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A whole lot of tears when teams come to Skydome (1 Viewer)

Cliff Clavin

Footballguy
:cry: :cry: :cry:
"Not too easy, is it?"From the visitors bullpen at Rogers Centre in Toronto, an American League pitcher screamed at Blue Jays right fielder Jose Bautista as he took his position late in a game in the spring of 2010."It's not too [f------] easy to hit home runs when you don't know what's coming!"The enraged player and his teammates could hardly believe what they had seen in the previous inning. As they sat on the perch above the right-field bullpen at Rogers, they caught sight of a man dressed in white about 25 yards to their right, out among the blue center-field seats. And while the players watched, the man in white seemingly signaled the pitches the visiting pitcher was throwing against the Jays, according to four sources in the bullpen that day.The players weren't exactly sure how the man in white knew what was coming -- maybe, they thought, he was receiving messages via his Bluetooth from an ally elsewhere in the stadium who had binoculars or access to the stadium feed. But they quickly picked up the wavelength of his transmissions: He was raising his arms over his head for curveballs, sliders and changeups. In other words, anything besides fastballs.Baseball Prospectus/ESPNToronto's home run rate on contact was 5.4 percent at home in 2010, meaning Rogers Centre boosted the Jays' rate by 1.8 percentage points, or about 50 percent. Their opponents' rate was 0.2 percentage points less than at a neutral park.A few of the players in the bullpen turned their backs to the field to fixate on the man in white, while others watched the stadium's radar gun. As soon as each pitch was thrown, those watching the man would call out what they thought he was signaling, and those focused on the radar gun would confirm his signal. Sure enough, the man in white was raising his arms above his head before every off-speed pitch and doing nothing when the pitch being called was a fastball.Some guys on that team had actually seen the same man making the same motions in 2009. But that had been in the last series of the season against Toronto, and they let it go. Now, stunned not only that the man in white was back but that he was accurately calling every pitch, a call was made to the dugout, and the coaching staff was given the following message: Start using multiple signs, even with no one on base.When Bautista next came up to bat, he struck out. After the inning, he ran to right field, adjacent to the visitors 'pen, and the livid player issued Bautista a warning."We know what you're doing," he said, referring to the man in white, according to the player and two witnesses. "If you do it again, I'm going to hit you in the [f------] head."When asked in September 2010 about the confrontation, Bautista confirmed that he and the player had exchanged words. But he denied that their argument had been about signals relayed from the stands and denied getting outside help to steal signs."First of all, I don't even know how you can do that," Bautista said. "And second of all, it's obviously something that's not legal in the game. We do not cheat."The inning after the incident, however, the relays stopped, and the man in white left his seat.Claus Andersen/Getty ImagesJose Bautista acknowledges a verbal confrontation with an opposing pitcher in 2010.The next day, the players who had seen the man in white headed to the field early. One stood in the batter's box while another stood on the mound. From the batter's box, it was clear the man in white had been perfectly positioned just above the pitcher's head so that the batter would not need to move his own head, or even alter his gaze, in order to see his signal. "It's premeditated," said one of the AL players, "as if the guy was a sniper trying to find the best position to make a shot."When Yankees manager Joe Girardi suggested the Blue Jays were illicitly stealing signs in mid-July, it was not the first time ESPN had heard such an allegation. In the summer of 2010, one of our reporters interviewed several players about allegations of sign-stealing from the outfield seats at Rogers Centre. Then in January, Colin Wyers, a contributor to ESPN Insider who writes for Baseball Prospectus, provided independent analysis that showed statistical deviations in Toronto's hitting stats that he considered too great to be random chance. (Wyers was unaware of the ESPN reporter's information.)As ESPN began investigating the sign-stealing allegations, the charges also started to gain momentum in the mainstream media. Last September, Yankees broadcaster Michael Kay noted that catcher Jorge Posada was throwing down multiple signs with nobody on base against the Jays and even mentioned the possibility that someone in the outfield stands could be relaying signs.Similarly, in a June game in Toronto, Red Sox catcher Jarrod Saltalamacchia started mixing up signs to pitcher Clay Buchholz even when the Blue Jays didn't have men on base, and Sox broadcaster Jerry Remy mentioned it on the air. On July 14, Yankees catcher Russell Martin said he thought Toronto was stealing signs from second base.The next day, when asked by reporters if the Blue Jays were getting signs from outside the field of play, Girardi went a step further, saying, "Could be. Obviously, if you feel like it's coming from somewhere else besides a player on the field, yeah, I do have issues with that." Girardi told the media the Yankees would use multiple signs at Rogers Centre, even with the bases empty, just as Posada had done the year before.Toronto GM Alex Anthopoulos denies that his team has relayed signs from beyond the field of play. "That never happened, will never happen, not even a possibility," he told The Mag. "If it did happen, we'd be winning a lot more games at home … I think it's a nonstory because no one ever has picked up the phone and called me about it. It's never been an issue, and I would expect them to do so if it was."An MLB spokesman said "Major League Baseball has never received a complaint from any club about sign stealing in Toronto, and this is first [we've been] made aware of it."On Wednesday, Blue Jays catcher J.P. Arencibia criticized ESPN on Twitter, saying: "I'm hitting 200 and we get signs at home, that makes sense #clowns". He Tweeted a couple of minutes later: "Teams/pitchers need to accept when we kick their [a--] in the rogers centre n not give excuses … Looks like we had verlanders signs #nohitter".Stealing signs is as old as signal-calling itself. In 1876, the very first year of the National League, opponents of the Hartford Dark Blues claimed the club was somehow using a shack hung off a telegraph pole outside its home park to relay signals. Decades after the Giants stormed back to win the memorable 1951 NL pennant race, backup catcher Sal Yvars revealed that the team had deployed a clubhouse telescope, an electrician and a buzzer to pass stolen signs to its batters. Just last year, after the Rockies spotted a Phillies bullpen coach using binoculars, Colorado accused Philadelphia of stealing signs. Bud Selig downplayed the controversy, saying, "Stealing signs has been around for 100 years," before letting the Phillies off with a reprimand.[+] EnlargeMichael Zagaris/Oakland Athletics/Getty ImagesYankees manager Joe Girardi told the media the Yankees use multiple signs at Rogers Centre, even with the bases empty.Baseball's unwritten rules have held that traditional sign-stealing, in which a runner on second base picks up signals or hitters or coaches spot tendencies by pitchers and catchers, is fine if you can get away with it but that getting help from outside the white lines is out of bounds. Typically, players are loath to discuss the subject. For one thing, nobody wants to be a rat. And some guys think, If we've been hurt by another team stealing signs, why speak up? Wouldn't it be better to allow our divisional rivals to suffer the same fate?And then there's the argument that it's unfair to judge a team by anything other than what happens on the field. "If we win games, I give credit to the players," Anthopoulos said. "If we go into another city and get beat, it's just reality. I'm going to tip my cap and realize we're not going to go 162-0. I'm going to give credit to the other team, and I expect other teams to do the same thing with us."Nonetheless, four players have confirmed they witnessed Toronto hitters being relayed signs from the Rogers Centre stands."I wouldn't have believed it unless I saw it myself," said one of those witnesses. Another of the players was so bothered by what he saw last year that he sent a text message to Yankees outfielder Curtis Granderson, telling him to look out for someone at Rogers Centre relaying signs. Granderson recently confirmed that he received that text and says he was looking from the bench during one game when he was serving as DH. "From where I was sitting in the dugout, 300, 400 feet away, I couldn't see anything," he said.So what can we see from the numbers? Statistically, the Blue Jays look like a team swinging out of their cleats at Rogers, with an unusual home-field advantage in hitting home runs.Homer havenIn 2010, the Jays swung at 48.9 percent of pitches, the highest rate in baseball. They hit just .269 on balls in play, the lowest in baseball by 12 points. However, they led the majors with 257 home runs, 46 more than the next-highest squad. In fact, the 2010 Jays had the highest isolated power (slugging percentage minus batting average) of any team since 1954. That's what enabled Toronto to score 755 runs (ninth best in MLB) despite an abysmal team on-base percentage of .312 (fifth worst).A huge proportion of the Jays' power comes from their home ballpark. In 2010, Toronto blasted a whopping 146 homers at Rogers Centre, just seven homers shy of the all-time home record set by the Rangers in 2005.Double identitiesSeveral Jays had extreme splits in 2010. Bautista, for example, had a 1.118 OPS (on-base plus slugging) with 33 homers at home but an .879 OPS and 21 dingers on the road. First baseman Adam Lind had a .759 OPS with 15 homers in Toronto but a .660 OPS with eight bombs on the road. Second baseman Aaron Hill? His home-road OPS split was .730-.605. Shortstop Yunel Escobar was traded from Atlanta to Toronto in July 2010, and he has an .865 OPS at Rogers as a Jay but a .683 mark on the road. And then there's Vernon Wells. The outfielder had a .990 OPS and 21 home runs in Toronto last season but crashed to .699 with 10 jacks away from Rogers Centre. This past winter he was traded to the Angels and has a .552 OPS in Halos home games.Tuning out the noiseNow, by themselves, the above splits aren't conclusive, so to measure the effect of Rogers Centre more precisely, The Mag consulted with Wyers. He has developed a method that generates park factors by comparing a player's performance in any given park with his performance in all other parks, not just in road games for that player. This reduces statistical noise and offers a better estimate of how a park actually plays in a given season. Wyers found that for every ball that batters made contact with in 2010, Rogers added .011 home runs, up from a rate of just .002 from 2005 to 2009. That puts Rogers Centre in 2010 among the top 3 percent of home run ballparks since 1950.But only the Blue Jays, and not their opponents, got a home run boost in Toronto. When the Jays were on the road in 2010, they hit home runs in 4 percent of plate appearances in which they made contact, compared with an AL average of 3.6 percent. At Rogers, their home run on contact rate soared to 5.4 percent, which is a home-field advantage seven times the magnitude teams typically enjoy.Opposing batters, however, actually homered on contact at a below-average rate in Toronto. As a result, the power differential between home and visiting hitters at Rogers in 2010 was the third largest of any park in any season over the past 60 years (see chart).By themselves, these numbers are circumstantial evidence. Unsupported by data, the four players' accounts might describe a scheme of uncertain impact. And without proper context, the Yankees' decision to mask their signs could be chalked up to paranoia. But together, the numbers, the stories and the actions indicate one certainty: Every pitch to a Blue Jay in Toronto is worth watching.
 
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Yeah, I don't get that either. Facts are facts. The Jays' power numbers increase tremendously at home. The rest of the league's power numbers take a slight hit in Toronto. There's a significant amount of data at this point, enough that we can say it's not just variance. There has to be an explanation. If it's not stealing signs, then what? The Jays' pitching? I don't think so, given the fact that they're the fourth-worst team in the AL in homers allowed.
 
Yeah, I don't get that either. Facts are facts. The Jays' power numbers increase tremendously at home. The rest of the league's power numbers take a slight hit in Toronto. There's a significant amount of data at this point, enough that we can say it's not just variance. There has to be an explanation. If it's not stealing signs, then what? The Jays' pitching? I don't think so, given the fact that they're the fourth-worst team in the AL in homers allowed.
I expect a little better from you.
 
Yeah, I don't get that either. Facts are facts. The Jays' power numbers increase tremendously at home. The rest of the league's power numbers take a slight hit in Toronto. There's a significant amount of data at this point, enough that we can say it's not just variance. There has to be an explanation. If it's not stealing signs, then what? The Jays' pitching? I don't think so, given the fact that they're the fourth-worst team in the AL in homers allowed.
I expect a little better from you.
Sorry to disappoint.I don't necessarily love the stat work ESPN did and I wish they'd done a little closer study of recent history, but the home/road HR rate of the Jays vs. the home/road HR rate of their opponents is pretty glaring. I don't know if they're stealing signs, but it raises the eyebrows. I'd love to hear a real stat guy do a much better analysis and tell us whether it could just be normal variance. Also, whether there's any other data out there contradicting it (for example any Jays players with home/road splits that are neutral or road-friendly).
 
Yeah, I don't get that either. Facts are facts. The Jays' power numbers increase tremendously at home. The rest of the league's power numbers take a slight hit in Toronto. There's a significant amount of data at this point, enough that we can say it's not just variance. There has to be an explanation. If it's not stealing signs, then what? The Jays' pitching? I don't think so, given the fact that they're the fourth-worst team in the AL in homers allowed.
I expect a little better from you.
Sorry to disappoint.I don't necessarily love the stat work ESPN did and I wish they'd done a little closer study of recent history, but the home/road HR rate of the Jays vs. the home/road HR rate of their opponents is pretty glaring. I don't know if they're stealing signs, but it raises the eyebrows. I'd love to hear a real stat guy do a much better analysis and tell us whether it could just be normal variance. Also, whether there's any other data out there contradicting it (for example any Jays players with home/road splits that are neutral or road-friendly).
Two of their examples (Lind and Bautista) have both hit more HRs on the road this year.http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2011/08/10/on-false-evidence

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/stealing_signs_in_toronto/

In 2011, so far, Toronto batters’ OPS is 69 points higher at home. Their opponents are 47 points higher at Rogers. Since the typical home field advantage is about 30 or 40 points, seeing a 23 point advantage for Toronto batters over their opponents actually works against the theory, but in reality, it’s well within random chance.

How about 2010? Toronto batters had a 64 points advantage at home, while their opposing batters are 3 points under, giving a whopping 67 point differential (compared to the standard 30-40). Is that a big deal though? That’s about a 15 point wOBA advantage on 3000 PA. One standard deviation would be 9 points, so we’re talking under two SD. By itself, maybe there’s something to it. Maybe. But couple it with 2011, and there’s nothing there.
If we take a look at ISO home and away splits on a team by team basis we learn that Toronto has the highest rate at home and the second highest on the road. However, both the Rockies in the thin air of Colorado and the White Sox in Chicago have a larger positive difference in home and away splits than Toronto. In fact, the Blue Jays’ biggest accuser of fishy business, the New York Yankees, have a .046 difference in ISO between home and away, while the obvious cheats in Toronto have a .047 difference in ISO for the 2010 season.

The difference between home and away splits among the top five teams at home in terms of ISO:

Toronto Blue Jays, +.047

Colorado Rockies, +.074

New York Yankees, +.046

Arizona Diamondbacks, +.037

Chicago White Sox, +.056
 
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Yeah, I don't get that either. Facts are facts. The Jays' power numbers increase tremendously at home. The rest of the league's power numbers take a slight hit in Toronto. There's a significant amount of data at this point, enough that we can say it's not just variance. There has to be an explanation. If it's not stealing signs, then what? The Jays' pitching? I don't think so, given the fact that they're the fourth-worst team in the AL in homers allowed.
I expect a little better from you.
Sorry to disappoint.I don't necessarily love the stat work ESPN did and I wish they'd done a little closer study of recent history, but the home/road HR rate of the Jays vs. the home/road HR rate of their opponents is pretty glaring. I don't know if they're stealing signs, but it raises the eyebrows. I'd love to hear a real stat guy do a much better analysis and tell us whether it could just be normal variance. Also, whether there's any other data out there contradicting it (for example any Jays players with home/road splits that are neutral or road-friendly).
Two of their examples (Lind and Bautista) have both hit more HRs on the road this year.http://blogs.thescore.com/mlb/2011/08/10/on-false-evidence

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/article/stealing_signs_in_toronto/

In 2011, so far, Toronto batters’ OPS is 69 points higher at home. Their opponents are 47 points higher at Rogers. Since the typical home field advantage is about 30 or 40 points, seeing a 23 point advantage for Toronto batters over their opponents actually works against the theory, but in reality, it’s well within random chance.

How about 2010? Toronto batters had a 64 points advantage at home, while their opposing batters are 3 points under, giving a whopping 67 point differential (compared to the standard 30-40). Is that a big deal though? That’s about a 15 point wOBA advantage on 3000 PA. One standard deviation would be 9 points, so we’re talking under two SD. By itself, maybe there’s something to it. Maybe. But couple it with 2011, and there’s nothing there.
If we take a look at ISO home and away splits on a team by team basis we learn that Toronto has the highest rate at home and the second highest on the road. However, both the Rockies in the thin air of Colorado and the White Sox in Chicago have a larger positive difference in home and away splits than Toronto. In fact, the Blue Jays’ biggest accuser of fishy business, the New York Yankees, have a .046 difference in ISO between home and away, while the obvious cheats in Toronto have a .047 difference in ISO for the 2010 season.

The difference between home and away splits among the top five teams at home in terms of ISO:

Toronto Blue Jays, +.047

Colorado Rockies, +.074

New York Yankees, +.046

Arizona Diamondbacks, +.037

Chicago White Sox, +.056
I was just coming here to post the tangotiger article.Internet stat dorks- as reliable as the sun rising in the east.

 
I was just coming here to post the tangotiger article.Internet stat dorks- as reliable as the sun rising in the east.
Yup. Not a very well thought out article. ESPN writers (or any major sports site) should realize by now that if you're going to try and base your argument on statistics, you better be damn good cause there are tons of stat nerds out there waiting to tear them apart.Arendibia on twitter:Just read the dumbest article on ESPN about us getting signs? I'm hitting 200 and we get signs at home, that makes sense?Teams/pitchers need to accept when we kick their ### in the rogers centre n not give excuses... Looks like we had verlanders signs #nohitterWhat's next? Man on CN Tower edge walk was seen relaying signs to bluejay hitters.
 
I was just coming here to post the tangotiger article.Internet stat dorks- as reliable as the sun rising in the east.
Yup. Not a very well thought out article. ESPN writers (or any major sports site) should realize by now that if you're going to try and base your argument on statistics, you better be damn good cause there are tons of stat nerds out there waiting to tear them apart.Arendibia on twitter:Just read the dumbest article on ESPN about us getting signs? I'm hitting 200 and we get signs at home, that makes sense?Teams/pitchers need to accept when we kick their ### in the rogers centre n not give excuses... Looks like we had verlanders signs #nohitterWhat's next? Man on CN Tower edge walk was seen relaying signs to bluejay hitters.
Another issue I have in retrospect is the idea that a guy could be relaying signals to batters using some sort of semaphore type deal, but there's no photo or video evidence. These days if some blond bimbo at a stadium holds a digital camera backwards it's all over the internet, but someone doing that throughout the course of the game isn't captured in photo or video? I find that hard to believe.
 
Two of their examples (Lind and Bautista) have both hit more HRs on the road this year.
I thought the sign stealing in question happened in 2010?
Why would they stop if it worked so well?
:shrug:I thought the point was that they got caught, that's why.You sure do seem worked up over this.
How have they been caught? I'm not exactly worked up over this but I'll play along. I just find it interesting that ESPN would produce such a piece of garbage (I know, I know, they produce a lot of garbage) without getting their #### together. They had 4 relievers telling them this last year in private. Why not go to the stadium with a video camera? I mean, it was a guy in a white shirt in center field. It wouldn't be that had to pick him out especially since about 5 people sit there throughout the year. Instead, it seems like they had a quick look over some stats and determined it must be correct. And sadly, they had this information for almost a year and the best they could do was an article that was be rebuffed in less than a day.
 
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Another issue I have in retrospect is the idea that a guy could be relaying signals to batters using some sort of semaphore type deal, but there's no photo or video evidence. These days if some blond bimbo at a stadium holds a digital camera backwards it's all over the internet, but someone doing that throughout the course of the game isn't captured in photo or video? I find that hard to believe.
Agreed. How hard could it have been to get video evidence of the guy in the white shirt?
Let's say they are stealing signs. So what?
From a player at second? Nothing wrong with that. Watching the Jays this year, they give the location of the pitch to the hitter from 2nd if the catcher sets up too early.Stealing signs with outside help/equipment? Awful.
 
I agree it's a bushleague move if they were doing it (I don't believe they were). But opposing catchers just mix up the signals and the problem is over.

I agree with you both - if it were so obvious somebody would have captured some evidence. It's that obvious and not one person got some pictures? :rolleyes:

 
I agree it's a bushleague move if they were doing it (I don't believe they were). But opposing catchers just mix up the signals and the problem is over.

I agree with you both - if it were so obvious somebody would have captured some evidence. It's that obvious and not one person got some pictures? :rolleyes:
Apparently this is the game in question: http://stealofhome.wordpress.com/2011/08/10/blue-jays-caught-stealing-signs-but-by-whom/
Looks like a load of crap. Another bs story from ESPN. :thumbdown:
 
'Cliff Clavin said:
'TobiasFunke said:
Another issue I have in retrospect is the idea that a guy could be relaying signals to batters using some sort of semaphore type deal, but there's no photo or video evidence. These days if some blond bimbo at a stadium holds a digital camera backwards it's all over the internet, but someone doing that throughout the course of the game isn't captured in photo or video? I find that hard to believe.
Agreed. How hard could it have been to get video evidence of the guy in the white shirt?
This is the ridiculous part. They videotape every second of every game from dozens of camera angles, if there's a guy in a white shirt out there relaying signs, he should be incredibly easy to find.
 
Girardi made some veiled allegations about this last month. Where there is smoke, there's fire but only a yahoo would think they didn't do this

 
'Smack Tripper said:
'wadegarrett said:
Wouldn't there be at least one former BJ player who would out the club if this was the case?
If only there was a prominent blue jay on the white sox *cough*rios*cough*
:goodposting: .100 OPS drop when he went from the Jays to the Whiners. Rios needs those signs.
 
'Smack Tripper said:
'wadegarrett said:
Wouldn't there be at least one former BJ player who would out the club if this was the case?
If only there was a prominent blue jay on the white sox *cough*rios*cough*
Former Blue Jay Alex Rios said he was unaware of any sign-stealing system during his time in Toronto.

"I never heard of anything," Rios said. "I just heard of people accusing us (of) stealing signs, but I never experienced it."
linkanyone else?

 
'Smack Tripper said:
'wadegarrett said:
Wouldn't there be at least one former BJ player who would out the club if this was the case?
If only there was a prominent blue jay on the white sox *cough*rios*cough*
Former Blue Jay Alex Rios said he was unaware of any sign-stealing system during his time in Toronto.

"I never heard of anything," Rios said. "I just heard of people accusing us (of) stealing signs, but I never experienced it."
linkanyone else?
I'm having some fun with the jays but if you made me bet, I'd bet the farm they were doing this. In their true defense, they weren't thr first, won't be the last and probably weren't alone while doing it. But that said, have you ever heard a player publically accuse an ex-teammate or organization, in almost any sport, of cheating? Sign stealing, corked bats, scuffed balls, roids? The two guys that spring to mind as far as saying things they shouldn't have said are Bouton and Canseco and both are or were ostrichcized from the baseball community for a long time. It's just something that doesn't seem to be done.

I liken it to knowing your buddy is cheating on his chick. It might not be for you, you know it's not right but do you tell his chick? Now you might tell your friends but you don't put it on facebook. No one has to tell us these rules, they're just sort of understood.

 
I'm having some fun with the jays but if you made me bet, I'd bet the farm they were doing this.
Help me understand how this works then please.1) The Man in White could not see the sign from the catcher in the center field seats.2) He would have to get the sign from someone watching on video/binoculars/etc.3) The guy watching would have to relay this sign to the Man in White (cell phone with bluetooth maybe?)4) The Man in White would then have to signal the hitter.All this has to happen between the time the catcher puts down the sign and before the pitch comes... which takes about 2 seconds at most. I really don't see how this is feasible. The sign would be coming at best, when the pitcher is in mid wind up. So the hitter would be trying to focus on a guy in center field (400+ feet away) while the pitch is coming. Not sure this would be much of a help.Stealing signs from a runner on second? I should hope every team is doing this.
 
Jays players have stolen signs from 2nd base, likely including the games against the Yankees that Russell Martin refers to... really no doubt about that, but it's part of the game.

I don't think there is a man in white in the outfield sending smoke signals though, based on information he received on his bluetooth from someone somewhere else in the stadium with binoculars who picked up the signs, then put a signal up that the player 400+ feet away was able to instantly recognize and prepare for the pitch (and they supposedly did all this in what, 3 seconds from the time the signal comes down till the ball reaches the plate).

 
I'm having some fun with the jays but if you made me bet, I'd bet the farm they were doing this.
Help me understand how this works then please.1) The Man in White could not see the sign from the catcher in the center field seats. 2) He would have to get the sign from someone watching on video/binoculars/etc. 3) The guy watching would have to relay this sign to the Man in White (cell phone with bluetooth maybe?)4) The Man in White would then have to signal the hitter.All this has to happen between the time the catcher puts down the sign and before the pitch comes... which takes about 2 seconds at most. I really don't see how this is feasible. The sign would be coming at best, when the pitcher is in mid wind up. So the hitter would be trying to focus on a guy in center field (400+ feet away) while the pitch is coming. Not sure this would be much of a help.Stealing signs from a runner on second? I should hope every team is doing this.
What you have outlined is exactly as it may have occurred, I don't see the complication. No one is saying that they stole signs on every pitch of every AB, but for instance, the 2 second window greatly extrapolates if you have a runner on base. And frankly, I don't know if I'd risk it pitch to pitch. Maybe it comes on after a 2 strike count, when the signs do change pitcher/catcher, it takes time to break the code again. But look, from Bobby Thompson, to the supposed red light/white light on the Astrodome jumbotron for fastball-curveball, to the "whistler" at oakland alameda county colisseum who would whistle on all off-speed stuff, there is a myriad of ways to pass this information. And certain hitters will tell you they don't want to know. I'd imagine after a while if you signal for enough curve balls and then buzz the tower, you'll have guys stop leaning just in case. But yeah, I think there are plenty of ways to make it happen when its all said and done. Do you think two opposing teams are totally dreaming this situation up?
 
What you have outlined is exactly as it may have occurred, I don't see the complication. No one is saying that they stole signs on every pitch of every AB, but for instance, the 2 second window greatly extrapolates if you have a runner on base. And frankly, I don't know if I'd risk it pitch to pitch. Maybe it comes on after a 2 strike count, when the signs do change pitcher/catcher, it takes time to break the code again.

But look, from Bobby Thompson, to the supposed red light/white light on the Astrodome jumbotron for fastball-curveball, to the "whistler" at oakland alameda county colisseum who would whistle on all off-speed stuff, there is a myriad of ways to pass this information. And certain hitters will tell you they don't want to know. I'd imagine after a while if you signal for enough curve balls and then buzz the tower, you'll have guys stop leaning just in case. But yeah, I think there are plenty of ways to make it happen when its all said and done.



Do you think two opposing teams are totally dreaming this situation up?
:lmao: And to answer the bold - yes I do. People in all walks of life look for excuses rather than own up to their own shortcomings.

 
I'm having some fun with the jays but if you made me bet, I'd bet the farm they were doing this.
Help me understand how this works then please.1) The Man in White could not see the sign from the catcher in the center field seats.

2) He would have to get the sign from someone watching on video/binoculars/etc.

3) The guy watching would have to relay this sign to the Man in White (cell phone with bluetooth maybe?)

4) The Man in White would then have to signal the hitter.

All this has to happen between the time the catcher puts down the sign and before the pitch comes... which takes about 2 seconds at most. I really don't see how this is feasible. The sign would be coming at best, when the pitcher is in mid wind up. So the hitter would be trying to focus on a guy in center field (400+ feet away) while the pitch is coming. Not sure this would be much of a help.

Stealing signs from a runner on second? I should hope every team is doing this.
What you have outlined is exactly as it may have occurred, I don't see the complication. No one is saying that they stole signs on every pitch of every AB, but for instance, the 2 second window greatly extrapolates if you have a runner on base. And frankly, I don't know if I'd risk it pitch to pitch. Maybe it comes on after a 2 strike count, when the signs do change pitcher/catcher, it takes time to break the code again. But look, from Bobby Thompson, to the supposed red light/white light on the Astrodome jumbotron for fastball-curveball, to the "whistler" at oakland alameda county colisseum who would whistle on all off-speed stuff, there is a myriad of ways to pass this information. And certain hitters will tell you they don't want to know. I'd imagine after a while if you signal for enough curve balls and then buzz the tower, you'll have guys stop leaning just in case. But yeah, I think there are plenty of ways to make it happen when its all said and done.



Do you think two opposing teams are totally dreaming this situation up?
Yeah, pretty much. I'm guessing that the Jays were stealing signs with a runner on second (and must be pretty good at it) and the other teams threw a hissy fit. There are just way too many things that don't add up for it to be true.

 
What you have outlined is exactly as it may have occurred, I don't see the complication. No one is saying that they stole signs on every pitch of every AB, but for instance, the 2 second window greatly extrapolates if you have a runner on base. And frankly, I don't know if I'd risk it pitch to pitch. Maybe it comes on after a 2 strike count, when the signs do change pitcher/catcher, it takes time to break the code again.

But look, from Bobby Thompson, to the supposed red light/white light on the Astrodome jumbotron for fastball-curveball, to the "whistler" at oakland alameda county colisseum who would whistle on all off-speed stuff, there is a myriad of ways to pass this information. And certain hitters will tell you they don't want to know. I'd imagine after a while if you signal for enough curve balls and then buzz the tower, you'll have guys stop leaning just in case. But yeah, I think there are plenty of ways to make it happen when its all said and done.



Do you think two opposing teams are totally dreaming this situation up?
:lmao: And to answer the bold - yes I do. People in all walks of life look for excuses rather than own up to their own shortcomings.
Do you care to gander a guess at the dramatic home/road splits for the Jays and the home/visitor numbers in the dome?
 
I'm having some fun with the jays but if you made me bet, I'd bet the farm they were doing this.
Help me understand how this works then please.1) The Man in White could not see the sign from the catcher in the center field seats.

2) He would have to get the sign from someone watching on video/binoculars/etc.

3) The guy watching would have to relay this sign to the Man in White (cell phone with bluetooth maybe?)

4) The Man in White would then have to signal the hitter.

All this has to happen between the time the catcher puts down the sign and before the pitch comes... which takes about 2 seconds at most. I really don't see how this is feasible. The sign would be coming at best, when the pitcher is in mid wind up. So the hitter would be trying to focus on a guy in center field (400+ feet away) while the pitch is coming. Not sure this would be much of a help.

Stealing signs from a runner on second? I should hope every team is doing this.
What you have outlined is exactly as it may have occurred, I don't see the complication. No one is saying that they stole signs on every pitch of every AB, but for instance, the 2 second window greatly extrapolates if you have a runner on base. And frankly, I don't know if I'd risk it pitch to pitch. Maybe it comes on after a 2 strike count, when the signs do change pitcher/catcher, it takes time to break the code again. But look, from Bobby Thompson, to the supposed red light/white light on the Astrodome jumbotron for fastball-curveball, to the "whistler" at oakland alameda county colisseum who would whistle on all off-speed stuff, there is a myriad of ways to pass this information. And certain hitters will tell you they don't want to know. I'd imagine after a while if you signal for enough curve balls and then buzz the tower, you'll have guys stop leaning just in case. But yeah, I think there are plenty of ways to make it happen when its all said and done.



Do you think two opposing teams are totally dreaming this situation up?
Yeah, pretty much. I'm guessing that the Jays were stealing signs with a runner on second (and must be pretty good at it) and the other teams threw a hissy fit. There are just way too many things that don't add up for it to be true.
Just for the record, are you saying teams have not relayed signs to the batter by means other than a runners on base?
 
I'm having some fun with the jays but if you made me bet, I'd bet the farm they were doing this.
Help me understand how this works then please.1) The Man in White could not see the sign from the catcher in the center field seats.

2) He would have to get the sign from someone watching on video/binoculars/etc.

3) The guy watching would have to relay this sign to the Man in White (cell phone with bluetooth maybe?)

4) The Man in White would then have to signal the hitter.

All this has to happen between the time the catcher puts down the sign and before the pitch comes... which takes about 2 seconds at most. I really don't see how this is feasible. The sign would be coming at best, when the pitcher is in mid wind up. So the hitter would be trying to focus on a guy in center field (400+ feet away) while the pitch is coming. Not sure this would be much of a help.

Stealing signs from a runner on second? I should hope every team is doing this.
What you have outlined is exactly as it may have occurred, I don't see the complication. No one is saying that they stole signs on every pitch of every AB, but for instance, the 2 second window greatly extrapolates if you have a runner on base. And frankly, I don't know if I'd risk it pitch to pitch. Maybe it comes on after a 2 strike count, when the signs do change pitcher/catcher, it takes time to break the code again. But look, from Bobby Thompson, to the supposed red light/white light on the Astrodome jumbotron for fastball-curveball, to the "whistler" at oakland alameda county colisseum who would whistle on all off-speed stuff, there is a myriad of ways to pass this information. And certain hitters will tell you they don't want to know. I'd imagine after a while if you signal for enough curve balls and then buzz the tower, you'll have guys stop leaning just in case. But yeah, I think there are plenty of ways to make it happen when its all said and done.



Do you think two opposing teams are totally dreaming this situation up?
Yeah, pretty much. I'm guessing that the Jays were stealing signs with a runner on second (and must be pretty good at it) and the other teams threw a hissy fit. There are just way too many things that don't add up for it to be true.
Just for the record, are you saying teams have not relayed signs to the batter by means other than a runners on base?
I'm sure it has happened before. I'm also pretty sure it hasn't been done by a guy in center (actually more like right-center) waving his arms.
 
What you have outlined is exactly as it may have occurred, I don't see the complication. No one is saying that they stole signs on every pitch of every AB, but for instance, the 2 second window greatly extrapolates if you have a runner on base. And frankly, I don't know if I'd risk it pitch to pitch. Maybe it comes on after a 2 strike count, when the signs do change pitcher/catcher, it takes time to break the code again.

But look, from Bobby Thompson, to the supposed red light/white light on the Astrodome jumbotron for fastball-curveball, to the "whistler" at oakland alameda county colisseum who would whistle on all off-speed stuff, there is a myriad of ways to pass this information. And certain hitters will tell you they don't want to know. I'd imagine after a while if you signal for enough curve balls and then buzz the tower, you'll have guys stop leaning just in case. But yeah, I think there are plenty of ways to make it happen when its all said and done.



Do you think two opposing teams are totally dreaming this situation up?
:lmao: And to answer the bold - yes I do. People in all walks of life look for excuses rather than own up to their own shortcomings.
Do you care to gander a guess at the dramatic home/road splits for the Jays and the home/visitor numbers in the dome?
You mean the dramatic splits that were cherry picked and pretty much equal to or less then a bunch of other teams that play in a hitters park?
 
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What you have outlined is exactly as it may have occurred, I don't see the complication. No one is saying that they stole signs on every pitch of every AB, but for instance, the 2 second window greatly extrapolates if you have a runner on base. And frankly, I don't know if I'd risk it pitch to pitch. Maybe it comes on after a 2 strike count, when the signs do change pitcher/catcher, it takes time to break the code again.

But look, from Bobby Thompson, to the supposed red light/white light on the Astrodome jumbotron for fastball-curveball, to the "whistler" at oakland alameda county colisseum who would whistle on all off-speed stuff, there is a myriad of ways to pass this information. And certain hitters will tell you they don't want to know. I'd imagine after a while if you signal for enough curve balls and then buzz the tower, you'll have guys stop leaning just in case. But yeah, I think there are plenty of ways to make it happen when its all said and done.



Do you think two opposing teams are totally dreaming this situation up?
:lmao: And to answer the bold - yes I do. People in all walks of life look for excuses rather than own up to their own shortcomings.
Do you care to gander a guess at the dramatic home/road splits for the Jays and the home/visitor numbers in the dome?
Please show us these dramatic splits.
 
What you have outlined is exactly as it may have occurred, I don't see the complication. No one is saying that they stole signs on every pitch of every AB, but for instance, the 2 second window greatly extrapolates if you have a runner on base. And frankly, I don't know if I'd risk it pitch to pitch. Maybe it comes on after a 2 strike count, when the signs do change pitcher/catcher, it takes time to break the code again.

But look, from Bobby Thompson, to the supposed red light/white light on the Astrodome jumbotron for fastball-curveball, to the "whistler" at oakland alameda county colisseum who would whistle on all off-speed stuff, there is a myriad of ways to pass this information. And certain hitters will tell you they don't want to know. I'd imagine after a while if you signal for enough curve balls and then buzz the tower, you'll have guys stop leaning just in case. But yeah, I think there are plenty of ways to make it happen when its all said and done.



Do you think two opposing teams are totally dreaming this situation up?
:lmao: And to answer the bold - yes I do. People in all walks of life look for excuses rather than own up to their own shortcomings.
Do you care to gander a guess at the dramatic home/road splits for the Jays and the home/visitor numbers in the dome?
Please show us these dramatic splits.
2010 AL Average OPS- .734

Toronto Pitching Opponents OPS at home- .730

Tornoto Pitching Opponents OPS on the road - .733

Toronto Batting OPS road- .735

Toronto Batting OPS home- .799

2011 AL Average OPS - .724

Toronto Pitching Opp OPS at home-.756

Tornoto Pitching Opponents OPS on the road - .715

Toronto Batting OPS road- .710

Toronto Batting OPS home- .775

The offensive numbers for the Jays bely a clear advantage. The pitching home OPS is up through 3/4 of the season, but I would like to see where it levels off at through 81 games. They got massacred at home by a red hot Boston team to the tune of 30 runs in two days, in give-up, bullpen blowouts, and guys like Cecil were Verducci'd early in the season.

 
2010 AL Average OPS- .734

Toronto Pitching Opponents OPS at home- .730

Tornoto Pitching Opponents OPS on the road - .733

Toronto Batting OPS road- .735

Toronto Batting OPS home- .799

2011 AL Average OPS - .724

Toronto Pitching Opp OPS at home-.756

Tornoto Pitching Opponents OPS on the road - .715

Toronto Batting OPS road- .710

Toronto Batting OPS home- .775

The offensive numbers for the Jays bely a clear advantage. The pitching home OPS is up through 3/4 of the season, but I would like to see where it levels off at through 81 games. They got massacred at home by a red hot Boston team to the tune of 30 runs in two days, in give-up, bullpen blowouts, and guys like Cecil were Verducci'd early in the season.
2010 AL Average OPS- .734Yankees Batting OPS road- .742

Yankees Batting OPS home- .832

2011 AL Average OPS- .724

Yankees Batting OPS road- .770

Yankees Batting OPS home- .816

2010 AL Average OPS- .734

Rangers Batting OPS road- .716

Rangers Batting OPS home- .800

2011 AL Average OPS- .724

Rangers Batting OPS road- .720

Rangers Batting OPS home- .852

Well that settles it, Rangers and Yankees are cheaters too. Time to start looking for a Man in White in New York and Texas.

 
2010 AL Average OPS- .734

Toronto Pitching Opponents OPS at home- .730

Tornoto Pitching Opponents OPS on the road - .733

Toronto Batting OPS road- .735

Toronto Batting OPS home- .799

2011 AL Average OPS - .724

Toronto Pitching Opp OPS at home-.756

Tornoto Pitching Opponents OPS on the road - .715

Toronto Batting OPS road- .710

Toronto Batting OPS home- .775

The offensive numbers for the Jays bely a clear advantage. The pitching home OPS is up through 3/4 of the season, but I would like to see where it levels off at through 81 games. They got massacred at home by a red hot Boston team to the tune of 30 runs in two days, in give-up, bullpen blowouts, and guys like Cecil were Verducci'd early in the season.
2010 AL Average OPS- .734Yankees Batting OPS road- .742

Yankees Batting OPS home- .832

2011 AL Average OPS- .724

Yankees Batting OPS road- .770

Yankees Batting OPS home- .816

2010 AL Average OPS- .734

Rangers Batting OPS road- .716

Rangers Batting OPS home- .800

2011 AL Average OPS- .724

Rangers Batting OPS road- .720

Rangers Batting OPS home- .852

Well that settles it, Rangers and Yankees are cheaters too. Time to start looking for a Man in White in New York and Texas.
Back when the ballpark opened there were people that thought someone was signaling from the office tower in center field. It really is the perfect location to pull something off like that.
 
2010 AL Average OPS- .734

Toronto Pitching Opponents OPS at home- .730

Tornoto Pitching Opponents OPS on the road - .733

Toronto Batting OPS road- .735

Toronto Batting OPS home- .799

2011 AL Average OPS - .724

Toronto Pitching Opp OPS at home-.756

Tornoto Pitching Opponents OPS on the road - .715

Toronto Batting OPS road- .710

Toronto Batting OPS home- .775

The offensive numbers for the Jays bely a clear advantage. The pitching home OPS is up through 3/4 of the season, but I would like to see where it levels off at through 81 games. They got massacred at home by a red hot Boston team to the tune of 30 runs in two days, in give-up, bullpen blowouts, and guys like Cecil were Verducci'd early in the season.
2010 AL Average OPS- .734Yankees Batting OPS road- .742

Yankees Batting OPS home- .832

2011 AL Average OPS- .724

Yankees Batting OPS road- .770

Yankees Batting OPS home- .816

2010 AL Average OPS- .734

Rangers Batting OPS road- .716

Rangers Batting OPS home- .800

2011 AL Average OPS- .724

Rangers Batting OPS road- .720

Rangers Batting OPS home- .852

Well that settles it, Rangers and Yankees are cheaters too. Time to start looking for a Man in White in New York and Texas.
These comparisons work better when you don't cherry pick, cliffy.Yankees Pitching

2010 Opponents OPS at home .734

2010 Opponents OPS on the road .707

2011 Opponents OPS at home .705

2011 Opponents OPS on road .693

Texas Pitching

2010 Opponents OPS at home .734

2010 Opponents OPS on the road .707

2011 Opponents OPS at home .739

2011 Opponents OPS on road .663

So in both cases, apart we can see both the pitching and hitting have much higher home OPS numbers, because these are notoriously hitter friendly parks. I would look at the Jays and not see the same dominating trend in opponents hitting in the Skydome. Does it mean they cheated? No, but I think by comparison, the numbers support suspicion. I have not heard the same considerations raised in for the Rangers or Yankees.

 

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