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2020 Greatest of All Time Sports Draft-Zow wins, Judges still suck (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
LeBron was the best college player i ever saw. No one should hold against him that he didn't go
AAABatteries
Footballguy
The most you could move Carmelo up that list is a spot or two and honestly I agree with the ranking.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
It's Ladies Night!
Time to get started on the highlight of our competion, Ladies Figure Skating. Two contestants that should have been chosen were Irina Slutskaya and Sarah Hughes.
Another gentleman who should have gone is Artur Dmitriev. He also won two Olympic golds with different partners - Natalia Mishkutionok (aka Pretzel Girl) and Oksana Kazakova.
But before we start, a moment of reflection, please, for those lost on Sabena Flight 548.
Time to get started on the highlight of our competion, Ladies Figure Skating. Two contestants that should have been chosen were Irina Slutskaya and Sarah Hughes.
Another gentleman who should have gone is Artur Dmitriev. He also won two Olympic golds with different partners - Natalia Mishkutionok (aka Pretzel Girl) and Oksana Kazakova.
But before we start, a moment of reflection, please, for those lost on Sabena Flight 548.
Zegras11
Footballguy
MLB Greatest Manager Rankings...
Randomly selected the names.
Came up with my usual ranking system of relatively rankings several criteria with different weights
Total Wins
Winning Percentage
Pennants (PEN)
World Series Wins (WS)
% of years winning Pennants. (P%)
% of years winning World Series. (WS%)
one internet ranking list
Manager of the Year award was not given out for many of these guys and was not used.
Notable Missing - Miller Huggins. Had 6 PEN and 3 WS WINS. Which would have tied him for 6th in each CAT.
1 PT - Billy Martin. 19.64 pts. 2 PEN, 1 WS Win. Had the lowest WINS and PEN on the list.
2 PTS - Leo Durocher. 21.44 pts. 3 PEN, 1 WS WIN. 2008 wins ranked 9th. Just not much else compared to the others over 24 years. I messed this pick up.
3 PTS - Ned Hanlon. 21.98 pts. 5 PEN, 0 WS WIN. His 5 PEN in 19 years put him 5th in PEN % and edged him ahead of the Lip.
4 PTS - Earl Weaver. 26.36 pts. 4 PEN,, 1WS WIN, in 17 years. 3rd lowest WINS and 2nd lowest YRS on list. Loved the long ball.
5 PTS - **** Williams. 26.77 pts. 4 PEN, 2 WS Win, in 21 years. One more WS WIN than Weaver was just enough to offest some Weaver gains over him.
6 PTS - Terry Francona. 27.05 pts. 3 PEN, 2 WS Win, in 19 years. Didn't think it would make a difference as I gave it so few points, but the Internet ranking list had him in Top15, and didn't rank Williams. Also had 96 more wins in two less years.
7 PTS - Bobby Cox. 27.64 pts. 5 PEN, 1 WS Win, in 29 years. 837 more wins, higher WIn%, and two more PEN than Francona was just enough to beat him.
8 PTS - Tommy Lasorda. 27.68 pts. 4 PEN and 2 WS Win, in 21 years. This group of the last five here is so, so close. Either tied with **** Williams or slightly better than him in every CAT, and was on the Internet list.
9 PTS - Sparky Anderson 35.51 pts. 5 PEN and 3 WS Wins, in 26 years. Solid jump up to the next tier here. Only one of six on the list with a WS WIN% > 10%.
10 PTS - Tony LaRussa. 36.20 pts. 6 PEN and 3 WS Wins, in 33 years. 534 more wins and one more PEN are basically the only difference between he and Sparky.
11 PTS - Joe Torre. 39.29 pts. 6 PEN and 4 WS Wins, in 29 years. 4th highest WS Win% on list. That and one more WS WIN gave him the nod over LaRussa.
12 PTS - Connie Mack. 43.35 pts. 9 PEN and 5 WS Wins, in 53 years. While the totals of these were good, he was only 13th is Pen% (16.98%) and 7th in WS Win %(9.43%). Had the most wins by almost a 1000 on the list, but also the only winning pct under .500.
13 PTS - Walter Alston. 44.63 pts. 7 PEN and 4 WS wins, in 23 years. Was 4th in Win % at .558. 3rd on Pen% and WS Win%. Alos 3rd on Net list.
14 PTS - John McGraw. 45.09 pts. 10 PEN and 3 WS Wins, in 33 years. Was 2nd in Win % at .586. PEN% was 30.3%, fraction behind Alston's 30.43%. The 3 WS wins really hurts him when compared to the Top 2 that had seven each.
15 PTS - Casey Stengel. 57.46 pts. 10 PEN and 7 WS Wins, in 25 years. Had 12 great seasons with the Yankees (.623) and 13 crappy seasons with others that had him wind up at only .508 for career. 40% PEN was highest on list. Win pct and Net ranking cost him here, which is right.
16 PTS - Joe McCarthy. 59.91 pts. 9 PEN and 7 WS Wins, in 24 years. .615 Win pct was easily highest on the list. As was WS Win %. Top possible score here was 64.00 pts.
Randomly selected the names.
Came up with my usual ranking system of relatively rankings several criteria with different weights
Total Wins
Winning Percentage
Pennants (PEN)
World Series Wins (WS)
% of years winning Pennants. (P%)
% of years winning World Series. (WS%)
one internet ranking list
Manager of the Year award was not given out for many of these guys and was not used.
Notable Missing - Miller Huggins. Had 6 PEN and 3 WS WINS. Which would have tied him for 6th in each CAT.
1 PT - Billy Martin. 19.64 pts. 2 PEN, 1 WS Win. Had the lowest WINS and PEN on the list.
2 PTS - Leo Durocher. 21.44 pts. 3 PEN, 1 WS WIN. 2008 wins ranked 9th. Just not much else compared to the others over 24 years. I messed this pick up.
3 PTS - Ned Hanlon. 21.98 pts. 5 PEN, 0 WS WIN. His 5 PEN in 19 years put him 5th in PEN % and edged him ahead of the Lip.
4 PTS - Earl Weaver. 26.36 pts. 4 PEN,, 1WS WIN, in 17 years. 3rd lowest WINS and 2nd lowest YRS on list. Loved the long ball.
5 PTS - **** Williams. 26.77 pts. 4 PEN, 2 WS Win, in 21 years. One more WS WIN than Weaver was just enough to offest some Weaver gains over him.
6 PTS - Terry Francona. 27.05 pts. 3 PEN, 2 WS Win, in 19 years. Didn't think it would make a difference as I gave it so few points, but the Internet ranking list had him in Top15, and didn't rank Williams. Also had 96 more wins in two less years.
7 PTS - Bobby Cox. 27.64 pts. 5 PEN, 1 WS Win, in 29 years. 837 more wins, higher WIn%, and two more PEN than Francona was just enough to beat him.
8 PTS - Tommy Lasorda. 27.68 pts. 4 PEN and 2 WS Win, in 21 years. This group of the last five here is so, so close. Either tied with **** Williams or slightly better than him in every CAT, and was on the Internet list.
9 PTS - Sparky Anderson 35.51 pts. 5 PEN and 3 WS Wins, in 26 years. Solid jump up to the next tier here. Only one of six on the list with a WS WIN% > 10%.
10 PTS - Tony LaRussa. 36.20 pts. 6 PEN and 3 WS Wins, in 33 years. 534 more wins and one more PEN are basically the only difference between he and Sparky.
11 PTS - Joe Torre. 39.29 pts. 6 PEN and 4 WS Wins, in 29 years. 4th highest WS Win% on list. That and one more WS WIN gave him the nod over LaRussa.
12 PTS - Connie Mack. 43.35 pts. 9 PEN and 5 WS Wins, in 53 years. While the totals of these were good, he was only 13th is Pen% (16.98%) and 7th in WS Win %(9.43%). Had the most wins by almost a 1000 on the list, but also the only winning pct under .500.
13 PTS - Walter Alston. 44.63 pts. 7 PEN and 4 WS wins, in 23 years. Was 4th in Win % at .558. 3rd on Pen% and WS Win%. Alos 3rd on Net list.
14 PTS - John McGraw. 45.09 pts. 10 PEN and 3 WS Wins, in 33 years. Was 2nd in Win % at .586. PEN% was 30.3%, fraction behind Alston's 30.43%. The 3 WS wins really hurts him when compared to the Top 2 that had seven each.
15 PTS - Casey Stengel. 57.46 pts. 10 PEN and 7 WS Wins, in 25 years. Had 12 great seasons with the Yankees (.623) and 13 crappy seasons with others that had him wind up at only .508 for career. 40% PEN was highest on list. Win pct and Net ranking cost him here, which is right.
16 PTS - Joe McCarthy. 59.91 pts. 9 PEN and 7 WS Wins, in 24 years. .615 Win pct was easily highest on the list. As was WS Win %. Top possible score here was 64.00 pts.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
This was ridiculously difficult to judge. The worst and the best stood out, but that left about ten skaters who had comparable records. Fortunately, we have YouTube. I got to see them skate and compare fundamentals such as edges, centering, clean exits to jumps, and speed over the ice. The men's draw was much easier. A lot of the women won the Olympics and retired to do other things, like become doctors and such.
16 - 1 pt - Jayne Torville
A wonderful Ice dancer. I really enjoyed watching her skate Ravel's Bolero once again. But she's just not a figure skater. The moves and requirements are completely different.
15 - 2 pts - Janet Lynn
She seems mainly to have advanced based on the school figures. Those are so boring, they were discontinued.
14 - 3 pts - Dorothy Hamill
I know she won the Olympics and had spiffy hair, but her edges just aren't as clean and secure as they could be.
16 - 1 pt - Jayne Torville
A wonderful Ice dancer. I really enjoyed watching her skate Ravel's Bolero once again. But she's just not a figure skater. The moves and requirements are completely different.
15 - 2 pts - Janet Lynn
She seems mainly to have advanced based on the school figures. Those are so boring, they were discontinued.
14 - 3 pts - Dorothy Hamill
I know she won the Olympics and had spiffy hair, but her edges just aren't as clean and secure as they could be.
Zegras11
Footballguy
Standings after Getzlaf15's rankings on Greatest MLB Managers -
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--260--3--0--1=4
2 --AAABatteries--252--2--1--4=7
3 --tuffnutt--247--3--1--3=7
4 --Zow--241--2--2--3=7
5 --Ilov80s--238--2--2--1=5
6 --otb_lifer--238--0--2--1=3
7 --DougB--236--3--1--0=4
8 --Getzlaf15--221--1--3--2=6
9 --jwb--219--1--4--1=6
10 -joffer--215--2--3--0=5
11 -Long Ball Larry--205--1--1--3=5
12 -timschochet--205--1--2--1=4
13 -Jagov--204--1--3--0=4
14 -higgins--202--1--0--2=3
15 -wikkidpissah--189--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--164--2--1--0=3
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--260--3--0--1=4
2 --AAABatteries--252--2--1--4=7
3 --tuffnutt--247--3--1--3=7
4 --Zow--241--2--2--3=7
5 --Ilov80s--238--2--2--1=5
6 --otb_lifer--238--0--2--1=3
7 --DougB--236--3--1--0=4
8 --Getzlaf15--221--1--3--2=6
9 --jwb--219--1--4--1=6
10 -joffer--215--2--3--0=5
11 -Long Ball Larry--205--1--1--3=5
12 -timschochet--205--1--2--1=4
13 -Jagov--204--1--3--0=4
14 -higgins--202--1--0--2=3
15 -wikkidpissah--189--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--164--2--1--0=3
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
13 - 4 pts - Oksana Baiul
12 - 5 pts - Tenley Albright
11 - 6 pts - Carol Heiss
10 - 7 pts - Peggy Fleming
They all won one Olympic gold. Watching them tonight, none of them seemed really great at the basic stuff. It's hard to describe, but I was just more comfortable watching the others because they seemed secure over the ice. It's just more satisfying. Sort of like knowing that Marvin Harrison's toes will be just inside the line.
12 - 5 pts - Tenley Albright
11 - 6 pts - Carol Heiss
10 - 7 pts - Peggy Fleming
They all won one Olympic gold. Watching them tonight, none of them seemed really great at the basic stuff. It's hard to describe, but I was just more comfortable watching the others because they seemed secure over the ice. It's just more satisfying. Sort of like knowing that Marvin Harrison's toes will be just inside the line.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
The next tier had a bit more separation.
9 - 8 pts - Sjoukje Dijkstra
A Dutch champion that I had not heard of. Like a lot of Dutch people, she can skate a tradition that holds true today. Their speed skaters are awesome.
8 - 9 pts - Tara Lipinski
Beat out Dijkstra because of her jumping. Not necessarily the number of rotations, but the flow over the ice coming out of the jump. Lovely to watch, but also very young and therefore not as polished as she could be.
7 - 10 pts - Midori Ito
The Jumping Flea. She had the first triple/triple, the first triple axel, and performed seven triples in one long program. No one questioned her athletic ability. She advanced ladies skating, so she gets a bump above some of the gold medalists.
6 - 11 pts - Michelle Kwan
Another who didn't win the gold, but because her skating was so good and so lovely for such a long time, she also gets a bump up the line. Ahigh quality skater who knew her stuff.
9 - 8 pts - Sjoukje Dijkstra
A Dutch champion that I had not heard of. Like a lot of Dutch people, she can skate a tradition that holds true today. Their speed skaters are awesome.
8 - 9 pts - Tara Lipinski
Beat out Dijkstra because of her jumping. Not necessarily the number of rotations, but the flow over the ice coming out of the jump. Lovely to watch, but also very young and therefore not as polished as she could be.
7 - 10 pts - Midori Ito
The Jumping Flea. She had the first triple/triple, the first triple axel, and performed seven triples in one long program. No one questioned her athletic ability. She advanced ladies skating, so she gets a bump above some of the gold medalists.
6 - 11 pts - Michelle Kwan
Another who didn't win the gold, but because her skating was so good and so lovely for such a long time, she also gets a bump up the line. Ahigh quality skater who knew her stuff.
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
And now for the final group of the evening:
5 - 12 pts - Sonja Henie
The one that started it all. She was the first to really have choreography and a skirt short enough to perofrm athletics in. I'm pretty sure she had no equivalent competitor for most of her career. She also probably made every little girl who watched her on film want to do that ice skating stuff. (Except for the ones who wanted to be like Esther Williams, of course.)
4 - 13 pts - Kristi Yamaguchi
Watching her again, I realised I'd forgotten just how good she really was. Her skills hold up over time. Great fundamentals combine with what seems like effortless skating.
3 - 14 pts - Irina Rodnina
She won three Olympic golds with two partners - Alexei Ulanov and Alexander Zaitzev. And she won ten Worlds in a row with them. (She even had a baby in there.) During the 1973 Worlds long program, the music cut out in the middle of their program. It didn't matter. They just kept on skating in unison to the non-existant music, ending at the regulation time. I can't find the recording any more, but you can hear Irina calling out the timing for her partner. I'm not sure anyone else would have tried that.
2 - 15 pts - Yuna Kim
A wonderful South Korean skater who is just on another level. She has the whole package. And a shout out to her coach, Brian Orser. He may have lost the Battle of the Brians, but his coaching is ridiculously good. He can sometimes be spotted jogging from competitor to competitor as he coaches yet another medal contender.
1 - 16 pts - Katarina Witt
Witt successfully defended her Olympic title, an uncommon thing to do. (Hi, Sonja Henie!) Her '88 skate was to Carmen. No sucking there. She also brought about a rule called the "Katarina Rule" because of her "scandalous" costume in her short program. People need to get over themselves.
Congratulations to our lovely ladies!
5 - 12 pts - Sonja Henie
The one that started it all. She was the first to really have choreography and a skirt short enough to perofrm athletics in. I'm pretty sure she had no equivalent competitor for most of her career. She also probably made every little girl who watched her on film want to do that ice skating stuff. (Except for the ones who wanted to be like Esther Williams, of course.)
4 - 13 pts - Kristi Yamaguchi
Watching her again, I realised I'd forgotten just how good she really was. Her skills hold up over time. Great fundamentals combine with what seems like effortless skating.
3 - 14 pts - Irina Rodnina
She won three Olympic golds with two partners - Alexei Ulanov and Alexander Zaitzev. And she won ten Worlds in a row with them. (She even had a baby in there.) During the 1973 Worlds long program, the music cut out in the middle of their program. It didn't matter. They just kept on skating in unison to the non-existant music, ending at the regulation time. I can't find the recording any more, but you can hear Irina calling out the timing for her partner. I'm not sure anyone else would have tried that.
2 - 15 pts - Yuna Kim
A wonderful South Korean skater who is just on another level. She has the whole package. And a shout out to her coach, Brian Orser. He may have lost the Battle of the Brians, but his coaching is ridiculously good. He can sometimes be spotted jogging from competitor to competitor as he coaches yet another medal contender.
1 - 16 pts - Katarina Witt
Witt successfully defended her Olympic title, an uncommon thing to do. (Hi, Sonja Henie!) Her '88 skate was to Carmen. No sucking there. She also brought about a rule called the "Katarina Rule" because of her "scandalous" costume in her short program. People need to get over themselves.
Congratulations to our lovely ladies!
Mrs. Rannous
Footballguy
It seems Doug watches a whole lot of figure skating. I'm impressed.
Jagov
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I should have done all the judging. You guys suck. Where is my Roy Cohn?
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Zegras11
Footballguy
Standings after Mrs Rannous Women's Ice Skating....
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--274--3--0--2=5 (bronze)
2 --tuffnutt--260--3--1--3=7
3 --AAABatteries--257--2--1--4=7
4 --DougB--252--4--1--0=5 (gold)
5 --Zow--250--2--2--3=7
6 --otb_lifer--250--0--2--1=3
7 --Ilov80s--248--2--2--1=5
8 --Getzlaf15--224--1--3--2=6
9 --joffer--221--2--3--0=5
10 -jwb--220--1--4--1=6
11 -Long Ball Larry--220--1--2--3=6. (silver)
12 -Jagov--212--1--3--0=4
13 -timschochet--209--1--2--1=4
14 -higgins--204--1--0--2=3
15 -wikkidpissah--196--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--175--2--1--0=3
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--274--3--0--2=5 (bronze)
2 --tuffnutt--260--3--1--3=7
3 --AAABatteries--257--2--1--4=7
4 --DougB--252--4--1--0=5 (gold)
5 --Zow--250--2--2--3=7
6 --otb_lifer--250--0--2--1=3
7 --Ilov80s--248--2--2--1=5
8 --Getzlaf15--224--1--3--2=6
9 --joffer--221--2--3--0=5
10 -jwb--220--1--4--1=6
11 -Long Ball Larry--220--1--2--3=6. (silver)
12 -Jagov--212--1--3--0=4
13 -timschochet--209--1--2--1=4
14 -higgins--204--1--0--2=3
15 -wikkidpissah--196--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--175--2--1--0=3
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah we were going to take Thompson but he got taken before us. Our pivot was Melo. We were banking on efficiency, legacy and legend outweighing volume. No dice but these categories are tough to judge.
I debated Miller Huggins and Francona. I went with Francona because he seemed to do more with less. Huggins just had a stacked team and as long as he didn't screw it up they were going to win. Francona actually was able to get a bunch of idiots together to break a curse. Where would Huggins have fallen in the rankings?
Zegras11
Footballguy
Lucky I was picking before you. I was debating Melo and Thompson before I started the research. I went with Melo to first research with leaning his direction but as I said before he was solid for the regular season but had a huge 6 game tourney. I really thought that would cost him.
Plus Thompson was just a freak and carried his team for multiple years. It became an easy choice.
so last since Martin had 19 pts......or do you mean he would have been 8.5th in the rankings between Sparky and Tommy?
Zegras11
Footballguy
5th mens and 3rd womens skater placement. Not bad for taking them 12th and 15th respectively. Great value for Rodnina. 15th selected for the Bronze.
Going heavy with the pennants/titles hurt Francona a bit. I think he did a better job managing than a few ahead of him but that is a difficult metric to put a score on. When comparing Francona and Huggins all the analysis I read was Huggins wasn't a good manager but he had a great team and Francona was able to get the most out of teams....that is what swayed my pick.
jwb
Footballguy
I knew I was taking a 1 for Martin, but this was my reasoning for him, and I still think if this entire list was given the same team and one season, Billy Martin wins wire to wire.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
i have some thoughts and commentary on the judging which I may or may not post, but just know that regardless of what I say, I respect and appreciate the judges' time and effort in what is a thankless job.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
Doug B said:**** Button
was he not the 3rd skater chosen?
ok, i see,you mean overall pick. I thought you were saying he was the 16th skater chosen and got a 16.
Last edited by a moderator:
Zegras11
Footballguy
Rankings of NHL Coaches -
Randomly input the names.
Have no idea who drafted Viktor Tikhonov, but I'm going to say it's really not right that he was included. I don't care if it was done in other CATS. There is no way to judge him, other than an opinion. And my opinion is that many of the coaches on the list could have done THE EXACT same thing given the level of talent, and the circumstances in which he coached. So that's how I ranked him. If I felt someone could do the same or better job, I ranked VT lower than them.
Should have been listed - Barry Trotz. 4th in Career Wins
Maybe should have been listed - Mike Babcock and Pat Quinn.
Used similar cats as MLB MGR, but could not really find a good Internet rankings list that was up-to-date. Gave the high score in a criteria a higher max than previous rankings Ive done as it was just necessary with the stats put on the table here. Instead of 4-15 max points, used 15-25 here. A coach with a .657 in 30 seasons needs twice as many points as a .565 in 18 seasons.
Coaches that won Cups when there were only six teams and had crappy season winning %'s were devalued.
1 PT - Herb Brooks. 26.54 pts. Had lowest years coached, wins, winning percentage, and only one to have coached in the NHL on this list that didn't have a cup. Did win the best hockey game ever and wish I could give him a zillion points for that.
2 PTS - Art Ross. 46.26 pts. 12 PL(ayoffs) and 2 CUPS. Had lowest PL season % at 63.2%.
3 PTS - Pat Burns. 47.01 pts. 11 PL and 1 CUP, in 14 years. Solid coach, not much outsanding compared to rest in the group.
4 PTS - Fred Shero. 47.21 pts. 8 PL and 2 CUPS, in 10 years. had 3rd highest win %, 2nd lowest on list and that cost him.
5 PTS - Mike Keenan. 50.23 pts. 13 PL and 1 CUP, in 20 years. Low PL% and Cup% kept him down towards this end.
6 PTS - Hap Day. 51.05 pts. 9 PL and 5 CUPS, in 10 years. These are nice numbers, until you see that he had cup winning teams that had .520 and .475 regular season Win%'s. His career win% was 3rd lowest on the list. This is as much credit I can give those 5 cups.
7 PTS - Ken Hitchcock. 53.43 pts. 14 PL and 1 CUP, in 23 years. .599 win % was 4th best, and 3rd best 849 career wins bumped him over Day.
8 PTS - Viktor Tikhonov. 54.00 arbitrary and final pts. This is where every coach the rest of the way would have done an equal or better job IMO.
9 PTS - Punch Imlach. 55.10 pts. 11 PL and 4 CUPS, in 14 years. 5th highest CUP%, but second lowest WIN% kept him from being higher.
10 PTS - Darryl Suter. 56.57 pts. 14PL and 2 CUPS, in 18 years. Second coach in NHL history to win a CUP on a CA team. Solid marks in all the CATS. Those above him just have more.
11 PTS - Glen Sather. 57.03 pts. 10PL and 4 CUPS, in 13 years. .602 win% was 4th highest. Cup% was 3rd highest. Others above had a lot more wins and PL seasons.
12 PTS - Al Arbour. 65.39 pts. 16 PL and 4 CUPS in 23 years. Except for the one more CUP, ranked just behind the #3 finisher here in all other CATS, in one more year behind the bench.
13 PTS - Joel Quenville. 70.47 pts. 18 PL and 3 CUPS in 22 years. One more Cup and he would have medaled here.
14 PTS - **** Irvin. 72.44 pts. 24 PL and 4 CUPS in 27 years. 88.9 PL% and 14.8% CUP% were slightly higher than Joel Q's also.
15 PTS - Toe Blake. 75.53 pts. 13 PL and 8 CUPS in 13 years. Only 100% PL on list. 61.5% CUP % is more than double everyone except Day. .634 win% was second best. Just impressive numbers, even if less years than several.
16 PTS - Scotty Bowman. 103.69 pts.
28 PL and 9 CUPS in 30 years. 28 of 30 PL seasons is insane. .657 win % is .090 more than nine on the list. His 1244 wins were more than 300 better than anyone else.
Randomly input the names.
Have no idea who drafted Viktor Tikhonov, but I'm going to say it's really not right that he was included. I don't care if it was done in other CATS. There is no way to judge him, other than an opinion. And my opinion is that many of the coaches on the list could have done THE EXACT same thing given the level of talent, and the circumstances in which he coached. So that's how I ranked him. If I felt someone could do the same or better job, I ranked VT lower than them.
Should have been listed - Barry Trotz. 4th in Career Wins
Maybe should have been listed - Mike Babcock and Pat Quinn.
Used similar cats as MLB MGR, but could not really find a good Internet rankings list that was up-to-date. Gave the high score in a criteria a higher max than previous rankings Ive done as it was just necessary with the stats put on the table here. Instead of 4-15 max points, used 15-25 here. A coach with a .657 in 30 seasons needs twice as many points as a .565 in 18 seasons.
Coaches that won Cups when there were only six teams and had crappy season winning %'s were devalued.
1 PT - Herb Brooks. 26.54 pts. Had lowest years coached, wins, winning percentage, and only one to have coached in the NHL on this list that didn't have a cup. Did win the best hockey game ever and wish I could give him a zillion points for that.
2 PTS - Art Ross. 46.26 pts. 12 PL(ayoffs) and 2 CUPS. Had lowest PL season % at 63.2%.
3 PTS - Pat Burns. 47.01 pts. 11 PL and 1 CUP, in 14 years. Solid coach, not much outsanding compared to rest in the group.
4 PTS - Fred Shero. 47.21 pts. 8 PL and 2 CUPS, in 10 years. had 3rd highest win %, 2nd lowest on list and that cost him.
5 PTS - Mike Keenan. 50.23 pts. 13 PL and 1 CUP, in 20 years. Low PL% and Cup% kept him down towards this end.
6 PTS - Hap Day. 51.05 pts. 9 PL and 5 CUPS, in 10 years. These are nice numbers, until you see that he had cup winning teams that had .520 and .475 regular season Win%'s. His career win% was 3rd lowest on the list. This is as much credit I can give those 5 cups.
7 PTS - Ken Hitchcock. 53.43 pts. 14 PL and 1 CUP, in 23 years. .599 win % was 4th best, and 3rd best 849 career wins bumped him over Day.
8 PTS - Viktor Tikhonov. 54.00 arbitrary and final pts. This is where every coach the rest of the way would have done an equal or better job IMO.
9 PTS - Punch Imlach. 55.10 pts. 11 PL and 4 CUPS, in 14 years. 5th highest CUP%, but second lowest WIN% kept him from being higher.
10 PTS - Darryl Suter. 56.57 pts. 14PL and 2 CUPS, in 18 years. Second coach in NHL history to win a CUP on a CA team. Solid marks in all the CATS. Those above him just have more.
11 PTS - Glen Sather. 57.03 pts. 10PL and 4 CUPS, in 13 years. .602 win% was 4th highest. Cup% was 3rd highest. Others above had a lot more wins and PL seasons.
12 PTS - Al Arbour. 65.39 pts. 16 PL and 4 CUPS in 23 years. Except for the one more CUP, ranked just behind the #3 finisher here in all other CATS, in one more year behind the bench.
13 PTS - Joel Quenville. 70.47 pts. 18 PL and 3 CUPS in 22 years. One more Cup and he would have medaled here.
14 PTS - **** Irvin. 72.44 pts. 24 PL and 4 CUPS in 27 years. 88.9 PL% and 14.8% CUP% were slightly higher than Joel Q's also.
15 PTS - Toe Blake. 75.53 pts. 13 PL and 8 CUPS in 13 years. Only 100% PL on list. 61.5% CUP % is more than double everyone except Day. .634 win% was second best. Just impressive numbers, even if less years than several.
16 PTS - Scotty Bowman. 103.69 pts.
28 PL and 9 CUPS in 30 years. 28 of 30 PL seasons is insane. .657 win % is .090 more than nine on the list. His 1244 wins were more than 300 better than anyone else.
Zegras11
Footballguy
Standings after Getzlaf15's rankings of NHL Coaches -
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--284--3--0--2=5
2 --AAABatteries--270--2--1--4=7
3 --DougB--267--4--2--0=6. (silver)
4 --tuffnutt--261--3--1--3=7
5 --Zow--259--2--2--3=7
6 --Ilov80s--255--2--2--1=5
7 --otb_lifer--254--0--2--1=3
8 --Getzlaf15--236--1--3--2=6
9 --jwb--228--1--4--1=6
10 -Jagov--228--2--3--0=5. (gold)
11 -joffer--226--2--3--0=5
12 -Long Ball Larry--226--1--2--3=6
13 -timschochet--223--1--2--2=5. (bronze)
14 -higgins--215--1--0--2=3
15 -wikkidpissah--198--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--178--2--1--0=3
--STANDINGS--GOLD--SILVER--BRONZE--TOTAL
1 --Gally--284--3--0--2=5
2 --AAABatteries--270--2--1--4=7
3 --DougB--267--4--2--0=6. (silver)
4 --tuffnutt--261--3--1--3=7
5 --Zow--259--2--2--3=7
6 --Ilov80s--255--2--2--1=5
7 --otb_lifer--254--0--2--1=3
8 --Getzlaf15--236--1--3--2=6
9 --jwb--228--1--4--1=6
10 -Jagov--228--2--3--0=5. (gold)
11 -joffer--226--2--3--0=5
12 -Long Ball Larry--226--1--2--3=6
13 -timschochet--223--1--2--2=5. (bronze)
14 -higgins--215--1--0--2=3
15 -wikkidpissah--198--1--0--4=5
16 -Kal El--178--2--1--0=3
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Heavyweight Boxing Rankings
Refresher that my scoring system is weighted 4 points possible for impact on boxing, cultural impact and quality of competition. 6 points were possible for dominance and longevity. Ties were broken by BoxerRec rankings.
16. (1 pt) Onomastos of Smyrna- wrote the rules for boxing and won the first Olympic medal for it in Ancient Greece. Quality of competition is highly suspect though.
15. (2 pt) Gene Tunney- heck of a technical boxer who is most famous for ending the reign of HW Champ Jack Dempsey. He beat Dempsey in the controversial long count rematch as well. Tunney only ever lost once, to the legendary Harry Greb. Tunney avenged the loss 3 times. Tunney is probably the best fighter of the WW1 era. He’s a dedicated veteran with many many medals having served during both World Wars (no combat though). So how come he is ranked so low? He wasn’t really a heavyweight. He fought almost his entire career at light heavyweight. Tunney only fought in 3 Heavyweight title fights in his career. 2 wins over Dempsey (who retired after those 2 losses) and a win over Tom Heaney (who only won 5 of his next 22 fights).
14. (3 pt) Sam Langford- He actually has less World Heavyweight Title fights than Tunney. Langford would never even compete in a World Heavyweight Title Fight. Unfortunately, this was due to racism. White heavyweight champions refused to fight him and even when Jack Johnson became the first black World HW Champ, Jack kept up the tradition by mostly refusing to fight black fighters. Even when Jackson finally fought black contenders, he still refused to fight Langford. Langford also wasn’t a true Heavyweight, he bounced around through a lot of divisions taking on whomever would fight him. His final fight was Middleweight, not Heavyweight. His wins over early legends like Joe Gans, Jim Jeanette, Harry Willis and Sam McVea are significant but he also took a lot of losses. He lost 6 consecutive fights to Harry Willis.
13. (4 pt) Joe Frazier: I can already hear the complaints coming in but Smokin’ Joe’s signature opponents were Ali and Foreman. He went 1-4 against them and took an incredible beating in those fights. Joe is a warrior who will forever be tied to the glory days of heavyweight fights but like Thomas Hearns was in the 80s, the fan friendly Frazier found himself coming up short when compared to his superior peers.
12. (5 pt) Jack Dempsey: One of the premier stars of boxing, Dempsey was probably the most famous and highly paid athlete of the 1920s. The Manasa Mauler gave the fans what they wanted: action. He was the headliner of the 1st ever million dollar gate and first ever 2 million dollar gate. His fights pioneered the coverage of live sports. His signature win is probably the 1st round obliteration of Jess Willard. Despite giving up 5 inches and 60 pounds, Dempsey knocked Willard down 7 times in the 1st round breaking his jaw, ribs, orbital bone and knocking out several teeth of WIllards. The knocks against Dempsey are significant though. He dodged black fighters and had periods of inactivity. Many of his wins came while touring the country and fighting much weaker competition. He ultimately lost his title to the great Gene Tunney but as previously noted, Tunney was really a light heavyweight. He retired at 32, an age where many heavyweights are peaking. Just to put it into perspective, the next guy on the list had 16 title fights after the age of 32.
11. (6 pt) Evander Holyfield: Interesting to compare and contrast Holyfield to Dempsey. Both were small for heavyweights but unlike Dempsey, Holyfield didn’t dodge anyone. Evander was as game as they come. With that came some losses though. That balance of quality of competition with the defeats that come with it is difficult to in these rankings. The names on his resume are quite incredible: Larry Holmes, George Foreman, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, James Toney. Where Dempsey stepped away too early, Holyfield didn’t know when to hang it up (it’s a shame someone in his family couldn’t have convinced him to retire about 7 years earlier than he did) and somewhat tarnished his reputation toward the end. Still, he deserves a lot of credit for longevity. Holyfield spent 12 years battling back and forth with some of the best HWs of multiple eras, truly leaving a piece of himself in the ring.
10-6 to come in the not too distant future
Refresher that my scoring system is weighted 4 points possible for impact on boxing, cultural impact and quality of competition. 6 points were possible for dominance and longevity. Ties were broken by BoxerRec rankings.
16. (1 pt) Onomastos of Smyrna- wrote the rules for boxing and won the first Olympic medal for it in Ancient Greece. Quality of competition is highly suspect though.
15. (2 pt) Gene Tunney- heck of a technical boxer who is most famous for ending the reign of HW Champ Jack Dempsey. He beat Dempsey in the controversial long count rematch as well. Tunney only ever lost once, to the legendary Harry Greb. Tunney avenged the loss 3 times. Tunney is probably the best fighter of the WW1 era. He’s a dedicated veteran with many many medals having served during both World Wars (no combat though). So how come he is ranked so low? He wasn’t really a heavyweight. He fought almost his entire career at light heavyweight. Tunney only fought in 3 Heavyweight title fights in his career. 2 wins over Dempsey (who retired after those 2 losses) and a win over Tom Heaney (who only won 5 of his next 22 fights).
14. (3 pt) Sam Langford- He actually has less World Heavyweight Title fights than Tunney. Langford would never even compete in a World Heavyweight Title Fight. Unfortunately, this was due to racism. White heavyweight champions refused to fight him and even when Jack Johnson became the first black World HW Champ, Jack kept up the tradition by mostly refusing to fight black fighters. Even when Jackson finally fought black contenders, he still refused to fight Langford. Langford also wasn’t a true Heavyweight, he bounced around through a lot of divisions taking on whomever would fight him. His final fight was Middleweight, not Heavyweight. His wins over early legends like Joe Gans, Jim Jeanette, Harry Willis and Sam McVea are significant but he also took a lot of losses. He lost 6 consecutive fights to Harry Willis.
13. (4 pt) Joe Frazier: I can already hear the complaints coming in but Smokin’ Joe’s signature opponents were Ali and Foreman. He went 1-4 against them and took an incredible beating in those fights. Joe is a warrior who will forever be tied to the glory days of heavyweight fights but like Thomas Hearns was in the 80s, the fan friendly Frazier found himself coming up short when compared to his superior peers.
12. (5 pt) Jack Dempsey: One of the premier stars of boxing, Dempsey was probably the most famous and highly paid athlete of the 1920s. The Manasa Mauler gave the fans what they wanted: action. He was the headliner of the 1st ever million dollar gate and first ever 2 million dollar gate. His fights pioneered the coverage of live sports. His signature win is probably the 1st round obliteration of Jess Willard. Despite giving up 5 inches and 60 pounds, Dempsey knocked Willard down 7 times in the 1st round breaking his jaw, ribs, orbital bone and knocking out several teeth of WIllards. The knocks against Dempsey are significant though. He dodged black fighters and had periods of inactivity. Many of his wins came while touring the country and fighting much weaker competition. He ultimately lost his title to the great Gene Tunney but as previously noted, Tunney was really a light heavyweight. He retired at 32, an age where many heavyweights are peaking. Just to put it into perspective, the next guy on the list had 16 title fights after the age of 32.
11. (6 pt) Evander Holyfield: Interesting to compare and contrast Holyfield to Dempsey. Both were small for heavyweights but unlike Dempsey, Holyfield didn’t dodge anyone. Evander was as game as they come. With that came some losses though. That balance of quality of competition with the defeats that come with it is difficult to in these rankings. The names on his resume are quite incredible: Larry Holmes, George Foreman, Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, James Toney. Where Dempsey stepped away too early, Holyfield didn’t know when to hang it up (it’s a shame someone in his family couldn’t have convinced him to retire about 7 years earlier than he did) and somewhat tarnished his reputation toward the end. Still, he deserves a lot of credit for longevity. Holyfield spent 12 years battling back and forth with some of the best HWs of multiple eras, truly leaving a piece of himself in the ring.
10-6 to come in the not too distant future
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wikkidpissah
Footballguy
the fighter who made heavyweight boxing rise one point behind the guy who reigned over its fall....
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I’m assume that’s Dempsey and Holyfield. I think I laid out a fine case why Dempsey is a bit overrated.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Looking at HW, I think the best guys got taken. There wasn’t any screaming misses like we had at non HW.
I figured Frazier would be ranked a bit better since you had said strength of competition would be a factor. Yes he went 1-4 against Ali and Foreman but one is the best and the other is not far behind. I think putting Frazier in a different era and he rates better.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah it’s tough doing these. Does quality of competition matter if you are getting your brains beat in? Big George didn’t just beat Frazier twice, he destroyed him. I was surprised by how low Frazier scored out for me but I stuck to my system.
Zow
Footballguy
By the best ever and probably a top 5 ever? Yes, I would give that some credit. I understand where you are coming from though. Difficult rankings.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I definitely give credit for losses to great fighters if those losses are competitive. I just can't give much credit for getting knocked down 6 times in less than 2 rounds or having the corner throw in the towel out of sympathy in the 5th round after Foreman hit Frazier so hard that he was lifted off his feet. If this was about heart alone, Frazier might be number 1. I just rewatched Frazier vs Foreman 1 to confirm my opinion and it's actually difficult to watch. The kind of beat down that can take years off a life. Also noteworthy that Frazier's career was basically over by age 32.
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jwb
Footballguy
That would be me. Thanks for not giving me a third 1 in a row
I did lead this thing for about ten seconds.I think guys like this need to be included, and he's slotted right about where he belongs. Your reasoning (everyone else above would have done just as well) is sound.
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Mister CIA
Footballguy
Hey man, just want to apologize for being a jerk, but Carmelo was easiliy worth 2 points.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
We still have a long ways to go but I find it interesting that at this point the top-4 were picks 1-4 and the bottom-4 were picks 13-16. Not certain if that's just random or is somehow meaningful.
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