30 years of probowl level QB play (1 Viewer)

[Godsbrother]

What about the Steelers of the 80s & 90s?

Stoudt

Malone

Brister

O'Donnell

Tomczak

Stewart

 

[CalBear]

What about the Steelers of the 80s & 90s?StoudtMaloneBristerO'DonnellTomczakStewart

There's a different thread for the worst QB play.

 

[az_prof]

What about the Steelers of the 80s & 90s?StoudtMaloneBristerO'DonnellTomczakStewart

Tomczak and Stewart were not bad. Not great, but not bad.

 

[Adebisi]

Actually, I don't think it could be. Warner was as good as any QB when he was right, but he had some injuries, and his play fell off. He was only putting up numbers for a short time. In fact, now that I look at it, only two monster seasons, and one other one where he missed 5 games.

And yet you still get people who are convinced that he's a surefire Hall of Famer. I just don't get it.

He is. #2 in yards/game, #2 in completion percentage, #8 in yards/pass attempt, #7 in passer rating, three Super Bowl appearances and one win, with two different passing-dominated offenses. Plus two great comeback stories. The Hall of Fame eats that stuff up.

How many Hall of Fame caliber seasons would you say that he's had?

 

[Adebisi]

What about the Steelers of the 80s & 90s?StoudtMaloneBristerO'DonnellTomczakStewart

Tomczak and Stewart were not bad. Not great, but not bad.

Really? As a Patriots fan, I used to love that they had Stewart at QB.

 

[David Yudkin]

Actually, I don't think it could be. Warner was as good as any QB when he was right, but he had some injuries, and his play fell off. He was only putting up numbers for a short time. In fact, now that I look at it, only two monster seasons, and one other one where he missed 5 games.

And yet you still get people who are convinced that he's a surefire Hall of Famer. I just don't get it.

He is. #2 in yards/game, #2 in completion percentage, #8 in yards/pass attempt, #7 in passer rating, three Super Bowl appearances and one win, with two different passing-dominated offenses. Plus two great comeback stories. The Hall of Fame eats that stuff up.

How many Hall of Fame caliber seasons would you say that he's had?

He had 6 seasons with an approximate value of 10 or more. That's not all that many. Kerry Collins has had 6. Drew Bledsoe had 9. But Warner is a great story and is a Disney or made for tv movie in the making.

 

[dgreen]

Actually, I don't think it could be. Warner was as good as any QB when he was right, but he had some injuries, and his play fell off. He was only putting up numbers for a short time. In fact, now that I look at it, only two monster seasons, and one other one where he missed 5 games.

And yet you still get people who are convinced that he's a surefire Hall of Famer. I just don't get it.

He is. #2 in yards/game, #2 in completion percentage, #8 in yards/pass attempt, #7 in passer rating, three Super Bowl appearances and one win, with two different passing-dominated offenses. Plus two great comeback stories. The Hall of Fame eats that stuff up.

How many Hall of Fame caliber seasons would you say that he's had?

His resume is definitely different than most HOF QBs. But, that doesn't make him undeserving.In addition to the above stats, he has 2 league MVPs and 1 SB MVP.

 

[CalBear]

Actually, I don't think it could be. Warner was as good as any QB when he was right, but he had some injuries, and his play fell off. He was only putting up numbers for a short time. In fact, now that I look at it, only two monster seasons, and one other one where he missed 5 games.

And yet you still get people who are convinced that he's a surefire Hall of Famer. I just don't get it.

He is. #2 in yards/game, #2 in completion percentage, #8 in yards/pass attempt, #7 in passer rating, three Super Bowl appearances and one win, with two different passing-dominated offenses. Plus two great comeback stories. The Hall of Fame eats that stuff up.

How many Hall of Fame caliber seasons would you say that he's had?

What does that mean? If you're talking about "seasons as good as other HOF QBs", almost all of them. It took Dan Fouts seven years to throw for 3000 yards for the first time. In John Elway's first 10 seasons, he never passed for more than 58.6% completions (and averaged just 55%). Jim Kelly only had 11 seasons, only threw for more than 25 TDs once, and had seven seasons under 60% passing. Warren Moon had six seasons with less than 3000 yards passing. Warner had three seasons which are better than the best season of any of the guys listed above, and had 11 games in a fourth season that would have been better, also.

 

[jameson1]

Favre had a bunch of not great years during his time in GB. Not sure you can say he was at a pro bowl level for 17 years there.

How many is a bunch?

Probably half of them, to be honest. Of his 17 seasons in Green Bay, he had a passer rating under 90 in 8 of them. For sake of comparison, there were 13 starting quarterbacks with passer ratings over 90 in 2011, including such first-ballot Hall of Famers as David Garrard, Matt Cassel and Joe Flaccn the flip side, Favre's passer rating for a season never cracked 100 in 17 years in Green Bay. Four quarterbacks did this in 2011 alone.

Favre also never rushed for more than 40 yards in a season- a secondary benefit provided by many quarterbacks to varying degrees every season.

He may be the most overrated athlete in American sports history.

Only 11 QBs with more than 1500 career attempts have a career QB rating of greater than 90. 8 of those 11 are active today (Kurt Warner would have been #9). As ive said in other threads, comparing passer ratings from even the 90's to those of today is ridiculous and incomparable, and even if you do the ol' Gunslinger is still #17 of all-time at 86.1 of all-time (right behind Carson Palmer at #15 @86.7, lol @ qb rating inflation)But to also put that into perspective, Troy Aikman's career QB rating was 82.7, Dan Marino 85.7, Jim Kelly 83.2.

To your point about "cracking 100", he did break 100 (107 actually) in 2009, and he came in at 99.5 in 1995, which to me is far more impressive than the 107 in 2009. I should also point out that only 1 QB has a career average over 100, none other than Aaron Rodgers at 100.3. Next closest are Steve Young and Pihiilip Rivers at 95.7. its all about the west coast offense really and its inflationary effect upon QB ratings.

Im no vikings or Green Bay fan, but you can't deny the guy has put up incredible numbers over an unprecedented period of time and attempts.

I don't deny that. His longevity has resulted in incredible career numbers. And he's had a very fine career as a QB. Nothing even in the same universe as what many have made out to be, but a fine career. But I'm still not sure how anything you wrote shows he was a pro-bowl level QB in more than half his seasons in Green Bay. If anything, I overrated him there.

I'm not contending that Favre was a Pro Bowl caliber QB more than half his seasons. I'm also not saying he wasn't, either. I haven't looked at his stats or known the full context of every game for every season in order to make that statement. What i can say, is that the voters at the time each year voted him to the probowl, so I will assume that they had some form and context for those votes beyond what you and I have here in 2011 (i know, people loved him, biased voting, blah blah blah, it can't be quantified)So from my perspective, the established FACTs at hand here is that Brett Favre made the probowl 11 times in 20 years. If you want to prove that he was undeserving of some of those probowls (which he may have been, again, I'm not trying to argue if he did or didn't), you must provide some strong data or evidence to support your claim. In your above post, you tried to provide said data. Unfortunately for you and your hypothesis, the whole theory of falsifiability allows me to sit on my little perch here and nitpick your data, and by proving it falsifiable, I have invalidated the factual contexts of your arguments to date.

So i'll put the above statement into English: the only data you used to prove your hypothesis has been proven wrong (contextually). That doesn't mean your hypothesis itself is wrong, but in the absence of confirmed and supporting data the hypothesis cannot be verified. You need to look elsewhere to try to validate your hypothesis

In effect, I found your black swan. (Kudos to anyone who knows what I'm talking about without googling it.) (Edit: and no, not the f*cking movie, lol)

 

[CrossEyed]

What about the Steelers of the 80s & 90s?StoudtMaloneBristerO'DonnellTomczakStewart

Tomczak and Stewart were not bad. Not great, but not bad.

I seem to recall O'Donnell having a really good year in '95 until he threw those passes right to Larry Brown. I still think he was paid off to throw that game.

 

[Godsbrother]

What about the Steelers of the 80s & 90s?StoudtMaloneBristerO'DonnellTomczakStewart

Tomczak and Stewart were not bad. Not great, but not bad.

I seem to recall O'Donnell having a really good year in '95 until he threw those passes right to Larry Brown. I still think he was paid off to throw that game.

O'Donnell wasn't awful but rarely threw deep -- he prefered the short, "safe" throws. The ironic thing about Super Bowl XXX was that O'Donnell normally protected the ball extremely well and had a really good completion/interception ratio. Hmmm, maybe he was paid off!

 

[ninerfanatic492000]

What about the Steelers of the 80s & 90s?StoudtMaloneBristerO'DonnellTomczakStewart

Tomczak and Stewart were not bad. Not great, but not bad.

I seem to recall O'Donnell having a really good year in '95 until he threw those passes right to Larry Brown. I still think he was paid off to throw that game.

O'Donnell wasn't awful but rarely threw deep -- he prefered the short, "safe" throws. The ironic thing about Super Bowl XXX was that O'Donnell normally protected the ball extremely well and had a really good completion/interception ratio. Hmmm, maybe he was paid off!

the raiders as a backhanded slap to the steelers gave Larry Brown's signing bonus to O'Donnell for a job well donei kid, i give Neil alot of credit for getting that team to the super bowl...........one of the least talented offenses to make the super bowl in recent memory. Bam Morris/Eric Pegram and Yancey Thipen highlighted the skill players

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

I didn't look up every team, but here were three teams that came to mind that had solid QB play over the years and how many Pro Bowl selections they had at QB:49ers (Since 1950) - 24Frankie Albert 1Y.A. Tittle 4John Brodie 2Joe Montana 7Steve Young 7Jeff Garcia 3Colts (Since 1953) - 24Johnny Unitas 10Earl Morrall 1Bert Jones 1Jim Harbaugh 1Peyton Manning 11Cowboys (Since 1960) - 20Eddie LeBaron 1Don Meredith 3Roger Staubach 6Danny White 1Troy Aikman 6Tony Romo 3

Frankly I'm a little surprised you omitted the Lions here...

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

What about the Steelers of the 80s & 90s?StoudtMaloneBristerO'DonnellTomczakStewart

There's a different thread for the worst QB play.

Oooh I must be in the wrong room. Though in deference at least 3 of those guys played in superbowls in Pitt, no?

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

The question was how often in those 17 seasons he was actually playing at a "pro bowl" level. I said maybe half of them. Your statement could be interpreted as, essentially, definitely in 5 seasons, borderline in four other seasons. If anything, that's a stronger anti-Favre conclusion than mine.

No it isn't.

yes it is.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Original question: "has any other team in the history of the league been able to have 3 decades of that level of QB play for their team for that long?"

Ok, include some of Favre's not-quite-great-nor-pro-bowl-level years.

Who matches that (or perhaps come close)?

Aside from those already mentioned (like the 60s-90s Cowboys)...

Denver 1977-2010: Morton, DeBerg, Elway, Griese Jr., Plummer, Cutler, Orton

The Real Colts 1956-1977: Unitas, Morrall, and Bert Jones (with a couple years from some guy named Domres squeezed in).

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Dolphins, 1967-1999: Griese Sr. and Marino. Yes you do have 3 years of LSU grad David Woodley in there but you know what he was good enough to get them to the Super Bowl one of those years. {Of course QB karma is a you know what}

San Diego Chargers, 1960-1987: Hadl, Fouts and 1 year each of Tobin Rote and James Harris, very nice string.

Browns, 1976-1991: Sipe & Kosar with just 1 year of Paul McDonald in the middle.

Browns, 1946-1967: Otto Graham, Frank Ryan, Milt Plum, and just 2 years in the middle with some guy named Tommy O'Connell.

64-85 Redskins: Sonny Jurgenson, Billy Kilmer, & Joe Theisman

Bengals, 72-92: Kenny Anderson & Boomer Esiason

Bills, 73-99: Joe Ferguson, Jim Kelly, and Doug Flutie (with a Todd Collins and Vince Ferragamo thrown in between).

On the flip side, consider the Bears who went WITHOUT a decent QB after the Luckman/Lujack/Blanda years from 1954 through 2009, with the exception of a couple good years from Jim McMahon.

 

[Ookie Pringle]

The question was how often in those 17 seasons he was actually playing at a "pro bowl" level. I said maybe half of them. Your statement could be interpreted as, essentially, definitely in 5 seasons, borderline in four other seasons. If anything, that's a stronger anti-Favre conclusion than mine.

No it isn't.

yes it is.

The fact you think that way further justifies it doesn't. Trying to nitpick some of Favre's seasons to justify he didn't have a pro bowl level of play during his time with the Packers is absurd. For the point of what the OP was trying to make here you look at the body of work over that time. As was pointed out, many of the great QBs made the Pro Bowl approx. 50% of their years playing. As you can see in the thread for bad QBs for teams the Packers were fortunate to have Favre for those years and they are fortunate to move on to Rodgers who has the potential to play at pro bowl levels overall for his career.

 

[cr8f]

It is a huge assumption, but how many top 5 QB's over the past 20 years have left the game in the 20's because of injury? Can't think of many. Sure teams change starting QB's alot, but its usually over money or poor play. A healthy Rodgers is in GB for a long time.Steve Young probably had a couple decent years left if her didnt get his skull bounced off the turf a few to many times, but i can't think of any marquee guys careers ending short do to a major injury.

Speaking of Young, how long did the Montana, Young, Garcia span last in San Fran?

'81-'03.Dallas' string went from '63-'00.

In 63 they weren't pro bowl talent level so you have to move that back a little, but they did have a long run.

 

[az_prof]

Actually, I don't think it could be. Warner was as good as any QB when he was right, but he had some injuries, and his play fell off. He was only putting up numbers for a short time. In fact, now that I look at it, only two monster seasons, and one other one where he missed 5 games.

And yet you still get people who are convinced that he's a surefire Hall of Famer. I just don't get it.

He is. #2 in yards/game, #2 in completion percentage, #8 in yards/pass attempt, #7 in passer rating, three Super Bowl appearances and one win, with two different passing-dominated offenses. Plus two great comeback stories. The Hall of Fame eats that stuff up.

How many Hall of Fame caliber seasons would you say that he's had?

His resume is definitely different than most HOF QBs. But, that doesn't make him undeserving.In addition to the above stats, he has 2 league MVPs and 1 SB MVP.

I haven't looked that carefully at Warner's statistical record, but based on what I saw over the years watching him I don't think he is a surefire HOF player. Look at the players he had around him: Faulk, Holt and Bruce in STL and Fitz and Boldin in AZ. He is a very good player but IMO the case for him being HOF needs to be made yet.

 

[CrossEyed]

What about the Steelers of the 80s & 90s?StoudtMaloneBristerO'DonnellTomczakStewart

There's a different thread for the worst QB play.

Oooh I must be in the wrong room. Though in deference at least 3 of those guys played in superbowls in Pitt, no?

Pretty sure only O'Donnell would be on that list.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Look at Warner's postseason numbers. They are nothing short of ridiculous.

Then look at how both the Rams and Cardinals franchises did before he got there and after he left. Those are not coincidences.

Factor in the story, his three MVP awards and one of the greatest throws/plays in Super Bowl history, and Warner is absolutely a lock for the Hall.

 

[by_the_sea_wannabe]

Would be interesting to look at all positions on this.

I was waiting for a Steelers fan to come in here and bring up linebackers.

Actually I was thinking center going from Webster to Dawson but now that you mention it ....

 

[CrossEyed]

Would be interesting to look at all positions on this.

I was waiting for a Steelers fan to come in here and bring up linebackers.

Actually I was thinking center going from Webster to Dawson but now that you mention it ....

A lot of people forget about Ray Mansfield, but he was pretty good too. Steelers only had 3 centers from 1964 to 2000. That's pretty amazing.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Would be interesting to look at all positions on this.

I was waiting for a Steelers fan to come in here and bring up linebackers.

Actually I was thinking center going from Webster to Dawson but now that you mention it ....

A lot of people forget about Ray Mansfield, but he was pretty good too. Steelers only had 3 centers from 1964 to 2000. That's pretty amazing.

:(

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Look at Warner's postseason numbers. They are nothing short of ridiculous.Then look at how both the Rams and Cardinals franchises did before he got there and after he left. Those are not coincidences. Factor in the story, his three MVP awards and one of the greatest throws/plays in Super Bowl history, and Warner is absolutely a lock for the Hall.

Who thinks he isn't?

 

[Tau837]

Look at Warner's postseason numbers. They are nothing short of ridiculous.Then look at how both the Rams and Cardinals franchises did before he got there and after he left. Those are not coincidences. Factor in the story, his three MVP awards and one of the greatest throws/plays in Super Bowl history, and Warner is absolutely a lock for the Hall.