Steve Tasker
Footballguy
It was a run. EJ time.
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2021 Buffalo Bills - Same as it ever was*** (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter GroveDiesel
- Start date
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I give the dude a ton of credit. It was obvious he was not good enough and instead of hanging around and collecting another nice paycheck he called it a day.
At least Marrone can't continue in his stupid belief that Orton failed because he wasn't there in the off season.
At least Marrone can't continue in his stupid belief that Orton failed because he wasn't there in the off season.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
Oh boy. Where do we go from here? Who is going to be out QB next year?
I'm hoping Bradford, RGIII, Cutler or someone else with upside becomes available.
I am not an EJ believer.
I'm hoping Bradford, RGIII, Cutler or someone else with upside becomes available.
I am not an EJ believer.
Gawain
Footballguy
Good for him. Made his nut and is going to go enjoy his family. He didn't have to come play and it was a good thing for the Bills that he did.
I would really like to see the team pick up a day 2 QB and a day 3 QB. The more options the better.
As for the draft, where do we stand? We give up our first and fourth for Watkins. There's something going on with SF's 4th and I can't imagine that Brown hit performance clauses so this pick to Philly may not come due until 2016 and I can't imagine that Stevie hit the performance clauses to turn this into a third round pick. Then we have Tampa's 5th.
So 2,3,4 (SF), 5, 5 (TB), 6, 7
Obviously it depends on who is available, and what type of trades you can make, but I'm thinking the team would be better off trying to find a stud guard with their 1st pick instead of trying to force a QB pick in that spot. Would like to see a better line and running game to complement the defense. Someone like EJ could win games in that situation I believe, but they should also bring in a vet and another young QB to compete with him.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
I agree, EJ + 1 Rookie + 1 Vet - let them battle it out in camp.
IMHO - EJ is worse than most backups in the league and Tuel shouldn't even be in the league. They need to try to get a QB in the draft. Doesn't have to be with their 2nd rounder, but I'm sure there will be a spot in the draft where it will make sense to nab someone.
Cutler, Bradford, RG3 are all bad. I don't mind a flyer on any of them, but I hope the Bills don't overpay.
Orton retiring is great news for the Bills. Not an EJ believer either, but Orton clearly wasn't the answer.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Orton was not very good, and good for him for realizing this. With decent QB play next year this team has a real shot at the playoffs. The problem is they are going to struggle to find decent qb play. Lots of question marks heading into next year.
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Mark Ludwiczak @MarkLud12 Follow
Jerry Hughes would like to return to Buffalo, but also laughed when asked about a hometown discount. Hughes: "I've never heard of that."
Jerry Hughes would like to return to Buffalo, but also laughed when asked about a hometown discount. Hughes: "I've never heard of that."
Gawain
Footballguy
Born in Texas and played his college ball there.
Been with the Bills two years.
Can't really blame him for not feeling tremendous loyalty.
We did get the better of the Colts in the deal though.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
Orton certainly wasn't the answer, but could he be maybe the 3rd best QB the Bills have had since Doug Flutie left (after Bledsoe and Fitz)? We've spent the entire last 2 months complaining about him, but he did pull off a few late comebacks, lead the team to 3 wins over 10+ win playoff teams, and they just beat New England at Gillette for the first time ever. The Bills hadn't beaten the Patriots on the road in regulation since 1994. I'm not putting much stock in the game, but I don't know that they win it with EJ under center....it's a nice confidence boost regardless. He was 7-5 as a starter for the Bills....nearly just what the Bills needed, a game manager who didn't kill the team every game. Some years, 9-7 is good enough for the playoffs....but the AFC was up and the NFC was down this year. Unlucky.
Good for him for going out on his own terms.
I agree that they need to bring in both a rookie and a vet this offseason. Let EJ try to win the job, but I don't know if it's gonna happen.
Good for him for going out on his own terms.
I agree that they need to bring in both a rookie and a vet this offseason. Let EJ try to win the job, but I don't know if it's gonna happen.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Good for Orton. Lots of respect for the guy for having the right priorities. All things considered, he had a pretty good career.
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
He's gone. Let him go. He's gonna look for the biggest pay day. We won't be able to do that.
He's gonna realize quickly after how hard it is to get sacks when he's not playing next to 3 pro bowlers on the line.
Bills 2015 schedule looks pretty favorable.
Home games: NE, MIA, NYJ, HOU, IND, DAL, NYG, CIN
Away games: NE, MIA, NYJ, JAX, TEN, PHI, WAS, KC
Home games: NE, MIA, NYJ, HOU, IND, DAL, NYG, CIN
Away games: NE, MIA, NYJ, JAX, TEN, PHI, WAS, KC
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
That road schedule in particular is about as friendly as it could have possibly been.
OC Zed
Footballguy
Why blame Russ Brandon here? He's been incredibly successful at regionalizing the franchise and making it economically viable to stay in Western NY. He (happily) relinquished overall control of football operations to a qualified GM candidate (Whaley) - which GM has done a pretty solid job in his first couple years on the job (QB notwithstanding).
What good does it do to remove him?
he's not that good. this team can't keep moving multiple picks for players unless they are a sure thing. jury still out on Cousins imo.
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OC Zed
Footballguy
Exactly. Cousins was exposed after starting only a few games. There is no point bringing in another mediocre talent at the position.
I'm not even a fan of using a mid-round pick in this draft on a rookie QB. The number of starting QBs in this league that come after Round 3 is astoundingly low. Those picks can be better served by adding talent/depth at other key areas (O and D lines, LBs, CBs, etc.). Bring in another veteran QB with still some potential upside (i.e., Bradford or maybe Cutler) and have him compete with EJ for the job. That's really our best option.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Because Brandon did a whole lot more than regionalize the Bills. He's the one that kept all those old timers around that have been handicapping the Bills for years and years. He's the one that tied the hands of Whaley and Marrone on a lot of football decisions by giving their authority to old guys with proven failed track records.
Quite simply, he did some good for the Bills and a WHOLE lot of bad. The Pegulas can handle a lot of the business side stuff just fine without him. Time for a house cleaning of these "Lifers" that have been part of a loser culture for way too long.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
No interest in Cousins. If RGIII is available, I'm interested if the price is right.
With draft, I'd rather go O-line.
With draft, I'd rather go O-line.
that article was written while Ralph Wilson was still around. New World Order with the Pegula Bills now, so not sure why Brandon doing what Wilson wanted makes him a bad guy all of a sudden.
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Tim Graham @ByTimGraham · 57m 57 minutes ago
The more I hear, the more I'm inclined to believe Bill Polian will return to the Bills. But nothing guaranteed.
Tim Graham @ByTimGraham · 51m 51 minutes ago
Two Bills sources tell me no one of note in Bills front office or coaching staff has been informed he WILL be back next season.
Tim Graham @ByTimGraham · 11m 11 minutes ago
Interesting to me that when Orton told Marrone about retirement, Marrone called owner and told Brandon to inform Whaley.
The more I hear, the more I'm inclined to believe Bill Polian will return to the Bills. But nothing guaranteed.
Tim Graham @ByTimGraham · 51m 51 minutes ago
Two Bills sources tell me no one of note in Bills front office or coaching staff has been informed he WILL be back next season.
Tim Graham @ByTimGraham · 11m 11 minutes ago
Interesting to me that when Orton told Marrone about retirement, Marrone called owner and told Brandon to inform Whaley.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Brandon was making all team decisions for at least 2 years before Ralph died. For all intents and purposes, he was acting as team owner.
he said he talked to Wilson on the phone once/day.
you think it would go over well if he took over the team and fired guys that were with the team for 30 years? Wilson would have been cool with that in your opinion?
He hired guys like Whaley and Marrone in an attempt to move the franchise forward. Not as easy to get rid of guys the team owner probably considered part of his family.
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Bills_Fan11
Footballguy
Defending Russ is weird to me. Marrone stuck in 1975 has proven to be the total opposite of everything he claimed they were looking for - innovative, forward thinking, analytics..
You want to leave him in Marketing fine, whatever, that's what he was with the Marlins.
You want to leave him in Marketing fine, whatever, that's what he was with the Marlins.
Marrone was a Whaley hire, wasn't he?
If he's a huge problem, shouldn't they dump him first? What does that have to do with Brandon running the business side of things?
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On The Rocks
Evil Conservative
a few thoughts that go all over the place;
I would be on board to bring Bill Polian in as a consultant to the owner but nothing long term.
Have him come in, meet with all the current staff, ask each staff member what their vision is, put together an evaluation, and present recommendations to the owner and move on. Then Pegula can make any staff decisions based on somewhat informed and educated inside knowledge from a respected third party.
Although, I would be curious also to see just what Polian could bring to the table as a more involved front office guy - he certainly has a proven success record - I think Whaley is doing a better than avg job - minus the EJ pick (which say what you will, I put that on him and not Buddy), and the move to trade up for Watkins when there was so much WR talent in this years draft. Outside of those two moves, I like Whaley a lot, the problem is, those are too ginormous "oofs".
Brandon isn't making player decisions - he is doing fine in his role.
The staff on defense is better than avg - and the offensive staff - who really knows what you have there when you have had second string QBs running the team for the past decade and a half?
Kirk Cousins would be worth a late round pick (Maybe even as late as a 7th - with potential to move up to a 6th or 5th depending on what results he brought).
What other current NFL QB options are there? Bradford? Hoyer? Neither of which are worth getting into a bidding war with anyone. There have been more than a couple QBs taken in the 2nd round or later that have had success in the NFL recently, and I would include Derek Carr in that category. I wouldn't give you a warm second string special team body in exchange for Cutler. Could he bring some excitment? Sure, I think so, but I don't believe he would bring a championship, and that's all I want.
With Cousins, despite a horrible up and down year that ended being behind Colt McCoy on the depth chart, you still don't really know what he is capable of.
They clearly need a QB upgrade, and two guards, and I think one good guard would help mask the issue of needing two.
A play making TE, and they are horribly thin at depth all over. With the likely loss of CJ Spiller and one more year older for Fred Jackson, they will need to work Bryce Brown hard in the off season to see if they need to draft a RB.
I hope they don't make any front office changes but it sure sounds like the GM and the HC don't like one another. They might get one more year to work out their differences. If I were to pick one of them to be moved - I think I would lean toward keeping Whaley and wave good bye to Marrone - (as long as Schwartz was kept on staff to run the defense).
I hate hate hate talking about the off season before the playoffs have even begun.
This crap has got to come to an end at some point. Doesn't it?
I would be on board to bring Bill Polian in as a consultant to the owner but nothing long term.
Have him come in, meet with all the current staff, ask each staff member what their vision is, put together an evaluation, and present recommendations to the owner and move on. Then Pegula can make any staff decisions based on somewhat informed and educated inside knowledge from a respected third party.
Although, I would be curious also to see just what Polian could bring to the table as a more involved front office guy - he certainly has a proven success record - I think Whaley is doing a better than avg job - minus the EJ pick (which say what you will, I put that on him and not Buddy), and the move to trade up for Watkins when there was so much WR talent in this years draft. Outside of those two moves, I like Whaley a lot, the problem is, those are too ginormous "oofs".
Brandon isn't making player decisions - he is doing fine in his role.
The staff on defense is better than avg - and the offensive staff - who really knows what you have there when you have had second string QBs running the team for the past decade and a half?
Kirk Cousins would be worth a late round pick (Maybe even as late as a 7th - with potential to move up to a 6th or 5th depending on what results he brought).
What other current NFL QB options are there? Bradford? Hoyer? Neither of which are worth getting into a bidding war with anyone. There have been more than a couple QBs taken in the 2nd round or later that have had success in the NFL recently, and I would include Derek Carr in that category. I wouldn't give you a warm second string special team body in exchange for Cutler. Could he bring some excitment? Sure, I think so, but I don't believe he would bring a championship, and that's all I want.
With Cousins, despite a horrible up and down year that ended being behind Colt McCoy on the depth chart, you still don't really know what he is capable of.
They clearly need a QB upgrade, and two guards, and I think one good guard would help mask the issue of needing two.
A play making TE, and they are horribly thin at depth all over. With the likely loss of CJ Spiller and one more year older for Fred Jackson, they will need to work Bryce Brown hard in the off season to see if they need to draft a RB.
I hope they don't make any front office changes but it sure sounds like the GM and the HC don't like one another. They might get one more year to work out their differences. If I were to pick one of them to be moved - I think I would lean toward keeping Whaley and wave good bye to Marrone - (as long as Schwartz was kept on staff to run the defense).
I hate hate hate talking about the off season before the playoffs have even begun.
This crap has got to come to an end at some point. Doesn't it?
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
I might be the only one, but I hope that Marrone moves on and the Bills hire Rex Ryan.
Bills_Fan11
Footballguy
Prefer more offense than what Rexy brings but ya Marrone is a clown. Leaking your contact clause to your same-agent buddy Schefter...and then say "I don't talk about my contact" when questioned on it...really Doug? Seems like such a political D'bag. Imagine the stunts he'd pull if he actually had real leverage.
Again, he's getting tons of mileage out of Wandsteadts cluelesness in 2012.
2004-2005 = 2014-2015.
9-7 the first yr w/ a stacked D/Special Teams, crappy offense led by a washout QB with an offensive minded meathead coach. I hope 2015 is better than '05 but not optimistic as the defense is more likely to regress than the offense is to improve.
Again, he's getting tons of mileage out of Wandsteadts cluelesness in 2012.
2004-2005 = 2014-2015.
9-7 the first yr w/ a stacked D/Special Teams, crappy offense led by a washout QB with an offensive minded meathead coach. I hope 2015 is better than '05 but not optimistic as the defense is more likely to regress than the offense is to improve.
Borden
Footballguy
I haven't been following this thread all season but some of these complaints need addressing.
First, the Watkins trade/pick isn't an "oof" 65/982/6 as a rookie, and dinged up, on a run first team, a winning team, with EJ and Orton throwing the ball is nothing to be ashamed of. I didn't like the trade but making a bold move to get what many people considered a generational talent isn't the worst move.
Second this team was in the hunt in Week 16 and had a couple of losses that easily could've been wins. There's hope on the horizon. It's been awhile since I felt like the Bills could realistically be a playoff team. My point being there's no need to overhaul GMs and front office or the coaching staff. Put 100% focus on next year and see how things turn out. If they miss playoffs next season then start letting the heads roll. Coaching turnover hurts teams.
Cutler, Hoyer, Cousins or whoever would be a welcome addition as long as the price tag isn't outrageous. Do you guys not remember how horrible EJ was? What's the lowest you'd put Cutler? Top 20 QB in the league? EJ is probably a top 50 QB. Bring in every and all QBs in that they can. We just need one year.
I'm a believer in drafting best player available but drafting OL is never a bad move at any point. I think I'm on the same page as most of you for this one.
First, the Watkins trade/pick isn't an "oof" 65/982/6 as a rookie, and dinged up, on a run first team, a winning team, with EJ and Orton throwing the ball is nothing to be ashamed of. I didn't like the trade but making a bold move to get what many people considered a generational talent isn't the worst move.
Second this team was in the hunt in Week 16 and had a couple of losses that easily could've been wins. There's hope on the horizon. It's been awhile since I felt like the Bills could realistically be a playoff team. My point being there's no need to overhaul GMs and front office or the coaching staff. Put 100% focus on next year and see how things turn out. If they miss playoffs next season then start letting the heads roll. Coaching turnover hurts teams.
Cutler, Hoyer, Cousins or whoever would be a welcome addition as long as the price tag isn't outrageous. Do you guys not remember how horrible EJ was? What's the lowest you'd put Cutler? Top 20 QB in the league? EJ is probably a top 50 QB. Bring in every and all QBs in that they can. We just need one year.
I'm a believer in drafting best player available but drafting OL is never a bad move at any point. I think I'm on the same page as most of you for this one.
you've never seen an NFL player improve in year 3 of his career?
time to write off a QB with just 14 career NFL starts? with a 6-8 record and 16 TD/12 INT ratio?
I don't think he's the answer, but I don't think most of the other retreads people are hoping will come in and save the team are going to be much better.
Borden
Footballguy
I'm not saying he can't and I'm not saying to release him or bury him on the depth chart. Nor am I saying any of these other guys are the savour. However, the idea of having EJ as the only option next season is scary. Have a true open QB competition in camp and go with the best option.
Also, I think the best option to replace Spiller and relieve Jackson would be to get a FA RB. They seem to be relatively cheap these days. I'm not exactly sure who will hit the market but I'm sure someone will.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
Yeah, I really don't think the Watkins move was that bad. I hear a lot of criticism about it. Yes, there were other players around that the Bills could've had...Odell Beckham, Mike Evans, Kelvin Benjamin, whatever. But Watkins is a superstar in the making. We spent the entire season #####ing about how brutally bad the QB play was, and he nearly had 1000 yards. Based on my eye test, he's a playmaker of the highest caliber, and I really believe that. If you put him on the Giants, I wouldn't be surprised if he exceeds Beckham's numbers. And vice versa, you put Beckham on the Bills and I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't get to Sammy's numbers. There's a lot to be said about the Bills' offense...they just were not able to get him the ball. They were largely incompetent.
I won't crucify Whaley for the move. They had the guy at the top of their board, and they went and got him. The Bills have an unbelievably elite player. Now the coaching staff needs to figure out how to get him the ball (those same last 2 sentences could be said about CJ Spiller too, eh?).
I won't crucify Whaley for the move. They had the guy at the top of their board, and they went and got him. The Bills have an unbelievably elite player. Now the coaching staff needs to figure out how to get him the ball (those same last 2 sentences could be said about CJ Spiller too, eh?).
I love Sammy. Cleveland drafted what looks like a bust in Gilbert with the pick they got last year. Sure, Beckham and the other WRs had great rookie years but Sammy has All Pro potential too.
I'm glad the Bills aren't stuck with Johnny Football, but do wish they found a way to get Bridgewater when he fell.
I'm glad the Bills aren't stuck with Johnny Football, but do wish they found a way to get Bridgewater when he fell.
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Bills_Fan11
Footballguy
I can't for the life of me understand why it's so hard to understand that Watkins can be great and the trade can still be bad. Who cares if he'd have better #s on the Giants or if Beckham's #s would be worse here. The point is Beckham is obviously in the same tier. When Dez Bryant and Julio Jones are in the same draft you don't trade a 1st and say "see? He's not a bust!" You take whichever is available. It's a scouting failure, period.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
No, a true scouting failure would be trading to up to get a guy who busts or underperforms his draft position. The Bills gave up quite a bit to get Watkins, but at least he delivered as advertised.
Would you really be happier if we had stood pat and taken Ebron instead?
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Is anyone buying Schefter's stuff about how Marrone would be teams' #1 option if he left the Bills?
Seems like total nonsense to me and like the fact they have the same agent really is heavily influencing Schefter here.
Seems like total nonsense to me and like the fact they have the same agent really is heavily influencing Schefter here.
On The Rocks
Evil Conservative
I could see where he could get an interview, but there is no chance he would be any teams #1 choice.
Maybe a #1 choice as an OC. Maybe.
I think Marrone is shooting himself in the foot with the whole "leaking the out clause" in his contract.
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OC Zed
Footballguy
Ya, I totally buy it... in his second year as a head coach, he brought his team to the first winning season in a decade with marginal talent at the most important position (QB). That's a pretty significant achievement. Bills fans need to have some perspective here.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Seriously? I agree that the QB position is a major problem. But I think he has made enough bad decisions both in game and in personnel that it's hard for me to give him too much credit.
My biggest beef with him is his absolute stubborness in his "system". That has lead to crazy decisions in game on 4th down situations and horrible player utilization. Yeah, the QB position was awful as was the O-line, but instead of acknowledging that and moving to some quick crosses to Watkins or screens to Spiller, they continued to force their "system". So we got Spiller up the middle, or trying to get an edge without a blocking TE, or running Watkins deep over and over. Or leaving the TE completely out of the passing game.
The best coaches use their talent to their best advantage and use scheme to mask weaknesses. Marrone and Hackett have absolutely refused to do that.
And Marrone's complete lack of understanding analytics is unreal to me. To argue with reporters about 4th down playcalling when he was clearly wrong was crazy. And his latest screed about analytics was downright hilarious. It's just an old man jock rambling about something that he realizes is important without having any clue what it really is.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
And seriously, Brandon has to be made of Teflon or something. He gets credit for "regionalizing" the team and yet the Toronto series was an epic disaster. What else did he really do beyond that? Seems more like the popularity of the NFL in general coupled with no other competition in the area is as much responsible as anything Brandon did. Do Brandon supporters even have anything he specifically did?
And it's hilarious that he gets a pass on any football operations decisions he made. Ralph didn't just have him around as a figurehead. He had a lot more influence than people want to give him credit for on that side.
And it's hilarious that he gets a pass on any football operations decisions he made. Ralph didn't just have him around as a figurehead. He had a lot more influence than people want to give him credit for on that side.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
I don't see it this way at all. (ETA - I agree that he can be great and it can be a bad trade, but I don't see this as a bad trade)
There will always be players who surprise and perform better than their draft position. Aaron Donald doesn't get picked at #13 if they re-run the draft, and Clowney doesn't go #1. The Bills traded #8, #19, and a 4th rounder (I don't have the number) to get Sammy Watkins, an elite player who many scouts had as the #1 offensive player on the board. A surefire superstar, ready to star on day 1. And that's exactly what the Bills look to have gotten out of Watkins, an NFL-ready, explosive playmaker who has the tools to be the best player in the league at his position.
Who do the Bills take at #8? Maybe Odell Beckham. But maybe they take Justin Gilbert or Eric Ebron. Who knows. Here's a list of the past few picks at #19 overall...Ja'Wuan James (Dolphins OT - 2014), Justin Pugh (Giants OT - 2013), Shea McClellin (Bears DE - 2012), Prince Amukamara (Giants CB - 2011), Sean Witherspoon (Falcons LB - 2010). Maybe you hit on a player at #19, but maybe you don't.
For me personally, would I rather have Beckham and this year's #19 and 4th? Probably. But would I rather have Watkins instead of Ebron/Gilbert, #19, and the 4th? Absolutely. The bottom line, in my mind, is that they believed in a guy and they went out and got him, and he looks to be a superstar. If I'm gonna fault the front office for anything, it's wasting a first on EJ, not trading up to get Sammy.
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OC Zed
Footballguy
Every fan base loves to point out the flaws of their coaches. Packers fans love to #### about Mike McCarthy's play calling and game management too. If you find the perfect coach, chances are a leprechaun and unicorn will also be hanging out with him.
I acknowledge that Spiller's usage has been debatable (to be kind),* but it's also unfair to say that Marrone is stuck to his "system." The offensive gamelans have morphed dramatically in the last two years from a high-tempo, run-first approach to a methodical short-passing game. The results have obviously been inconsistent, but the logic was sound (the lack of sufficient run-blocking, less athletic QB, depleted depth at RB, etc.).
I don't quibble so much with the 4th down play-calling, particularly with a top-notch defense to depend on. Again, if you are going to pick on Marrone for that then you have to be willing to criticize at least 28 other NFL coaches for the same methodology.
*ETA: The coaches did call a number of plays for Spiller designed to go outside which were blown up by the poor blocking. That's not on the coaches playacting. We saw more of this this year as well (particularly the Oakland game).
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