8 out of 10 teams tied! (1 Viewer)

[Hot Sauce Guy]

There is a very real possibility that 8 out of our 10 teams in one of my leagues will be tied at 7-6 heading into the playoffs creating a nightmare for the commish. In my 30+ years of playing this game I have never ever seen this.

Crazy! 2020 now affecting the magic football too!

Hopefully you have clear tiebreakers in the league constitution, but from the OP I'm guessing you don't? 

In the league I commission, we have 2 formats for tiebreakers, 1 within the division & the other outside the division. 

In the division: Record, then H2H, then Points For, then Points Against (SOS)

Across divisions: Record, then Points for, then Points against. 

the idea of using points against is that it shows who had the tougher schedule (in theory). Fortunately we've never had a tie on both record, H2H and points for so points against has never come into the equation. 

Assuming the tiebreakers are in place, there shouldn't be any nightmare for the commish. The only nightmare I've ever had was when we used H2H across divisions with an imbalanced schedule. It was impossible to figure out who beat who. If team A beat team C, but Team B beat team D, and team D beat team A, but team B played team B twice and team C & D only played team A once and.....yeesh. 

 

[PantherThunder]

Doesn’t the NFL go H2H with first tie breaker? 

Yep 30 years ago I started in FF. The idea was to mirror the NFL as best as possible. For scoring we only counted TD's and FG's

 

[ratbast]

But they don't have a chance of having the week they are on bye be used as the tie breaker head to head game. 

They also don’t have the luxury of backing up Kyler Murray with Matt Ryan. 

 

[Gally]

They also don’t have the luxury of backing up Kyler Murray with Matt Ryan. 

Neither do a lot of fantasy teams

 

[ratbast]

Neither do a lot of fantasy teams

Oh come on. You get my point. Your team should be built to win on bye weeks of your stars. You want it to be points then what about injuries? You have a couple of down weeks and you’re out of tie breakers even though with Chubb back you’ve fought to make the playoffs. And your competition had that one week where everyone went off. 

 

[Gally]

Oh come on. You get my point. Your team should be built to win on bye weeks of your stars. You want it to be points then what about injuries? You have a couple of down weeks and you’re out of tie breakers even though with Chubb back you’ve fought to make the playoffs. And your competition had that one week where everyone went off. 

Not necessarily.  Putting all my bye players in one week and punting that so I am strong for the other weeks is also a way to go.  Then having that one week be the one that matters for a tie break is terrible (and you have no way of knowing on draft day that will be the week used for a tie break).  

Injuries happen for everyone and isn't a forced disadvantage like a bye week.  Using the one time you happen to play a team with a forced disadvantage as a tie break is very unfair.  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Yep 30 years ago I started in FF. The idea was to mirror the NFL as best as possible. For scoring we only counted TD's and FG's

You kept score with chisels and stone tablets. Tiebreakers were decided with grunting & bloodsport using wooden clubs, while the rest of the league hunted bison and wooly mammoths. Fire had not yet been invented, so you ate the mammoth meat raw, like real men.  

 

[iamkoza]

This is why total points is the only thing that matters. H2H is complete nonsense. 

the entire hobby is based on h2h w-l records and winning against someone every week. i dont get the hate for when h2h is the #1 tiebreaker. do people play in a pure seasonal total points league?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

the entire hobby is based on h2h w-l records and winning against someone every week. i dont get the hate for when h2h is the #1 tiebreaker. do people play in a pure seasonal total points league?

IMO it all depends on whether you play a balanced or imbalanced schedule.  W-L is the #1 tiebreaker in either format though, not H2H, so you're kind of misstating this. The #2 tiebreaker depends on league format & schedule design. 

In leagues where playoffs are week 15 & LCG week 16, H2H should only matter within the division.  Across divisions it's a cluster trying to figure out who beat who and how to weight those wins, so points for just makes sense. 

Then entire hobby is based on W-L, not H2H. I respectfully disagree with your premise here. 

 

[Bossman]

There is a very real possibility that 8 out of our 10 teams in one of my leagues will be tied at 7-6 heading into the playoffs creating a nightmare for the commish. In my 30+ years of playing this game I have never ever seen this.

Crazy! 2020 now affecting the magic football too!

Should be a fun playoff run.

Probably would have made sense to tell us what the tie-breaker scenarios are in this league.

Not really a nightmare if your using "points scored" ... or "all play record" as tie-breaker #1

 

[ratbast]

Not necessarily.  Putting all my bye players in one week and punting that so I am strong for the other weeks is also a way to go.  Then having that one week be the one that matters for a tie break is terrible (and you have no way of knowing on draft day that will be the week used for a tie break).  

Injuries happen for everyone and isn't a forced disadvantage like a bye week.  Using the one time you happen to play a team with a forced disadvantage as a tie break is very unfair.  

In your scenario, “tanked” a week and it’s come back to bite. Cry me a River, the only issue is the strategy decision and coincidence. 

 

[Gally]

In your scenario, “tanked” a week and it’s come back to bite. Cry me a River, the only issue is the strategy decision and coincidence. 

.......and the inherent flaw of using H2H as a tie breaker punishing teams with players on bye in one off matchups

 

[ratbast]

.......and the inherent flaw of using H2H as a tie breaker punishing teams with players on bye in one off matchups

I disagree. Using the “all bye week one week” is the flaw. Not winning enough is the flaw. 

 

[Nemesis]

As a commissioner, you want rules that are obvious to all and they don't have to read 5 pages and then try to apply them......I've just seen too many arguments when using H2H as a tie breaker as owners argue over HOW TO APPLY them and that can kill leagues sometimes.

with that said, I'm surprised nobody to this point has mentioned "JUST PLAY DOUBLEHEADERS EACH WEEK".......you still get the H2H atmosphere and competition but you add so many more data points that can be used to separate the the playoff teams from the pretenders.   Also, it also gives the owner who scores the 2nd highest each week BUT played against the #1 scorer that week a little comfort knowing that they still got a W that week.

So my leagues are Doubleheaders, and we use W-L record, followed by Pts Scored.

 

[Nemesis]

@Mr.Pack Original post was on Monday..........did we ever get an update as to how it turned out in your league?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I disagree. Using the “all bye week one week” is the flaw. Not winning enough is the flaw. 

Fundamentally it's difficult to argue with that point. lol 

 

[ratbast]

I will add that H2H as a tie breaker gets tricky with more than one team tied. I do understand why some don’t like it. I understand why some use total points. 

 

[Yenrub]

I will add that H2H as a tie breaker gets tricky with more than one team tied. I do understand why some don’t like it. I understand why some use total points. 

It's not tricky at all. 

3 or more teams tie breaker:
1.head to head sweep (applicable only if one team has defeated each of the others or if a team has loss to all the others)
2.most points for the season
3.coin toss

Note: Only one team advances to the playoffs in any tie-breaking step. remaining tied teams revert to the first step of the applicable tie-breaker

 

[Gally]

I disagree. Using the “all bye week one week” is the flaw. Not winning enough is the flaw. 

It doesn't have to be all bye week one week.  Just using a game where people have any key players on bye is terrible.  The flaw is that you are using something that puts a team at a random disadvantage for a tie break.  

 

[ratbast]

It doesn't have to be all bye week one week.  Just using a game where people have any key players on bye is terrible.  The flaw is that you are using something that puts a team at a random disadvantage for a tie break.  

I don’t think your point is valid but you do so whatever. 

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

The advantage of h2h is it keeps inferior teams in the playoff hunt, which means more league interest as more teams have a chance to make the playoffs late in the season, even if they're not the best teams.

(This is not intended as an insult. I've been that team many times). 

But once the records are finished, the next way to break the tie should be total points. If the records look the same, and you have to dig a little deeper to find out who should make it in, total points seems like the most logical way to reward a team with a playoff spot.

Tie-breakers vary across leagues and can be weird. One of my leagues uses bench points to break weekly ties (no decimal scoring). So, quite often, the team that did the worst job of choosing who to start ends up being rewarded with a win. 

 

[Gally]

The advantage of h2h is it keeps inferior teams in the playoff hunt, which means more league interest as more teams have a chance to make the playoffs late in the season, even if they're not the best teams.
 

Are you saying H2H as a tie breaker or H2H as a structure?  I assume in this context you are referring to playing a head to head schedule for records.  So unlike a roto league where someone is out of it in three weeks because of three bad weeks and can never catch up .  You aren't referring to the tie break aspect as "keeping inferior teams in the playoff hunt".  

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Are you saying H2H as a tie breaker or H2H as a structure?  I assume in this context you are referring to playing a head to head schedule for records.  So unlike a roto league where someone is out of it in three weeks because of three bad weeks and can never catch up .  You aren't referring to the tie break aspect as "keeping inferior teams in the playoff hunt".  

Yes, correct. That's why I said "once the records are finished" total points is superior to figure out which of the tied teams at the end of the season moves on. I was trying to explain why someone could see an advantage to h2h during the season, but feel that total points is the better move for a tie-breaker.

 

[kevinray]

H2H is a fine tie breaker. It definitely doesn't ensure that the best teams make the playoffs but that's true of any league where you play games against each other and track wins and losses. It can create some more trash talk or anxiety for specific games but it doesn't always work that way. The most fair tie breaker is always total points, then a menagerie of H2H, division record, ect.. If H2H is your first tie breaker your rules need to be clear that it's only used in cases where two teams are tied. If three or more team are tied you should always use total points as the first tie breaker to avoid arguments and confusion.

 

[voiceofunreason]

I have a league where we count H2H for one victory point a week but you also get another for beating the spread. 4 teams make the playoffs on victory points, the last two are the highest remaining total points. Really helps to weed out the pretenders

Beating the spread? That's the worst idea I've heard yet.

 

[Mr.Pack]

@Mr.Pack Original post was on Monday..........did we ever get an update as to how it turned out in your league?

7 teams ended up tied. One complete Division (5 Teams) and the top 2 teams in the other Div. The hardest part was trying to figure out who should be the #1 Seed. Division Champs was easy. I helped the Commish and figured it obviously had to come from either of the two Division champs so once we made that determination it fell into place.

Crazy freaking year

 

[PantherThunder]

You kept score with chisels and stone tablets. Tiebreakers were decided with grunting & bloodsport using wooden clubs, while the rest of the league hunted bison and wooly mammoths. Fire had not yet been invented, so you ate the mammoth meat raw, like real men.  

Yes no sites that had FF info, heck there weren't even FF mags that came out months before the draft. USA today came out on Tuesday and we had to wait for the commish to do all the stats by hand. No smart phones. HTH TDs and FG's, just  like the NFL was all that mattered. No pushing edges for the season for points. HTH, 10 teams because you had to talk the 10 guy into it the night before. 

Nowadays anyone can print out draft list the night before and be competitive in a points battle. HTH you have to back up you high draft picks. Flex is for people that can't draft. Points battles are for people that know they can push edges at the end of the season and get 3rd or 4th. 

Don't get me wrong. My league which was started 20 years ago, we have a cook out on draft day(sunday of labor day weekend) 12 teams (8 still there) was set up at an all play every week. I have never done well in that league,won it twice. The HTH league I have been in for 20 years. I have won 5 times. Back in wooly mammoth days nothing was online, but things progress. 

Mr Hot Sauce Guy - if you ever have an opening in one of your leagues please let me know. I would love to fill your spot. 

 

[PantherThunder]

Not necessarily.  Putting all my bye players in one week and punting that so I am strong for the other weeks is also a way to go.  Then having that one week be the one that matters for a tie break is terrible (and you have no way of knowing on draft day that will be the week used for a tie break).  

Injuries happen for everyone and isn't a forced disadvantage like a bye week.  Using the one time you happen to play a team with a forced disadvantage as a tie break is very unfair.  

Injuries and bye weeks are not a disadvantage. They are part of the game. Which is why HTH actually favors the better players. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Yes no sites that had FF info, heck there weren't even FF mags that came out months before the draft. USA today came out on Tuesday and we had to wait for the commish to do all the stats by hand. No smart phones. HTH TDs and FG's, just  like the NFL was all that mattered. No pushing edges for the season for points. HTH, 10 teams because you had to talk the 10 guy into it the night before. 

Nowadays anyone can print out draft list the night before and be competitive in a points battle. HTH you have to back up you high draft picks. Flex is for people that can't draft. Points battles are for people that know they can push edges at the end of the season and get 3rd or 4th. 

Don't get me wrong. My league which was started 20 years ago, we have a cook out on draft day(sunday of labor day weekend) 12 teams (8 still there) was set up at an all play every week. I have never done well in that league,won it twice. The HTH league I have been in for 20 years. I have won 5 times. Back in wooly mammoth days nothing was online, but things progress. 
 

I too go way way back, but not quite that far with FF. With FBB even longer though - snail mail lineups for the week, USA Today box scores. The dark ages of FBB. Dudes in my Yahoo league texting me over a missing K - c’mon son, back in the day you got what the box score said. Write a letter to the editor if you don’t like how they scored it.  

Mr Hot Sauce Guy - if you ever have an opening in one of your leagues please let me know. I would love to fill your spot. 

Someone would probably have to die, but never say never.  

 

[Gally]

Injuries and bye weeks are not a disadvantage. They are part of the game. Which is why HTH actually favors the better players. 

H2H is preferred for the league format for every week matchups and injuries and bye weeks happen to everyone across a full season.

H2H for the first tie break is unfair as your one and only random matchup against someone may be when one of the teams has key players on bye leading to an unavoidable disadvantage.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Beating the spread? That's the worst idea I've heard yet.

With accurate takes like this you may need to change your handle.  

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

H2H is preferred for the league format for every week matchups and injuries and bye weeks happen to everyone across a full season.

H2H for the first tie break is unfair as your one and only random matchup against someone may be when one of the teams has key players on bye leading to an unavoidable disadvantage.

Across divisions I agree. 

Within the division, if all divisional matchups are played 2x, H2H is a great 1st tiebreaker. 

Across divisions you get too into the weeds with Team A beat team B but team C beat team A but team D beat teams AB & team C beat teams AD but team....

That stuff will make a commish catatonic trying to figure it all out. 

 

[grateful zed]

There is a very real possibility that 8 out of our 10 teams in one of my leagues will be tied at 7-6 heading into the playoffs creating a nightmare for the commish. In my 30+ years of playing this game I have never ever seen this.

Crazy! 2020 now affecting the magic football too!

Tie breakers down?

 

[grateful zed]

What is fun about H2H? 

Not as much as H2Crotch.

 

[Mr.Pack]

Tie breakers down?

No, why would you ask a ridiculous question like this?

 

[PantherThunder]

Across divisions I agree. 

Within the division, if all divisional matchups are played 2x, H2H is a great 1st tiebreaker. 

Across divisions you get too into the weeds with Team A beat team B but team C beat team A but team D beat teams AB & team C beat teams AD but team....

That stuff will make a commish catatonic trying to figure it all out. 

With respect to across divisions tie breakers should be used to get a winner. Basically 2 tie all tie until your tiebreakers produce a clear winner. 

 

[PantherThunder]

H2H for the first tie break is unfair as your one and only random matchup against someone may be when one of the teams has key players on bye leading to an unavoidable disadvantage.

I get it but if you are going to decide the who wins off the most HTH wins, how can you not use HTH as the tiebreaker. 

 

[Babooya]

H2H tiebreaker is fine within division or for wildcard. If it’s more than 2 teams tied it goes to total points, and if H2H is split its total points. 
 

It’s not punishment, wins matter. whether or not you have complaints about bye weeks or injuries. Those are the breaks 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

With respect to across divisions tie breakers should be used to get a winner. Basically 2 tie all tie until your tiebreakers produce a clear winner. 

Which is what makes H2H a nightmare.

points for then points against. Simple, clean, even the slowest member of your league can understand.

No elaborate commish explanation needed. Just “look at the points. Team with the best record & most points for is the wildcard”.

Easy.  Why do anything more complicated than that? 

If some teams play 2x & some 1x, you can’t use H2H. 

 

[ratbast]

Which is what makes H2H a nightmare.

points for then points against. Simple, clean, even the slowest member of your league can understand.

No elaborate commish explanation needed. Just “look at the points. Team with the best record & most points for is the wildcard”.

Easy.  Why do anything more complicated than that? 

If some teams play 2x & some 1x, you can’t use H2H. 

We will move to points if H2H doesn’t determine winner. If 2 teams are tied and one beat them twice, they are the higher seed. If they split its points. If the only played once, it’s obvious. The same goes for 3 teams, if one team swept the other two, they advance. 
Our league used to go straight to points but a team lost twice to another and got higher seed and we didn’t like it. So we use H2H until we can’t. 5 teams tied would probably turn to points from start.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

We will move to points if H2H doesn’t determine winner. If 2 teams are tied and one beat them twice, they are the higher seed. If they split its points. If the only played once, it’s obvious. The same goes for 3 teams, if one team swept the other two, they advance. 
Our league used to go straight to points but a team lost twice to another and got higher seed and we didn’t like it. So we use H2H until we can’t. 5 teams tied would probably turn to points from start.

That’s how we do it within the division. 

We also have a “sweep” rule across divisions where if one team beat the other 2-3-4 they’re tied with, they advance.

that’s only happened once in 12 years since we added the rule. 

 

[ratbast]

That’s how we do it within the division. 

We also have a “sweep” rule across divisions where if one team beat the other 2-3-4 they’re tied with, they advance.

that’s only happened once in 12 years since we added the rule. 

100%

 

[PantherThunder]

Which is what makes H2H a nightmare.

points for then points against. Simple, clean, even the slowest member of your league can understand.

No elaborate commish explanation needed. Just “look at the points. Team with the best record & most points for is the wildcard”.

Easy.  Why do anything more complicated than that? 

If some teams play 2x & some 1x, you can’t use H2H. 

Once the tie breakers are established. If it is in the rules why would there be any need for an explanation? Why is points the holy grail? 

HTH is pretty easy. I beat you, I have the tiebreaker. 

If I beat you but you score more points, how does that not make it more complicated. 

I know who is my division. I factor in which weeks I will be playing the tougher teams. That's higher level thinking, but I never complain about a HTH loss either. 

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Once the tie breakers are established. If it is in the rules why would there be any need for an explanation? Why is points the holy grail? 

HTH is pretty easy. I beat you, I have the tiebreaker. 

If I beat you but you score more points, how does that not make it more complicated. 

I know who is my division. I factor in which weeks I will be playing the tougher teams. That's higher level thinking, but I never complain about a HTH loss either. 

I don’t know what you’re arguing with. I’m a proponent of H2H within the division. 

As for using H2H across divisions, I made it quite clear what would require explanation. Just because it’s clear what that tiebreaker is doesn’t mean it’ll be clear figuring it out when some teams play once and some teams play twice. Then factoring in who beat who with 3-4-5 teams with tied records. That’s why points make the most sense across divisions. 

I’m not sure you’re saying anything different. Your post confuses me. Guess you’re on that “higher level thinking”.