8 year old girl unwelcome at Christian school for being a tomboy (1 Viewer)

[pollardsvision]

http://www.wset.com/story/25061872/little-girl-taken-out-of-christian-school-after-told-shes-too-much-like-a-boy

Letter to her grandparents: http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wset/SKMBT_60114032514080.pdf

School says there were other issues, but won't say what those are.

It's hard to imagine any other reasons being very compelling when the school is willing to give such an insane reason for telling the girl she's not welcome.

I'm assuming they were reaching for anything besides "Our good Christian teachers and students just thought she was odd and couldn't handle it".

 

[Hilts]

No real Christians would have given this girl the boot.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Religion

 

[timschochet]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

 

[pollardsvision]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

It's well within their right. It just makes them ####heads.

 

[Hilts]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

 

[sublimeone]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

 

[Pots]

Seems kind of

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

It's well within their right. It just makes them ####heads.

Not really. If you don't agree with what the school's principles are, then why apply in the first place? I doubt that the information that whatever the child was doing was likely against school code wasn't readily given to the parents, or they weren't warned multiple times prior (which the letter indicated they were). There are plenty of private schools with looser codes they could go to, or go to a public school. We also don't know exactly what behavior she exhibited, the school not being more elaborate could be to protect the child more than there not be any other reason than she looked 'boyish'. I've known plenty of Tomboys growing up, and can't say I was ever confused to whether they were a girl or not.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

They should be free to expel this kid if they want. And we're free to criticize them for it. Which is, of course, what we're doing. (They're idiots).

 

[timschochet]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

Then what is notable about this story? I would think that many private Christian schools would make a habit out of expelling anyone "strange" or not allowing them in the first place. Parents who send their kids to these places are not really looking for diversity or anything that resembles open-minded attitudes.

 

[timschochet]

Anyhow, I have this image in my mind of Pat from SNL attending that school...

 

[sublimeone]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

 

[Pots]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

Then what is notable about this story? I would think that many private Christian schools would make a habit out of expelling anyone "strange" or not allowing them in the first place. Parents who send their kids to these places are not really looking for diversity or anything that resembles open-minded attitudes.

Can't believe I'm agreeing with Tim on this one, but it's pretty clear the point of a school like this is for a place for parents to surround their child with values they feel are important to them and protect them from values they feel might negatively influence them. You might not agree with the classification of those values, but that's why there are other school options.

 

[Hilts]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

Then what is notable about this story? I would think that many private Christian schools would make a habit out of expelling anyone "strange" or not allowing them in the first place. Parents who send their kids to these places are not really looking for diversity or anything that resembles open-minded attitudes.

They made a decision most of us would consider to be incredibly stupid, based on what we know. They're free to make those decisions, just as we're free to mock/ridicule them for their backwater ways.

 

[Hilts]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

I did. I'm sure others have as well.

 

[NCCommish]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

You mean the one where the principal who I am sure has a PhD in psychology, or some other applicable science, has determined she is a girl regardless of her actual gender identity? Making him a backwards #######? Yeah I read it.

 

[bosoxs45]

Was she supporting Brony related products?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

Translation: 'We do good sometimes so just ignore the bad stuff please. k thx.'

Religion

 

[sublimeone]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

You mean the one where the principal who I am sure has a PhD in psychology, or some other applicable science, has determined she is a girl regardless of her actual gender identity? Making him a backwards #######? Yeah I read it.

If an 8 year old female is unsure about her gender identity do you provide any guidance? Therapy? etc... or do you just let her figure it out?

 

[Dr Oadi]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

You mean the one where the principal who I am sure has a PhD in psychology, or some other applicable science, has determined she is a girl regardless of her actual gender identity? Making him a backwards #######? Yeah I read it.

If an 8 year old female is unsure about her gender identity do you provide any guidance? Therapy? etc... or do you just let her figure it out?

liberalism is a mental disorder.

 

[Yenrub]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

I read it

How exactly does an eight year old go about practicing a homosexual lifestyle or alternative gender identity?

 

[shader]

Did any of you actually read the PDF letter?

You mean the one where the principal who I am sure has a PhD in psychology, or some other applicable science, has determined she is a girl regardless of her actual gender identity? Making him a backwards #######? Yeah I read it.

 

[McGarnicle]

Whoa Nelly, that little girl is not easy on the eyes. Good move here by the school.

 

[MaxThreshold]

Whoa Nelly, that little girl is not easy on the eyes. Good move here by the school.

 

[MaxThreshold]

I was wondering who was going to start the daily Christian-bashing thread. Good thing pollardvision is on the case!

 

[Scoresman]

this sort of thing is ok because religions are such charitable organizations.

 

[Chaka]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

Would those things not happen or exist in the absence of religion?

Are there any non-religious groups that have provided the same benefits/resources?

 

[StrikeS2k]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

Then what is notable about this story? I would think that many private Christian schools would make a habit out of expelling anyone "strange" or not allowing them in the first place. Parents who send their kids to these places are not really looking for diversity or anything that resembles open-minded attitudes.

Dunno Tim. What is notable about the Westboro Baptist church that we should have thread(s) on it? As far as I know they've never been accused of doing anything illegal. They just practice speech at funerals. Why should we even discuss it? Right?

 

[squistion]

Who would Jesus expel?

 

[Scoresman]

Who would Jesus expel?

certainly not mary magdalene, the prostitute he took as a wife

 

[MaxThreshold]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

Would those things not happen or exist in the absence of religion?

Are there any non-religious groups that have provided the same benefits/resources?

I think you're completely missing (or evading) the point here.

 

[timschochet]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

Not a fan of Cliff's anti-religious crusade, but I should point out that Hamas has food drives, homeless shelters, and orphanages. But they're still an evil insane terrorist organization.

 

[sublimeone]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

Would those things not happen or exist in the absence of religion?

Are there any non-religious groups that have provided the same benefits/resources?

Of course. Are any of the people in those secular institutions ########?

 

[timschochet]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

Then what is notable about this story? I would think that many private Christian schools would make a habit out of expelling anyone "strange" or not allowing them in the first place. Parents who send their kids to these places are not really looking for diversity or anything that resembles open-minded attitudes.

Dunno Tim. What is notable about the Westboro Baptist church that we should have thread(s) on it? As far as I know they've never been accused of doing anything illegal. They just practice speech at funerals. Why should we even discuss it? Right?

What Westboro does is extremely unusual. I doubt this story is unusual at all.

 

[Hilts]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

Then what is notable about this story? I would think that many private Christian schools would make a habit out of expelling anyone "strange" or not allowing them in the first place. Parents who send their kids to these places are not really looking for diversity or anything that resembles open-minded attitudes.

Dunno Tim. What is notable about the Westboro Baptist church that we should have thread(s) on it? As far as I know they've never been accused of doing anything illegal. They just practice speech at funerals. Why should we even discuss it? Right?

What Westboro does is extremely unusual. I doubt this story is unusual at all.

If this story isn't unusual (which I doubt), perhaps that should change. And perhaps calling attention to more of these stories would slowly help lead that change.

 

[sublimeone]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

Not a fan of Cliff's anti-religious crusade, but I should point out that Hamas has food drives, homeless shelters, and orphanages. But they're still an evil insane terrorist organization.

So maybe we shouldn't just lump "religion" into one big pile?

 

[Ignoramus]

Whoa Nelly, that little girl is not easy on the eyes. Good move here by the school.

I only want hot eight-year-olds in my school.

 

[StrikeS2k]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

Then what is notable about this story? I would think that many private Christian schools would make a habit out of expelling anyone "strange" or not allowing them in the first place. Parents who send their kids to these places are not really looking for diversity or anything that resembles open-minded attitudes.

Dunno Tim. What is notable about the Westboro Baptist church that we should have thread(s) on it? As far as I know they've never been accused of doing anything illegal. They just practice speech at funerals. Why should we even discuss it? Right?

What Westboro does is extremely unusual. I doubt this story is unusual at all.

Lots of people/groups protest in public places. All the time. What they're doing isn't "unusual" at all. It's simply disgusting and cold hearted. And that's why it's discussed.

 

[squistion]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

Then what is notable about this story? I would think that many private Christian schools would make a habit out of expelling anyone "strange" or not allowing them in the first place. Parents who send their kids to these places are not really looking for diversity or anything that resembles open-minded attitudes.

What is notable is that it shows that times are changing as to the public attitude regarding a private religious school for expelling a student who is perceived as "practicing a homosexual lifestyle or alternative gender identity." Ten to fifteen years ago this wouldn't have made the news anywhere, now it does (even though most everyone agrees that the school was completely within its rights to expel the student).

 

[Scoresman]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

Then what is notable about this story? I would think that many private Christian schools would make a habit out of expelling anyone "strange" or not allowing them in the first place. Parents who send their kids to these places are not really looking for diversity or anything that resembles open-minded attitudes.

Dunno Tim. What is notable about the Westboro Baptist church that we should have thread(s) on it? As far as I know they've never been accused of doing anything illegal. They just practice speech at funerals. Why should we even discuss it? Right?

What Westboro does is extremely unusual. I doubt this story is unusual at all.

Lots of people/groups protest in public places. All the time. What they're doing isn't "unusual" at all. It's simply disgusting and cold hearted. And that's why it's discussed.

don't talk bad about the Westboro church. they are part of the Christian family of religions and they do a lot of charity.

 

[StrikeS2k]

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

I'm not sure anyone is arguing they shouldn't be allowed to expel the girl, or anyone else they choose.

Then what is notable about this story? I would think that many private Christian schools would make a habit out of expelling anyone "strange" or not allowing them in the first place. Parents who send their kids to these places are not really looking for diversity or anything that resembles open-minded attitudes.

Dunno Tim. What is notable about the Westboro Baptist church that we should have thread(s) on it? As far as I know they've never been accused of doing anything illegal. They just practice speech at funerals. Why should we even discuss it? Right?

What Westboro does is extremely unusual. I doubt this story is unusual at all.

Lots of people/groups protest in public places. All the time. What they're doing isn't "unusual" at all. It's simply disgusting and cold hearted. And that's why it's discussed.

don't talk bad about the Westboro church. they are part of the Christian family of religions and they do a lot of charity.

I'm sure Tim is fine with them ex communicating their founder, and father. Cause, you know, they're a private organization and can do whatever they want.

 

[shader]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

Not a fan of Cliff's anti-religious crusade, but I should point out that Hamas has food drives, homeless shelters, and orphanages. But they're still an evil insane terrorist organization.

So maybe we shouldn't just lump "religion" into one big pile?

I think the point is that religions shouldn't brag about having food drives and homeless shelters as if this is proof of their excellence. Man has a basic tendency to take care of those of their own that are in sore straits while at the same time slaughtering those that they disagree with. The US, including most religious people in the US, is no exception. (with any of the wars fought in the 20th-21st century as proof of the previous statement.)

 

[pollardsvision]

Seems kind of

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

It's well within their right. It just makes them ####heads.

Not really. If you don't agree with what the school's principles are, then why apply in the first place? I doubt that the information that whatever the child was doing was likely against school code wasn't readily given to the parents, or they weren't warned multiple times prior (which the letter indicated they were). There are plenty of private schools with looser codes they could go to, or go to a public school. We also don't know exactly what behavior she exhibited, the school not being more elaborate could be to protect the child more than there not be any other reason than she looked 'boyish'. I've known plenty of Tomboys growing up, and can't say I was ever confused to whether they were a girl or not.

I can't imagine the grandparents of this 8 year old girl thought that short hair, pants, and general plainness would violate this school's principle of "not condoning or supporting sexual immorality, practicing homosexual lifestyle, or alternative gender identity" as the school's letter put it.

Maybe it is on them for not understanding that.

We don't know what behavior she exhibited and maybe there's more to the story, but I really don't understand why the school wouldn't mention those other things. If she had real behavioral problems or other specific issues, I'd think those would be what they'd mention. Hell, a specific school policy would've even been nice.

But they didn't mention any. We can only go by what they mentioned. Those reasons mentioned are insane, mean-spirited, and incredibly vague.

 

[Scoresman]

Seems kind of

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

It's well within their right. It just makes them ####heads.

Not really. If you don't agree with what the school's principles are, then why apply in the first place? I doubt that the information that whatever the child was doing was likely against school code wasn't readily given to the parents, or they weren't warned multiple times prior (which the letter indicated they were). There are plenty of private schools with looser codes they could go to, or go to a public school. We also don't know exactly what behavior she exhibited, the school not being more elaborate could be to protect the child more than there not be any other reason than she looked 'boyish'. I've known plenty of Tomboys growing up, and can't say I was ever confused to whether they were a girl or not.

I can't imagine the grandparents of this 8 year old girl thought that short hair, pants, and general plainness would violate this school's principle of "not condoning or supporting sexual immorality, practicing homosexual lifestyle, or alternative gender identity" as the school's letter put it.

Maybe it is on them for not understanding that.

We don't know what behavior she exhibited and maybe there's more to the story, but I really don't understand why the school wouldn't mention those other things. If she had real behavioral problems or other specific issues, I'd think those would be what they'd mention. Hell, a specific school policy would've even been nice.

But they didn't mention any. We can only go by what they mentioned. Those reasons mentioned insane, mean-spirited, and incredibly vague.

no, its on the school for having bigoted and hate-inspired principles.

 

[pollardsvision]

Seems kind of

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

It's well within their right. It just makes them ####heads.

Not really. If you don't agree with what the school's principles are, then why apply in the first place? I doubt that the information that whatever the child was doing was likely against school code wasn't readily given to the parents, or they weren't warned multiple times prior (which the letter indicated they were). There are plenty of private schools with looser codes they could go to, or go to a public school. We also don't know exactly what behavior she exhibited, the school not being more elaborate could be to protect the child more than there not be any other reason than she looked 'boyish'. I've known plenty of Tomboys growing up, and can't say I was ever confused to whether they were a girl or not.

I can't imagine the grandparents of this 8 year old girl thought that short hair, pants, and general plainness would violate this school's principle of "not condoning or supporting sexual immorality, practicing homosexual lifestyle, or alternative gender identity" as the school's letter put it.

Maybe it is on them for not understanding that.

We don't know what behavior she exhibited and maybe there's more to the story, but I really don't understand why the school wouldn't mention those other things. If she had real behavioral problems or other specific issues, I'd think those would be what they'd mention. Hell, a specific school policy would've even been nice.

But they didn't mention any. We can only go by what they mentioned. Those reasons mentioned insane, mean-spirited, and incredibly vague.

no, its on the school for having bigoted and hate-inspired principles.

I was being sarcastic.

Parents of 8 year old tomboys don't generally think that behavior is sexually immoral, homosexual, or an alternative sexual identity (no mention of the girl ID'ing as anything other than female).

Those being the only bad principles the school is looking not to condone in this case.

 

[sublimeone]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

Not a fan of Cliff's anti-religious crusade, but I should point out that Hamas has food drives, homeless shelters, and orphanages. But they're still an evil insane terrorist organization.

So maybe we shouldn't just lump "religion" into one big pile?

I think the point is that religions shouldn't brag about having food drives and homeless shelters as if this is proof of their excellence. Man has a basic tendency to take care of those of their own that are in sore straits while at the same time slaughtering those that they disagree with. The US, including most religious people in the US, is no exception. (with any of the wars fought in the 20th-21st century as proof of the previous statement.)

So why bring religion into it? It seems the things you mention are true of humanity not just the religious.

 

[Scoresman]

Seems kind of

It's a private school. So far as I know, they take no money from the state. Unlike, for instance, a retail bakery, they're not serving the general public.

Given these circumstances, why can't they expel anyone they choose for whatever reason they choose, or for no reason at all?

It's well within their right. It just makes them ####heads.

Not really. If you don't agree with what the school's principles are, then why apply in the first place? I doubt that the information that whatever the child was doing was likely against school code wasn't readily given to the parents, or they weren't warned multiple times prior (which the letter indicated they were). There are plenty of private schools with looser codes they could go to, or go to a public school. We also don't know exactly what behavior she exhibited, the school not being more elaborate could be to protect the child more than there not be any other reason than she looked 'boyish'. I've known plenty of Tomboys growing up, and can't say I was ever confused to whether they were a girl or not.

I can't imagine the grandparents of this 8 year old girl thought that short hair, pants, and general plainness would violate this school's principle of "not condoning or supporting sexual immorality, practicing homosexual lifestyle, or alternative gender identity" as the school's letter put it.

Maybe it is on them for not understanding that.

We don't know what behavior she exhibited and maybe there's more to the story, but I really don't understand why the school wouldn't mention those other things. If she had real behavioral problems or other specific issues, I'd think those would be what they'd mention. Hell, a specific school policy would've even been nice.

But they didn't mention any. We can only go by what they mentioned. Those reasons mentioned insane, mean-spirited, and incredibly vague.

no, its on the school for having bigoted and hate-inspired principles.

I was being sarcastic.

Parents of 8 year old tomboys don't generally think that behavior is sexually immoral, homosexual, or an alternative sexual identity (no mention of the girl ID'ing as anything other than female).

Those being the only bad principles the school is looking not to condone in this case.

oh, sorry then. carry on.

 

[proninja]

Westboro is the Goodwin's Law of religion threads

 

[shader]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

Not a fan of Cliff's anti-religious crusade, but I should point out that Hamas has food drives, homeless shelters, and orphanages. But they're still an evil insane terrorist organization.

So maybe we shouldn't just lump "religion" into one big pile?

I think the point is that religions shouldn't brag about having food drives and homeless shelters as if this is proof of their excellence. Man has a basic tendency to take care of those of their own that are in sore straits while at the same time slaughtering those that they disagree with. The US, including most religious people in the US, is no exception. (with any of the wars fought in the 20th-21st century as proof of the previous statement.)

So why bring religion into it? It seems the things you mention are true of humanity not just the religious.

Because Cliff lives to "bring religion into it"

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Religion

Ah yes, forget the food drives, the homeless shelters, orphanages, the universities and hospitals that religion has given us... that's just cover for kicking little girls out of private schools

Not a fan of Cliff's anti-religious crusade, but I should point out that Hamas has food drives, homeless shelters, and orphanages. But they're still an evil insane terrorist organization.

So maybe we shouldn't just lump "religion" into one big pile?

I think the point is that religions shouldn't brag about having food drives and homeless shelters as if this is proof of their excellence. Man has a basic tendency to take care of those of their own that are in sore straits while at the same time slaughtering those that they disagree with. The US, including most religious people in the US, is no exception. (with any of the wars fought in the 20th-21st century as proof of the previous statement.)

So why bring religion into it? It seems the things you mention are true of humanity not just the religious.