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2021 Buffalo Bills - Same as it ever was*** (3 Viewers)

I'm just throwing this out there: EJ Manuel's stats through his first 14 games are very similar to Joe Flacco's. Flacco was a guy who really struggled his first several years and many Raven fans wanted him gone. Great defense that was held back by a QB learning the pro game. Guy criticized for having lots of arm strength but not enough accuracy.

And here we are today. The truth is that QB development really can take several years and mediocre/sometimes bad QBs can develop into top QBs.

I'm not saying Manuel will, but it still feels like too much dirt has been shoveled on Manuel this early in his career.

 
@AdamSchefter: Bills are bringing back former Jets HC Rex Ryan for a second interview tonight in Florida, per league sources.
This pleases me.
Me too. I like Schwartz and what he has done and I'm not convinced that Rex would be great for Manuel and the offense, but I do think he's a good coach, players buy in and play hard for him, and he is the most sure thing coaching candidate out there. Other coordinators could turn out to be great head coaches, but Rex already is a darn good one IMO.

 
I'm just throwing this out there: EJ Manuel's stats through his first 14 games are very similar to Joe Flacco's. Flacco was a guy who really struggled his first several years and many Raven fans wanted him gone. Great defense that was held back by a QB learning the pro game. Guy criticized for having lots of arm strength but not enough accuracy.

And here we are today. The truth is that QB development really can take several years and mediocre/sometimes bad QBs can develop into top QBs.

I'm not saying Manuel will, but it still feels like too much dirt has been shoveled on Manuel this early in his career.
I agree with this, and this is coming from someone who thought Manuel was a massive reach where Buffalo drafted him.

I think Maronne et al really screwed this guy. They didn't play to his strengths or even, minimally, put him in a position to succeed. I've posted this before, but I didn't understand why they had him throwing so much early in the season while ignoring the run game (even their dysfunctional run game). Manuel is not a gunslinger by any means. He's a semi athletic QB with questionable accuracy who has some mobility. So he shouldn't be throwing 30 times a game necessarily.

I hope he gets a little more time in a more QB friendly scheme.

 
This Raven/Patriot game is a pretty good example of why I like Josh McDaniel. Really creative, mixes stuff up and seems to always make the right adjustments. IMO, he's the best offensive coordinator in the game and has a lot of qualities of a good head coach as well.

 
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I'm just throwing this out there: EJ Manuel's stats through his first 14 games are very similar to Joe Flacco's. Flacco was a guy who really struggled his first several years and many Raven fans wanted him gone. Great defense that was held back by a QB learning the pro game. Guy criticized for having lots of arm strength but not enough accuracy.

And here we are today. The truth is that QB development really can take several years and mediocre/sometimes bad QBs can develop into top QBs.

I'm not saying Manuel will, but it still feels like too much dirt has been shoveled on Manuel this early in his career.
I agree with this, and this is coming from someone who thought Manuel was a massive reach where Buffalo drafted him.

I think Maronne et al really screwed this guy. They didn't play to his strengths or even, minimally, put him in a position to succeed. I've posted this before, but I didn't understand why they had him throwing so much early in the season while ignoring the run game (even their dysfunctional run game). Manuel is not a gunslinger by any means. He's a semi athletic QB with questionable accuracy who has some mobility. So he shouldn't be throwing 30 times a game necessarily.

I hope he gets a little more time in a more QB friendly scheme.
Huh? He only threw the ball 22 and 26 times in the first two games vs. 33 rushing attempts in each game. The next two weeks the ratio changed, but that makes sense because they were losing. They gave him a very conservative game plan with a lot of short passes as well.

 
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This Raven/Patriot game is a pretty good example of why I like Josh McDaniel Gary Kubiak. Really creative, mixes stuff up and seems to always make the right adjustments. IMO, he's the best offensive coordinator in the game and has a lot of qualities of a good head coach as well.
 
I'm just throwing this out there: EJ Manuel's stats through his first 14 games are very similar to Joe Flacco's. Flacco was a guy who really struggled his first several years and many Raven fans wanted him gone. Great defense that was held back by a QB learning the pro game. Guy criticized for having lots of arm strength but not enough accuracy.

And here we are today. The truth is that QB development really can take several years and mediocre/sometimes bad QBs can develop into top QBs.

I'm not saying Manuel will, but it still feels like too much dirt has been shoveled on Manuel this early in his career.
I agree with this, and this is coming from someone who thought Manuel was a massive reach where Buffalo drafted him.I think Maronne et al really screwed this guy. They didn't play to his strengths or even, minimally, put him in a position to succeed. I've posted this before, but I didn't understand why they had him throwing so much early in the season while ignoring the run game (even their dysfunctional run game). Manuel is not a gunslinger by any means. He's a semi athletic QB with questionable accuracy who has some mobility. So he shouldn't be throwing 30 times a game necessarily.

I hope he gets a little more time in a more QB friendly scheme.
Huh? He only threw the ball 22 and 26 times in the first two games vs. 33 rushing attempts in each game. The next two weeks the ratio changed, but that makes sense because they were losing. They gave him a very conservative game plan with a lot of short passes as well.
Ok, I stand corrected. My perception was they threw more than that, selective memory maybe. Without going back and looking at game logs (which I'm not remotely motivated to do) I can't comment on weeks 3 and 4, other than to say it doesn't "necessarily" "make sense" to throw more just because you're losing. There are obviously all kinds of situational variables.I'm curious what the breakdown is over the 4 games.

I know from listening to morning Buffalo radio every morning when Reuben Brown called in to Shred and Ragan, he emphatically believed the Bills were not running enough and putting too much on Manuel's shoulders. And he reiterated this over a few weeks. This paralleled what I thought at the time, and still think.

When you say they had a conservative game plan with a lot of short passes, where are you getting that from? Did you go back and look at game logs? I'm just curious if that is just your perception or if you actually checked, though I don't necessarily doubt you are right.

Regardless, it makes no sense to me that you don't give a 2nd year QB more development before throwing in the towel on him, particularly a QB who was universally regarded as a bit of a project to begin with (which was the point I was responding to). With the Bills defense Manuel should have been just a game manager utilizing a run heavy attack.

I think-and I'm hardly the first to say this as it's been said in the media-that Marrone sacrificed the long term for the short term based on the need to show results with the impending ownership change. And then when it didn't work, he books. Sucks for Bills fans.

 
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I'm just throwing this out there: EJ Manuel's stats through his first 14 games are very similar to Joe Flacco's. Flacco was a guy who really struggled his first several years and many Raven fans wanted him gone. Great defense that was held back by a QB learning the pro game. Guy criticized for having lots of arm strength but not enough accuracy.

And here we are today. The truth is that QB development really can take several years and mediocre/sometimes bad QBs can develop into top QBs.

I'm not saying Manuel will, but it still feels like too much dirt has been shoveled on Manuel this early in his career.
You're completely mis-remembering the Flacco situation. He took over a 5 win team and led them to the playoffs (he and Matt Ryan are the only two rookies in NFL history to start all 16 games and make the playoffs), and became the first rookie QB to win 2 playoff games (both on the road) en route to the AFC Championship game. Fans loved him, as evidenced by his winning the Pepsi Rookie of the Year Award (which is fan voting).

If EJ did any of that, people would be dancing in the streets.

 
I'm just throwing this out there: EJ Manuel's stats through his first 14 games are very similar to Joe Flacco's. Flacco was a guy who really struggled his first several years and many Raven fans wanted him gone. Great defense that was held back by a QB learning the pro game. Guy criticized for having lots of arm strength but not enough accuracy.

And here we are today. The truth is that QB development really can take several years and mediocre/sometimes bad QBs can develop into top QBs.

I'm not saying Manuel will, but it still feels like too much dirt has been shoveled on Manuel this early in his career.
I agree with this, and this is coming from someone who thought Manuel was a massive reach where Buffalo drafted him.I think Maronne et al really screwed this guy. They didn't play to his strengths or even, minimally, put him in a position to succeed. I've posted this before, but I didn't understand why they had him throwing so much early in the season while ignoring the run game (even their dysfunctional run game). Manuel is not a gunslinger by any means. He's a semi athletic QB with questionable accuracy who has some mobility. So he shouldn't be throwing 30 times a game necessarily.

I hope he gets a little more time in a more QB friendly scheme.
Huh? He only threw the ball 22 and 26 times in the first two games vs. 33 rushing attempts in each game. The next two weeks the ratio changed, but that makes sense because they were losing. They gave him a very conservative game plan with a lot of short passes as well.
Ok, I stand corrected. My perception was they threw more than that, selective memory maybe. Without going back and looking at game logs (which I'm not remotely motivated to do) I can't comment on weeks 3 and 4, other than to say it doesn't "necessarily" "make sense" to throw more just because you're losing. There are obviously all kinds of situational variables.I'm curious what the breakdown is over the 4 games.

I know from listening to morning Buffalo radio every morning when Reuben Brown called in to Shred and Ragan, he emphatically believed the Bills were not running enough and putting too much on Manuel's shoulders. And he reiterated this over a few weeks. This paralleled what I thought at the time, and still think.

When you say they had a conservative game plan with a lot of short passes, where are you getting that from? Did you go back and look at game logs? I'm just curious if that is just your perception or if you actually checked, though I don't necessarily doubt you are right.

Regardless, it makes no sense to me that you don't give a 2nd year QB more development before throwing in the towel on him, particularly a QB who was universally regarded as a bit of a project to begin with (which was the point I was responding to). With the Bills defense Manuel should have been just a game manager utilizing a run heavy attack.

I think-and I'm hardly the first to say this as it's been said in the media-that Marrone sacrificed the long term for the short term based on the need to show results with the impending ownership change. And then when it didn't work, he books. Sucks for Bills fans.
Of course it makes sense to throw more in games you are losing (and run more when you are winning), you're trying to catch up. There's a pretty high correlation.

I'm getting the conservative game plan from watching them play, but the numbers also clearly bear that out- 40th in the league last year in air yards per attempt, and he was a half yard per attempt behind the 2nd lowest. Through his 4 starts this year, he led the NFL in attempts, completions, and yards thrown to RBs. You couldn't get more conservative than what they had.

I don't think it was a sacrifice the future deal- EJ is still on the team and may actually still be their future. It was more about winning this year, and they were only a break here or there away from the playoffs. I don't even know who made the decision to switch QB's anymore, but I think it was a no-brainer. Kyle Orton is not very good, but he gave the team a better chance to win.

 
I'm just throwing this out there: EJ Manuel's stats through his first 14 games are very similar to Joe Flacco's. Flacco was a guy who really struggled his first several years and many Raven fans wanted him gone. Great defense that was held back by a QB learning the pro game. Guy criticized for having lots of arm strength but not enough accuracy.

And here we are today. The truth is that QB development really can take several years and mediocre/sometimes bad QBs can develop into top QBs.

I'm not saying Manuel will, but it still feels like too much dirt has been shoveled on Manuel this early in his career.
You're completely mis-remembering the Flacco situation. He took over a 5 win team and led them to the playoffs (he and Matt Ryan are the only two rookies in NFL history to start all 16 games and make the playoffs), and became the first rookie QB to win 2 playoff games (both on the road) en route to the AFC Championship game. Fans loved him, as evidenced by his winning the Pepsi Rookie of the Year Award (which is fan voting). If EJ did any of that, people would be dancing in the streets.
You're insane if you think Flacco "lead them" anywhere. That was 100% Ray Lewis and the defense.

And Ravens fans have yelled to dump Flacco a ton. Before his amazing Super Bowl run, fans were pleading with the team to move on.

 
I'm just throwing this out there: EJ Manuel's stats through his first 14 games are very similar to Joe Flacco's. Flacco was a guy who really struggled his first several years and many Raven fans wanted him gone. Great defense that was held back by a QB learning the pro game. Guy criticized for having lots of arm strength but not enough accuracy.

And here we are today. The truth is that QB development really can take several years and mediocre/sometimes bad QBs can develop into top QBs.

I'm not saying Manuel will, but it still feels like too much dirt has been shoveled on Manuel this early in his career.
You're completely mis-remembering the Flacco situation. He took over a 5 win team and led them to the playoffs (he and Matt Ryan are the only two rookies in NFL history to start all 16 games and make the playoffs), and became the first rookie QB to win 2 playoff games (both on the road) en route to the AFC Championship game. Fans loved him, as evidenced by his winning the Pepsi Rookie of the Year Award (which is fan voting). If EJ did any of that, people would be dancing in the streets.
You're insane if you think Flacco "lead them" anywhere. That was 100% Ray Lewis and the defense.

And Ravens fans have yelled to dump Flacco a ton. Before his amazing Super Bowl run, fans were pleading with the team to move on.
:lmao:

 
Jerry Hughes asking for 7-8 annually and 12-15 guaranteed. What do you guys think? Worth it?
Is that based on this article, or have you seen something where he's said that himself? This just seems like speculation from the writer.
That is the article I got the information from. I figured it was the writers speculation too. That's partly why I asked the original question. I should've used quotes.
 
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Before his super bowl I remember a lot of people questioning Flacco. It wasn't like anyone calling for his head but there were questions.

To the original point, I don't think the EJ to Flacco comparison is very good. I can kind of see the using a Flacco as a general example of QB progression but I think with EJ at this point their career paths leading into year 3 are too far apart for comparison.

Does anyone know what EJ does for offseason training? Is he working with other NFL QBs? Or alone with a QB coach?

 
Is this good for the Bills? Maybe for the D? What happens for Schwartz now?
The defense was already playing at an elite level, so no positive impact there.
Except we know Rex is not going to shift emphasis away from the D. And sounds like the will be keeping Schwartz which is pretty awesome.
How is the team going to get better though?
 
I like the hiring of Rex Ryan for Buffalo. Marrone has some 'issues' handling people from the reports that came out and although Rex has a public reputation of being a loose cannon he is a strong leader who should pull that team together. Also he did coach the Jets to playoff wins with a rookie QB.

If he keeps Schwartz and hires a good OC then that team is dangerous and look who Ian Rappaport says Rex is going after for his OC.

----------------------------

Ian RapoportVerified account ‏@RapSheet 23h23 hours ago

When Rex Ryan is asked who his offensive coordinator will be as HC, 1 of his strongest pitches includes Marc Trestman. They want to pair up.

---------------------------

Trestman would be a good hire.

I'm just not sold on E.J. so I hope they sign a vet QB who fits the system that Trestman or whoever they sign as OC brings in.

 
Jerry Hughes asking for 7-8 annually and 12-15 guaranteed. What do you guys think? Worth it?
Is that based on this article, or have you seen something where he's said that himself? This just seems like speculation from the writer.
That is the article I got the information from. I figured it was the writers speculation too. That's partly why I asked the original question. I should've used quotes.
Thanks for getting my hopes up! ;) I'd be shocked if that's all he signed for (never mind asked for).

 
Borden said:
Before his super bowl I remember a lot of people questioning Flacco. It wasn't like anyone calling for his head but there were questions.

To the original point, I don't think the EJ to Flacco comparison is very good. I can kind of see the using a Flacco as a general example of QB progression but I think with EJ at this point their career paths leading into year 3 are too far apart for comparison.

Does anyone know what EJ does for offseason training? Is he working with other NFL QBs? Or alone with a QB coach?
Of course there were questions, there are questions with almost all QBs- some Pats fans were questioning Brady in the beginning of the season. However, those questions were more about whether Flacco would be elite or just average- it's completely false to say that fans were clamoring for the Ravens to move on from him (again, the fan base as a whole, not a few nuts here and there). The questions around EJ revolve around whether he'll even be in the league in a few years.

It's beyond absurd to try and compare the early careers of Flacco and EJ.

 
Love it. Especially with him keeping Schwartz. Add Greg Roman and things are looking good IMO.

He was the best HC candidate available and the Bills reeled him in.

 
Love it. Especially with him keeping Schwartz. Add Greg Roman and things are looking good IMO.

He was the best HC candidate available and the Bills reeled him in.
enjoy your circus

although if he gets trestman that would be a good start but I dont have any clue why any team would want that clown running your show

 
The bright side of this for Bills fans if those NE/Buffalo games should be lots of fun now. If nothing else, Ryan almost always got the Jets "up" to play the Patriots, and I am sure it will be no different with the Bills.

 
I actually like this move. I wouldn't want Rex Ryan too many places but with that defense it's a perfect marriage.

Buffalo should be about defense and running the ball.

 
I like it. The Bills demonstrated that they're putting one foot in front of the other with a solid coaching hire, and with both feet on the ground, they're ready to get a foot ahead of the rest of the division.

 
Love it. Especially with him keeping Schwartz. Add Greg Roman and things are looking good IMO.

He was the best HC candidate available and the Bills reeled him in.
enjoy your circusalthough if he gets trestman that would be a good start but I dont have any clue why any team would want that clown running your show
The circus was NYC. Rex will be fine in relatively quiet Buffalo. Players love playing for this guy

 
You also have to love the irony of this.

Marrone opts out of Buffalo and immediately interviews with the Jets, who reportedly desperately wanted him as their new HC so bad some talked about investigating tampering charges.

Marrone bombs the interview. Turns out to be an a-class #####. And then the Bills hire the Jets former HC.

:lmao:

 
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Love it. Especially with him keeping Schwartz. Add Greg Roman and things are looking good IMO.

He was the best HC candidate available and the Bills reeled him in.
enjoy your circusalthough if he gets trestman that would be a good start but I dont have any clue why any team would want that clown running your show
Because he gets the most out of his players? Because he is a genius at creating a media circus that centers on him and protects his players? Because he is an innovator that is willing to make any changes he needs to make to win? Because he has had tremendous success against the Patriots? Because he's actually mellowed out some over the last 2 years?

 
Love it. Especially with him keeping Schwartz. Add Greg Roman and things are looking good IMO.

He was the best HC candidate available and the Bills reeled him in.
enjoy your circusalthough if he gets trestman that would be a good start but I dont have any clue why any team would want that clown running your show
The circus was NYC. Rex will be fine in relatively quiet Buffalo. Players love playing for this guy
My bet is the predominately blue collar Buffalo fans will embrace the lunchpail tough-D Rex like they haven't done to a coach since Marv left.

If he wins, all the more.

 
If you read this article on Flacco from 2012 and insert Manuel's name instead, I think it's a perfect comparison. Anyone that can't at least admit that that could accurately describe Manuel is simply a Manuel hater.

http://thesidelineview.com/columns/nfl/managing-games-hurts-flacco
Ok I read it - and you think Manuel is Flacco?
I think what he's saying is Manuel hasn't gotten a fair shake, time-wise, reps-wise, and considering some similar young QBs turned out ok, he deserves another year at least.

 
I like the Ryan hire. Buf has an outstanding D but he will elevate it to SB quality.

The Buf job had to be one of the least desirable out there. No QB and no 1st round pick. I'm sure Ryan looked at the defensive talent and drooled, though.

 
Love it. Especially with him keeping Schwartz. Add Greg Roman and things are looking good IMO.

He was the best HC candidate available and the Bills reeled him in.
enjoy your circusalthough if he gets trestman that would be a good start but I dont have any clue why any team would want that clown running your show
Because he gets the most out of his players? Because he is a genius at creating a media circus that centers on him and protects his players? Because he is an innovator that is willing to make any changes he needs to make to win? Because he has had tremendous success against the Patriots? Because he's actually mellowed out some over the last 2 years?
Exactly. But the true test will be if he gets his tattoo touched up to a blue #3 jersey.

 
You also have to love the irony of this.

Marrone opts out of Buffalo and immediately interviews with the Jets, who reportedly desperately wanted him as their new HC so bad some talked about investigating tampering charges.

Marrone bombs the interview. Turns out to be an a-class #####. And then the Bills hire the Jets former HC.

:lmao:
On the other hand, I think Rex wins over people, including owners. Woody stood by him because he liked him, I bet his interview was a big success.

 
The Buf job had to be one of the least desirable out there.
People keep saying this, and I get where it comes from. This team has been kind of a joke for the past decade or so, which is why we've been stuck with the Chan Gaileys and Doug Marrones of the world.

Things are different now though. We have stable ownership, and our owners are apparently willing to spend what it takes to attract top-shelf personnel. Yeah, the quarterback situation is a mess. But you're not inheriting a barren cupboard like in New York, and you're not stuck with an un-cuttable coach-killer like in Chicago. Atlanta is the only HC opening that I think is clearly more attractive than ours, because of Matt Ryan.

 
The Buf job had to be one of the least desirable out there.
People keep saying this, and I get where it comes from. This team has been kind of a joke for the past decade or so, which is why we've been stuck with the Chan Gaileys and Doug Marrones of the world.

Things are different now though. We have stable ownership, and our owners are apparently willing to spend what it takes to attract top-shelf personnel. Yeah, the quarterback situation is a mess. But you're not inheriting a barren cupboard like in New York, and you're not stuck with an un-cuttable coach-killer like in Chicago. Atlanta is the only HC opening that I think is clearly more attractive than ours, because of Matt Ryan.
So what are the thoughts on Whaley?

 
I'm penciling in the BUF DST on my early 2015 draft list.
For defensive player leagues, I'd bump up Kiko too. Schwartz rarely blitzes his LBs, but Rex is really good at sending surprise & effective LB blitzes, and Kiko has the kind of speed and instincts to rack up 8-12 sacks.

 
The Buf job had to be one of the least desirable out there.
People keep saying this, and I get where it comes from. This team has been kind of a joke for the past decade or so, which is why we've been stuck with the Chan Gaileys and Doug Marrones of the world.

Things are different now though. We have stable ownership, and our owners are apparently willing to spend what it takes to attract top-shelf personnel. Yeah, the quarterback situation is a mess. But you're not inheriting a barren cupboard like in New York, and you're not stuck with an un-cuttable coach-killer like in Chicago. Atlanta is the only HC opening that I think is clearly more attractive than ours, because of Matt Ryan.
And Rex turned them down for Buffalo.

 

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