Aaron Hernandez arrested -- Patriots Release Hernandez (1 Viewer)

[Kool-Aid Larry]

I don't see any sign of remorse from Hernandez. I hope this is a sign of he didn't do it. If he did, then man, the guy is a cold blood SOB...

I think it's a sign he doesn't mind killin' dudes, and he's trying to beat the rap

 

[DaveGrumbles]

I am not saying the cap hit will be zero. I am saying it will be based on what it would be if the Patriots released him AFTER the conviction. And I think Goodell has the power to do exactly that.

I doubt the NFL interferes at all in this. Patriots could have kept him on the roster, fined him for not showing up to training camp, terminated the contract and gone after the signing bonus when he failed to show up for the regular season. But they opted to eat the money to avoid reduce the circus around the team while this story plays out in court.

I agree with Dodds. Goodell is extremely protective of the NFL's image and if it's possible (I don't know that it is) he'll help the Patriots out.

If anything I'd say that Goodell should let the Pats pound sand on this one.

NFL teams should be doing all they can to prevent themselves from becoming NBA 2.0 with the thugs they let in their league.

A bit off topic but this stood out as horribly funny to me. NFL "prevent themselves from becoming NBA 2.0"?? You're thinking in reverse as I would think Stern should be looking at the NFL and take a hard look at trying to avoid becoming NFL 2.0.

I can rattle off at least a dozen NFL players suspected, associated, at the scene, and even convicted of murders over the last decade yet I am having a hard time coming up with NBA players that fit the same description. And I'm not even including lesser crimes or suicides, which are just short of epidemic levels of late. The NFL either is a magnet for head cases or just does a better job than other leagues of creating them.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

A bit off topic but this stood out as horribly funny to me. NFL "prevent themselves from becoming NBA 2.0"?? You're thinking in reverse as I would think Stern should be looking at the NFL and take a hard look at trying to avoid becoming NFL 2.0.

I can rattle off at least a dozen NFL players suspected, associated, at the scene, and even convicted of murders over the last decade yet I am having a hard time coming up with NBA players that fit the same description. And I'm not even including lesser crimes or suicides, which are just short of epidemic levels of late. The NFL either is a magnet for head cases or just does a better job than other leagues of creating them.

That's probably fair as my image of the NBA is from the late '90's/early '00's. It's probably not as bad as it was back then.

 

[meyerj31]

The Pats HAD to have some inside knowledge of what exactly he was being charged with prior to the release. They must have known a lot of the details because no team would release someone of his playing caliber on simply an arrest. I'm betting someone high up in the Pats organization had a chat with one of the detectives and they knew Friday morning all of the damning evidence Hernandez is facing.

 

[Bad_Mo]

On a side note..... the end of the Patriot dynasty is here.

That's funny. All hopes for a dynasty chugging along rested on an oft-injured TE?

I wouldn't dismiss Amendola or Gronk. They actually have upgraded their WRs, IMO.

 

[Bad_Mo]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

 

[moleculo]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

I'm not a full fledged Pat hater, but I will readily admit that I gained respect for the Pats in that they cut him immediately vs. letting him hang around on the roster with the intent of reclaiming cap space.

 

[jurb26]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

I'm not a Pats fan nor a hater. Their success is a detriment to my Steelers but I've always respected the organization regardless. This is another reason to do just that.

 

[Stillers Jr.]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

I'm not a Pats fan nor a hater. Their success is a detriment to my Steelers but I've always respected the organization regardless. This is another reason to do just that.

Ditto the above.

 

[Sarnoff]

Cap implications.

http://overthecap.com/patriots-release-aaron-hernandez-some-cap-related-thoughts/

From his first article on the matter, the Patriots would have had MUCH more cap flexibility by waiting for the legal proceedings to play out or for Goodell to suspend him. The outright release limits their options and narrows the cards that they can play to recoup the bonus money already paid.

Throughout his two articles he's basically saying they took a moral stance and that could hurt their cap. I'm not sure it was the right move, either, but the Pats (more than any other team) seem to have a culture of accountability and want to keep that culture in tact.

Who knows if Kraft and Goodell had spoken at length about this and there was already an agreement in place for cap relief if the Pats cut him.

Patriots should have just called a mandatory team meeting, or waited until mandatory practices started, then let him go for violating his contract for not showing up. "Oh, no bail? Not an excuse for missing the 10 AM TE film session. Goodbye."

 

[Anarchy99]

Cap implications.

http://overthecap.com/patriots-release-aaron-hernandez-some-cap-related-thoughts/

From his first article on the matter, the Patriots would have had MUCH more cap flexibility by waiting for the legal proceedings to play out or for Goodell to suspend him. The outright release limits their options and narrows the cards that they can play to recoup the bonus money already paid.

Throughout his two articles he's basically saying they took a moral stance and that could hurt their cap. I'm not sure it was the right move, either, but the Pats (more than any other team) seem to have a culture of accountability and want to keep that culture in tact.

Who knows if Kraft and Goodell had spoken at length about this and there was already an agreement in place for cap relief if the Pats cut him.

Patriots should have just called a mandatory team meeting, or waited until mandatory practices started, then let him go for violating his contract for not showing up. "Oh, no bail? Not an excuse for missing the 10 AM TE film session. Goodbye."

Likely wouldn't matter. The Pats would have to wait until he was not made available to them by a suspension of the league and even then might not be able to get much in terms of cap relief. They could have fined him for not showing up, but that doesn't mean they could cut him and not eat the cap hit and would not allow them to recover the $12.5 million signing bonus they gave him last year.

 

[Sarnoff]

Cap implications.

http://overthecap.com/patriots-release-aaron-hernandez-some-cap-related-thoughts/

From his first article on the matter, the Patriots would have had MUCH more cap flexibility by waiting for the legal proceedings to play out or for Goodell to suspend him. The outright release limits their options and narrows the cards that they can play to recoup the bonus money already paid.

Throughout his two articles he's basically saying they took a moral stance and that could hurt their cap. I'm not sure it was the right move, either, but the Pats (more than any other team) seem to have a culture of accountability and want to keep that culture in tact.

Who knows if Kraft and Goodell had spoken at length about this and there was already an agreement in place for cap relief if the Pats cut him.

Patriots should have just called a mandatory team meeting, or waited until mandatory practices started, then let him go for violating his contract for not showing up. "Oh, no bail? Not an excuse for missing the 10 AM TE film session. Goodbye."

Likely wouldn't matter. The Pats would have to wait until he was not made available to them by a suspension of the league and even then might not be able to get much in terms of cap relief. They could have fined him for not showing up, but that doesn't mean they could cut him and not eat the cap hit and would not allow them to recover the $12.5 million signing bonus they gave him last year.

What if he started missing camp, practice, and games? No NFL suspension, just failed to show up due to being behind bars. Eventually, he's in breach of contract, and they owe him $0.

 

[silentmark]

http://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/1h6euh/full_account_of_the_evidence_against_hernandez/

All of this was from his arraignment yesterday.

The charges:

• Murder
• Carrying a firearm without a license
• Possession of a large capacity firearm x2
• Possession of a firearm without and FID card x2

The evidence:

• Victim found 1/2 mile from Hernandez's home w/ numerous gunshot wounds
• 5 .45 caliber shells found at the scene, fired from a semi-auto weapon, based on the locations and distance between them.
• Victim was not robbed, had wallet, keys and phone.
• Keys were to a rental car, registered to Hernandez.
• Phone contained text messages between the victim and Hernandez, within hours of the murder.
• Victim's sister said her brother left at 2:30 AM in a silver Nissan Altima with three people inside
• Hernandez had been renting a Silver Nissan Altima
• Hernandez had known the victim for about a year, The victims girlfriend is the sister of Hernadez's Fiance
• The police went to question Hernandez, Who didn't answer the door. a squad car was placed outside. Eventually Hernandez came out, and told the cops he knew they were they and that he had been watching them on his surveillance system
• A warrant was issued to seize surveillance footage from Hernandez's home.
• hernandez had recently installed a 14 camera system with cameras inside and out.
• Upon reviewing the footage, they noticed that the first 6-8 hours of footage after the time of the murder was missing.
• at 9:02 PM Hernandez texted a friend from out of state "please make it back"
• 9:05 he texted the victim, indicating he wanted to come by and get together with him
• 9:35 he texted the same out of state friend "get your ### up here" then at 10:23 "hurry your ### up"
• The man he was texting and one other showed up at hernandez's home, seen on surveillance footage
• Shortly after they arrive, Hernandez is seen with a firearm in his home on the surveillance system says "he is upset that he can't trust anyone anymore"
• the three left Hernandez's home at 1:12 AM in the silver Nissan Altima, captured on survelliance, phone records and cell tower
• the went from Hernadez's home to route 95, headed south towards (? couldn't understand) they turned around and went north. the cell phone tower tracked their movement to a gas station off route 128
• at 2:10AM Hernandez bought Gas, Bubbalicious blue cotton candy gum, and black and milds which are used for smoking mariujana (the prosecutor seems to be mistaken about common blunt cigars but oh well)
• Next they went to the victims home, at 2:32 am Hernandez sent a text "we're here" to the victim, this is when the victims sister saw him leave with them, Hernandez was driving
• They drove back to North Attleboro, this is corroborated by some random surveillance cameras and route was determined by time and distance traveled.
• during the ride, Hernandez had a conversation with the victim indicating he was upset with him. The two had gone to a club together friday night.
• he said some things happened that night and he wasn't sure if he could trust the victim, one of them was that the victim had spoken to some people He had troubles with, and he was mad about it.
• At 3:07 AM the victim sent a text to his sister "did you see who I am with" no response he texted again at 3:11 AM "Hello?"
• at 3:19 am his sister replied "who?" at 3:22 the victim texted back "NFL" then 1 minute later "Just so you know"
• at the time of these texts, the car is seen on surveillance cameras in the area of the murder site/Hernandez's home
• Surveillance cameras show the vehicle driving down the road to the murder site at 3:23 AM
• between 3:23 and 3:27 am workers nearby hear multiple gunshots
• cameras pick up the vehicle along the route between the murder site and Hernandez's home at 3:27 and 3:28 AM.
• Hernandez's own Surveillance picks sees him arriving back home at 3:29 AM
• Police confirm it is only a 2 minute drive.
• autopsy found that all evidence was consistent with the victim being murdered where he was found. In other words, he wasn't dumped. Also consistent Time of death to the time the car was there.
• two through and through wounds to the victim's chest. Police returned to the scene and dug where the victim was, they found the bullets, indicating the victim was on the ground when he was shot. Both bullets were .45 caliber, consistent with the casings found. All fired from the same unknown gun
• at 3:30 AM Hernandez is seen with his companions in his driveway, one of whom has a gun.
• they go inside. Surveillance shows Hernandez walking around with a gun in his hand.
• all three go to the basement. Surveillance cameras shut off
• later that day, 5:30 PM Hernandez and his companions return the Nissan Altima to the rental agency, Hernandez offers the attendant Blue Bubbalicious.
• one of the side mirrors is broken on the car, footage of the vehicle earlier in the night suggest it wasn't broken when he left Boston, he tells the rental agency he didn't even notice it. The evidence being that it was broken sometime between leaving Boston and arriving back at home.
• He rents another car and returns home, companions leave.
• At the rental agency, a piece of bubbalicious and a shell casing were found, attendant threw them away. When questioned, she told investigators about it, they found it in the dumpster, Shell casing matched to the murder weapon.
• Tire impressions at the murder scene right next to the body were consistent with a front wheel drive vehicle (altima is FWD)
• Investigators checked out the rental car. Tire treads matched those at the crime scene. Dirt found on the car also matched the crime scene
• They found a .22 nearby in a search of everywhere between Hernandez's home and the murder site. Hernandez a month prior had been involved an altercation in providence Rhode island. He had someone with him who was seen to place a gun under a car. This man matches the description of one of his companions on the night of the murder.
• The gun under the car in Providence was traced to a florida gunstore. The 22 found between Hernandez's home and the murder site was from the same store.
• further search warrant of Hernandez's home ordered. They found 22 ammo, but no 22 gun. They also found a large capacity 7.62 hungarian semi auto rifle, 32 round clip fully loaded. Hernandez's prints on it, he doesn't have the correct paperwork to own it.
• Not recovered was the Black semi auto handgun seen in Hernandez's hand before and after the murder. the second individuals gun not found either.
• Hernandez's girlfriend was spoken to by police, she was cooperating until a call from hernandez telling her not to. She then stopped talking.
• the victim had defensive wounds and seemed to attempt to stop the bullets with his arms.

there also seems to be a sealed affadavit, so it looks like someone talked (especially since they know the convo with the victim in the car)

Another Man seems to have been arrested in connection with this case. Carlos Ortiz

 

[Sinn Fein]

This is the problem with too many threads on the same topic.

 

[Sarnoff]

Hernandez offers the attendant Blue Bubbalicious.

I hope the death penalty is still on the table.

 

[massraider]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

I hate the Pats, but already have a ton of respect for the organization.

I will gain respect for an organization when they do the right thing with the possibility that it won't be the best thing for the team.

Let's say Hernandez got arrested for smacking his girl. Let's say it happened three times, and all three times his girl refused to testify. In other words, it is obvious that Hernandez is a bad person, but he can still play, and play well. If the Patriots released him then, then I gain respect for them, and that's something I think few teams would do.

The Patriots had a pretty good idea what kind of charges he was facing, and knew he was arrested for murder. And not just murder, but Murder One. The team knew, when they released him, what he was being arrested for, and that he was at the very least, involved. They knew his career was over, for the forseeable future.

This was not a hard decision. This is the definition of the writing on the wall, and the Pats are distancing themselves from the stench. I am not handing out kudos for that.

 

[meyerj31]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

That's baloney.

The Pats obviously had inside knowledge of what he was being charged with on the morning of his arrest. They knew what was coming and were able to make a good PR move by releasing him right away.

You are giving a billionaire owner and organization WAY too much credit for taking a "moral" course of action.

This is the same organization that was responsible for Spygate.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

The Pats HAD to have some inside knowledge of what exactly he was being charged with prior to the release. They must have known a lot of the details because no team would release someone of his playing caliber on simply an arrest. I'm betting someone high up in the Pats organization had a chat with one of the detectives and they knew Friday morning all of the damning evidence Hernandez is facing.

it's possible, but let's bear in mind that not only is he being arrested on a murder charge, it didn't exactly drop out of the blue --- he had already openly obstructed justice in a murder investigation, which I'm sure the pats didn't care for.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

it seems the pats haters have already weighed in on that in this thread, the verdict being they shouldn't have drafted that thug in the first place.

####### pats!!

 

[meyerj31]

On a related note..... how many teams would be willing to draft a 4th rounder and get one decent rookie season plus two great seasons out of him? 2012 would have been great if not for the injury.

I'd say they recouped the value of the pick quite nicely. Most 4th rounders don't come near that kind of impact on the game. Guys that burn twice as bright for half as long are more important to the success of the game than those who never have a pro-bowl season.

I suppose in Hernandez's case it looks worse because PItta was the next player selected in the 2010 draft, but in most cases that's pretty good performance from a 4th rounder.

The next TEs after Pitta (all in the 4th or 5th) were Clay Harbor, Garret Graham, Michael Hoomanawanui, and Brody Eldridge. Do all of them combined have 10 catches in the NFL?

I would argue that Hernandez was still a great pick for the Pats.

 

[massraider]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

it seems the pats haters have already weighed in on that in this thread, the verdict being they shouldn't have drafted that thug in the first place.

####### pats!!

I don't have any problem with the Pats drafting him. 4th round, why not? Frankly, his performance has already warranted the draft selection.

Drafting character concerns with late round picks, or even early picks, I don't have a general problem with that. If a team's investigative team felt he wasn't a bad guy, no problem. I don't believe 20-year-old kids are incapable of making (multiple) mistakes, and learning from them, and being good dudes. It is a risk, and if teams are getting 2nd round talent at 4th round prices, I can understand the risk.

Part of the risk is that a guy may wind up being the bad dude some thought he was. If that is the case, and the team cuts ties with him, I really don't think a team should be commended for doing that.

Especially when the pats cut ties with him, the horse was out of the barn. His goose is cooked, barring some amazing legal shocker. The team isn't taking any risk here, they are cutting a guy who won't be available to NFL teams for the forseeable future.

 

[jurb26]

On a related note..... how many teams would be willing to draft a 4th rounder and get one decent rookie season plus two great seasons out of him? 2012 would have been great if not for the injury.

I'd say they recouped the value of the pick quite nicely. Most 4th rounders don't come near that kind of impact on the game. Guys that burn twice as bright for half as long are more important to the success of the game than those who never have a pro-bowl season.

I suppose in Hernandez's case it looks worse because PItta was the next player selected in the 2010 draft, but in most cases that's pretty good performance from a 4th rounder.

The next TEs after Pitta (all in the 4th or 5th) were Clay Harbor, Garret Graham, Michael Hoomanawanui, and Brody Eldridge. Do all of them combined have 10 catches in the NFL?

I would argue that Hernandez was still a great pick for the Pats.

Value on the pick was good... Until they signed his recent contract. Now, not so much.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

it seems the pats haters have already weighed in on that in this thread, the verdict being they shouldn't have drafted that thug in the first place.

####### pats!!

TE's drafted in 2010:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2010/draft.htm

Pitta went just one pick later (4/115) after Hernandez. I wonder what NE saw in Hern that they liked so much over Pitta and which made up for the character issues.

Garrett Graham and Clay Harbor followed in Rd. 4.

Jimmy Graham went at 3/95. Dickson and Moeaki were also gettable in Rd. 3.

Hoomanawanui went at 5/132 and oh look he's on the Pats now too.

 

[massraider]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

it seems the pats haters have already weighed in on that in this thread, the verdict being they shouldn't have drafted that thug in the first place.

####### pats!!

TE's drafted in 2010:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2010/draft.htm

Pitta went just one pick later (4/115) after Hernandez. I wonder what NE saw in Hern that they liked so much over Pitta and which made up for the character issues.

Talent.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

it seems the pats haters have already weighed in on that in this thread, the verdict being they shouldn't have drafted that thug in the first place.

####### pats!!

I don't have any problem with the Pats drafting him. 4th round, why not? Frankly, his performance has already warranted the draft selection.

Drafting character concerns with late round picks, or even early picks, I don't have a general problem with that. If a team's investigative team felt he wasn't a bad guy, no problem. I don't believe 20-year-old kids are incapable of making (multiple) mistakes, and learning from them, and being good dudes. It is a risk, and if teams are getting 2nd round talent at 4th round prices, I can understand the risk.

Part of the risk is that a guy may wind up being the bad dude some thought he was. If that is the case, and the team cuts ties with him, I really don't think a team should be commended for doing that.

Especially when the pats cut ties with him, the horse was out of the barn. His goose is cooked, barring some amazing legal shocker. The team isn't taking any risk here, they are cutting a guy who won't be available to NFL teams for the forseeable future.

It's an interesting point; they were okay with him ..... as long as we wasn't committing murder???

 

[massraider]

It's an interesting point; they were okay with him ..... as long as we wasn't committing murder???

I think that the Pats probably believed they had the organization and team leaders to take a potential problem child, and help him find the right path. Maybe call it arrogance, but there are probably examples of this very thing happening already in New England.

Not sure if the team closest to his hometown gangbanger buddies was the right spot for him to go to. Maybe Green Bay.

 

[roadkill1292]

Serious question...

How many Patriot haters would really admit that what the team just did (cutting Hernandez regardless of cap ramifications and if they could recover any of the bonuses) was the right thing and gained respect for the organization?

I'm not following this line of reasoning. What was "right" about it? It seems like a simple business decision.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

It's an interesting point; they were okay with him ..... as long as we wasn't committing murder???

I think that the Pats probably believed they had the organization and team leaders to take a potential problem child, and help him find the right path. Maybe call it arrogance, but there are probably examples of this very thing happening already in New England.

Not sure if the team closest to his hometown gangbanger buddies was the right spot for him to go to. Maybe Green Bay.

loooool I love being a pats fan

it's like their very existence trolls you guys every day

 

[massraider]

It's an interesting point; they were okay with him ..... as long as we wasn't committing murder???

I think that the Pats probably believed they had the organization and team leaders to take a potential problem child, and help him find the right path. Maybe call it arrogance, but there are probably examples of this very thing happening already in New England.

Not sure if the team closest to his hometown gangbanger buddies was the right spot for him to go to. Maybe Green Bay.

loooool I love being a pats fan

it's like their very existence trolls you guys every day

Yeah, my post was a real slam of the Patriots organization.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Shark move is to grab Ballard two weeks ago....

Shark move is to get Vereen...

X 3

I still don't get this. Vereen takes over for Woodhead. I don't see him running the football more, and I don't see him becoming a WR. What am I missing? He's still a 75-100 carry back with 40-50 receptions.

I think they change the offense some. AH is done, Gronk is a little beat up. I'm not nearly as convinced on Amendola as most seem to be. Jenkins? Dobson? Harrison? Thompkins? Come on. They run RIdley more, do some quick strike stuff to Amendola and someone else out of the slot/back field and drag Gronk across, esp in the redzone. So who is the slot/backfield/H back guy? I think it's Vereen.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Shark move is to grab Ballard two weeks ago....

Shark move is to get Vereen...

X 3

I still don't get this. Vereen takes over for Woodhead. I don't see him running the football more, and I don't see him becoming a WR. What am I missing? He's still a 75-100 carry back with 40-50 receptions.

I think they change the offense some. AH is done, Gronk is a little beat up. I'm not nearly as convinced on Amendola as most seem to be. Jenkins? Dobson? Harrison? Thompkins? Come on. They run RIdley more, do some quick strike stuff to Amendola and someone else out of the slot/back field and drag Gronk across, esp in the redzone. So who is the slot/backfield/H back guy? I think it's Vereen.

Question for David and other Pats fans (and yes, I know you're truly a Dallas fan) : I always thought of Gronk as the seam TE and AH as the drag TE. My thought is that a back injury may slow Gronk down and they may try to make him into the drag TE, with Amendola doing some quick bubble stuff and Vereen maybe hittiing the seam more now, either as a slot guy or on a wheel route out of the backfield. What is the Pats fan's take on what happens now? Do you think they continue with the same 2 TE sets and work Ballard/Sudfeld in? Are they really good enough for that? It seems like the clock is ticking on Brady/Belichick and they'd be better suited to change the scheme some than try to fit in new pieces.

 

[GroveDiesel]

People are missing some key details here. It didn't really matter when the Pats cut Hernandez because they screwed up his contract and forgot the clause that would have allowed them to void his guarantees. Since they owed the guarantees anyway and since they likely knew he was going to be charged with murder, they weren't really noble in cutting him when they did. All they did was make sure all the headlines said former Patriot instead of just Patriot TE Aaron Hernandez.

With all the info and stories that have come out since, they clearly knew he was a bad apple. They just didn't know he was rotten to the core. The Patriots have taken on quite a few major character problems over the last decade with varying levels of success. This one really bit them in the butt. They thought that just because they were the Patriots guys would just fall in line. They found out that some guys just don't care.

 

[PatsWillWin]

People are missing some key details here. It didn't really matter when the Pats cut Hernandez because they screwed up his contract and forgot the clause that would have allowed them to void his guarantees. Since they owed the guarantees anyway and since they likely knew he was going to be charged with murder, they weren't really noble in cutting him when they did. All they did was make sure all the headlines said former Patriot instead of just Patriot TE Aaron Hernandez.

With all the info and stories that have come out since, they clearly knew he was a bad apple. They just didn't know he was rotten to the core. The Patriots have taken on quite a few major character problems over the last decade with varying levels of success. This one really bit them in the butt. They thought that just because they were the Patriots guys would just fall in line. They found out that some guys just don't care.

No, you're missing something. There's language in the CBA that could've allowed the Patriots to recoup bonus money. They've technically given that right up, although I expect they'll end up getting some back anyway. They certainly aren't going to hand over any more of the guaranteed money he's supposed to get. Hernandez will be too busy/broke to sue and I doubt the NFLPA is going to want to stand up for him.

I don't think the Patriots did anything "noble," but they did make it more difficult to get some money back by cutting him. I think Kraft just decided that whatever the real dollar + cap penalty costs were, it was worth less than having every single headline read NE PATRIOTS TIGHT END AARON HERNANDEZ.

 

[Anarchy99]

Shark move is to grab Ballard two weeks ago....

Shark move is to get Vereen...

X 3

I still don't get this. Vereen takes over for Woodhead. I don't see him running the football more, and I don't see him becoming a WR. What am I missing? He's still a 75-100 carry back with 40-50 receptions.

I think they change the offense some. AH is done, Gronk is a little beat up. I'm not nearly as convinced on Amendola as most seem to be. Jenkins? Dobson? Harrison? Thompkins? Come on. They run RIdley more, do some quick strike stuff to Amendola and someone else out of the slot/back field and drag Gronk across, esp in the redzone. So who is the slot/backfield/H back guy? I think it's Vereen.

Question for David and other Pats fans (and yes, I know you're truly a Dallas fan) : I always thought of Gronk as the seam TE and AH as the drag TE. My thought is that a back injury may slow Gronk down and they may try to make him into the drag TE, with Amendola doing some quick bubble stuff and Vereen maybe hittiing the seam more now, either as a slot guy or on a wheel route out of the backfield. What is the Pats fan's take on what happens now? Do you think they continue with the same 2 TE sets and work Ballard/Sudfeld in? Are they really good enough for that? It seems like the clock is ticking on Brady/Belichick and they'd be better suited to change the scheme some than try to fit in new pieces.

Hernandez didn't line up all that much as a TE in the first place. Something like 60% of the time he lined up as a WR. Gronk doesn't have the speed to play standing up or out wide, so I don't see him switching roles (plus he is a very good blocker, so that would seem like a waste). He had back surgery before and stayed on the line, so all in all I think his role stays the same.

Ballard's game seems to be much more similar to Gronk's than Hernandez', so I am not sure if they would play 2 guys at the same time that do very similar things. Hernandez' value came from his versatility. He could line up at any or the receiver spots, TE, and any role in the backfield to make for a match up nightmare for the opposition. I don't see another player like that on the Pats roster (or anyone else available that could fill that role).

Getting back to Vereen and the argument that the Pats ran the ball so much last year. That was predicated on pretty much two things: running a zillion plays overall by using the no huddle offense and having an offense that many games moved the ball and scored almost at will. We don't know if either of those will occur again this year (or if this year they will opt to take off the clock instead of trying to snap the ball in 10-15 seconds.

If you go back through the BB and TB years, NE really didn't have years with two very productive fantasy backs. Woodhead was the closest, and his two best seasons he ranked as RB28 and RB25. Oddly enough, he scored 10% fewer fantasy points in the year he ranked 25th than the year he ranked 28th, as RB scoring was down a lot last year in the 21 or worse season end rankings.

I suppose if Ridley got hurt we might see more of Vereen, but I wonder if Bolden would be the guy to get more of Ridley's carries. That's certainly far from a sure thing.

What would be interesting is if the Pats moved Vereen to WR full time (although I see no evidence of that happening). Even if he were to get 30 receptions out of the backfield and 20 more playing outside, in 0 ppr leagues that may not be enough to make him a fantasy starter.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Shark move is to grab Ballard two weeks ago....

Shark move is to get Vereen...

X 3

I still don't get this. Vereen takes over for Woodhead. I don't see him running the football more, and I don't see him becoming a WR. What am I missing? He's still a 75-100 carry back with 40-50 receptions.

I think they change the offense some. AH is done, Gronk is a little beat up. I'm not nearly as convinced on Amendola as most seem to be. Jenkins? Dobson? Harrison? Thompkins? Come on. They run RIdley more, do some quick strike stuff to Amendola and someone else out of the slot/back field and drag Gronk across, esp in the redzone. So who is the slot/backfield/H back guy? I think it's Vereen.

Question for David and other Pats fans (and yes, I know you're truly a Dallas fan) : I always thought of Gronk as the seam TE and AH as the drag TE. My thought is that a back injury may slow Gronk down and they may try to make him into the drag TE, with Amendola doing some quick bubble stuff and Vereen maybe hittiing the seam more now, either as a slot guy or on a wheel route out of the backfield. What is the Pats fan's take on what happens now? Do you think they continue with the same 2 TE sets and work Ballard/Sudfeld in? Are they really good enough for that? It seems like the clock is ticking on Brady/Belichick and they'd be better suited to change the scheme some than try to fit in new pieces.

Hernandez didn't line up all that much as a TE in the first place. Something like 60% of the time he lined up as a WR. Gronk doesn't have the speed to play standing up or out wide, so I don't see him switching roles (plus he is a very good blocker, so that would seem like a waste). He had back surgery before and stayed on the line, so all in all I think his role stays the same.

Ballard's game seems to be much more similar to Gronk's than Hernandez', so I am not sure if they would play 2 guys at the same time that do very similar things. Hernandez' value came from his versatility. He could line up at any or the receiver spots, TE, and any role in the backfield to make for a match up nightmare for the opposition. I don't see another player like that on the Pats roster (or anyone else available that could fill that role).

Getting back to Vereen and the argument that the Pats ran the ball so much last year. That was predicated on pretty much two things: running a zillion plays overall by using the no huddle offense and having an offense that many games moved the ball and scored almost at will. We don't know if either of those will occur again this year (or if this year they will opt to take off the clock instead of trying to snap the ball in 10-15 seconds.

If you go back through the BB and TB years, NE really didn't have years with two very productive fantasy backs. Woodhead was the closest, and his two best seasons he ranked as RB28 and RB25. Oddly enough, he scored 10% fewer fantasy points in the year he ranked 25th than the year he ranked 28th, as RB scoring was down a lot last year in the 21 or worse season end rankings.

I suppose if Ridley got hurt we might see more of Vereen, but I wonder if Bolden would be the guy to get more of Ridley's carries. That's certainly far from a sure thing.

What would be interesting is if the Pats moved Vereen to WR full time (although I see no evidence of that happening). Even if he were to get 30 receptions out of the backfield and 20 more playing outside, in 0 ppr leagues that may not be enough to make him a fantasy starter.

But don't you think you they could use Vereen to "replace" Hernandez? No, he doesn't have the size to be a mismatch for the secondary that Hernandez was, but he's faster, more elusive and let's be honest, may have better hands than Hernandez. So they split him out wide some, put him in the slot some and put him in the backfield some. It would be less of a change than going to a RB heavy, grind it out offense, wouldn't it?

 

[Anarchy99]

Shark move is to grab Ballard two weeks ago....

Shark move is to get Vereen...

X 3

I still don't get this. Vereen takes over for Woodhead. I don't see him running the football more, and I don't see him becoming a WR. What am I missing? He's still a 75-100 carry back with 40-50 receptions.

I think they change the offense some. AH is done, Gronk is a little beat up. I'm not nearly as convinced on Amendola as most seem to be. Jenkins? Dobson? Harrison? Thompkins? Come on. They run RIdley more, do some quick strike stuff to Amendola and someone else out of the slot/back field and drag Gronk across, esp in the redzone. So who is the slot/backfield/H back guy? I think it's Vereen.

Question for David and other Pats fans (and yes, I know you're truly a Dallas fan) : I always thought of Gronk as the seam TE and AH as the drag TE. My thought is that a back injury may slow Gronk down and they may try to make him into the drag TE, with Amendola doing some quick bubble stuff and Vereen maybe hittiing the seam more now, either as a slot guy or on a wheel route out of the backfield. What is the Pats fan's take on what happens now? Do you think they continue with the same 2 TE sets and work Ballard/Sudfeld in? Are they really good enough for that? It seems like the clock is ticking on Brady/Belichick and they'd be better suited to change the scheme some than try to fit in new pieces.

Hernandez didn't line up all that much as a TE in the first place. Something like 60% of the time he lined up as a WR. Gronk doesn't have the speed to play standing up or out wide, so I don't see him switching roles (plus he is a very good blocker, so that would seem like a waste). He had back surgery before and stayed on the line, so all in all I think his role stays the same.

Ballard's game seems to be much more similar to Gronk's than Hernandez', so I am not sure if they would play 2 guys at the same time that do very similar things. Hernandez' value came from his versatility. He could line up at any or the receiver spots, TE, and any role in the backfield to make for a match up nightmare for the opposition. I don't see another player like that on the Pats roster (or anyone else available that could fill that role).

Getting back to Vereen and the argument that the Pats ran the ball so much last year. That was predicated on pretty much two things: running a zillion plays overall by using the no huddle offense and having an offense that many games moved the ball and scored almost at will. We don't know if either of those will occur again this year (or if this year they will opt to take off the clock instead of trying to snap the ball in 10-15 seconds.

If you go back through the BB and TB years, NE really didn't have years with two very productive fantasy backs. Woodhead was the closest, and his two best seasons he ranked as RB28 and RB25. Oddly enough, he scored 10% fewer fantasy points in the year he ranked 25th than the year he ranked 28th, as RB scoring was down a lot last year in the 21 or worse season end rankings.

I suppose if Ridley got hurt we might see more of Vereen, but I wonder if Bolden would be the guy to get more of Ridley's carries. That's certainly far from a sure thing.

What would be interesting is if the Pats moved Vereen to WR full time (although I see no evidence of that happening). Even if he were to get 30 receptions out of the backfield and 20 more playing outside, in 0 ppr leagues that may not be enough to make him a fantasy starter.

But don't you think you they could use Vereen to "replace" Hernandez? No, he doesn't have the size to be a mismatch for the secondary that Hernandez was, but he's faster, more elusive and let's be honest, may have better hands than Hernandez. So they split him out wide some, put him in the slot some and put him in the backfield some. It would be less of a change than going to a RB heavy, grind it out offense, wouldn't it?

Vereen is 5'8", 203 lbs. I think that rules him out from playing anything TE related. Sure, I guess they could move him around some . . . but fantasy wise what made AH valuable was his TE designation. I still think total yardage and TD wise, Vereen wouldn't produce much more than Woodhead. 800 yards and 5 TD is good for a TE but not as good for a RB.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Thanks for the differing point of view David. Much appreciated.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Who knows if Kraft and Goodell had spoken at length about this and there was already an agreement in place for cap relief if the Pats cut him.

The agreement would have to be between the NFLPA and the owners as a group.

I'm sure the NFLPA would be in favor of giving the Patriots cap relief. It would increase the total amount paid to players on the whole.

I doubt the other owners would be in favor of giving the Patriots cap relief, and I don't think Goodell has the authority to do so by himself. It's a matter governed by the CBA.

(If the Patriots had not released Hernandez, Goodell could have suspended him, which would have given the Patriots some relief. But now that he's no longer a Patriot, I don't think suspending him would help the Patriots.)

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Again, at the time of his release, AH was not guilty of anything. This is all that I am attempting to say (and saying very poorly, apparently). If the Patriots had waited for some sort of judgment, I would be in favor of them recouping some of the money tied up in this contract. They chose not to wait (bully for them) and now they have to eat the money. Period. They would be on very shaky legal grounds if they later attempt to wiggle out of some of their legal (contractual) obligations and responsibilities just because AH is convicted and/or suspended. The timing of this prevents them from ever recovering that money.

At the time of his release, AH was guilty of having killed a dude.

His guilt hadn't yet been proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a criminal trial, and it may never be. But any dispute between Hernandez and the Patriots will be a civil matter, where guilt has to be proven only by a preponderance of the evidence. OJ was found not guilty of criminal charges, for example, but was held liable in a civil suit. The standards of proof are different.

If I am the Patriots, I am not paying Hernandez his 2013 and 2014 salaries, or the remaining part of his signing bonus that hasn't already been paid. I'm arguing that killing a dude is a breach of his contract (specifically, a breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing, if not whatever explicit morals clause is in there). If killing a dude is a breach of his contract, I don't need a conviction, and I don't need to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. I just need to prove that he probably did it.

When I refuse to pay him, AH (with the help of the NFLPA) will file a grievance arguing that killing a dude is not a breach of his contract, especially if it did not make him unavailable to practice or play with the team. What he does or whom he kills in his spare time is his business. And since the Patriots released him before he became unavailable to practice or play with the team, the murder didn't affect his job performance during the term of his contract. Therefore, the guaranteed salary and yet-to-be-paid portion of the signing bonus are still owed.

Both sides have non-frivolous arguments. Maybe they will settle.

My point is that the issue is kind of complicated. In terms of the salary cap ramifications and their ability to withhold future payments (or recover past payments), the Patriots did not do themselves a favor by cutting Hernandez before he was suspended or before he started missing practices and games. But even with the early release, it's not a slam dunk that Hernandez will receive all of his 2013 and 2014 salaries or the portion of his signing bonus that is payable in March 2014. That's all yet to play itself out.

 

[Backside Pursuit]

Good posting Maurile.

I must say that I am not at all interested in any potential dispute between the Patriots and AH and my comments were not directed at that possibility. I am exclusively interested in the ramifications as it pertains to the Patriots and the league or, more specifically, the competitive integrity of the league. To voluntarily release a player (with a wink or a handshake from the Commish) and then subsequently attempt to gain cap relief based upon some adjudication obtained after that release would be problematic, in my opinion.

 

[Anarchy99]

Who knows if Kraft and Goodell had spoken at length about this and there was already an agreement in place for cap relief if the Pats cut him.

The agreement would have to be between the NFLPA and the owners as a group.

I'm sure the NFLPA would be in favor of giving the Patriots cap relief. It would increase the total amount paid to players on the whole.

I doubt the other owners would be in favor of giving the Patriots cap relief, and I don't think Goodell has the authority to do so by himself. It's a matter governed by the CBA.

(If the Patriots had not released Hernandez, Goodell could have suspended him, which would have given the Patriots some relief. But now that he's no longer a Patriot, I don't think suspending him would help the Patriots.)

Pats seem to be positioning themselves on the morals and code of conduct clauses in the CBA. They have already proclaimed they are not going to pay out any of the remaining

guaranteed money they were to owe AH. They seem to think they are in the right that AH essentially voided the contract by his actions and that will let NE skate.

If they can make that argument for money they still owe him (and who knows if that will fly or not), one would think they would follow that up with a similar argument that they would be due the pro rated share of his signing bonus. Given that they extended him so he would have a 7 year deal and only played in one season after the extension, in theory, the Pats would ask to recoup 6/7 of his signing bonus on the grounds he voided his contract by not complying with the section on player conduct.

At some point they may go that route. Who knows if that will be effective or not.

I also find it interesting that the news in the past 24 hours was that the Pats claimed to have no knowledge of what AH was up to, that they were in the dark like everyone else, and that they had no idea that he would be indicted on murder charges (non of which I believe). They also are said to have decided to cut AH as soon as he was linked to a murder investigation and unilaterally decided they would be releasing him if he got charged with any crime (even if just obstruction). Seemingly their rationale was that it would be a black mark against the league and the team and they wanted no part of being linked to a bad seed.

That story seems to fit with the position they are taking with AH's contract situation, and it seems to position the Pats as the innocent victim in all of this. IMO, thePats will get out of paying whatever they were supposed to still pay AH and get cap relief for that amount, but I think they are out of luck for whatever they already paid h im (and thus will not get any money back or cap relief for what was already paid).

 

[Backside Pursuit]

At the time of his release, AH was guilty of having killed a dude.

And this is simply not (yet) true, in any legal domain. Culpability and guilt are two separate concepts. Hernandez was released from his contract before any formal finding of guilt.

Your larger points remain entirely valid.

 

[PatsWillWin]

At the time of his release, AH was guilty of having killed a dude.

And this is simply not (yet) true, in any legal domain. Culpability and guilt are two separate concepts. Hernandez was released from his contract before any formal finding of guilt.

Your larger points remain entirely valid.

being guilty =! being found guilty

the word exists outside of the legal system.