A Day Without Immigrants- Protests planned for February 14 (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

We are either a nation of laws or we aren’t.  

There’s no “I’ll follow the laws I like and will ignore the laws I don’t like”

You want more immigration?  Do it the right way - legally, through the legislative process.

It’s really that simple.  

Of course it’s not that simple. What do you propose we do with 15 million undocumented people living here. Deport them? That would cost billions and I don’t think you want to see what a disaster it would cause. What are we to do with them? 

 

[ekbeats]

We’re discussing different issues. 
What I wrote is that it is nearly impossible for a poor migrant to apply for an American visa. You need to have money and connections. If you don’t have those, your only way to get here is through illegal means. There is no line for you to get in. 

Well then lobby for an increase in legal immigration.  I think you’ll find a receptive audience.  Everyone loves cheap labor, D and R alike.

Take it from someone who was within the Trump movement.  The crux of the problems the deplorables had with illegals was the Democrats flaunting of the laws.  I honestly believe that a huge majority of Trump Republicans have respect for illegals and their work ethic.  

 

[parasaurolophus]

My auto insurance would be so much cheaper without all the uninsured illegal immigrants driving around Colorado that's for sure. 

 

[ekbeats]

Of course it’s not that simple. What do you propose we do with 15 million undocumented people living here. Deport them? That would cost billions and I don’t think you want to see what a disaster it would cause. What are we to do with them? 

You can’t legalize them because it would reward Democrats for flaunting the laws all these years.  So unfortunately they’ll continue to exist in Purgatory.  And I genuinely feel bad for that.  I almost married an illegal about 10 years ago.  I know all about the human side of this issue as she had 2 kids that I became very close with.  I have no issue at all with the immigrants.  I admire them.  I have a BIG issue with the politicians.  Both sides have used these people as pawns and it’s despicable.

 

[ekbeats]

My auto insurance would be so much cheaper without all the uninsured illegal immigrants driving around Colorado that's for sure. 

Funny story on this - about 5 years ago I got too many tickets and had to go through remedial driver school.  It was humiliating.  But it was also hilarious hearing all the stories in the class. One Mexican dude said that he’s been in the US since 1990 and has never had a drivers license.  Every time he got pulled over, which was a lot, he would show the cop a document written in Spanish that he’d say showed that he had a valid license in Mexico.  He said that each and every time he did this, the cop would get confused and just wrote him a ticket based on the address in the DMV database for his auto.  

 

[timschochet]

You can’t legalize them because it would reward Democrats for flaunting the laws all these years.  So unfortunately they’ll continue to exist in Purgatory.  And I genuinely feel bad for that.  I almost married an illegal about 10 years ago.  I know all about the human side of this issue as she had 2 kids that I became very close with.  I have no issue at all with the immigrants.  I admire them.  I have a BIG issue with the politicians.  Both sides have used these people as pawns and it’s despicable.

We agree on the last part. 
But legalizing these people wouldn’t reward Democrats. Exactly the opposite in fact. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Funny story on this - about 5 years ago I got too many tickets and had to go through remedial driver school.  It was humiliating.  But it was also hilarious hearing all the stories in the class. One Mexican dude said that he’s been in the US since 1990 and has never had a drivers license.  Every time he got pulled over, which was a lot, he would show the cop a document written in Spanish that he’d say showed that he had a valid license in Mexico.  He said that each and every time he did this, the cop would get confused and just wrote him a ticket based on the address in the DMV database for his auto.  

Coworker of mine got rear ended. Guy that hit him no hablo. Then just drove away. Wish he would keep going all the way to Mexico or SA and not come back. 

Thanks for costing me 500 bucks more a year. Will I get like 1.50 back on the day without immigrants? 

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

Whose going to do all these jobs when the illegal immigrants become Americans and don't want to do the jobs any more?

 

[Max Power]

Whose going to do all these jobs when the illegal immigrants become Americans and don't want to do the jobs any more?

The new illegals, like a ponzi scheme. There is no downside. 

 

[FairWarning]

Lost, or quit?    I think there is an important distinction there.  

Lost

 

[FairWarning]

I get their attitude but logically it makes no sense, first because they (Indians) could not have crossed borders to come here without papers, and second because it.is far easier for an applicant from India to get here than it is for a poor migrant from Latin America. For the latter it’s almost impossible. There is no “right way” to come here, no line that the Indians have waited in that Latin Americans are waiting in too. 

Three posters just gave examples of doing it the right way. 

 

[FairWarning]

Of course it’s not that simple. What do you propose we do with 15 million undocumented people living here. Deport them? That would cost billions and I don’t think you want to see what a disaster it would cause. What are we to do with them? 

Build a wall from allowing more in illegally.

 

[sho nuff]

What is the middle ground?  All We want is to control who comes into the country - especially in a pandemic.  People lost their jobs over mask mandates but the caravans come in. 

Just getting back on this.

A middle ground between closing the border to all...and severely limiting legal immigration as the last administration did.  And what we have going on now which is way too many coming in...and still too much bottleneck of legal immigration...which leads to more illegal immigration IMO.

And yeah...I get control and pandemic and mask and vaccine mandates...different conversation than what I was going with.  But yeah, definitely a failure to not have required vaccines at the border.

 

[supermike80]

2/14?  Anything happen>?  I saw zero stories or discussion about this.   Did it get cancelled?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'm was strongly in favor of more immigration, but nothing seemed out of the ordinary yesterday, so I guess we don't really need more immigrants after all.  Build the wall, I guess.

(Not really, but I unironically think it would be good if we took these cringey performative exercises more seriously and followed through in a logical way when they prove the opposite point of what their organizers intended.  Then maybe people would stop doing this.)

 

[timschochet]

Disappointing. There is probably quite a bit of merit to what @IvanKaramazovwrote: 

Ah well the fight goes on. 

 

[Phil Elliott]

I know.  But that makes no difference to the folks already here. And most of the farm labor and migrant labor is illegal, always has been. So let’s make them legal.

Let's have them go thru the legalization process...not just award them legal status.

 

[RCon]

I suspect in ten years we will regret allowing uncontrolled illegals entering this country.  Supporters claim we need them for farm workers.  Well myself and my brother have a 2000 cow dairy operation.  We use to hire 30 employees to feed and milk the cows, we went the AI route and installed robot milking machines, and computer chipped the cattle for feeding, we now have five employees which is more then we need.  We use to hire people to to weed our crops, but with GMO seeds and new chemicals no need for that.  We have auto steer/ GPS on our tractors/harvesting equipment—basically self driving the equipment.  I have a friend who has a tree nut farm in CA, they have a machine that shakes the tree and collects the nuts no human touch.  I have a home in AZ when we landscaped the property  with rocks-the contractor showed up with a dump truck and a machine that spread the rocks, he told me he use to have 15/employees he now has two.  Machines are being developed that can pick fruit that is ripe and and leave unripe on the plant, such as strawberries.  Three D printers have even built houses.  So what happens to these people when manual labor jobs disappear, become doctors?  Even the food service industry is looking at machines that can prepare food.  

Pretty good argument for UBI / BIG.  Let's make it happen!

 

[timschochet]

Let's have them go thru the legalization process...not just award them legal status.

I agree. Give them a path…

 

[Stealthycat]

These folks mean to show us that undocumented labor is vital to this country

slave labor/economic imprisonment, human trafficking, drug running and all that going - Biden has been the leader and the Democratic party 100% behind it :(

I can't believe there is a "protest" on all that to be accepted :(  

 

[timschochet]

slave labor/economic imprisonment, human trafficking, drug running and all that going - Biden has been the leader and the Democratic party 100% behind it :(

I can't believe there is a "protest" on all that to be accepted :(  

You’ve repeated this nonsense over several months and over several threads. The vast majority of undocumented immigrants have NOTHING to with slave labor, economic imprisonment, human trafficking or drug running. And neither the Biden administration nor any Democrats are behind any of that either. 
 

Frankly your lies and misstatements are very offensive. 

 

[KarmaPolice]

Pretty much, Tim.   There's a reason he's widely ignored on the boards. 

Democrats are not "behind" human trafficking and drug running in either interpretation of the post.  

 

[Stealthycat]

You’ve repeated this nonsense over several months and over several threads. The vast majority of undocumented immigrants have NOTHING to with slave labor, economic imprisonment, human trafficking or drug running. And neither the Biden administration nor any Democrats are behind any of that either. 
 

Frankly your lies and misstatements are very offensive. 

human trafficking is how they all get here - you know that

you said yourself getting them here and keeping that cheap, untrained, unskilled, basic manual labor force is a motivator and needed right? 

economic imprisonment is just that - keeping people stuck where they are, unable to move away from it and right now, illegals fit that  - you know that

drugs at border are a massive issue - you know that

tell me what the numbers are since Biden was elected on illegals coming into this country - the numbers don't lie and I don't either

 

[MAC_32]

You’ve repeated this nonsense over several months and over several threads. The vast majority of undocumented immigrants have NOTHING to with slave labor, economic imprisonment, human trafficking or drug running. And neither the Biden administration nor any Democrats are behind any of that either. 
 

Frankly your lies and misstatements are very offensive. 

Why are you engaging it.

 

[timschochet]

human trafficking is how they all get here - you know that

you said yourself getting them here and keeping that cheap, untrained, unskilled, basic manual labor force is a motivator and needed right? 

economic imprisonment is just that - keeping people stuck where they are, unable to move away from it and right now, illegals fit that  - you know that

drugs at border are a massive issue - you know that

tell me what the numbers are since Biden was elected on illegals coming into this country - the numbers don't lie and I don't either

1. No it isn’t. Most undocumented immigrants have nothing to do with human trafficking. 

2.No I’ve never argued such an ignorant statement. Americans employ undocumented immigrants for all sorts of jobs, usually on the lower end of the economic scale. They work hard to fill these jobs, often working at more than one for long hours, because they seek to advance. 

3. No I don’t know this and it’s the opposite of the truth. Most undocumented immigrants, like everyone else, seek to advance economically. They’re not imprisoned. (There are sadly exceptions to this rule but the ones who are are typically Asian and did not come here across the southern border.) 

4. The vast majority of illegal drugs come into this country through our ports, not over any border. 
 

5. I should not have called you a liar and I apologize for that. Quite obviously you believe this nonsense. But it IS nonsense. All of it. You would be well served by turning away from whatever hateful, nativist sources you’re currently reading (I would suspect FAIR) and try ones a little more objective. 

 

[timschochet]

Why are you engaging it.

It’s a fair question. 
i think because too many people agree with him. Perhaps not his vitriol, but the essence of what he’s arguing. Far far too many people have a twisted, false view of this entire subject IMO

 

[Alex P Keaton]

It’s a fair question. 
i think because too many people agree with him. Perhaps not his vitriol, but the essence of what he’s arguing. Far far too many people have a twisted, false view of this entire subject IMO

Well.  Sure.  Agreed.  Have you seen any evidence that engaging in this debate will lead to said poster changing his views?   Me neither.

 

[timschochet]

Well.  Sure.  Agreed.  Have you seen any evidence that engaging in this debate will lead to said poster changing his views?   Me neither.

No of course not. But a lot more people read my responses to him than him alone. 

 

[crackattack]

If a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it........ What became of this? Anything? 

 

[timschochet]

If a tree falls and nobody is around to hear it........ What became of this? Anything? 

Unfortunately not. The news was dominated by other events. But even if it had been a prominent news story would it have changed anyone’s minds? I doubt it. Those opposed to undocumented immigrants being given a path to   Citizenship have gotten louder and louder and are winning, sadly, 

 

[crackattack]

Unfortunately not. The news was dominated by other events. But even if it had been a prominent news story would it have changed anyone’s minds? I doubt it. Those opposed to undocumented immigrants being given a path to   Citizenship have gotten louder and louder and are winning, sadly, 

It's not sad. I'm all for immigration. Legal Immigration! Why are liberals so opposed to our laws? We can fix immigration laws and ease a path to citizenship, but until we do, you have to follow the law. Imo liberals/dems don't want to follow the law. 

Side rant. AOC and her types are selling shirts that say abolish ICE. Does she not understand that ICE does more than immigration? They do drug raids, break up human smuggling etc etc. She's a loser whom caters to the extremes. It's a losing message.

 

[MAC_32]

No of course not. But a lot more people read my responses to him than him alone. 

Fwiw I usually keep scrolling past those engaging in dialogue with it. I actually did with this one too. I just doubled back because of what radiohead wrote.

 

[timschochet]

It's not sad. I'm all for immigration. Legal Immigration! Why are liberals so opposed to our laws? We can fix immigration laws and ease a path to citizenship, but until we do, you have to follow the law. Imo liberals/dems don't want to follow the law. 

Side rant. AOC and her types are selling shirts that say abolish ICE. Does she not understand that ICE does more than immigration? They do drug raids, break up human smuggling etc etc. She's a loser whom caters to the extremes. It's a losing message.

You’re absolutely correct about AOC. Abolishing ICE, like defunding the police, is a terrible message. If I were a Republican strategist I would pay AOC to spread that message. 
 

As for the rest- there are 15 million undocumented immigrants in this country. Are they to remain in the shadows for the rest of our lives? That doesn’t serve us at all. Let’s give them legal status and a path to citizenship. Yes they broke our laws (misdemeanors) coming here. So fine them. Make a rule that it will take 20 years of good behavior to become a citizen and if they commit a felony they get deported. Make it so they can’t ever vote in their lifetime. I’m good with all of that. BUT GIVE THEM LEGAL STATUS. I don’t understand why so many otherwise thoughtful people are opposed to this. 

 

[SoBeDad]

You’re absolutely correct about AOC. Abolishing ICE, like defunding the police, is a terrible message. If I were a Republican strategist I would pay AOC to spread that message. 
 

As for the rest- there are 15 million undocumented immigrants in this country. Are they to remain in the shadows for the rest of our lives? That doesn’t serve us at all. Let’s give them legal status and a path to citizenship. Yes they broke our laws (misdemeanors) coming here. So fine them. Make a rule that it will take 20 years of good behavior to become a citizen and if they commit a felony they get deported. Make it so they can’t ever vote in their lifetime. I’m good with all of that. BUT GIVE THEM LEGAL STATUS. I don’t understand why so many otherwise thoughtful people are opposed to this. 

Republicans, including Rubio who is in favor of giving legal status to most undocumented immigrants at some point, want to secure the border first. Any chance of that happening to their satisfaction in the near future?

 

[timschochet]

Republicans, including Rubio who is in favor of giving legal status to most undocumented immigrants at some point, want to secure the border first. Any chance of that happening to their satisfaction in the near future?

Around 10 years ago Rubio was one of the sponsors of a compromise  that secured the border in exchange for a delayed path to citizenship. Nearly every Democrat was in favor. But the Tea Party types killed it. That deal is still available if Republicans can get past the nativists in their own party. 

 

[crackattack]

You’re absolutely correct about AOC. Abolishing ICE, like defunding the police, is a terrible message. If I were a Republican strategist I would pay AOC to spread that message. 
 

As for the rest- there are 15 million undocumented immigrants in this country. Are they to remain in the shadows for the rest of our lives? That doesn’t serve us at all. Let’s give them legal status and a path to citizenship. Yes they broke our laws (misdemeanors) coming here. So fine them. Make a rule that it will take 20 years of good behavior to become a citizen and if they commit a felony they get deported. Make it so they can’t ever vote in their lifetime. I’m good with all of that. BUT GIVE THEM LEGAL STATUS. I don’t understand why so many otherwise thoughtful people are opposed to this. 

I agree with most of what you say to a point. The 15 million should be given a pathway. I'd do that today! But, will liberals crack down on illegal immigration after that?

 

[timschochet]

I agree with most of what you say to a point. The 15 million should be given a pathway. I'd do that today! But, will liberals crack down on illegal immigration after that?

I can’t answer for “liberals”. My own answer that it depends on what you mean by “crack down”. 
 

I want poor immigrants from Mexico and the rest of Latin America to have  an equal chance to come here that immigrants from other parts of the world do. I want a destitute family from El Salvador to be able to “get in line” to come here on an equal basis with immigrants from wealthier economies. When that happens I will be for completely shutting down illegal immigration. Not before. 

 

[Stealthycat]

1. No it isn’t. Most undocumented immigrants have nothing to do with human trafficking. 

2.No I’ve never argued such an ignorant statement. Americans employ undocumented immigrants for all sorts of jobs, usually on the lower end of the economic scale. They work hard to fill these jobs, often working at more than one for long hours, because they seek to advance. 

3. No I don’t know this and it’s the opposite of the truth. Most undocumented immigrants, like everyone else, seek to advance economically. They’re not imprisoned. (There are sadly exceptions to this rule but the ones who are are typically Asian and did not come here across the southern border.) 

4. The vast majority of illegal drugs come into this country through our ports, not over any border. 
 

5. I should not have called you a liar and I apologize for that. Quite obviously you believe this nonsense. But it IS nonsense. All of it. You would be well served by turning away from whatever hateful, nativist sources you’re currently reading (I would suspect FAIR) and try ones a little more objective. 

1.  Do you have a link that shows how most illegally here people get here? Do they use coyotes, cartels etc? If they do - then they are trafficked, meaning they are smuggled or moved in the shadows. here is an example - https://www.ky3.com/2021/08/25/feds-indict-owner-ozarks-restaurants-his-managers-hiring-undocumented-workers/

2. It is illegal to employee illegally here people isn't it?  I understand some work hard, nobody ever denied that, but illegal labor isn't protected by our labor laws and their jobs/pay can be easily used to manipulate/control. I'm surprised we disagree on that

3. Once they get here - and arrive with nothing, no skills, no education, language barrier and being here illegally .... they grab at the first job they can get and to me, they're locked into that without much recourse or arguments. 

"Our laws are designed to lure undocumented workers into the country with the prospect of loosely regulated employment (aka a job waiting for them once they arrive). These workers are then exploited while the employers are not held accountable for illegally hiring them. Once in the U.S., they are trapped, separated from their families here and abroad, taxed without representation or benefits, have no voice or vote, are criminalized, dehumanized, and exploited for economic and political gain. As if that were not enough, they are villainized and persecuted by law enforcement and civilian militias and incarcerated in for-profit detention facilities."

I think that the above is true - https://thehill.com/changing-america/opinion/511669-modern-day-slavery-how-immigration-laws-lure-and-trap-undocumented

4. https://drugabuse.com/featured/drug-trafficking-across-borders/

do you have a link that shows otherwise? 

5. if its non sense, show me. 

I know we see it vastly different. I call it how I see it - a humanitarian crisis that leads to thousands dead, illegal drug trade, human trafficking and exploited labor. I will never support that - it can be stopped simply by sealing the southern border. 

 

[Stealthycat]

I can’t answer for “liberals”. My own answer that it depends on what you mean by “crack down”. 
 

I want poor immigrants from Mexico and the rest of Latin America to have  an equal chance to come here that immigrants from other parts of the world do. I want a destitute family from El Salvador to be able to “get in line” to come here on an equal basis with immigrants from wealthier economies. When that happens I will be for completely shutting down illegal immigration. Not before. 

do you want that for every poor/destitute family in the world? the USA is the most generous nation in the world with allowing immigration right now, a nation simply cannot open borders to anyone and everyone IMO