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A-11 Offense: Illegal in the NFL and banned in 10 states. (1 Viewer)

dgreen

dgreen

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Is the Best Defense a Random Offense?

By Freakonomics

Last year on this blog, Ian Ayres wondered why, to truly keep their opponents guessing, football teams don’t pick plays at random.

Two California high school football coaches have taken the thought one step further and randomized the plays themselves — by scrapping the traditional starting formation and making every player a potential receiver (normally, only five players can receive a pass from the quarterback). That increases the possible number of plays the team can run, from the usual 36, to 16,632.

It’s called the A-11 Offense — all 11 players are eligible to catch the ball — and it works by introducing such unpredictability into where a quarterback will pass the ball that it baffles the defending team and gives the offense a better chance of breaking through.

And it does work — enough of the time that it has helped the Piedmont Highlanders, the high school team that first deployed it, improve its record for each of the last three years, as they run A-11 plays more and more often. The randomized plays have given the scrappy team an advantage over brawnier teams that used to regularly clean their clock.

A-11 isn’t legal in the N.F.L., and it is uncommon at the college level. It’s so controversial in high school football that it has been banned in 10 states.

But the success of the new offense has made its inventors, Highlanders coaches Kurt Bryan and Steve Humphries, heroes to some who say A-11 could revolutionize the sport. Their detractors say A-11 is dishonest and unsportsmanlike because it uses randomness to distract and deceive the opposing team.

Using randomness in sports strategy may be effective, but is it sportsmanlike?
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I'd like to see the game stats from those games. I'm curious of how many sacks and tackles for loss they allow without offensive linemen to block.

 
SlaX said:
I'd like to see the game stats from those games. I'm curious of how many sacks and tackles for loss they allow without offensive linemen to block.
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Gee, I wonder if the HC and OC have overlooked this having run it for several years and improving their win total each season.
 
How does that formation make everyone eligible? Thought the rule was that anyone on the line and covered (ie had someone nearer the sideline also on the line) was not eligible and that you had to have 7 players on the line.

 
dparker713 said:
How does that formation make everyone eligible? Thought the rule was that anyone on the line and covered (ie had someone nearer the sideline also on the line) was not eligible and that you had to have 7 players on the line.
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It starts out as a kicking formation. Apparently this opens up a loophole as to who is eligible.
 
The Dolphins will try to employ this offense next week.

Look for Ronnie Brown to gain 400 yards rushing and 400 yards passing.

 
Short Corner said:
SlaX said:
I'd like to see the game stats from those games. I'm curious of how many sacks and tackles for loss they allow without offensive linemen to block.
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Gee, I wonder if the HC and OC have overlooked this having run it for several years and improving their win total each season.
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I think you're assuming he meant it wouldn't work. I'm also curious how many tackles for loss they take. Do they have one negative yardage play for every two positive plays? That would obviously be very different than what we're used to and would make watching the offense completely different from a fan perspective.
 
dparker713 said:
How does that formation make everyone eligible? Thought the rule was that anyone on the line and covered (ie had someone nearer the sideline also on the line) was not eligible and that you had to have 7 players on the line.
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These 7 players don't have to be right next to each other. Specifically, the 5 players that consist of an offensive "line" don't need to be next to each other. If you take a look at the diagram of the plays only 3 players are used as offensive "linemen": Center, Left Guard, Right Guard.
 
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I've actually been thinking about this for a while. Why are there eligible receiver rules anyway? You can still keep players in to block, you just wouldn't need to. It would open up the possibilities and make the game much more exciting to watch.

 
Innovation and "trickeration" are obviously unsportsmanlike activities in the game of football!

Clearly, onside kicks outside of the last 2 minutes of a game and fake punts/field goals should be BANNED due to the hurt feelings they can cause when they are successful.

:lmao:

 
Coach3K said:
Innovation and "trickeration" are obviously unsportsmanlike activities in the game of football!Clearly, onside kicks outside of the last 2 minutes of a game and fake punts/field goals should be BANNED due to the hurt feelings they can cause when they are successful. :lmao:
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:lmao: Fake hand offs and the flea-flicker should also be made illegal. Not sure about the hook and ladder though, just because it looks cool when executed well.
 
And to further add to my comments....

Due to randomness causing such severe cases of "Butthurtitis", pass plays should be restricted only to 2nd and 3rd downs, and can only be used where 5 or more yards are needed to get a 1st down/score.

In addition, coaches will be required to submit the script of their first 20 offensive plays to the opposing team before the game, in order to reduce the effects of this insidious "Randomness Factor" that is ruining the game of football!

 
I am trying to figure out how this works, so after some googling, I found this espn article. Here are some of the more pertinent parts, some things bolded for emphasis.

Here's how it works: On every play in the A-11, there are two quarterbacks in the backfield at one time, both set up seven yards behind the line of scrimmage. Every man on the field wears a number that potentially makes him an eligible receiver. Potential receivers set up in "pods" at each end of the field. The line, in the base set, consists of two tight ends and a center. Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers. All of this is legal because technically, according to the rules of high-school football, the Piedmont players are lined up in what is known as a "scrimmage kick" formation (hence, the quarterbacks placed seven yards behind the line, so as to comply with the rules), and therefore, normal eligibility issues do not apply.
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Says here up to 6 are eligble. :confused: I do understand the technicality of the scrimmage formation though.
On every play, the possibilities are virtually limitless. Draws, wedge plays, screen passes, the run-and-shoot, the option -- all of them can be employed, depending on how the defense reacts and on how your own players execute blocks in the open field. Of course, this also means that the field is spread precariously thin, and you'd think this would allow several extremely angry linemen and linebackers to respond to such cuteness by blowing through and decapitating one or both quarterbacks. But when Piedmont implemented the A-11 last season, that didn't happen.
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Yah, they would get blown up in the NFL. :hifive:
At the moment, thanks to the NFL's neo-Fascist rulebook, it would be almost impossible to implement the A-11 on the professional level. But on the college level, there is a loophole -- a rule permits a scrimmage-kick formation if "it is obvious that a kick may be attempted," opening up the A-11 for use on certain situations, such as 4th-and-short or in goal-line sets -- up to, say, 10-12 times per game. Bryan said he expects up to 70 college programs (and up to a couple thousand high schools) to implement some form of the A-11 into their offense this season. Among those who have contacted him was "an extremely well-known coach in Texas," which I'm assuming was either Texas Tech's mad genius, Mike Leach, or Eric Taylor from "Friday Night Lights."
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Yep, no in the NFL.
 
"I don't know you from adam, but if you're gonna play the jukebox,

Please don't play A-11"

--Song by Buck Owens

 
These coaches found a loophole in the rules and are exploiting it. This offense is not in the spirit of high school football. The rules will be modified to fix it and you will see the A-11 die out.

 
Mr. Peterson said:
These coaches found a loophole in the rules and are exploiting it. This offense is not in the spirit of high school football. The rules will be modified to fix it and you will see the A-11 die out.
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What exactly is the loop hole? I haven't had a chance to read anything, but I don't see what the rules are that prevent this from being used in any league. As far as I know all there is for formation rules is the rule that you have to have 7 men on the line of scrimmage, and the interior 5 are inelligable. (That and motion/shift rules.) That said, I don't see how this is that much of an advantage. I suspect it would be more easily defensed as you move up from HS, where the defensive players become more and more better athletes. The hard part is just that you would have to put in a totally unconventional defense, which would take more than 1 week of preparation to do properly.
 
The "loophole" is that this kicking formation can be run at any time and not just "when a punt or kick is obvious".

 
Grigs Allmoon said:
Xue said:
The "loophole" is that this kicking formation can be run at any time and not just "when a punt or kick is obvious".
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What "kicking formation?"
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The kicking formation that the A-11 starts out as. Did you read any of the articles posted?Basicly, they line up in a scrimmage kick formation, which is used for kicking the football, with no intention of kicking the football, but to run plays out of the formation. It's similar to lining up for a FG every time you're inside the 40, and running plays out of it instead.
 
To me it looks like they are running a formation like this...

O O OXO O O O O O OWhat's wrong with that?

 
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two_dollars said:
Grigs Allmoon said:
Xue said:
The "loophole" is that this kicking formation can be run at any time and not just "when a punt or kick is obvious".
Click to expand...
What "kicking formation?"
Click to expand...
The kicking formation that the A-11 starts out as. Did you read any of the articles posted?Basicly, they line up in a scrimmage kick formation, which is used for kicking the football, with no intention of kicking the football, but to run plays out of the formation. It's similar to lining up for a FG every time you're inside the 40, and running plays out of it instead.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but what is that formation?I can't think of anything special about any kicking formation that has any exceptions to any rules applied to all other formations.
 
To requote what was posted above:

Here's how it works: On every play in the A-11, there are two quarterbacks in the backfield at one time, both set up seven yards behind the line of scrimmage. Every man on the field wears a number that potentially makes him an eligible receiver. Potential receivers set up in "pods" at each end of the field. The line, in the base set, consists of two tight ends and a center. Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers. All of this is legal because technically, according to the rules of high-school football, the Piedmont players are lined up in what is known as a "scrimmage kick" formation (hence, the quarterbacks placed seven yards behind the line, so as to comply with the rules), and therefore, normal eligibility issues do not apply.

 
Grigs Allmoon said:
To me it looks like they are running a formation like this...

Code: 
O   O	   OXO	O		O	O						   O				  O O
What's wrong with that?
Click to expand...
And just for the record, the first thing that came to mind when starting to read about this, would be the advantage you'd gain by shifting the above formation to something like below. This would really change the elligible receivers.
Code: 
^ O   O	   OXO	O		O ^	O	 v		 	 v		  O				  O O
 
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two_dollars said:
To requote what was posted above:

Here's how it works: On every play in the A-11, there are two quarterbacks in the backfield at one time, both set up seven yards behind the line of scrimmage. Every man on the field wears a number that potentially makes him an eligible receiver. Potential receivers set up in "pods" at each end of the field. The line, in the base set, consists of two tight ends and a center. Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers. All of this is legal because technically, according to the rules of high-school football, the Piedmont players are lined up in what is known as a "scrimmage kick" formation (hence, the quarterbacks placed seven yards behind the line, so as to comply with the rules), and therefore, normal eligibility issues do not apply.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I read that, but it doesn't say anything special. On EVERY play 6 players are eligible receivers. The only thing I'm not sure of is the jersey numbers. But, I think, for that, they would just need to report to the refs.
 
Grigs Allmoon said:
two_dollars said:
To requote what was posted above:

Here's how it works: On every play in the A-11, there are two quarterbacks in the backfield at one time, both set up seven yards behind the line of scrimmage. Every man on the field wears a number that potentially makes him an eligible receiver. Potential receivers set up in "pods" at each end of the field. The line, in the base set, consists of two tight ends and a center. Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers. All of this is legal because technically, according to the rules of high-school football, the Piedmont players are lined up in what is known as a "scrimmage kick" formation (hence, the quarterbacks placed seven yards behind the line, so as to comply with the rules), and therefore, normal eligibility issues do not apply.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I read that, but it doesn't say anything special. On EVERY play 6 players are eligible receivers. The only thing I'm not sure of is the jersey numbers. But, I think, for that, they would just need to report to the refs.
Click to expand...
They don't need to report because the jersey-number rules don't apply. They don't apply because it's a kicking formation.
 
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Grigs Allmoon said:
two_dollars said:
To requote what was posted above:

Here's how it works: On every play in the A-11, there are two quarterbacks in the backfield at one time, both set up seven yards behind the line of scrimmage. Every man on the field wears a number that potentially makes him an eligible receiver. Potential receivers set up in "pods" at each end of the field. The line, in the base set, consists of two tight ends and a center. Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers. All of this is legal because technically, according to the rules of high-school football, the Piedmont players are lined up in what is known as a "scrimmage kick" formation (hence, the quarterbacks placed seven yards behind the line, so as to comply with the rules), and therefore, normal eligibility issues do not apply.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I read that, but it doesn't say anything special. On EVERY play 6 players are eligible receivers. The only thing I'm not sure of is the jersey numbers. But, I think, for that, they would just need to report to the refs.
Click to expand...
Uh.. the name A-11 stands for All 11, as in, all 11 players are eligable, because it's a special teams formation. Why would they name it A-11 if only 6 were still eligable?
 
two_dollars said:
Grigs Allmoon said:
two_dollars said:
To requote what was posted above:

Here's how it works: On every play in the A-11, there are two quarterbacks in the backfield at one time, both set up seven yards behind the line of scrimmage. Every man on the field wears a number that potentially makes him an eligible receiver. Potential receivers set up in "pods" at each end of the field. The line, in the base set, consists of two tight ends and a center. Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers. All of this is legal because technically, according to the rules of high-school football, the Piedmont players are lined up in what is known as a "scrimmage kick" formation (hence, the quarterbacks placed seven yards behind the line, so as to comply with the rules), and therefore, normal eligibility issues do not apply.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I read that, but it doesn't say anything special. On EVERY play 6 players are eligible receivers. The only thing I'm not sure of is the jersey numbers. But, I think, for that, they would just need to report to the refs.
Click to expand...
Uh.. the name A-11 stands for All 11, as in, all 11 players are eligable, because it's a special teams formation. Why would they name it A-11 if only 6 were still eligable?
Click to expand...
"Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers."
 
Grigs Allmoon said:
two_dollars said:
Grigs Allmoon said:
two_dollars said:
To requote what was posted above:

Here's how it works: On every play in the A-11, there are two quarterbacks in the backfield at one time, both set up seven yards behind the line of scrimmage. Every man on the field wears a number that potentially makes him an eligible receiver. Potential receivers set up in "pods" at each end of the field. The line, in the base set, consists of two tight ends and a center. Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers. All of this is legal because technically, according to the rules of high-school football, the Piedmont players are lined up in what is known as a "scrimmage kick" formation (hence, the quarterbacks placed seven yards behind the line, so as to comply with the rules), and therefore, normal eligibility issues do not apply.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I read that, but it doesn't say anything special. On EVERY play 6 players are eligible receivers. The only thing I'm not sure of is the jersey numbers. But, I think, for that, they would just need to report to the refs.
Click to expand...
Uh.. the name A-11 stands for All 11, as in, all 11 players are eligable, because it's a special teams formation. Why would they name it A-11 if only 6 were still eligable?
Click to expand...
"Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers."
Click to expand...
Well true, but it can be ANY six. It can be one of the guards if he stepped back off the line. I'm sure there's even a way to make the center eligible. This is legal because it's a special teams formation. You cannot do this without that loophole.
 
Grigs Allmoon said:
two_dollars said:
Grigs Allmoon said:
two_dollars said:
To requote what was posted above:

Here's how it works: On every play in the A-11, there are two quarterbacks in the backfield at one time, both set up seven yards behind the line of scrimmage. Every man on the field wears a number that potentially makes him an eligible receiver. Potential receivers set up in "pods" at each end of the field. The line, in the base set, consists of two tight ends and a center. Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers. All of this is legal because technically, according to the rules of high-school football, the Piedmont players are lined up in what is known as a "scrimmage kick" formation (hence, the quarterbacks placed seven yards behind the line, so as to comply with the rules), and therefore, normal eligibility issues do not apply.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I read that, but it doesn't say anything special. On EVERY play 6 players are eligible receivers. The only thing I'm not sure of is the jersey numbers. But, I think, for that, they would just need to report to the refs.
Click to expand...
Uh.. the name A-11 stands for All 11, as in, all 11 players are eligable, because it's a special teams formation. Why would they name it A-11 if only 6 were still eligable?
Click to expand...
"Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers."
Click to expand...
Again, my only suspicion is that through the use of shifts, like I posted above, any of the 11 CAN be eligible, but once the ball is snapped only 6 are, as is the case with every play.
 
two_dollars said:
Grigs Allmoon said:
two_dollars said:
Grigs Allmoon said:
two_dollars said:
To requote what was posted above:

Here's how it works: On every play in the A-11, there are two quarterbacks in the backfield at one time, both set up seven yards behind the line of scrimmage. Every man on the field wears a number that potentially makes him an eligible receiver. Potential receivers set up in "pods" at each end of the field. The line, in the base set, consists of two tight ends and a center. Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers. All of this is legal because technically, according to the rules of high-school football, the Piedmont players are lined up in what is known as a "scrimmage kick" formation (hence, the quarterbacks placed seven yards behind the line, so as to comply with the rules), and therefore, normal eligibility issues do not apply.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I read that, but it doesn't say anything special. On EVERY play 6 players are eligible receivers. The only thing I'm not sure of is the jersey numbers. But, I think, for that, they would just need to report to the refs.
Click to expand...
Uh.. the name A-11 stands for All 11, as in, all 11 players are eligable, because it's a special teams formation. Why would they name it A-11 if only 6 were still eligable?
Click to expand...
"Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers."
Click to expand...
Well true, but it can be ANY six. It can be one of the guards if he stepped back off the line. I'm sure there's even a way to make the center eligible. This is legal because it's a special teams formation. You cannot do this without that loophole.
Click to expand...
The only way I can think to get the C eligible is for him to be on one end of the line. Not sure if that is legal or not...Either way, I still don't see why this is a "special teams" formation.

In the NFL you could line up like:

Code: 
W	W	  T C  T	   W   W			 G  G			  Q R
 
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Grigs Allmoon said:
Again, my only suspicion is that through the use of shifts, like I posted above, any of the 11 CAN be eligible, but once the ball is snapped only 6 are, as is the case with every play.
Click to expand...
No. Any of the 11 can be eligible because it's a kicking formation. It's a kicking formation because at least one of the two QB's is lined up 7 yards behind the LOS. And because it's a kicking formation, any of the 11 can be eligible.
 
Maybe this will help you understand:

The A-11 is a football offense which, in reliance on a particular high school rule exemption, puts eleven offensive players on the field who are eligible to catch a down field pass, at least until they are actually set and the ball is snapped. By contrast, on ordinary plays at least five players (the linemen) are automatically ineligible because of the numbers on their jerseys. But in the A-11, the offensive players hover near the line and then quickly set for the required one second before the ball is snapped, thus putting the burden on the defense to determine who is actually eligible to catch passes.

It is a special teams play because the QB lines up at minimum 7 1/2 yards behind the line of scrimmage

 
The rest of the article describing how the A-11 works:

In both high school and college football, while a team is on offense it is required to have a minimum of five players wearing jerseys numbered 50-79 who line up on the line of scrimmage. These poor souls are branded “ineligible,” as in they are ineligible to receive a forward pass, regardless of where they actually line up. So you cannot throw number 63 the ball, even if he lined up in the backfield. Similarly, if 63 lines up at Flanker and 22 lines up as a covered guard, neither can go out for a forward pass, as 22 is barred under the traditional rule that only allows ends and backfield players to be eligible for forward passes. And unlike the NFL, High School and College ball does not have a reporting system to allow ineligible guys to become eligible again. This rule's animating rationale appears to have been an attempt to stamp out tackle eligible plays, possibly as a direct rebuke to Bear Bryant who in particular had used such plays with success. This is the base rule. The A-11 offense seeks to liberate those five from their “ineligible” status by relying on an exception to the general rule: the “scrimmage kick” rule.In both high school and college, if a team goes into a “scrimmage kick formation” (more on this in a bit) the offense can disregard the rule requiring the five-man minimum of 50-79 numbered players and can, if it likes, put eleven guys on the field who all have eligible numbers. (Still, only a total of six guys remain eligible to receive a forward pass: the two ends and the four backfield players. ) The scrimmage kick exception was put in sometime after the number-eligibility limitation to allow more flexibility on punt plays by allowing teams to put faster players on the field rather than having to keep five linemen on the field. So the A-11 offense is built on this scrimmage kick exception. To confuse the defense, the offense puts as many guys up near (but not on the line) as possible, and then shortly before the snap six of them (two ends and four interior linemen, not counting the center who is already on the ball) move onto the line, set for one second, and the ball is snapped and off the offense goes. The defense then must figure out who is eligible to receive a forward pass. The offense compounds this confusion by having the ineligible guys put their hands up, run bubble plays or little dummy hitch routes behind the line. They also can of course block for run plays or for screens, and they can even receive laterals (backwards passes), but a lineman wearing number 63 could already do that without the scrimmage kick formation. Note also, however, that once a player has lined up on the line of scrimmage he remains ineligible and you can’t then shift who is on and who is off multiple times. What is the scrimmage kick formation? I saved this for last because the formation is defined differently for college and high school. In high school, a team lines up in a “scrimmage kick formation” anytime they have a “receiver” of the snap lined up seven yards deep or more. (I say “a receiver” versus the receiver because it doesn’t have to be the actual recipient of the snap. For example, on a fake punt the punter lines up more than seven yards deep but the actual snap might go to the upback who is lined up only four yards deep.) So all a high school team needs to do is put its quarterback seven yards deep and then it may employ this scrimmage kick exception. This is how Piedmont turned the A-11 into an every down offense.
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