2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (2 Viewers)

[Zegras11]

Ok, here the rankings for NHL Defensive Players.

Notes:
I entered the players randomly on my spreadsheet and have no clue how they were picked or who picked them.

I input ranking points in the following criteria:  (points were assigned to the best in each cat from 8 to 16 pts. (8,10,12 and 16 were used) . The counting stats were given points on relative strength compared to the rest of the players.  EX: a 12 pt top score cat might have wound up 12, 11.5, 11.4 9,9,9 6,3,2,etc.).  

Hockey Reference.com was used for stats.  They have a stat for each season and full career on Offensive and Defensive point shares.  These were used but not given much weight. They also have player "similarity scores."  This shows who the similar players were to that player and I was going to use that to break any close final point rankings, but it only really confirmed my point rankings.  So I feel really comfortable with my final rankings, and they did not come out as expected, but I think are correct by going through this exercise I spent a few hours on. 

1) Overall Career - This was a look at games  played, goals, assists, +/-, and awards won during entire career.
2) Great Season Pct - what percentage of a player's years were truly great seasons?  This did hurt some guys that got injured frequently.
3)  Stanley Cups Won -  Great players win more cups. Wasn't given a top weight.
4) Game Dominance - To what degree did this player consistently dominate a single game in his career.  Where his play often dictated whether his team won or lost.
5) Impact of the game of hockey - To what degree did this player change for the better or greatly enhance the game.
6) HockRef.com Offensive Point Shares
7) Hockref.com Defensive Point shares

There wound up being four tiers....

Tier FOUR (the bottom)

#16 (1pt) - Rod Langway  13.6 pts.     Sorry, but this guy should not have come close to making the list.   Housley, Zubov, L.Murphy, Blake, Leetch, Karlsson should all have been considered over him IMO.   His similar player on HocRef.com was Derian Hatcher and Jay Bouwmeester.  yikes!   His Off shares were a total of 7.2   Way below all but one that would have had more if he played a full career in NHL.  Low of 3 All-Star (AS) games also. Just not a fan of this pick.  Had only one great season.

#15 (2pts) - Viacheslav Fetisov. 25.5 pts.   I wanted this guy to be so much higher, but it just wasn't there.  No great seasons.  Had a top score impact on NHL games for all his time and effort to get in the NHL after 12 years in Russia.  No AS games or elite seasons. 2 cups and higher Off Share than Langway helped in not finish last.


#14 (3pts) - Pierre Pilot. 26.7 pts.     Another player I don't think should have made the list.   He has 8AS games and 3 Norris, but really didn't play against any other name Def players except for Doug Harvey, who had 7 Norris. Great Season Cat was earned a lot for making AS team and those Norris wins. That's how he beat Fetisov.

#13 (4pts) - Eddie Shore.    33.0 pts.   He played in seasons that were only 44 games, so I adjusted his totals for that.  Similar to Leetch on HocRef. Won four Hart Trophies as MVP, but barely won the voting each time, so not really too dominant.  
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Tier THREE

#12 (5pts) - Doug Harvey    42.5 pts.     Won 7 Norris and made 11 AS games.  Most of the Norris he won over players that aren't very notable at all, except Pilot. Just could not give him the proper weight for that when you see the Norris winners of the last 30 years ofter have to beat out 3-4 very good names.   6 Cups gave him 1/3 of his points, so nice credit for that.  Had the second lowest points per game and by far the lowest +/- at +46 for his career.  

#11 (6pts) - Chris Pronger.   45.6 pts.     Had the highest Def Point shares of the list. Surprised by that.  Only made 4 AS games and one Cup in 18 years.  That hurt him. Didn't have a lot of elite seasons. Was banged up a little bit more than most.

#10 (7pts) - Scott Stevens    45.9 pts.    Was a close 2nd in Def Point shares to two other players.  5 AS and 1 Conn Smythe gave him edge over Pronger along with his 3 cups.  

#9 (8 pts) - Chris Chelios.   49.0 pts.      7AS games and 3 Norris. Higher dominating scores than those below him (tied with Stevens). 3 cups also. Played 27 years and this cose him as he didnt of a high pct of elite seasons.  He played too long.

#8 (9 pts) - Scott Niedermayer.    54.9 pts.    Hoc Ref similarity had slightly better than Chelios and Stevens and my pts system proved exactly that.  Scotty had an amzing, and graceful way of dominating the outcome of a game by the way he played it that didn't always show up in a box score.  He had a ton of clutch goals in the playoffs during his career, so he had nice inpact scores.  He's also only one of two players to win championships at every level of competition.  4 AS, 1 Norris and 1 Conn Smythe.  Con Smythes bimped Overall rating scores for those that earned them. Scott had 4 cups and Stevens and Chelios has 3 each.

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Tier TWO

#7 (10 pts) - Denis Potvin.   60.1 pts.     Led in Off PTS share and 3rd in DEF PTS share compared to those ranked below him.  7AS games, 3 Norris, 1 Calder and 4 cups. Had 312 more points than Scotty above in less years. and a nice elite season score. Islanders had a lot of great players, so dominance scores not as high as some.


#6 (11 pts) - Al Mac Innis.   63.0 pts.    Had 200 more points than Potvin, so a longer career helped him here.  Along with better O/D pts shares.  His one cup kept him from the Top 5. 7AS, 1 Norris and one Conn Smythe.

#5 (12 pts) - Paul Coffey.   66.7 pts.    Again the pts system worked well as Hoc ref had similar players scores just above MacInnis and Potvin.  Missed by 0.4 of having the highest OFF PTS share.  8 AS games and 3 Norris. 4 Cups won.  had 56 more goals and and 257 more assists in in seven less games than Mac Innis.

#4 (13 pts). - Larry Robinson.   70.1 pts.   Near the top in Def pts shares.  Two Norris, one Conn Smyhte and 6 AS games. SIX Cups tied him for the top of this group with Harvey. Was about 20% higher than anyone other in the group with a +722 for his career.

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Tier ONE -  The Top 3.

This didn't come out as I expected.  I thought my pick was going to be the #1 guy.  Many Internet rankings have him as #1.  But his career length, eventhough I didn't want that to be too big of a factor, just in the end, was.  And there is no way is hell GB Timmy can move him lower than this. LOL.

#3 (14 pts)   -   Bobby Orr.      78.5 pts.   The top 3 were pretty darn close to each other in points..  Even with a shorter career, Orr was 4th in OFF pt shares. His Def PT shares were 3.2 pts less than #1 and #2 to come for that category.  Impact on the game received the highest rating. He revolutionized and changed the Defense position forever.   9 AS games (he made it all full seasons). Three Hart, 1 Calder. 8 Norris is 9 full seasons is ridiculous.  Only two cups cost him from almost winning this. Was the only one in the group to average more than a point per game and he killed that.  915 pts in 657 games.  Over 900 games less than the guys that finished 1/2,  700-1100 games less than the seven guys below him.

#2 (15 pts) - Ray Bourque   82.0 pts.    The guy that I thought before this that would never rank this high.  He had 85.7% dominant seasons.  Only two others had over 70. Two thers in the low 50's.  That's insane.   He made 19 AS games.  SEVEN  more than anyone on the list.   He led the list in goals, assists and points, and was third in +/-      Was #1 in OFF pt shares and #4 in DEF pts shares.  What cost him the #1 spot was winning only one cup.

#1 (16 pts) - Nick Lidstrom.   85.0 pts.   Just super solid in every category.  Had 70% elite seasons.  Third in off and def pts shares by only slim margins. 7 Norris, 1 ConnSmythe, 12 AS games .  4th on ths list in points scored.  His 4 Cups (3 more than Bourque) made the difference to earn the #1 spot.

 

[Zegras11]

Standings after Zow ranked NFL QB's

 

1 --jwb--44

2 --otb_lifer--36

3 --Long Ball Larry--35

4 --wikkidpissah--31

5 --Jagov--30

6 --Gally--28

7 --AAABatteries--25

8 --DougB--22

9 --Kal El--22

10 -joffer--22

11 -higgins--21

12 -Zow--21

13 -Ilov80s--21

14 -timschochet--18

15 -Getzlaf15--17

16 -tuffnutt--15

 

[Zegras11]

Standings after Getzlaf15 ranks NHL Defensemen

 

1 --jwb--59 out of 64 possible.  

2 --otb_lifer--40

3 --Long Ball Larry--40

4 --Kal El--38

5 --Gally--37

6 --AAABatteries--36

7 --wikkidpissah--34

8 --higgins--33

9 --Jagov--32

10 -joffer--32

11 -Getzlaf15--31

12 -Ilov80s--29

13 -tuffnutt--28

14 -Zow--27

15 -timschochet--25

16 -DougB--23

 

[timschochet]

Standings after Getzlaf15 ranks NHL Defensemen

15 -timschochet--25

FAKE NEWS! These judges are clearly biased against me. 
 

 

[jwb]

Standings after Getzlaf15 ranks NHL Defensemen

 

1 --jwb--59 out of 64 possible.  

Illusion.   These first few judged were all categories I figured my pick would do well in. Montana NFL QB, 98 Yankees all time team, Bourque , etc. Wait until we get to women's swimming and NCAA coaches/etc. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Not sure if it’s fair to ding Chelios for playing too long. He was good most of those seasons, just not Norris level great. However, I can’t argue with his final spot. Also I agree Lidstrom is the best ever.

 

[Zow]

FAKE NEWS! These judges are clearly biased against me. 
 

I’m sure Trump loves Bradshaw, too. 

 

[BobbyLayne]

Ok, here the rankings for NHL Defensive Players.

Nice work here @Getzlaf15

Judges are not supposed to rank their picks; that’s the rule. Apologies if you had that worked out ahead of time with Timmay. That said, seems like the top 3 are spot on IMO.

 

[BobbyLayne]

@Zow your QB rankings did not suck

 

[Zegras11]

Nice work here @Getzlaf15

Judges are not supposed to rank their picks; that’s the rule. Apologies if you had that worked out ahead of time with Timmay. That said, seems like the top 3 are spot on IMO.

Two or three pages back this was all worked out, thanks to the famous quitter for that

 

[Zegras11]

Not sure if it’s fair to ding Chelios for playing too long. He was good most of those seasons, just not Norris level great. However, I can’t argue with his final spot. Also I agree Lidstrom is the best ever.

I don't think it cost him a spot.    I think Scotty should be just ahead of him.

 

[Zow]

@Zow your QB rankings did not suck

Ha thanks. Struggled a bit with that large second tier, and I really wanted to put manning at 2, but I went back afterwards to look at where guys were actually drafted and the rankings were pretty similar to draft spots. QB is probably one of the easier categories to rank bc it’s been heavily discussed and there’s an acceptable consensus. In looking back at the draft again I don’t think there was more than a three spot disparity in draft position to where I ranked. if I had to nitpick, I thought Brees went a touch too early and Graham was the best value pick. 
 

 

[Zow]

I don't think it cost him a spot.    I think Scotty should be just ahead of him.

I had chelios, niedemayer, Stevens, and Pronger all ranked the same. Online rankings I looked at when drafting did too IIRC. Can’t really argue with the way you shook them out. My strategy was to just ensure I grabbed one of them when chelios went off the board. My gut said Stevens but online tended to have Pronger a notch higher. Should have went with the gut. 

 

[Zow]

Nice work here @Getzlaf15

Judges are not supposed to rank their picks; that’s the rule. Apologies if you had that worked out ahead of time with Timmay. That said, seems like the top 3 are spot on IMO.

Yeah the general understanding seems to be that the ranker will rank his own selection but that it’s subject to edit by Tim if it seems to be curiously over ranked. I think this makes the most sense and, so far, rankers haven’t put their own selections drastically ahead of where they drafted the selection. 

 

[Zow]

It’s just kind of weird to rank all 16 and not include your selection. 
 

For greatest all around I am considering making a poll for the top spot so I don’t have to rank Thorpe v Bo.  

 

[BobbyLayne]

Ha thanks. Struggled a bit with that large second tier, and I really wanted to put manning at 2, but I went back afterwards to look at where guys were actually drafted and the rankings were pretty similar to draft spots. QB is probably one of the easier categories to rank bc it’s been heavily discussed and there’s an acceptable consensus. In looking back at the draft again I don’t think there was more than a three spot disparity in draft position to where I ranked. if I had to nitpick, I thought Brees went a touch too early and Graham was the best value pick. 

I’m less enamored with Otto because he’s the only guy in the pre-merger era who never called his own plays. But statistically he’s phenomenally efficient. Browns were so good in the AAFC they basically had to let the chickens into the coop. Browns, 49ers, and original Baltimore Colts all had wealthy owners (true for most of their league, while the NFL was largely families whose biggest asset was the franchise.) The AAFC was signing 2/3rds of the college All Star game participants and could not be ignored.

Anyway, four dollars a pound.

 

[Ilov80s]

Non HW Boxing Results Pt 2 (ties were broken by BoxerRec rating) 

10. (7 pt)  Carlos Monzon:  easily one of the best middle weights in history, he suffered 3 losses very early in his career (avenged them all) and then never lost again. He held the title for 7 years and 14 defenses before retiring. Being the only fighter to stop Emile Griffith is a signature note for him but his two wins over Griffith are slightly dinged because they came in the later third of Emile's career when he was fighting above his preferred weight and honestly was beginning to lose a lot of fights. He does get full credit for beating an all time top 10 Middleweight in Nico Benvenuti twice.  That said, I don't think this was the strongest era for middleweights. That, his refusal to move up in weight and his relatively short career (he retired 7 years after becoming middleweight champ) are slight dings when we are judging among the best ever. Monzon deserves a top ten spot  because he was the UNDISPUTED middle weight champion for 7 years and was very scary doing it. He had the WBA, WBC, Ring and Lineal title. 

9. (8 pt)  Roy Jones Jr.: He scored out for me better than I had expected. He fought everyone: Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Vinny Paz, Antonio Tarver, Joe Calzaghe, Tito Trinidad. He was always game for anyone at any weight. He started his career as a junior middleweight and ended up winning the freaking heavyweight title. Now, the champ he took it from was John Ruiz who's path to the title was a giant clusterf- and nobody in boxing actually considered Ruiz or Roy to be better than Lennox Lewis or Vitali Klitschko. He unified the light heavyweight title. His run of just destroying fighters from 93-03 is pretty special even if there were a lot of junk fighters in there. 

8. (9 pt) Willie Pep: I don't think there is any question that Pep is the best featherweight ever. Holding that spot in a glamour division is very significant. The guy won 229 fights and fought almost 2,000 rounds. Pep won the lineal featherweight title in 1942 and then went 80-1-1 over the next 6 years (despite being in a serious plane crash in the middle). He never moved out of featherweight, but that is less of a knock for the old school fighters because there were less division than. If Pep was around in a more modern era, he could have pursued superbantam, superfeather or junior welterweight titles not to mention there are multiple world titles for each of those divisions these days. So why isn't Pep higher? Sandy Sadler. They were the 2 best feathers of their day and they fought 4 times. Sadler wins by KO, Pep wins the rematch on points. Fight 3, Pep quits due to an injured shoulder. Fight 4, Pep quits due to a painful cut near his eye. By all accounts, their final fight was a complete mess with Pep running, refusing to fight while Sadler would tackle him to the ground, gouge him and butt him. 

7. (10 pt) Marvin Hagler: He quickly stepped up to fill the hole Monzon's retirement left in the middleweight division and like Monzon he shredded a somewhat suspect division. Hagler was either the MW champ or the guy the MW champ was avoiding starting in about '77 and wouldn't lose until a split decision in his final fight with Sugar Ray. It was a genius fight plan by Leonard and one we would later see Mayweather make a hall of fame career out of. Leonard was able to make the fight slow and uneventful so that he could steal rounds with a couple bits of flash. It's tough to hold this loss against Hagler but if you go through all these fighters histories, everyone has at least one questionable fight. In the end, the official results are what matter most. Above, I noted the somewhat suspect division. It was suspect until around '83 when it became flooded with a new crop of fighters. Duran came up from lightweight, Hearns and Leonard from welterweight. Hagler fared well against the smaller fighters that came up to challenge him, but Hagler also never attempted to test himself against bigger men and he retired while at the top of his game. 

6. (11 pt) Julio Caesar Chavez: 2x lineal welterweight champ, 1x lineal lightweight champ, holds the record for most successful world title defenses, most title victories, most titles fights ever, 2nd most title defenses by KO, had an 87 fight win streak which is unheard for a modern fighter. Now he did do this in a time when there were lot of belts and divisions. Many of his 87 wins came against guys who worked day jobs driving cabs. They weren't all bums though. He stopped Roger Mayweather, Jose Luis Ramirez, Greg Haugen and Edwin Rosario. His stardom can't be denied. He is one of the most revered athletes in the Mexico- he drew 138,000 for his fight with Haugen. Still to this day, most Mexican fighters emulate themselves after JCC with the left hook to the body being the foundation. And I don't want to hear from anyone about how he should have lost to Meldrick Taylor. It's not the refs job to strategize for a fighter. If a fighter is knocked down and can't properly respond to the ref's commands, the fight is over. Instead of being a controversy, this should be revered as the amazing game winning buzzer beater it was. 

 

[Gally]

Ha thanks. Struggled a bit with that large second tier, and I really wanted to put manning at 2, but I went back afterwards to look at where guys were actually drafted and the rankings were pretty similar to draft spots. QB is probably one of the easier categories to rank bc it’s been heavily discussed and there’s an acceptable consensus. In looking back at the draft again I don’t think there was more than a three spot disparity in draft position to where I ranked. if I had to nitpick, I thought Brees went a touch too early and Graham was the best value pick. 
 

I knew Baugh would be tough to rank but figured he would be a bit higher.  I probably would have had him above Favre and Rodgers because he was a huge pioneer in actually passing the football.  His comparative stats to the rest of the league were so much better (he actually had games that would fit in todays game based on yardage, completions, etc) when nobody else in his era was doing that.  Not a big deal and I applaud you for putting in the effort.  As a Vikings fan I thought about going with Fran but sometimes I think my purple glasses might skew my view so I decided to take a chance on the Slinging Sammy Baugh.

 

[wikkidpissah]

habsalootly reedikilus

 

[Zow]

I knew Baugh would be tough to rank but figured he would be a bit higher.  I probably would have had him above Favre and Rodgers because he was a huge pioneer in actually passing the football.  His comparative stats to the rest of the league were so much better (he actually had games that would fit in todays game based on yardage, completions, etc) when nobody else in his era was doing that.  Not a big deal and I applaud you for putting in the effort.  As a Vikings fan I thought about going with Fran but sometimes I think my purple glasses might skew my view so I decided to take a chance on the Slinging Sammy Baugh.

Totally understand. I'd note that the NFL included him when they released their top ten (Brees and Rodgers were notable omissions). However, I think both Favre and Rodgers belong in the same breath as Marino, Elway, and Brees so I just couldn't separate them. 

I did just go back and look at where you drafted Sammy - 13th overall in the 40 something round - so I'm not going to feel too badly now ranking him 11th as you got at least value there.  

As a Vikings fan as well I was really disappointed nobody took Fran. I had him 14th (ahead of the bottom three guys on my list). 

 

[Zow]

habsalootly reedikilus

Hey, I listed your guy first overall this time!

 

[Ilov80s]

Harry Greb and Archie Moore seem to be the 2 biggest misses for the non-HW Boxing rankings. I had to triple check to make sure I hadn't missed them when copying from the spreadsheet. 

 

[Zegras11]

Harry Greb and Archie Moore seem to be the 2 biggest misses for the non-HW Boxing rankings. I had to triple check to make sure I hadn't missed them when copying from the spreadsheet. 

Was wondering what you thought of Tony Zale.   Just curious as I am related to him.

 

[tuffnutt]

Totally understand. I'd note that the NFL included him when they released their top ten (Brees and Rodgers were notable omissions). However, I think both Favre and Rodgers belong in the same breath as Marino, Elway, and Brees so I just couldn't separate them. 

I did just go back and look at where you drafted Sammy - 13th overall in the 40 something round - so I'm not going to feel too badly now ranking him 11th as you got at least value there.  

As a Vikings fan as well I was really disappointed nobody took Fran. I had him 14th (ahead of the bottom three guys on my list). 

with the 15th pick I had Moon and Tark as last 2 guys. I felt Moon had the better career despite lack of playoff success. Moon was a stud. He ended up ranked where I thought he would, but I hoped he may beat out a couple of the old timers

 

[Ilov80s]

Was wondering what you thought of Tony Zale.   Just curious as I am related to him.

I can't say I have seen the Zale fights with Graziano or the French dude he fought after all the Graziano fights but by all accounts they were classics. He sounds like an Arturo Gatti. He loved to fight, would grind guys down and could absorb a ridiculous amount of punishment. I don't think he rates to the level of guys we have here (except for De Leon who really doesn't belong IMO).

 

[Gally]

Standings after Getzlaf15 ranks NHL Defensemen

5 --Gally--37

Feeling pretty good so far.  My highest (or lowest not sure the best descriptor) draft round graded so far is my 38th pick (Citation) and each pick has gained value.  All this means is my early picks will probably get screwed and be dropped in the standings.

 

[Zow]

with the 15th pick I had Moon and Tark as last 2 guys. I felt Moon had the better career despite lack of playoff success. Moon was a stud. He ended up ranked where I thought he would, but I hoped he may beat out a couple of the old timers

I strongly considered ranking him over Starr, but hard to argue with Starr's results. I feel for Warren though for the reasons stated in my commentary and acknowledge I may just being continuing the trend of underappreciating him. 

 

[BobbyLayne]

Tarkenton had a great career, held every major QB stat record when he retired. But only 1 All Pro, 1 MVP season, and never won a ring. It wasn’t just that he lost SBs - they were never competitive.

But he was a revelation. Playing on terrible teams - 10 Ws his first 3 season - he was great at buying time or scrambling. First appearance, 250 yards off the bench, 4 TDs passing & ran for another. Matured a lot in New York and was much more efficient his second go around in Minneapolis.

Annoying in interviews or announcing, but respected his game a lot.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Just noticed John Calipari is on the sheet twice under Men's CBB Coaches

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Just noticed John Calipari is on the sheet twice under Men's CBB Coaches

Looks like he's listed for both @Kal El & @Ilov80s. I didn't go back pick by pick to see if he actually did get taken twice (or who took him first), or if it's a keypunch error.

 

[Doug B]

Rd 60 College BBall Coach: John Calipari 

3x NCAA Coach of the Year

1x NCAA Champion

6x Final Four Appearances

6x SEC Reg Season Champs

6x SEC Tourney Wins 

A few posts after this, Long Ball Larry pointed out that Calipari was off the board (Kal El picked Calipari on 4/11). But I don't think @Ilov80s repicked.

 

[Ilov80s]

Non HW Boxing Results Pt 2 (ties were broken by BoxerRec rating) 

5. (12 pt) Sugar Ray Leonard: The biggest star of boxing during one of the greatest eras of boxing, undisputed champ at welterweight and lineal title at middle weight.  3x fighter of the year, Ring Magazine's fighter of the 80s, an Olympic gold. He has so many awards and honors. Anyone who lived through the 80s and early 90s knew what kind megastar Sugar Ray was. There was also this odd thing where in his biggest fights, he was often the underdog. At least among the older boxing heads I have spoken to in the Detroit area, they didn't think he could ever beat Duran, Hearns or Hagler. They still don't think he beat Hagler. It was a very close fight and that happens in every sport- sometimes the breaks go your way in a close match-up and sometimes they don't. Now Sugar Ray gets a slight knock for his period of inactivity (between the Hearns fight in '81 and the Hagler fight in '86 he participated in only 2 fights, both against vastly inferior opponents.) But the real reason Ray is here so high is his record against the fab four: 2-1 vs Duran, 1-0 vs Hagler, 1-0-1 vs Hearns. He stopped 2 of them while losing on a close decision in his only loss against his incredible peers. 

4. (13 pt) Henry Armstrong: Hammerin' Hank, Homicide Hank, Hurricane Hank. He was so good, he got all the H nicknames. 151 wins with 101 by KO.  He was a bit short with short arms but he used that to his advantage by constantly bobbing and weaving, look to get under punches, work inside and assault the body. He is boxing's best example of a pressure fighter. He is also the best example of a multiweight champion. Remember, he is fighting in the 30s and 40s , his title fights were for lineal titles in the glamour divisions. He wasn't winning fringe titles at catchweights. He is the only boxer in history to be the undisputed champion of 3 divisions at the same time: welterweight, lightweight and featherweight. He is also the rare guy who went backwards. He first became the welterweight champ, then shed some weight to win the lightweight title and then again to win the featherweight title. He then decided to add it all back on and then some to pursue the middleweight title. He was a highly questionable draw away from pulling it off. Armstrong was a world class fighter bouncing around between 122 pounds and 160 pounds at the same time, taking on the champions at all of those weights. He had an incredible 19 welterweight title defenses. The 2 slight knocks on his resume are the 21 losses and 9 draws. Since he was so active, he also took some losses. He also was past his true prime by age 30 when Sugar Ray Robinson basically shut him out in a UD at MSG. Hank's 20s were as dominant as any boxer has ever been but his 30s were totally unremarkable. *Note that Armstrong was my choice and if someone wants to look up other rankings and dispute this, let me know.*

3. (14 pt) Manny Pacquiao: His cultural and boxing impact is off the charts. The idea that a Filipino Flyweight coming in at 108 pounds would go on to become one of biggest sports stars in the world is so crazy that it could only happen in real life. Then to see him do it knocking out welterweights, it's just incredible. He held lineal titles at 5 different weight classes. He held titles in 8 weight classes, including flyweight, featherweight, lightweight and welterweight. His run from his KO of Erik Morales in 2006 through to his TKO of Miguel Cotto was almost Tyson like in it's excitement, shock and awe. Each step up seemed impossible. He was too small to beat Oscar De La Hoya, he was coming up 2 weight divisions and Oscar was coming down 1. Manny put Oscar into retirement. Ended Ricky Hatton and then immediately jumped up to welterweight to disassemble Miguel Cotto. There are 3 things preventing Manny from being in the top spot. His arch-rival Juan Manuel Marquez fought Manny to a draw and landed one of the scariest and most shocking punches ever. Manny took some other losses in his career- Timothy Bradley, Erik Morales, Jeff Horn and of course Floyd. As much as that fight sucked and it happened too late, we can't erase the fact that the great offensive fighter Pac-man couldn't touch Money Mayweather. 

2. (15 pt) Floyd Mayweather Jr:  19 years, 50 wins and 0 losses. Really only 1 or 2  close calls. He didn't just win every fight, he cruised to victory in every fight. Many will say he ruined boxing and he was boring to watch. That may be true, but it led him to become the highest paid athlete in the world. He knew if you loved him, you would buy his PPV to cheer him on and if you hated him, you would convince yourself that this new opponent was different and that this was finally the time Floyd was going to get what he had coming to him. The haters are still waiting. Did he wait out some fighters until they were a bit past their prime? Sure, he had the leverage to pull it off. Did he force some guys to fight an uncomfortable catchweights or with gloves they didn't prefer? Sure. But in the end, he fought Manny, Shane Mosley, Oscar, Canelo, Cotto, Marquez, Hatton, Corrales, Gatti, Zab Judah. The resume is littered with hall of famers. He held a slew of titles, but with Floyd it wasn't about being a champion. He was the P4P best in the world, the best defensive fighter and the best showman. He was bigger than belts. The most impressive thing of all maybe he did this while being hamstrung with bad hands. His early days he was a much more offensive fighter but after a series of hand injuries, he had to reinvent himself. Some plan B, huh?

1. (16 pt) Sugar Ray Robinson: An obvious choice. Has there ever been a P4P list that didn't have Ray at #1? He had a 25 year career ranging from welterweight to middleweight. Combining his amateur and pro career, he started 213-1-2 with 153 KOs. He came back out of retirement to become the first fighter to ever win a division title 5 times. He probably hung on too long after that as the 60s weren't too kind to him with 13 of his 19 losses happening in that decade. But that's not even close enough of a knock to take away from his incredible Middleweight run during what was one of better periods for any boxing division. He had to go threw guys like Lamotta, Basilio, Bobo Olsen, Kid Gavilan, Joey Maxim, Villemain, etc. He was also able to create the model for a new type of black boxing star. Instead of trying to sell himself to white America as some kind of saint, he became a flashy member of NY night life opening a nightclub, partying with Sinatra and Nat King Cole. The idea of a celebrity having an entourage comes from the Sugar Ray. When I was looking at my categories, there wasn't a single one that score poorly in. He's the all around perfect boxer and clear #1.  

 

[Ilov80s]

A few posts after this, Long Ball Larry pointed out that Calipari was off the board (Kal El picked Calipari on 4/11). But I don't think @Ilov80s repicked.

Ok, let me repick. 

Rd 60 NCAA BBall Coach: Rick Pitino

2x NCAA Champ, 7 Final Fours, 5 SEC Tourney wins, 3 Big East Tourney wins, 1x NCAA Coach of the Year 

Only coach to take 3 teams to the Final Four 

 

[Zegras11]

Standings after ILov80's posted Non Heavy Weight Boxers

 

1 --jwb--65. (only a 6 this rd)

2 --otb_lifer--52

3 --Gally--51

4 --Long Ball Larry--47

5 --wikkidpissah--44

6 --Ilov80s--42

7 --higgins--41

8 --AAABatteries--40

9 --timschochet--40

10 -Kal El--39

11 -tuffnutt--39

12 -DougB--39

13 -joffer--37

14 -Zow--36

15 -Jagov--35

16 -Getzlaf15--33

 

[wikkidpissah]

just keep repeating "i've made 3/4 of a million dollars betting against these folk", wik - you'll make it thru

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Non HW Boxing Results Pt 2 (ties were broken by BoxerRec rating) 

5. (12 pt) Sugar Ray Leonard: The biggest star of boxing during one of the greatest eras of boxing, undisputed champ at welterweight and lineal title at middle weight.  3x fighter of the year, Ring Magazine's fighter of the 80s, an Olympic gold. He has so many awards and honors. Anyone who lived through the 80s and early 90s knew what kind megastar Sugar Ray was. There was also this odd thing where in his biggest fights, he was often the underdog. At least among the older boxing heads I have spoken to in this area, they didn't think he could ever beat Duran, Hearns or Hagler. They still don't think he beat Hagler. It was a very close fight and that happens in every sport- sometimes the breaks just don't go your way in a close match-up. Now Sugar Ray gets a slight knock for his period of inactivity (between the Hearns fight in '81 and the Hagler fight in '86 he participated in only 2 fights, both against vastly inferior opponents.) But the real reason Ray is here so high is his record against the fab four: 2-1 vs Duran, 1-0 vs Hagler, 1-0-1 vs Hearns. He stopped 2 of them while losing on a close decision in his only loss against his incredible peers. 

The genius thing about Leonard and his team was that he was the first fighter to meticulously plan out his career. Before (& mostly after) Ray, guys pretty much fought whoever was next in front of them. Leonard wouldn't fight anyone unless it made the most sense for HIM. He'd dictate ring size, glove size, tightness of the ropes, etc.... Because he was Sugar Ray and everyone else had to come to him for the money.

Those that didn't like him called him a sham, pumped up by Cosell. They said his fights were fixed.

What Ray did to Hagler at that ringside conference was cheap & petty.

That said, he was a tough ******* who had a better chin and harder punch than he's given credit for. 

 

[timschochet]

What always surprised me about Floyd Mayweather was that casual fight fans had no respect for him whatsoever. I remember when he fought Colin McGregor I was in a room of about 20 guys, and every one of them thought McGregor would win. 

 

[Ilov80s]

The genius thing about Leonard and his team was that he was the first fighter to meticulously plan out his career. Before (& mostly after) Ray, guys pretty much fought whoever was next in front of them. Leonard wouldn't fight anyone unless it made the most sense for HIM. He'd dictate ring size, glove size, tightness of the ropes, etc.... Because he was Sugar Ray and everyone else had to come to him for the money.

Those that didn't like him called him a sham, pumped up by Cosell. They said his fights were fixed.

What Ray did to Hagler at that ringside conference was cheap & petty.

That said, he was a tough ******* who had a better chin and harder punch than he's given credit for. 

He was the good guy version of what Mayweather would later turn into the perfect heel. 

 

[Ilov80s]

What always surprised me about Floyd Mayweather was that casual fight fans had no respect for him whatsoever. I remember when he fought Colin McGregor I was in a room of about 20 guys, and every one of them thought McGregor would win. 

I know so many people who talked themselves into 15 or so guys as being the person who finally going to beat Floyd. I wanted to see it (except for when I was betting on him before the odds got ridiculous) but its ignorant of the reality of how skilled Floyd was and perfectly he was able to execute a gameplan.

 

[Gally]

What always surprised me about Floyd Mayweather was that casual fight fans had no respect for him whatsoever. I remember when he fought Colin McGregor I was in a room of about 20 guys, and every one of them thought McGregor would win. 

There was no way McGregor was going to win that fight.  It was too difficult to stop his ingrained moves (like wanting to follow a punch with an elbow that he had to keep stopping himself from doing).  He did do a lot better than I ever expected him to do though.  It was an entertaining fight.

 

[Zow]

What always surprised me about Floyd Mayweather was that casual fight fans had no respect for him whatsoever. I remember when he fought Colin McGregor I was in a room of about 20 guys, and every one of them thought McGregor would win. 

Ha, this is true. I was in a similar situation and took money off as many of them as I could. I do credit McGregor though as he did better than I thought he would. I'm not some boxing or MMA wizard, but this seemed like Antonio Gates challenging Lebron to a game of one on one and thinking that he had a shot. 

 

[Zow]

There was no way McGregor was going to win that fight.  It was too difficult to stop his ingrained moves (like wanting to follow a punch with an elbow that he had to keep stopping himself from doing).  He did do a lot better than I ever expected him to do though.  It was an entertaining fight.

Yep. Pleasantly surprising. If Floyd held back he hid it well (but I don't think he did). 

 

[Doug B]

[Leonard] was the good guy version of what Mayweather would later turn into the perfect heel. 

Funny thinking back on the early 80s ... how Sugar Ray Leonard was such a real-life babyface compared to guys like Hearns, Duran, and Hagler. Leonard was 'non-threatening' and 'fun' enough for ad agencies to tab him for national spots like this iconic 7-Up ad.

EDIT: Wow! Forgot about this one with both Leonard and Duran together with their sons. Interesting YouTube comment, though:

There was a lot of tension actually, going in to this commercial. Months before, Duran had been really disrespectful toward the Leonards, and Ray let it be known if he said anything to or about his son the commercial would be done immediately. Thankfully for us, Duran showed some class, and allowed the world to get one of the greatest boxing commercials EVER.

 

[Gally]

Ha, this is true. I was in a similar situation and took money off as many of them as I could. I do credit McGregor though as he did better than I thought he would. I'm not some boxing or MMA wizard, but this seemed like Antonio Gates challenging Lebron to a game of one on one and thinking that he had a shot. 

And I think the reverse is true.  If they did this bout with MMA rules Floyd would have been crushed.  It's just extremely hard to completely change your ingrained muscle memory for something like this.  McGregor did great although you can see that his combos had to always stop and it cost him a rhythm.  That was his biggest obstacle.....then he had to still take on an elite boxer.

 

[Ilov80s]

Yep. Pleasantly surprising. If Floyd held back he hid it well (but I don't think he did). 

I don't think he held back but Floyd isn't the fighter who is going come out and try to blow someone away. He always works slowly, studies the opponent, gets a feel for their plan and rhythm. That was probably even more important for McGregor since he had never boxed before. Sometimes the most dangerous person can be the guy who is really unorthodox and catches a more skilled boxer off guard. Floyd doesn't allow that to happen because he offers so little chances for opponents. Also, I think Floyd knew that all he had to was wait, let McGregor tire himself out and then it would very safe to step in and be aggressive. 

 

[Zegras11]

working on NFL Offensive Linemen now...  Anyone have anything they think I should use as criteria besides, games, ALL Pro, Pro Bowls?  Would hate to do this and find out I missed something that could have helped. 

 

[Ilov80s]

Ha, this is true. I was in a similar situation and took money off as many of them as I could. I do credit McGregor though as he did better than I thought he would. I'm not some boxing or MMA wizard, but this seemed like Antonio Gates challenging Lebron to a game of one on one and thinking that he had a shot. 

Only difference is Gates can't win the one on one game with one miracle half court shot. A fight can be won that way. 

 

[Ilov80s]

working on NFL Offensive Linemen now...  Anyone have anything they think I should use as criteria besides, games, ALL Pro, Pro Bowls?  Would hate to do this and find out I missed something that could have helped. 

All decade teams and such. Since the position doesn't really have stats, it's hard to do much more than that. 

 

[Doug B]

working on NFL Offensive Linemen now...  Anyone have anything they think I should use as criteria besides, games, ALL Pro, Pro Bowls?  Would hate to do this and find out I missed something that could have helped. 

All-Decade Teams
50th / 75th / 100th NFL Anniversary Teams

 

[Zow]

Only difference is Gates can't win the one on one game with one miracle half court shot. A fight can be won that way. 

Fair point.  

Still stands to reason though that it's incredibly difficult for a guy to cross sports - even to a sport where that guy has significant experience - and beat one of the best. 

Which is why the all-around category will be fun to judge...