2021 Buffalo Bills - Same as it ever was*** (2 Viewers)

[OC Zed]

They got more than I expected for Stevie, but still not what he's worth.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

They got more than I expected for Stevie, but still not what he's worth.

Agreed and agreed. Overall, fairly happy. They would have got nothing if they kept him around for next year. And, who knows if he'll be able to stay healthy, stable, etc...

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I heard some rumors that Stevie and EJ didn't get along very well. Not sure how things were with him and the coaches either. I liked him and hope he does well in San Francisco, but maybe there were some issues behind the scenes that will be improved with him gone now. Who knows.

 

[Borden]

They got more than I expected for Stevie, but still not what he's worth.

Agreed and agreed. Overall, fairly happy. They would have got nothing if they kept him around for next year. And, who knows if he'll be able to stay healthy, stable, etc...

Why would they have not gotten anything for him next year?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I really like Watkins, and I'm very happy to have him on our team. But this is just the latest saga in us failing to retain perfectly capable players, creating holes for ourselves that we then have to go back and re-fill. We did that with RBs for a while, such as when we traded away Lynch and drafted Spiller. (I think McGahee may have been the guy pushed aside for Lynch, but my memory isn't so good on the details of that one -- you get the idea).

Not the Stevie was a world-beater or anything, and if there were locker room issues that we don't know about that changes things too. The fact that this team just bleeds away talent gets on my nerves though.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Mike Williams is a pretty good player.

If you ignore the Watkins move and just look at the Stevie Johnson/Mike Williams moves, it looks a little better, no?

Mike Williams added for a 6th round pick.

Stevie Johnson traded for a 4th/potential 3rd.



Obviously Mike has off-field concerns that make him a risky pickup. Might blow up in their face, but also might turn out they upgraded a bit.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Not the Stevie was a world-beater or anything, and if there were locker room issues that we don't know about that changes things too. The fact that this team just bleeds away talent gets on my nerves though.

it's bugged me for a decade or so now.

Antoine Winfield, Pat Williams, Nate Clements, Peerless Price, Jason Peters, Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, Donte Whitner, Paul Posluszny, Andy Levitre, Jairus Byrd, Steve Johnson, etc.

Lots of very good players have come through and were lost for little or nothing to show for it. Impossible to build a contender with that type of turnover. Even if you draft and develop players well, you don't get to reap the benefits when the players hit the prime of their careers.

EDIT: added Whitner and Price

 

[humpback]

What happened to "we have to win now"?

 

[GroveDiesel]

I heard some rumors that Stevie and EJ didn't get along very well. Not sure how things were with him and the coaches either. I liked him and hope he does well in San Francisco, but maybe there were some issues behind the scenes that will be improved with him gone now. Who knows.

Saw several Buffalo media guys over the last couple of days say that Marrone and Stevie did not get along at all

 

[Borden]

Mike Williams is a pretty good player.

If you ignore the Watkins move and just look at the Stevie Johnson/Mike Williams moves, it looks a little better, no?

Mike Williams added for a 6th round pick.

Stevie Johnson traded for a 4th/potential 3rd.



Obviously Mike has off-field concerns that make him a risky pickup. Might blow up in their face, but also might turn out they upgraded a bit.

That's a good point. Williams is probably much more likely to contribute than a 6th rounder but he is much more expensive.

When you think about the value on return for Stevie it's pretty good too. 7th rounder that produces a few 1000 yard seasons for you then trade him for a 4th rounder.

 

[Borden]

Not the Stevie was a world-beater or anything, and if there were locker room issues that we don't know about that changes things too. The fact that this team just bleeds away talent gets on my nerves though.

it's bugged me for a decade or so now.

Antoine Winfield, Pat Williams, Nate Clements, Jason Peters, Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, Paul Posluszny, Andy Levitre, Jairus Byrd, Steve Johnson, etc.

Lots of very good players have come through and were lost for little or nothing to show for it. Impossible to build a contender with that type of turnover. Even if you draft and develop players well, you don't get to reap the benefits when the players hit the prime of their careers.

Whitner

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

They got more than I expected for Stevie, but still not what he's worth.

Agreed and agreed. Overall, fairly happy. They would have got nothing if they kept him around for next year. And, who knows if he'll be able to stay healthy, stable, etc...

Why would they have not gotten anything for him next year?

Assuming similar production to last year, he'd be a year older, a couple million dollars more expensive, and down to one year on the contract, right? That would be much less valuable than where he is now.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

Not the Stevie was a world-beater or anything, and if there were locker room issues that we don't know about that changes things too. The fact that this team just bleeds away talent gets on my nerves though.

it's bugged me for a decade or so now.

Antoine Winfield, Pat Williams, Nate Clements, Jason Peters, Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, Paul Posluszny, Andy Levitre, Jairus Byrd, Steve Johnson, etc.

Lots of very good players have come through and were lost for little or nothing to show for it. Impossible to build a contender with that type of turnover. Even if you draft and develop players well, you don't get to reap the benefits when the players hit the prime of their careers.

Whitner

Jim Leonhard

(I like this game.)

 

[Borden]

Not the Stevie was a world-beater or anything, and if there were locker room issues that we don't know about that changes things too. The fact that this team just bleeds away talent gets on my nerves though.

it's bugged me for a decade or so now.

Antoine Winfield, Pat Williams, Nate Clements, Jason Peters, Willis McGahee, Marshawn Lynch, Paul Posluszny, Andy Levitre, Jairus Byrd, Steve Johnson, etc.

Lots of very good players have come through and were lost for little or nothing to show for it. Impossible to build a contender with that type of turnover. Even if you draft and develop players well, you don't get to reap the benefits when the players hit the prime of their careers.

Whitner

Jim Leonhard

(I like this game.)

Andy Levitre

 

[GroveDiesel]

Seriously though, how many times did Stevie blow easy game winners. I bet at least 6 or 7 times. For all he did, $8M a year is a little hard to swallow with his shortcomings.

I'm not a huge fan of Mike Williams, but the skillsets are pretty similar.

 

[Archer]

I think the Bills were very smart trading up to get Watkins. Manuel needs talented skilled playmakers to show that he's either a true franchise QB or he's not. And I think people forget he actually had a few very nice moments in the preseason last year before he got hurt. And he really utilized the check down and screen pass, something that Watkins can turn into BIG plays.

 

[flysack]

I heard some rumors that Stevie and EJ didn't get along very well. Not sure how things were with him and the coaches either. I liked him and hope he does well in San Francisco, but maybe there were some issues behind the scenes that will be improved with him gone now. Who knows.

This. Even though all parties seemed to be very professional about it.

This also clears a lot of cap space as Stevie's contract ballooned next season.

I just wish we could have had one season of Watkins/Johnson/Woods for EJ in his make-or-break year.

 

[flysack]

I think the Bills were very smart trading up to get Watkins. Manuel needs talented skilled playmakers to show that he's either a true franchise QB or he's not. And I think people forget he actually had a few very nice moments in the preseason last year before he got hurt. And he really utilized the check down and screen pass, something that Watkins can turn into BIG plays.

He had a few nice moments in the regular season before he got hurt in the Cleveland game. I was at the Carolina game when he drove the Bills down the field in the last seconds for the win. He was patient in that drive, poised, and took what the defense gave him until he launched the game-winning TD.

I'm not saying he's a franchise QB. The jury is still out because of all his injuries last year. But he's shown enough for the coaches and GM to gamble on, IMO.

 

[werdnoynek]

I heard some rumors that Stevie and EJ didn't get along very well. Not sure how things were with him and the coaches either. I liked him and hope he does well in San Francisco, but maybe there were some issues behind the scenes that will be improved with him gone now. Who knows.

This. Even though all parties seemed to be very professional about it.

This also clears a lot of cap space as Stevie's contract ballooned next season.

I just wish we could have had one season of Watkins/Johnson/Woods for EJ in his make-or-break year.

Do you think Watkins/Woods with a new and maybe rejuvenated Mike Williams could do just as good if not better? Seems like Stevie has really dropped off the past couple of seasons... obviously for injuries, but he just didn't seem like the same guy even when healthy.

 

[flysack]

I heard some rumors that Stevie and EJ didn't get along very well. Not sure how things were with him and the coaches either. I liked him and hope he does well in San Francisco, but maybe there were some issues behind the scenes that will be improved with him gone now. Who knows.

This. Even though all parties seemed to be very professional about it.

This also clears a lot of cap space as Stevie's contract ballooned next season.

I just wish we could have had one season of Watkins/Johnson/Woods for EJ in his make-or-break year.

Do you think Watkins/Woods with a new and maybe rejuvenated Mike Williams could do just as good if not better? Seems like Stevie has really dropped off the past couple of seasons... obviously for injuries, but he just didn't seem like the same guy even when healthy.

I think that's the plan. We'll see. Mike Williams has also dropped off recently.

I guess I just liked Stevie. I get why they traded him, and yes, he killed me with the game-breaking drops. But...

 

[Borden]

I heard some rumors that Stevie and EJ didn't get along very well. Not sure how things were with him and the coaches either. I liked him and hope he does well in San Francisco, but maybe there were some issues behind the scenes that will be improved with him gone now. Who knows.

This. Even though all parties seemed to be very professional about it.

This also clears a lot of cap space as Stevie's contract ballooned next season.

I just wish we could have had one season of Watkins/Johnson/Woods for EJ in his make-or-break year.

Whose make-or-break year is it?

 

[flysack]

I heard some rumors that Stevie and EJ didn't get along very well. Not sure how things were with him and the coaches either. I liked him and hope he does well in San Francisco, but maybe there were some issues behind the scenes that will be improved with him gone now. Who knows.

This. Even though all parties seemed to be very professional about it.

This also clears a lot of cap space as Stevie's contract ballooned next season.

I just wish we could have had one season of Watkins/Johnson/Woods for EJ in his make-or-break year.

Whose make-or-break year is it?

Is this a question about sentence structure or content?

Ok. I'll answer both.

1. EJ's

2. EJ's. If he looks like crap or gets injured a ton this year, the Bills will certainly be forced to look to free agency for a QB (again).

 

[Borden]

I heard some rumors that Stevie and EJ didn't get along very well. Not sure how things were with him and the coaches either. I liked him and hope he does well in San Francisco, but maybe there were some issues behind the scenes that will be improved with him gone now. Who knows.

This. Even though all parties seemed to be very professional about it.

This also clears a lot of cap space as Stevie's contract ballooned next season.

I just wish we could have had one season of Watkins/Johnson/Woods for EJ in his make-or-break year.

Whose make-or-break year is it?

Is this a question about sentence structure or content?

Ok. I'll answer both.

1. EJ's

2. EJ's. If he looks like crap or gets injured a ton this year, the Bills will certainly be forced to look to free agency for a QB (again).

I just didn't think you were talking about EJ. I thought maybe you were talking about Johnson. It's a little soon to call it a make or break season don't you think? Even Gabbert got 3.

 

[flysack]

I heard some rumors that Stevie and EJ didn't get along very well. Not sure how things were with him and the coaches either. I liked him and hope he does well in San Francisco, but maybe there were some issues behind the scenes that will be improved with him gone now. Who knows.

This. Even though all parties seemed to be very professional about it.

This also clears a lot of cap space as Stevie's contract ballooned next season.

I just wish we could have had one season of Watkins/Johnson/Woods for EJ in his make-or-break year.

Whose make-or-break year is it?

Is this a question about sentence structure or content?

Ok. I'll answer both.

1. EJ's

2. EJ's. If he looks like crap or gets injured a ton this year, the Bills will certainly be forced to look to free agency for a QB (again).

I just didn't think you were talking about EJ. I thought maybe you were talking about Johnson. It's a little soon to call it a make or break season don't you think? Even Gabbert got 3.

And everyone knew he was garbage by the second year.

 

[msommer]

I heard some rumors that Stevie and EJ didn't get along very well. Not sure how things were with him and the coaches either. I liked him and hope he does well in San Francisco, but maybe there were some issues behind the scenes that will be improved with him gone now. Who knows.

This. Even though all parties seemed to be very professional about it.

This also clears a lot of cap space as Stevie's contract ballooned next season.

I just wish we could have had one season of Watkins/Johnson/Woods for EJ in his make-or-break year.

Whose make-or-break year is it?

Is this a question about sentence structure or content?

Ok. I'll answer both.

1. EJ's

2. EJ's. If he looks like crap or gets injured a ton this year, the Bills will certainly be forced to look to free agency for a QB (again).

I just didn't think you were talking about EJ. I thought maybe you were talking about Johnson. It's a little soon to call it a make or break season don't you think? Even Gabbert got 3.

Gabbert got at least one too many

ETA too late dammit

 

[flysack]

Bills make a trade with the Rams?

 

[Borden]

I like Kouandjio. He doesn't look every happy though.

 

[GroveDiesel]

I like Kouandjio. He doesn't look every happy though.

I like him a lot. He's a huge mauler. Knees were an issue for some teams but Whaley said their team docs don't see them as a career limiter. He needs to be motivated for entire games, but can be a dominant player. Will definitely be a day 1 starter at RT.

 

[flysack]

I like Kouandjio. He doesn't look every happy though.

I like him a lot. He's a huge mauler. Knees were an issue for some teams but Whaley said their team docs don't see them as a career limiter. He needs to be motivated for entire games, but can be a dominant player. Will definitely be a day 1 starter at RT.

Huge upgrade from Pears, that's for sure. Liking the draft so far.

 

[flysack]

Bills make a trade with the Rams?

Anyone know about this? Cnnsi says they traded picks with the Rams, moving down. What they get?

 

[GroveDiesel]

Bills make a trade with the Rams?

Anyone know about this? Cnnsi says they traded picks with the Rams, moving down. What they get?

Rams 5th this year.

 

[flysack]

Bills make a trade with the Rams?

Anyone know about this? Cnnsi says they traded picks with the Rams, moving down. What they get?

Rams 5th this year.

Solid move, and they still got their OT.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

Bills make a trade with the Rams?

Anyone know about this? Cnnsi says they traded picks with the Rams, moving down. What they get?

Rams 5th this year.

Solid move, and they still got their OT.

Yup. Nice slide move by the Bills.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Bills take ILB Preston Brown in round 3. Sounds a lot like Brandon Spikes from his scouting report. 2-down run thumper.

 

[OC Zed]

Bills take ILB Preston Brown in round 3. Sounds a lot like Brandon Spikes from his scouting report. 2-down run thumper.

Sounds like Brandon is projected to be one and done in Western NY and the season hasn't even started yet.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

Anyone have any thoughts on taking a QB with one of the next couple picks? AJ McCarron really intrigues me. Mettenberger has some upside. I've heard some positive things about Savage, though I've never really studied him.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Anyone have any thoughts on taking a QB with one of the next couple picks? AJ McCarron really intrigues me. Mettenberger has some upside. I've heard some positive things about Savage, though I've never really studied him.

I think it's a smart move given the injury isses EJ had last year. Thad Lewis is nice and all, but it wouldn't hurt to have a 3rd option who might develop into a potential starter or very good backup down the road.

 

[OC Zed]

Anyone have any thoughts on taking a QB with one of the next couple picks? AJ McCarron really intrigues me. Mettenberger has some upside. I've heard some positive things about Savage, though I've never really studied him.

I think it's a smart move given the injury isses EJ had last year. Thad Lewis is nice and all, but it wouldn't hurt to have a 3rd option who might develop into a potential starter or very good backup down the road.

Taking a QB doesn't make any sense to me. This team is all-in with EJ right now and shouldn't veer from that path after one season. Furthermore, Lewis looked very competent throughout the season when called upon. Heck, Tuel even played well with a full week of preparation.

And we still need to address rebuilding depth in the secondary and also maybe getting a guard that can actually get in the field and contribute next year.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

You can find those positions on the street. The importance of QB makes it different IMO. Throw numbers at the position and you'll probably find a diamond sooner than if you keep following the current strategy.

Adding competition for Manuel is not a bad move, especially for a late round pick. If he can't handle it, he's probably not the guy anyway.

 

[GroveDiesel]

You can find those positions on the street. The importance of QB makes it different IMO. Throw numbers at the position and you'll probably find a diamond sooner than if you keep following the current strategy.

Adding competition for Manuel is not a bad move, especially for a late round pick. If he can't handle it, he's probably not the guy anyway.

I agree. I doubt it happens, but I'd like to see McCarron in the 4th today. That's a cheap enough price that you can have him compete but pretend that he's nothing more than a backup. I like that he had a 68% completion percentage for a good program in a tough division. I also think he can read a defense. Those are two qualities I'll take over the big arm. But I do think his arm is at least adequate.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

You can find those positions on the street. The importance of QB makes it different IMO. Throw numbers at the position and you'll probably find a diamond sooner than if you keep following the current strategy.

Adding competition for Manuel is not a bad move, especially for a late round pick. If he can't handle it, he's probably not the guy anyway.

I agree. I doubt it happens, but I'd like to see McCarron in the 4th today. That's a cheap enough price that you can have him compete but pretend that he's nothing more than a backup. I like that he had a 68% completion percentage for a good program in a tough division. I also think he can read a defense. Those are two qualities I'll take over the big arm. But I do think his arm is at least adequate.

That's my thought, too. I think AJ has a bit of an "it" factor. So why not take a shot and let him be the #3 for a year with the hopes he might just turn into a gem.

Also, he could be trade bait if he does shine a tiny bit in preseason or fill in duty. Take a page from the NE playbook...

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

Random thought... Too bad this Josh Gordon news didn't break a day sooner. Throwing Stevie into the 1.4 trade might have been able to save next year's #1.

 

[OC Zed]

You can find those positions on the street. The importance of QB makes it different IMO. Throw numbers at the position and you'll probably find a diamond sooner than if you keep following the current strategy.

Adding competition for Manuel is not a bad move, especially for a late round pick. If he can't handle it, he's probably not the guy anyway.

We've spent the last 15 years trying to find guards, DBs, etc off the street and have yield awful results.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Random thought... Too bad this Josh Gordon news didn't break a day sooner. Throwing Stevie into the 1.4 trade might have been able to save next year's #1.

If this news had broken a day sooner, Sammy Watkins would be a Brown.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

You can find those positions on the street. The importance of QB makes it different IMO. Throw numbers at the position and you'll probably find a diamond sooner than if you keep following the current strategy.

Adding competition for Manuel is not a bad move, especially for a late round pick. If he can't handle it, he's probably not the guy anyway.

We've spent the last 15 years trying to find guards, DBs, etc off the street and have yield awful results.

sure, DBs is a position you typically need to invest in and the Bills have done that. Do you think they need more DBs over a QB?

As for OL, my sense is there are a lot of starters at the position around the league that went undrafted. Or you can just pick up other team's scraps like the Bills did with Legursky, Urbik, Rinehart, etc. Wasn't the line pretty good under Gailey with mostly players that were undrafted by the Bills? I think a lot of it is coaching and scheme, as much as raw talent.

Undrafted Jason Peters also worked out a lot better than #4 overall pick Mike Williams.

so your position is you want to roll with Manuel, Thad, and Tuel and don't bring in any new competition no matter the cost? They spent late round picks on two safeties last year and a kicker. Why not take a lottery ticket QB at some point?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Random thought... Too bad this Josh Gordon news didn't break a day sooner. Throwing Stevie into the 1.4 trade might have been able to save next year's #1.

If this news had broken a day sooner, Sammy Watkins would be a Brown.

Browns said they knew for a couple weeks though.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Random thought... Too bad this Josh Gordon news didn't break a day sooner. Throwing Stevie into the 1.4 trade might have been able to save next year's #1.

If this news had broken a day sooner, Sammy Watkins would be a Brown.

Browns said they knew for a couple weeks though.

I've seen conflicting stuff on this. Allegedly the top brass knew but are theoretically prohibited from telling the coaches. Not sure how this process works. If the people making the picks didn't know about the Gordon suspension until yesterday, then I feel a little bad for Cleveland. If they knew and just blew it off, that's kind of funny.

Either way, we should all be happy that for once the stars happened to align and we were able to take advantage of a team that's even more cursed and/or incompetent than we are.

 

[humpback]

Random thought... Too bad this Josh Gordon news didn't break a day sooner. Throwing Stevie into the 1.4 trade might have been able to save next year's #1.

If this news had broken a day sooner, Sammy Watkins would be a Brown.

Browns said they knew for a couple weeks though.

I've seen conflicting stuff on this. Allegedly the top brass knew but are theoretically prohibited from telling the coaches. Not sure how this process works. If the people making the picks didn't know about the Gordon suspension until yesterday, then I feel a little bad for Cleveland. If they knew and just blew it off, that's kind of funny.

Either way, we should all be happy that for once the stars happened to align and we were able to take advantage of a team that's even more cursed and/or incompetent than we are.

Yeah, the whole thing seems crazy- I'm not sure why there would be a rule where only certain people in the organization could "know" the information in the first place, and I really don't see how they could "prove" that they told the coaches- it's not like Watkins would have been an unthinkable pick for Cleveland even if nothing came out about Gordon. I have to think they knew and decided to pass on him anyhow (maybe they know more than we think and he's facing less than a season suspension)- they passed on WR in the 2nd and 3rd after it was public as well.

Disagree with your last sentence- how did the Bills take advantage of the Browns?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Random thought... Too bad this Josh Gordon news didn't break a day sooner. Throwing Stevie into the 1.4 trade might have been able to save next year's #1.

If this news had broken a day sooner, Sammy Watkins would be a Brown.

Browns said they knew for a couple weeks though.

I've seen conflicting stuff on this. Allegedly the top brass knew but are theoretically prohibited from telling the coaches. Not sure how this process works. If the people making the picks didn't know about the Gordon suspension until yesterday, then I feel a little bad for Cleveland. If they knew and just blew it off, that's kind of funny.

Either way, we should all be happy that for once the stars happened to align and we were able to take advantage of a team that's even more cursed and/or incompetent than we are.

Yeah, the whole thing seems crazy- I'm not sure why there would be a rule where only certain people in the organization could "know" the information in the first place, and I really don't see how they could "prove" that they told the coaches- it's not like Watkins would have been an unthinkable pick for Cleveland even if nothing came out about Gordon. I have to think they knew and decided to pass on him anyhow (maybe they know more than we think and he's facing less than a season suspension)- they passed on WR in the 2nd and 3rd after it was public as well.

Disagree with your last sentence- still seems like the Bills are the one who got taken advantage of.

Fair enough -- we gave a lot to move up. But realistically it's weird that we were able to land the player our FO apparently really wanted. If Cleveland wasn't snakebitten, there's no way Watkins is wearing a Bills uniform today.

 

[humpback]

Anyone have any thoughts on taking a QB with one of the next couple picks? AJ McCarron really intrigues me. Mettenberger has some upside. I've heard some positive things about Savage, though I've never really studied him.

I think it's a smart move given the injury isses EJ had last year. Thad Lewis is nice and all, but it wouldn't hurt to have a 3rd option who might develop into a potential starter or very good backup down the road.

Taking a QB doesn't make any sense to me. This team is all-in with EJ right now and shouldn't veer from that path after one season. Furthermore, Lewis looked very competent throughout the season when called upon. Heck, Tuel even played well with a full week of preparation.

And we still need to address rebuilding depth in the secondary and also maybe getting a guard that can actually get in the field and contribute next year.

I said this during last years draft as well, but QB is THE most important position on the field. The Bills have accumulated a decent amount of talent, but EJ is still a huge question mark at this point. Using a 4th round pick on someone who can either push him to be better, or who may end up being better himself, makes perfect sense (assuming there's a guy there who fits the bill).