A-11 Offense: Illegal in the NFL and banned in 10 states. (1 Viewer)

[Grigs Allmoon]

Maybe this will help you understand:

The A-11 is a football offense which, in reliance on a particular high school rule exemption, puts eleven offensive players on the field who are eligible to catch a down field pass, at least until they are actually set and the ball is snapped. By contrast, on ordinary plays at least five players (the linemen) are automatically ineligible because of the numbers on their jerseys. But in the A-11, the offensive players hover near the line and then quickly set for the required one second before the ball is snapped, thus putting the burden on the defense to determine who is actually eligible to catch passes.

It is a special teams play because the QB lines up at minimum 7 1/2 yards behind the line of scrimmage

Yeah, that quote pretty much confirms what I saw as the advantage.I still don't see what this "kicking formation" is, though.

What if the QB didn't line up 7 1/2 yards from the LOS? What rule would that break?

If there is some rule against that, that I am not aware of, then just line up in a slightly deep shotgun. Or... Just put the 2nd QB (also known as a running back) 7.5 yards back.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

The rest of the article describing how the A-11 works:

In both high school and college football, while a team is on offense it is required to have a minimum of five players wearing jerseys numbered 50-79 who line up on the line of scrimmage. These poor souls are branded “ineligible,” as in they are ineligible to receive a forward pass, regardless of where they actually line up. So you cannot throw number 63 the ball, even if he lined up in the backfield. Similarly, if 63 lines up at Flanker and 22 lines up as a covered guard, neither can go out for a forward pass, as 22 is barred under the traditional rule that only allows ends and backfield players to be eligible for forward passes. And unlike the NFL, High School and College ball does not have a reporting system to allow ineligible guys to become eligible again. This rule's animating rationale appears to have been an attempt to stamp out tackle eligible plays, possibly as a direct rebuke to Bear Bryant who in particular had used such plays with success. This is the base rule. The A-11 offense seeks to liberate those five from their “ineligible” status by relying on an exception to the general rule: the “scrimmage kick” rule.In both high school and college, if a team goes into a “scrimmage kick formation” (more on this in a bit) the offense can disregard the rule requiring the five-man minimum of 50-79 numbered players and can, if it likes, put eleven guys on the field who all have eligible numbers. (Still, only a total of six guys remain eligible to receive a forward pass: the two ends and the four backfield players. ) The scrimmage kick exception was put in sometime after the number-eligibility limitation to allow more flexibility on punt plays by allowing teams to put faster players on the field rather than having to keep five linemen on the field. So the A-11 offense is built on this scrimmage kick exception. To confuse the defense, the offense puts as many guys up near (but not on the line) as possible, and then shortly before the snap six of them (two ends and four interior linemen, not counting the center who is already on the ball) move onto the line, set for one second, and the ball is snapped and off the offense goes. The defense then must figure out who is eligible to receive a forward pass. The offense compounds this confusion by having the ineligible guys put their hands up, run bubble plays or little dummy hitch routes behind the line. They also can of course block for run plays or for screens, and they can even receive laterals (backwards passes), but a lineman wearing number 63 could already do that without the scrimmage kick formation. Note also, however, that once a player has lined up on the line of scrimmage he remains ineligible and you can’t then shift who is on and who is off multiple times. What is the scrimmage kick formation? I saved this for last because the formation is defined differently for college and high school. In high school, a team lines up in a “scrimmage kick formation” anytime they have a “receiver” of the snap lined up seven yards deep or more. (I say “a receiver” versus the receiver because it doesn’t have to be the actual recipient of the snap. For example, on a fake punt the punter lines up more than seven yards deep but the actual snap might go to the upback who is lined up only four yards deep.) So all a high school team needs to do is put its quarterback seven yards deep and then it may employ this scrimmage kick exception. This is how Piedmont turned the A-11 into an every down offense.

Ahh... That helps. Looks like this would be legal in the NFL, then. This is new to me, though..."Note also, however, that once a player has lined up on the line of scrimmage he remains ineligible and you can’t then shift who is on and who is off multiple times."Is that right?

 

[two_dollars]

Yes, that's why they wait until the last second to line up. I do believe you are allowed 1 shift, just not on and off, on and off.

 

[yeltneb]

Some of you need to work on reading. The article also says that the scrimmage kick formation is not legal in the NFL. I'm pretty sure that the guys running the offense have a better concept of what is and isn't legal than a bunch of nerds on a fantasy football message board.

Let's hope this leads to the return of the swinging gate, which we ran as a base formation for one game in high school with disastrous results.

 

[Christo]

Some of you need to work on reading. The article also says that the scrimmage kick formation is not legal in the NFL. I'm pretty sure that the guys running the offense have a better concept of what is and isn't legal than a bunch of nerds on a fantasy football message board.Let's hope this leads to the return of the swinging gate, which we ran as a base formation for one game in high school with disastrous results.

Ahhh, Saturday. The sweet smell of victory.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

Some of you need to work on reading. The article also says that the scrimmage kick formation is not legal in the NFL.

As far as I have understood the "scrimmage kick formation" simply refers to having "a" QB lined up 7.5+ yards behind the LOS. There are also jersey number considerations, but that doesn't matter in the NFL.So, are you saying it is illegal to line up 7.5+ yards deep in the backfield?

 

[yeltneb]

Some of you need to work on reading. The article also says that the scrimmage kick formation is not legal in the NFL.

As far as I have understood the "scrimmage kick formation" simply refers to having "a" QB lined up 7.5+ yards behind the LOS. There are also jersey number considerations, but that doesn't matter in the NFL.So, are you saying it is illegal to line up 7.5+ yards deep in the backfield?

I really this was buried right there in the middle of the first post in a paragraph all by itself, but I guess you missed this

A-11 isn’t legal in the N.F.L., and it is uncommon at the college level. It’s so controversial in high school football that it has been banned in 10 states.

 

[yeltneb]

Some of you need to work on reading. The article also says that the scrimmage kick formation is not legal in the NFL. I'm pretty sure that the guys running the offense have a better concept of what is and isn't legal than a bunch of nerds on a fantasy football message board.Let's hope this leads to the return of the swinging gate, which we ran as a base formation for one game in high school with disastrous results.

Ahhh, Saturday. The sweet smell of victory.

Whatever you say, Ace. Look me up. I'll be the guy in burnt orange eating chicken fried bacon and drinking beer by Big Tex at 8:30 Saturday morning.

 

[Grigs Allmoon]

Some of you need to work on reading. The article also says that the scrimmage kick formation is not legal in the NFL.

As far as I have understood the "scrimmage kick formation" simply refers to having "a" QB lined up 7.5+ yards behind the LOS. There are also jersey number considerations, but that doesn't matter in the NFL.So, are you saying it is illegal to line up 7.5+ yards deep in the backfield?

I really this was buried right there in the middle of the first post in a paragraph all by itself, but I guess you missed this

A-11 isn’t legal in the N.F.L., and it is uncommon at the college level. It’s so controversial in high school football that it has been banned in 10 states.

As a matter of fact, I did notice that. But, for the fun of it, I just thought I'd ask why this was illegal. You know... What rule does it break?

 

[yeltneb]

Some of you need to work on reading. The article also says that the scrimmage kick formation is not legal in the NFL.

As far as I have understood the "scrimmage kick formation" simply refers to having "a" QB lined up 7.5+ yards behind the LOS. There are also jersey number considerations, but that doesn't matter in the NFL.So, are you saying it is illegal to line up 7.5+ yards deep in the backfield?

I really this was buried right there in the middle of the first post in a paragraph all by itself, but I guess you missed this

A-11 isn’t legal in the N.F.L., and it is uncommon at the college level. It’s so controversial in high school football that it has been banned in 10 states.

As a matter of fact, I did notice that. But, for the fun of it, I just thought I'd ask why this was illegal. You know... What rule does it break?

Beats me. Ask the Google.

 

[Refbuz]

These coaches found a loophole in the rules and are exploiting it. This offense is not in the spirit of high school football. The rules will be modified to fix it and you will see the A-11 die out.

What exactly is the loop hole? I haven't had a chance to read anything, but I don't see what the rules are that prevent this from being used in any league. As far as I know all there is for formation rules is the rule that you have to have 7 men on the line of scrimmage, and the interior 5 are inelligable. (That and motion/shift rules.)

The "loophole" is exploiting the numbering exception that applies to "conventional" offenses on regular scrimmage (non-kicking) downs. The rules require the offense to to have 5 players on the Line of Scrimmage numbered 50-79, this rule applies to ALL LEVELS of football. The exception to the rule in is that in a "kicking" formation teams are not required to meet this rule. The NCAA and NFL have the same exception, but word the rule differently than the NFHS. The rule states in the NCAA/NFL that the numbering exception only applies in "obvious that a kick may be attempted". The NFHS would only have to make an editorial change to their rule book in order to close this loophole.

That said, I don't see how this is that much of an advantage. I suspect it would be more easily defensed as you move up from HS, where the defensive players become more and more better athletes. The hard part is just that you would have to put in a totally unconventional defense, which would take more than 1 week of preparation to do properly.

The advantage is created because the eligible receivers are not clearly defined until a second or 2 before the snap. A HS play clock is only 25 seconds, if the offense takes 15 seconds to get the play called and lined up, then shifts for another 5-6 seconds that leaves the defense 4-5 seconds to make an adjustment to the formation.

I still don't see what this "kicking formation" is, though.

A kicking formation is defined in HS as any formation where a player is lined up 7 or more yards behind the center and there is no player in position to take a hand to hand snap

What if the QB didn't line up 7 1/2 yards from the LOS? What rule would that break?If there is some rule against that, that I am not aware of, then just line up in a slightly deep shotgun. Or... Just put the 2nd QB (also known as a running back) 7.5 yards back.

If the QB is less than 7 yards from the center it is an illegal formation because it is not considered a "kicking formation". Since it is not a "kicking formation" the numbering exception that the A-11 offense exploits does not apply. Since the normal formation rules apply, the offense is in an illegal formation because they are required to have players numbered 50-79 on the LOS.

Yes, that's why they wait until the last second to line up. I do believe you are allowed 1 shift, just not on and off, on and off.

There is no limit to the # of shifts, the only requirement is that whoever shifts, reset prior to the snap.

 

[Short Corner]

The "loophole" is exploiting the numbering exception that applies to "conventional" offenses on regular scrimmage The advantage is created because the eligible receivers are not clearly defined until a second or 2 before the snap. A HS play clock is only 25 seconds, if the offense takes 15 seconds to get the play called and lined up, then shifts for another 5-6 seconds that leaves the defense 4-5 seconds to make an adjustment to the formation.

This isn't unique to HS. There is no rule, nor should there be that says you mst give the defense time to adjust to a shift. College or NFL could create the same scenario simply by delaying their shift. With that said, there is no need to as they can legally snap the ball one second after the players have reset.

 

[GregR_2]

Further to what Refbuzz said about why it wouldn't work in the NFL... even if they could use the formation in non-kicking situations, the NFL also has rules that high school and college don't that if your number does not correctly identify you as eligible or inelligible which you will be on the subsequent play, then you must report to the ref who must inform the defensive captain.

So even if they could use it, by rule the defense would still be informed which players were the ineligible ones. It might be more confusing to find them amidst 11 spread out players, but not nearly as much as trying to figure out who they are on your own.

 

[Phurfur]

I am trying to figure out how this works, so after some googling, I found this espn article. Here are some of the more pertinent parts, some things bolded for emphasis.

Here's how it works: On every play in the A-11, there are two quarterbacks in the backfield at one time, both set up seven yards behind the line of scrimmage. Every man on the field wears a number that potentially makes him an eligible receiver. Potential receivers set up in "pods" at each end of the field. The line, in the base set, consists of two tight ends and a center. Once the ball is snapped, up to six players (including both quarterbacks) become eligible receivers. All of this is legal because technically, according to the rules of high-school football, the Piedmont players are lined up in what is known as a "scrimmage kick" formation (hence, the quarterbacks placed seven yards behind the line, so as to comply with the rules), and therefore, normal eligibility issues do not apply.

Says here up to 6 are eligble. I do understand the technicality of the scrimmage formation though.

On every play, the possibilities are virtually limitless. Draws, wedge plays, screen passes, the run-and-shoot, the option -- all of them can be employed, depending on how the defense reacts and on how your own players execute blocks in the open field. Of course, this also means that the field is spread precariously thin, and you'd think this would allow several extremely angry linemen and linebackers to respond to such cuteness by blowing through and decapitating one or both quarterbacks. But when Piedmont implemented the A-11 last season, that didn't happen.

Yah, they would get blown up in the NFL.

At the moment, thanks to the NFL's neo-Fascist rulebook, it would be almost impossible to implement the A-11 on the professional level. But on the college level, there is a loophole -- a rule permits a scrimmage-kick formation if "it is obvious that a kick may be attempted," opening up the A-11 for use on certain situations, such as 4th-and-short or in goal-line sets -- up to, say, 10-12 times per game. Bryan said he expects up to 70 college programs (and up to a couple thousand high schools) to implement some form of the A-11 into their offense this season. Among those who have contacted him was "an extremely well-known coach in Texas," which I'm assuming was either Texas Tech's mad genius, Mike Leach, or Eric Taylor from "Friday Night Lights."

Yep, no in the NFL.

At the moment, thanks to the NFL's neo-Fascist rulebook, it would be almost impossible to implement the A-11 on the professional level.

]

What????????????????????????and why does everyone assume this would work in the NFL?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

That is a pretty sad and pathetic way to win football games.

 

[dgreen]

The "loophole" is exploiting the numbering exception that applies to "conventional" offenses on regular scrimmage

The advantage is created because the eligible receivers are not clearly defined until a second or 2 before the snap. A HS play clock is only 25 seconds, if the offense takes 15 seconds to get the play called and lined up, then shifts for another 5-6 seconds that leaves the defense 4-5 seconds to make an adjustment to the formation.

This isn't unique to HS. There is no rule, nor should there be that says you mst give the defense time to adjust to a shift. College or NFL could create the same scenario simply by delaying their shift. With that said, there is no need to as they can legally snap the ball one second after the players have reset.

No they can't. In the NFL, before an offense even breaks the huddle, the defense knows who will be an eligible receiver and who will be ineligible. With the A11 offense, you don't know who the eligible receivers are until they are done shifting and motioning. You have about 2 seconds between the time they show who is eligible and they snap the ball.The whole point of the original article was how this increases the number of possible plays a team can run by increasing the number of players who can run a play. It makes it more difficult to guess what's going to happen next.

 

[GregR_2]

The rest of the article describing how the A-11 works:

In both high school and college football, while a team is on offense it is required to have a minimum of five players wearing jerseys numbered 50-79 who line up on the line of scrimmage. These poor souls are branded “ineligible,” as in they are ineligible to receive a forward pass, regardless of where they actually line up. So you cannot throw number 63 the ball, even if he lined up in the backfield. Similarly, if 63 lines up at Flanker and 22 lines up as a covered guard, neither can go out for a forward pass, as 22 is barred under the traditional rule that only allows ends and backfield players to be eligible for forward passes. And unlike the NFL, High School and College ball does not have a reporting system to allow ineligible guys to become eligible again. This rule's animating rationale appears to have been an attempt to stamp out tackle eligible plays, possibly as a direct rebuke to Bear Bryant who in particular had used such plays with success.

This is the base rule. The A-11 offense seeks to liberate those five from their “ineligible” status by relying on an exception to the general rule: the “scrimmage kick” rule.

In both high school and college, if a team goes into a “scrimmage kick formation” (more on this in a bit) the offense can disregard the rule requiring the five-man minimum of 50-79 numbered players and can, if it likes, put eleven guys on the field who all have eligible numbers. (Still, only a total of six guys remain eligible to receive a forward pass: the two ends and the four backfield players. ) The scrimmage kick exception was put in sometime after the number-eligibility limitation to allow more flexibility on punt plays by allowing teams to put faster players on the field rather than having to keep five linemen on the field.

So the A-11 offense is built on this scrimmage kick exception. To confuse the defense, the offense puts as many guys up near (but not on the line) as possible, and then shortly before the snap six of them (two ends and four interior linemen, not counting the center who is already on the ball) move onto the line, set for one second, and the ball is snapped and off the offense goes. The defense then must figure out who is eligible to receive a forward pass. The offense compounds this confusion by having the ineligible guys put their hands up, run bubble plays or little dummy hitch routes behind the line. They also can of course block for run plays or for screens, and they can even receive laterals (backwards passes), but a lineman wearing number 63 could already do that without the scrimmage kick formation. Note also, however, that once a player has lined up on the line of scrimmage he remains ineligible and you can’t then shift who is on and who is off multiple times.

What is the scrimmage kick formation? I saved this for last because the formation is defined differently for college and high school. In high school, a team lines up in a “scrimmage kick formation” anytime they have a “receiver” of the snap lined up seven yards deep or more. (I say “a receiver” versus the receiver because it doesn’t have to be the actual recipient of the snap. For example, on a fake punt the punter lines up more than seven yards deep but the actual snap might go to the upback who is lined up only four yards deep.) So all a high school team needs to do is put its quarterback seven yards deep and then it may employ this scrimmage kick exception. This is how Piedmont turned the A-11 into an every down offense.

Ahh... That helps. Looks like this would be legal in the NFL, then.

This is new to me, though...

"Note also, however, that once a player has lined up on the line of scrimmage he remains ineligible and you can’t then shift who is on and who is off multiple times."

Is that right?

No, it wouldn't be legal in the NFL. It would be a 5 yard penalty for illegal substitution for having players whose number does not match the position they took, eligible or ineligible. The NFL does not suspend those rules for scrimmage kicks, like high school and college do.If you wanted to put 11 eligible-numbered players on the field in the NFL, the 5 who would be ineligible on the subsequent play must report to the ref before they huddle that they are ineligible. The ref then informs the defensive captain. So the defense knows who are eligible and who are not, which removes the big reason for running the A-11.

Further, in the NFL the offense cannot snap the ball until the ref is back in his normal position after informing the defense. If the play clock expires during this time it is delay of game on the offense. I imagine teams trying this in the NFL would lose some timeouts due to running out of play clock.

 

[Refbuz]

The "loophole" is exploiting the numbering exception that applies to "conventional" offenses on regular scrimmage The advantage is created because the eligible receivers are not clearly defined until a second or 2 before the snap. A HS play clock is only 25 seconds, if the offense takes 15 seconds to get the play called and lined up, then shifts for another 5-6 seconds that leaves the defense 4-5 seconds to make an adjustment to the formation.

This isn't unique to HS. There is no rule, nor should there be that says you mst give the defense time to adjust to a shift. College or NFL could create the same scenario simply by delaying their shift. With that said, there is no need to as they can legally snap the ball one second after the players have reset.

You're missing the point. Shifting will always be permitted by rule, but the shifting isn't what is creating the advantage. The fact that EVERYONE on offense is WEARING AN ELIGIBLE NUMBER because of the loophole is where the offense gains the advantage over the defense.

 

[apalmer]

Previous FFA Discussion

 

[renesauz]

This sort of play should be illegal. It's based on the fact that the defense cannot determine who the eligible recievers are until the ball is snapped because of a loophole in the rulebook left in place for specific kicking plays. This goes well beyond the normal trick play. I can't see any league allowing it to continue being legal.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

"That's not fair/sportsmanlike" is the mating call for someone getting their faces pounded in by something they can't comprehend. More power to them. If opposing coaches are complaining about your offense trying to get it banned, you KNOW you're good.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

"That's not fair/sportsmanlike" is the mating call for someone getting their faces pounded in by something they can't comprehend. More power to them. If opposing coaches are complaining about your offense trying to get it banned, you KNOW you're good.

I couldn't disagree more. It's twisting the rules to gain an unfair advantage. It's not football then but something else.

 

[Refbuz]

"That's not fair/sportsmanlike" is the mating call for someone getting their faces pounded in by something they can't comprehend. More power to them. If opposing coaches are complaining about your offense trying to get it banned, you KNOW you're good.

Do you care that teams are no longer allowed to run the lonesome end play any more?Let's put this in FF terms.Are you ok with an owner using a QB as a WR in their lineup because they run 1 or 2 trick plays a year where a QB lines up as a WR?

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Previous FFA Discussion

Once again proving the FFA is light years ahead of the SP.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

"That's not fair/sportsmanlike" is the mating call for someone getting their faces pounded in by something they can't comprehend. More power to them. If opposing coaches are complaining about your offense trying to get it banned, you KNOW you're good.

Do you care that teams are no longer allowed to run the lonesome end play any more?Let's put this in FF terms.Are you ok with an owner using a QB as a WR in their lineup because they run 1 or 2 trick plays a year where a QB lines up as a WR?

The logic here is overwhelming.