'd put in draft rules. I like the MLB version. Enter after HS or if you go to College have to spend at least 3 yrs. I think that will greatly prove the contenders from the pretenders in college ball. I'd also love the NBA and basketball overall to rework their developmental systems. The D League is a nice idea but I feel more funding needs to be put into it for it to be a successful way to develop guys. Two rules I'd change is making Refs enforce traveling. Almost every player does it today. Next I'd start Ting up players who embellish and start fining them. To get rid of tanking I feel the only way and it will never happen is go World Futboll style and have tiered leagues where teams who suck get relegated to the 2nd tier leagues. That means less money and revenue coming into the teams. Unfortunately I don't see that ever happening so they'd need to enforce some sort of standards where it hits them in their pockets. I'm a big believer teams ran well can draft anywhere where bad teams no matter how good the pick is will stay bad. IMHO that one rookie doesn't have a huge impact. people are chasing the next great player which a lot of these guys really aren't that game changer. I believe key FA signings and trades are a greater impact on a team overall then one rookie.
DJackson10
Footballguy
I'm more in line with a relegation system but that would never work with American Sports. I would however implement draft rules so it wouldn't dilute the good players. Can enter after HS or go to college at least 3 yrs.
DJackson10
Footballguy
Wrong the NBA has had this problem for yrs now. You can't win in the NBA or even have a chance at sniffing the playoffs without a legit Superstar. 2 to even sniff the Conference finals and 3 to have a chance in the finals anymore all because of how some of these teams are set up. You are never gonna get a Tampa Bay Rays like team like MLB did in 08 WS against the Phillies in the NBA. It's just almost impossible especially the blatant favoritism NBA officials give the star players.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
A Tampa bay rays like team?
DJackson10
Footballguy
You also have to convince some fans too. There's fans who will argue watching super teams is fun and entertains them. Well this is the result of Super teams with the rest of the league. Then on top of that they then B**** and moan how their team can't get in the post season without having a Superstar. You can't have it both ways. The NBA also knows fans are fans of individual players not teams. I'm 28 and grew up watching 90s NBA and became a Bulls fan. Still am. Are there individual guys I like? Sure I admit to rooting for Sac of the late 90s early 00s. Who didn't like that team. They were one of the first big time offensive teams. However I stayed true to my own team. Today fans aren't fans of teams despite what said individual might say anymore.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
There are a few exceptions to the rules. The Pistons, but this is a rare exception.
Short Corner
Footballguy
The 96 Bulls had two starters (Jordan/Pippen) that they drafted and a total of three players (+Kukoc) in their 9-man rotation.
PG Harper FA
SG Jordan Drafted
SF Pippen Drafted
PF Rodman FA
C Longley Trade
B Kukoc Drafted
B Kerr FA
B Salley FA
B Wennington FA
Deep Bench had Buechler, Edwards and Brown, all FA signees. Only other player they drafted on that squad was rookie Jason Caffey
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DJackson10
Footballguy
"Fans" are more loyal to individual players these days then teams. How many people did you see wearing LeBron Heat Jerseys after he left Cleveland? Here in Philly I think I saw more people wearing Wade/Lebron Jersey's then 76er jerseys. Then he goes back to Cle how many fans after he went to Cleveland that first year did you see wearing Mia Paraphernalia? The NBA fan is so divided today. It's gotten to where you either Love LBJ or hate him. I don't like the player because well I'm a Bulls fan and he played and plays again for a division rival. I live in Philly and some of my friends and a blog I go to some can't fathom why I don't like LeBron. I said LeBron players for a Div rival and is like the evil empire. To put it in terms of football we both could agree too that'd be like me rooting Zeke on the Cowboys being an Eagles fan. lebron isn't a division rival. I've said numerous times to 76ers fans they are lying if they don't agree if LeBron played for the Celtics, Knicks, Nets or Raptors they wouldn't be liking him like they do now. Either way fans have ZERO TEAM LOYALTY ANYMORE. Being a fan of a team is a dying breed. Not many of us left. When a casual like yourself can call the finals of a League before the season that IMHO is a huge problem for the league.
DJackson10
Footballguy
Wasn't Stern still comes then? Yeah someone in my Football league this year tried trading Jamal Charles to someone for one of their top picks next year. We're in a keeper league where we keep 4 guys. Dude tried to defend his move and the league wasn't having any of it. Personally I think the whole pick trading system in the NBA is one huge clusterf*** that needs to be reworked. I get protecting teams and all but at the same time teams seam to be able to trade multiple round picks in the same year and that pick floats around to different teams. I'd make it so you couldn't do that.
DJackson10
Footballguy
I think one of Playoff changes and someone can correct me if I'm wrong but the conferences should rank playoff teams by records and the 3 divisions winners should get the top seeds. I think that could help. Say You have the Cavs in the Central win their division but say Chicago Finishes 2nd but only a game or two back. Record wise they are the 2nd best Eastern Conference team but then say Bos wins in the Atlantic and Mia in the South but neither one record wise was as good as the Bulls. Why should either of those two teams even though they won their Division be ahead of a team with a better record? I get giving Div winners a reward but being in the Playoffs is a good enough award IMHO. I;d also maybe implement Wild Card teams in each conference instead of having like 8 teams. Thats half the Conf each basically making the playoffs and neither conference has 8 teams who should be making the post season.
DJackson10
Footballguy
Definitely. Chicago was at least tested. Who remembers the Ewing Knicks vs the MJ Bulls playoff series? That was a dam war between two teams who wanted to tear each other apart and besides a bump in the road here or there those games were competitive. For people to say yeah but the Jordan Era only the Bulls and then everyone else. That's not the point. The point was at least it was competitive and I do think teams had legit chances of beating the Bulls if a play or two or call goes their way.
DJackson10
Footballguy
Plus the Knicks IMHO had way better players and so did Indy. Pacers had the best Shooter in the NBA at that time and Knicks had Spreewell, Ewing and others. I'd put those Knicks up against anyone but the Cavs in this eras East and bet good money the Knicks would sweep the floor. Also people are forgetting the NBA was way different rules wise. Jordan Rules would get you thrown out of the game today. I would've loved to have seen how LeBron would've adapted to teams playing that way against him. It's one of the reasons why I say James has it much easier then Jordan do to the physicality of the game being less. Some of those 90s and 80s games you could barely tell the difference from NBA rules to street ball. more then half of today's players wouldn't last IMHO in that era with the physicality with how soft they are
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
We've done this a million times. It's a chicken and egg problem- the biggest reason nobody wins without a superstar is that once you start winning everyone's opinion of your best player changes.
And it has very little to do with ref favoritism, it's just the nature of a game where there's only five players on the floor at once. The downside is the almost necessity on ultra- elite talent if you want to build a winner. The upside is the players are well-known to all the fans and when you tune in the stars play a huge role for most of the game.
Every sport is different, this one offers less parity but bigger stars doing more things to affect the outcome of the game. If that's not for you, tune in to watch 3 hours of Mike Trout batting for maybe five minutes or Tom Brady throwing maybe 5-10 downfield passes. I love both those sports too, they just offer something different.
DJackson10
Footballguy
Short Corner
Footballguy
DJackson10
Footballguy
How many of the players on the Rays then would you consider a top Superstar? They had Price and Longoria and that was basically it. I wouldn't back then say either guy was a top 5 player. All Star? Sure but even then there were guys I'd take before them. The Phillies had Utley and who IMHO most underrated and under appreciate player in Phillies last 10-15 yrs Cole Hamels starting. Point is you aren't gonna get a Rays or even Cardinals who won the WS as a WC team in the NBA.
Short Corner
Footballguy
DJackson10
Footballguy
You're right but they did have Ben Wallace who was one of the top bigs in the league at that time. They were a rare exception. I'd hesitate to say the 2000-01 Sac Kings but they had CWebb and Bibby on that team which was better then what Det had.
DJackson10
Footballguy
I meant Big name FAs. Name me a team these days who has won a title in the NBA without a huge name FA signing or trade? Besides Kyrie Cavs bought their title. GS maybe since most of their starting 5 was by draft including their two best players?
The 96 Bulls had two starters (Jordan/Pippen) that they drafted and a total of three players (+Kukoc) in their 9-man rotation.
DJackson10
Footballguy
Short Corner
Footballguy
Simpletons like variance for variance sake so this doesn't surprise me.
Talking about your reference to divison winners locking up the top 3 seeds.
DJackson10
Footballguy
right but you can foul them if they aren't a great 3 point shooter. My biggest problem with Todays league is the lack of physicality. IMHO players are way too soft and babied and bailed out by the officials. I've watched a few of the NBA Classic games during the summers on NBA TV and I'm like wow that wasn't a foul today that's not just a foul but probably a flagrant 1 or 2 there. I mean I love Steph Curry but I got agree with all those old players that him shattering the 3 record he would've had a much tougher time in the old NBA. I personally think in general sports has been wussified because todays generation needs to be pampered and babied and told what a great job they do and comforted. Too many athletes today are so entitled it's not even funny. Most of them haven't even earned what they think they are entitled too.
DJackson10
Footballguy
I think it gives off a better more fair match ups. I forget the teams involved but I remember 4 teams not matched up well awhile back and people and sports analyst were saying if they went by best record these teams wouldn't be playing each other.
Short Corner
Footballguy
Short Corner
Footballguy
So 3/13 drafted, 2 in trades, and 8 free agent signings. Yeah sounds like they were built entirely thru the draft.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
It isn't this black and white. Technically Dirk wasn't drafted as a Mav, Ben Wallace as a Piston. It depends when they were traded for or signed and how good they were when this happened. Which you might still be right, I have no idea.
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Short Corner
Footballguy
2015 Warriors top 10 in MP
1-4 Drafted (Steph/Klay/Draymond/Barnes)
5-6 Trade acquisitions (Bogut/Iggy)
7-10 Free Agents(Livingston signing with his 10th NBA team, Lee, Speights, Barbossa)
Short Corner
Footballguy
The statement that outside of Rodman they were built entirely thru the draft may not be black and white (well...) but we are certainly past any gray area that may or may not exist.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
It's not really moving the goal posts. You said if a team takes the Bulls 6-7 games they are automatically a very good team. So instead I gave you teams that took the LeBron teams far. I don't personally agree with your argument but was trying to make my point with your goalposts.
I don't think the Pacers were a great team at all. They were Reggie Miller and Rik Smits. I think Toronto is a better team. But there's no way to prove it. The Knicks were a similar team to the Pacers. For some reason they did better when Ewing was out. The Cavs were worse than either of those two teams.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I kind of agree, although I maintain this season was unusual in this respect. But maybe the problem is spoiled fans or fans with a skewed perspective. If you can't enjoy a season unless your team has a very good chance of winning a title, that's on you, and it's also a recipe for misery in this era where the major sports have 30 team leagues.
My team this year (Wizards) didn't have a realistic chance at a title at any point this season and I had a ball and consider the season a massive success. I bet lots of other fans would say the same- Bucks fans, Heat fans, Jazz fans, Nuggets fans, Rockets fans once they get over the pain of how they went out, Celtics fans if Boston sports fans hadn't been hopelessly spoiled over the last 15 years ... any others?
DallasDMac
Footballguy
Thanks. Appreciate the perspective. I wish I could view a season the way you do, I would likely enjoy it much more. This season, I was just totally detached because I knew, in my mind that is, exactly how the season was going to pan out. That resulted in a much lower interest factor. On the bright side it saved me a lot of time in front of the TV. Maybe it's just a part of growing older.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
I'm a Celtics fan and happy with this year. ECF and #1 pick is as good as I could hope for. But I was under the impression that once Durant signed in GS they had the championship locked up. I still don't expect the finals to be all that competitive. I think GS wins in 6 at worst. Probably 5. I probably won't watch much of the finals personally. I don't mind LeBron not a huge fan either. But don't really dislike him all that much. Used to like Durant still think he's a great player but mad he joined GS (maybe partially because I was hoping he'd go to Boston). So really don't like GS. Kind of boring when your team has no real shot though.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
No, I didn't. I said they were very good teams that took the Bulls to the limit. They aren't good teams because they did that. Toronto isn't in the same state as those Knick teams or Pacer teams.
You did move the goalposts, because at 1st you said the Pacers, Knicks and Cavs were the same as Boston, Washington and Toronto. Then tried to change it to the Magic, the Celtics from 10 years earlier.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
I think you misread my post. I was making light of your argument that taking the Bulls far made them good teams.
Short Corner
Footballguy
What? Not going to dump Mozgov's contract on them too?Time for some good old Abe level trade talk
LAL gives Ingram, Russell, Deng
IND gives Paul George
Lakers build around Ball, George, and Randle
If I'm Indy I'm asking more for taking on the Deng contract.Time for some good old Abe level trade talk
LAL gives Ingram, Russell, Deng
IND gives Paul George
Lakers build around Ball, George, and Randle
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Guys like Pippen and Dirk are thought of as drafted by the team they first played for because they were acquired via draft-day trades. The NBA's restrictions on trading first-round draft picks make a lot of agreed-upon trades happen after the picks are made. So yeah, technically Pippen and Dirk were acquired via trade, but not in the way intended when people normally refer to trades.
Ben Wallace is a separate case. He went undrafted, and the Pistons were his third team. Technically the Pistons traded for him, but he was really free agent compensation when ORL signed Grant Hill.
Or take LeBron James to Miami. That transaction was technically a trade - CLE got four draft picks from MIA and the transaction is written in league history as a trade - but most think of it as a free agent signing.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
We can settle this once and for all with whatifsports.com.
Best of 7, 2016 Raptors vs. 1994 Pacers: Raptors sweep in 4 games.
Best of 7, 2016 Spurs vs. 1996 Sonics: Spurs sweep in 4 games.
Best of 7, 2016 Wolves vs. 1995 Wolves. 2016 wins in 5 games.
SOLVED. Today is better competition.
Best of 7, 2016 Raptors vs. 1994 Pacers: Raptors sweep in 4 games.
Best of 7, 2016 Spurs vs. 1996 Sonics: Spurs sweep in 4 games.
Best of 7, 2016 Wolves vs. 1995 Wolves. 2016 wins in 5 games.
SOLVED. Today is better competition.
DJackson10
Footballguy
Traded for his draft rights so technically he was drafted. The Bulls Drafted Aldridge but traded him for Tyrus Thomas rights in the same draft. The Sixers didn't technically draft Noel or Saric though if I'm not mistaken Draft rights traded to them. Guys draft rights in NBA being traded are done so much people just refer the team who had them as drafted by them.
DJackson10
Footballguy
I'd also say how good were they in FA? Harper was a good scorer but his scoring went way down in Chi. Salley was part of the Bad Boy Pistons. Either way Chicago didn't tank for their players. They built a really good roster. Their core was drafted to an extent then built around. Teams today focus too much on tanking for that MJ/Lebron and we just don't have a guy like that each year. Let me ask you in the last 10 yrs how many top prospects were worth really tanking for? I believe in the whole Good teams draft well no matter where they are and make good trades and signings. Bad teams stay bad do to poor roster management no matter how much they tank. How bad were the clippers for yrs? Wasn't until they changed management they became good.
DJackson10
Footballguy
I'm a Bulls fan and I agree. Also I had Sixers fans saying just being in the post season wasn't fun. Really because even thought we may not of had a chance with all of Rose out and Deng injured and Noah hurt I enjoyed Nate Robinson lighting up the 4th QTR most pTs in Bulls Post season history in a QTR since MJ, Muhammed going after James? The Buzzered beaters? I still think and say today back when Mia/Chi rivalry was going if Chi had another legit scorer and were healthy could've eliminated Lebrons Cavs. only team in the East who played LeBron the physicality way you should. Tor last year we saw glimpses of that being played. If you can't have some fun and think the only fun is when your team has a chance well you are gonna have a hard time enjoying your team like you said these days.
sports_fan
Footballguy
Good game so far. I think Kyle Anderson is leading the series for largest forehead
DJackson10
Footballguy
Not really at all. You forgot the massive rule changes where even breathing on a guy gets you called for a foul. Which rules are we playing under? Where Physicality is allowed or today's wussified rules?
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