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2016-17 NBA Thread: Finals are over, please go away (2 Viewers)

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Dr. Octopus said:
I do not want to get into the whole Jordan v. LeBron debate (because it does not matter) but let's not re-write history to make your point.

The Bulls beat the following teams in the finals:

Lakers: Magic (admittedly at the end of his career, but still), Worthy, Divac, Perkins

Trail Blazers: Drexler, Porter

Suns: Barkly, Marjerle, K. Johnson, Ainge

Supersonics: Kemp

Jazz (x2): Malone, Russell, Stockton

None of those teams were "weak". Sure they are not the Warriors though either. The Blazers team was likely the worst team out of all of them, but they still a solid team.
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Magic was in his prime in 1991.  He didn't have a decline as a player.  He got an incurable disease that put other players at risk and left the NBA.  Worthy and Scott got hurt during that Finals, and what looked an entertaining long series got short and inevitable.

The best team the Jordan Bulls faced in the Finals was the 96 Sonics.  64-win team where the pieces fit together well and coached by a guy who understood the quirks of the mid-90s NBA rules as well as anyone.  Probably should have listed Gary Payton there, SEA's best player from that era and a first-ballot HOFer.  

 
I don't think Lebron gets enough credit for taking down teams with Kendrick Perkins, Patty Mills and Harrison Barnes on the roster. 

 
Premier said:
I don't think Lebron gets enough credit for taking down teams with Kendrick Perkins, Patty Mills and Harrison Barnes on the roster. 
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No shtick... the thing LeBron doesn't get enough credit for is ending that strong DET run in 2007.  The Pistons were on their way to three Finals in four years, but the 48 Special happened.

That CLE roster 2-9 was one of the worst to make it to a Finals.  It really was a one-man show.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
No shtick... the thing LeBron doesn't get enough credit for is ending that strong DET run in 2007.  The Pistons were on their way to three Finals in four years, but the 48 Special happened.

That CLE roster 2-9 was one of the worst to make it to a Finals.  It really was a one-man show.
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Kills me every time somebody knocks him for losing that finals. His second-best player was...Larry Hughes?

 
Premier said:
Kills me every time somebody knocks him for losing that finals. His second-best player was...Larry Hughes?
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There was a real blog at the time with real information called "Hey Larry Hughes Please Stop Taking So Many Bad Shots". The address was the name: heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com.  It started as the rants of a Cavs fan who didn't like Larry Hughes's shot selection, and turned into an interesting study about volume shooting/scoring and bringing in the efficiency models we take for granted today but weren't widely accepted ten years ago.  IIRC, the profile photo of the blog was a head shot of Brian Fontana with caption, "Larry Hughes's Jump Shot: 35% of the time, it works ALL the time!"

 
LeBron's 2007 trip to the Finals was one of his most impressive feats, second only to last year's championship, IMO.  That team was weak outside of LBJ and beat a very good Pistons team to make it to the finals.

 
msudaisy26 said:
everyone saying Jordan had no competition in the finals
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Whoever thinks this is off base.

  • 1990-91 - Defeated LAL in the Finals. Chicago had the NBA's second best regular season record at 61-21; LAL was third best at 58-24. LAL had HOFers Magic and Worthy and a strong supporting cast.
  • 1991-92 - Defeated Portland in the Finals. Chicago had the NBA's best regular season record at 67-15; Portland tied for second best at 57-25. Portland had HOFer Drexler and a strong supporting cast.
  • 1992-93 - Defeated Phoenix in the Finals. Phoenix had the NBA's best regular season record at 62-20. Chicago was 57-25 and the 2 seed behind the Knicks in the East. Phoenix had first ballot HOFer Barkley in his MVP season and a strong supporting cast.
  • 1995-96 - Defeated Seattle in the Finals. Chicago had the NBA's best regular season record at 72-10; Seattle was second best at 64-18. I guess Payton is the only HOFer who was playing for Seattle, but they had a good roster. Not sure if Karl is a HOF coach.
  • 1996-97 - Defeated Utah in the Finals. Chicago had the NBA's best regular season record at 69-13; Utah was second best at 64-18. Utah had two first ballot HOFers in Stockton and Malone, a HOF coach, and a very good supporting cast.
  • 1997-98 - Defeated Utah in the Finals. Chicago and Utah tied for the NBA's best regular season record at 62-20. Utah had two first ballot HOFers in Stockton and Malone, a HOF coach, and a very good supporting cast.
None of those teams were as good as the Warriors team defeated by the Cavs last year or this year's Warriors team. But to say Jordan faced no competition in the Finals is silly.

 
Just Win Baby said:
Whoever thinks this is off base.

  • 1990-91 - Defeated LAL in the Finals. Chicago had the NBA's second best regular season record at 61-21; LAL was third best at 58-24. LAL had HOFers Magic and Worthy and a strong supporting cast.
  • 1991-92 - Defeated Portland in the Finals. Chicago had the NBA's best regular season record at 67-15; Portland tied for second best at 57-25. Portland had HOFer Drexler and a strong supporting cast.
  • 1992-93 - Defeated Phoenix in the Finals. Phoenix had the NBA's best regular season record at 62-20. Chicago was 57-25 and the 2 seed behind the Knicks in the East. Phoenix had first ballot HOFer Barkley in his MVP season and a strong supporting cast.
  • 1995-96 - Defeated Seattle in the Finals. Chicago had the NBA's best regular season record at 72-10; Seattle was second best at 64-18. I guess Payton is the only HOFer who was playing for Seattle, but they had a good roster. Not sure if Karl is a HOF coach.
  • 1996-97 - Defeated Utah in the Finals. Chicago had the NBA's best regular season record at 69-13; Utah was second best at 64-18. Utah had two first ballot HOFers in Stockton and Malone, a HOF coach, and a very good supporting cast.
  • 1997-98 - Defeated Utah in the Finals. Chicago and Utah tied for the NBA's best regular season record at 62-20. Utah had two first ballot HOFers in Stockton and Malone, a HOF coach, and a very good supporting cast.
None of those teams were as good as the Warriors team defeated by the Cavs last year or this year's Warriors team. But to say Jordan faced no competition in the Finals is silly.
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I agree, I think they are both top 3 all time greats.

 
Dr. Octopus said:
I do not want to get into the whole Jordan v. LeBron debate (because it does not matter) but let's not re-write history to make your point.

The Bulls beat the following teams in the finals:

Lakers: Magic (admittedly at the end of his career, but still), Worthy, Divac, Perkins

Trail Blazers: Drexler, Porter

Suns: Barkly, Marjerle, K. Johnson, Ainge

Supersonics: Kemp

Jazz (x2): Malone, Russell, Stockton

None of those teams were "weak". Sure they are not the Warriors though either. The Blazers team was likely the worst team out of all of them, but they still a solid team.
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No Gary Payton on the Sonic's?

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
What are the three most important things you would provide as evidence suggesting Magic's play in 1991 makes it laughable to suggest he was in his prime?
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You either didn't watch him in the 80's or have a different definition of prime than I the rest of us.  Either way, not really worth the waste of time.

 
Premier said:
Come on man. You just listed Divac, Perkins, Danny Ainge ( :lmao:  ), and Byron Russell (COME ON) to make a point about Jordan's competition?? 

Bad enough you left Gary Payton off the list. 
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So those were weak teams? That's really the only point.

Leaving Payton off was just because I was rushing. Vlade was a decent big man - but the point was these were all good teams.

 
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Bruce Dickinson said:
I agree with this statement.  I would counter it speaks to "peak" and not "prime", but it is a fair assessment.
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prime1

prʌɪm/

adjective
of the best possible quality; excellent.

 



  1. "prime cuts of meat"

     


    top-quality, highest quality, top, top-tier, best, first-class, first-rate, high-grade, grade A, superior, supreme, flawless, choice, select, finest, superlative, peak, optimal, model; More



     
     
     
     

     







     


     







     

     





     










noun
 


  1. 1.


    the state or time of greatest vigour or success in a person's life.
    "you're in the prime of life"






 
I haven't seen anyone say those teams suck. They just don't compare at all to the 6 Warriors and Spurs teams. Decent effort a few of you are putting forth though. 

 
Short Corner said:
You either didn't watch him in the 80's or have a different definition of prime than I the rest of us.  Either way, not really worth the waste of time.
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Short Corner said:
prime1

prʌɪm/

adjective
of the best possible quality; excellent.

 



  1. "prime cuts of meat"

     


    top-quality, highest quality, top, top-tier, best, first-class, first-rate, high-grade, grade A, superior, supreme, flawless, choice, select, finest, superlative, peak, optimal, model; More



     
     
     
     

     







     


     







     

     





     










noun
 


  1. 1.


    the state or time of greatest vigour or success in a person's life.
    "you're in the prime of life"




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:lmao:

 
Just Win Baby said:
Whether or not he was "in his prime," he was 1st team All NBA and 2nd in MVP voting. To dismiss him as a great player in that season, as you seem to be doing here, is way off base.
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He was more interested in disagreeing with me than the actual topic.  

Re: George Karl and the 96 Sonics... Karl was definitely coaching at a HOF level then.  He understood the illegal defense rules well enough to install junk defenses and zone traps hardly anyone else was running at the time.  And with that particular team, he had a really good sense for whether Hawkins or McMillan was the right guy to pair with Payton down the stretch and neither player grumbled about their role.  

Karl declined as a coach when the illegal defense rules relaxed.  The biggest edge he had over his peers became moot and his weaknesses (like designing and calling plays on restarts or end-of-game situations) became bigger factors in the coaching battle.

 
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Dr. Octopus said:
So those were weak teams? That's really the only point.

Leaving Payton off was just because I was rushing. Vlade was a decent big man - but the point was these were all good teams.
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Definitely don't suck and also definitely are nowhere near this GS teams. 

 
Bobcat10 said:
I haven't seen anyone say those teams suck. They just don't compare at all to the 6 Warriors and Spurs teams. Decent effort a few of you are putting forth though. 
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The Heat were massive favorites in 2013 and basically a coinflip in 2014.  Decent effort though.

 
tjnc09 said:
The Heat were massive favorites in 2013 and basically a coinflip in 2014.  Decent effort though.
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Now who was fav and by how much matters? I'll take the Spurs and Pop all day vs these 90s teams. You can take the Suns and Blazers and whoever u want over them. Doesn't matter to me. 

 
Just Win Baby said:
The Warriors fans if they win
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It's kind of weird actually for me.

Since Durant joined the team people have been giving the Dubs the title and it's kind of ruined the season and rematch. 

If the Dubs win, it's because they added Durant. If they lose, then they're in the conversation as some of the biggest chokers ever. The only way people will give the Dubs credit is if they sweep the Cavs (maybe 4-1 with utter domination), but I don't think it will happen.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying they're a lock to win and I'll enjoy if they do win, but I actually would have liked a rematch without KD more due to the "uncertainty" and revenge factor. I know it sounds weird to be complaining about a possible 2nd title in 3 years, but this season and post-season hasn't been as fun as the title year or even the 73 win regular season.

 
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tjnc09 said:
The Heat were massive favorites in 2013 and basically a coinflip in 2014.  Decent effort though.
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That's not what I remember at all.  I recall the Spurs opening around -150 in 2014 and jumping to close to -200 by the time the series started. I remember because I was heavy on them and was trying to talk my FFA NBA buddies to do the same. There's gotta be a way to check that, right?

 
Frostillicus said:
Shawn Kemp was better than Gary Payton and I will fight you about this. 
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Skillwise, Kemp was as close to LeBron as anyone you could name. Payton would be even more valuable in today's hands-off game - tremendous feet and defensive vision. Hard call - Kemp was an idiot but Payton was a very selfish player.

 
wikkidpissah said:
Skillwise, Kemp was as close to LeBron as anyone you could name. Payton would be even more valuable in today's hands-off game - tremendous feet and defensive vision. Hard call - Kemp was an idiot but Payton was a very selfish player.
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No he wasn't. 

 
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It's interesting when people use Jordan's finals record as a knock against Lebron.  "Lebron will never be better than Jordan because.... 6-0."   Lebron lost in the finals at age 25 and 26, while Jordan was still losing in the eastern conference playoffs at age 25, 26, and even 27.  Jordan was taking the same kind of lumps as Lebron, he just wasn't doing it in the Finals.

 
TobiasFunke said:
That's not what I remember at all.  I recall the Spurs opening around -150 in 2014 and jumping to close to -200 by the time the series started. I remember because I was heavy on them and was trying to talk my FFA NBA buddies to do the same. There's gotta be a way to check that, right?
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I have never seen any source that has historical playoff odds, unfortunately.  Certainly, the closing line is the most representative of the true odds of the series since sharps will adjust it appropriately.  

The only site I found showed San Antonio -125, Miami +105 for 2013-14 (53.2%, 46.8% win probabilities), but those listed are opening odds.  

I'm stubborn, but you certainly could be right that the Spurs closed as larger favorites 2013-14.  The Spurs had the best record that year which surprised me the odds were so tight.

I disagree when people talk about how impressive winning against the Spurs was especially because they won 66 games in 2012-13.

 
tjnc09 said:
I have never seen any source that has historical playoff odds, unfortunately.  Certainly, the closing line is the most representative of the true odds of the series since sharps will adjust it appropriately.  

The only site I found showed San Antonio -125, Miami +105 for 2013-14 (53.2%, 46.8% win probabilities), but those listed are opening odds.  

I'm stubborn, but you certainly could be right that the Spurs closed as larger favorites 2013-14.  The Spurs had the best record that year which surprised me the odds were so tight.

I disagree when people talk about how impressive winning against the Spurs was especially because they won 66 games in 2012-13.
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This indicates spurs at -155 at the start of finals. (Posting quickly from phone, so if I'm missing something, don't crucify me)

http://www.sportsoddshistory.com/nba-main/?y=2013-2014&sa=nba&a=finals&o=r

 
Bobcat10 said:
Thank goodness the Mavs did.

That team is probably a better comparison for some of Jordan's opponents.
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I think when LBJ's career is all said and done, his meltdown against Dallas might be looked at as the catalyst for what came after that.  Very few superstars could have bounced back after that series, much less bounced back and been this good since, especially since I can't think of any athlete who has had more pressure on him this century than LeBron James. 

 
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Charlie Harper said:
It's kind of weird actually for me.

Since Durant joined the team people have been giving the Dubs the title and it's kind of ruined the season and rematch. 

If the Dubs win, it's because they added Durant. If they lose, then they're in the conversation as some of the biggest chokers ever. The only way people will give the Dubs credit is if they sweep the Cavs (maybe 4-1 with utter domination), but I don't think it will happen.
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:shrug:   Seems pretty much spot on to be honest. Not sure why it's weird. Seems fair enough.

 
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