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Abortion thread: (2 Viewers)

shader said:
I believe abortion is infanticide and is the killing of babies.  I hope this helps you understand my position on abortion.  I'm not going to change that opinion because you personally think it's a strawman.  

I also know most people that are pro-choice are not "advocating abortion".  I get that.
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By definition it is not infanticide :

1. the crime of killing a child within a year of birth.

 2. a person who kills an infant, especially their own child.
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It is a Strawman when you mischaracterize people who are pro-choice as advocating that position, because that's untrue and I have yet to see any one pro-choice person say "Let's kill babies" or "I am in favor of infanticide"

Misframing the argument of the other side does noting to advance any discussion on the issue and the whole point is obviously to shut down discussion, because it can't continue on any rational basis after that when you mischaracterize my position as "You want to kill babies!"

 
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shader said:
I believe abortion is infanticide and is the killing of babies.  I hope this helps you understand my position on abortion.  I'm not going to change that opinion because you personally think it's a strawman.  

I also know most people that are pro-choice are not "advocating abortion".  I get that.
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I think that, once again, the difficulty you’re going to have is primarily definitional.  I get that you personally feel that words mean something different than they actually mean, but it’s difficult to have a conversation that way. 

 
gianmarco said:
Copied from elsewhere:

If I have this right, the Republican platform on reproduction is the following:

1) No sex ed because teenagers aren't ready for it. Exception made for abstinence-only education, which has been proven over and over to be ineffective

2) If you choose to have sex you shouldn't be allowed access to birth control because you shouldn't be having sex. 

2a) If you had sex and it wasn't your choice... Well, we don't really believe in that unless it was an extreme case and even then some of us don't. Boys will be boys. Acquitted. Thank you.

3) If you get pregnant you MUST carry the baby to term

4) You can't have affordable health care, prenatal, postnatal, no natal of any kind

5) When you have the baby you can't have any maternity leave 

6) If you can't afford the baby, sorry, no welfare. And we're not raising the minimum wage either. Need to work but can't afford a babysitter? Your fault for having sex. You should have paid better attention in the abstinence-only sex ed classes that we know are ineffective

7) Taxes are evil so we're not paying for any kind of preschool development or education programs. We're not too fond of public schools either.

😎 We are pro-family
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Did that make you feel better when you read it? 

I understand that it’s emotionally satisfying to charge one’s opponents with hypocrisy, especially since it’s almost always true to a certain extent and easily provable. The problem is that when you do this you’re creating a caricature which doesn’t exist in real life. Pro-life people don’t deliberately push ideas that they know are ineffective, they push them because they believe in them. And they don’t deliberately seek to make health care unaffordable; they believe that government controlled health care makes things worse. You can argue with their ideas (I do all the time) but this sort of thing doesn’t do that; it simply impugns their motives. And it’s no different than when conservatives accuse women who have abortions of doing it lightly, out of convenience. Both sides seem determined to paint the worst possible image of the other side. I have made this point before and I suppose I’ll keep making it. We’re demonizing each other and the result will be bad for everybody. 

 
shader said:
Somebody has to be 49th.  I don’t have any idea why the state is that low, but it’s not because they don’t care about children.  Classy 
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There is an inverse correlation between infant mortality and the percent of births financed by Medicaid....but that also shows the differences in the financial situations in those states.  The lowest percent of births financed by Medicaid is in New Hampshire, and they generally have the best infant mortality figures (North Dakota as well).  On the other end of each of those spectrums are states like Alabama, Mississippi, and Arkansas. 

 
shader said:
I believe abortion is infanticide and is the killing of babies.  I hope this helps you understand my position on abortion.  I'm not going to change that opinion because you personally think it's a strawman.  

I also know most people that are pro-choice are not "advocating abortion".  I get that.
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These discussions would go better if people would refrain from assuming that other folks frame this issue the same way that they do, or that other people are operating with the same set of underlying assumptions.  Nobody on the pro-choice side finds the "baby killing" angle persuasive.  They're not in favor of killing babies either.  They just don't view the fetus as morally equivalent to a baby.  They might be wrong about that, but it's not at all the same as actively supporting infanticide.

To put it another way, if you roll your eyes every time someone frames abortion as a women's rights issue (because it implicitly assumes that there is no third party with rights that should be protected), you should also understand why folks on the other side aren't moved by arguments about baby-killing.  

 
shader said:
"There are 0 people that love killing babies".  Next page, Hey guys here is a fund where you can donate to places that kill babies.
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And again you’re creating a caricature in your mind. 

As you know, I don’t believe that abortion is “killing babies”. I want to help poor women to make reproductive choices. That’s why I posted this link and that’s why I continue to support my local Planned Parenthood with donations. 

In your mind I am helping to kill babies; but since I don’t see it the way you do, I obviously don’t “love killing babies”. Your accusation is false, and worse than that, you’re being part of the problem here. 

 
gianmarco said:
Copied from elsewhere:

If I have this right, the Republican platform on reproduction is the following:

1) No sex ed because teenagers aren't ready for it. Exception made for abstinence-only education, which has been proven over and over to be ineffective

2) If you choose to have sex you shouldn't be allowed access to birth control because you shouldn't be having sex. 

2a) If you had sex and it wasn't your choice... Well, we don't really believe in that unless it was an extreme case and even then some of us don't. Boys will be boys. Acquitted. Thank you.

3) If you get pregnant you MUST carry the baby to term

4) You can't have affordable health care, prenatal, postnatal, no natal of any kind

5) When you have the baby you can't have any maternity leave 

6) If you can't afford the baby, sorry, no welfare. And we're not raising the minimum wage either. Need to work but can't afford a babysitter? Your fault for having sex. You should have paid better attention in the abstinence-only sex ed classes that we know are ineffective

7) Taxes are evil so we're not paying for any kind of preschool development or education programs. We're not too fond of public schools either.

😎 We are pro-family
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This is trash.

Here is the actual statement from GOP.com. I'm not endorsing it, just trying to correct your inflammatory BS.

We support the right of parents to determine the proper medical treatment and therapy for their minor children. We support the right of parents to consent to medical treatment for their minor children and urge enactment of legislation that would require parental consent for their daughter to be transported across state lines for abortion. Providers should not be permitted to unilaterally withhold services because a patient’s life is deemed not worth living. American taxpayers should not be forced to fund abortion. As Democrats abandon this four decade-old bipartisan consensus, we call for codification of the Hyde Amendment and its application across the government, including Obamacare. We call for a permanent ban on federal funding and subsidies for abortion and healthcare plans that include abortion coverage.

https://gop.com/platform/renewing-american-values/

 
IvanKaramazov said:
These discussions would go better if people would refrain from assuming that other folks frame this issue the same way that they do, or that other people are operating with the same set of underlying assumptions.  Nobody on the pro-choice side finds the "baby killing" angle persuasive.  They're not in favor of killing babies either.  They just don't view the fetus as morally equivalent to a baby.  They might be wrong about that, but it's not at all the same as actively supporting infanticide.

To put it another way, if you roll your eyes every time someone frames abortion as a women's rights issue (because it implicitly assumes that there is no third party with rights that should be protected), you should also understand why folks on the other side aren't moved by arguments about baby-killing.  
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Those are great points.  The issue is, I’m not looking to win arguments or make political changes.  I’m stating what my feelings are on abortion and couldn’t care less if people agree, disagree or not.  I don’t want there to be any question as to how I feel.  Tbf I’ve probably accomplished that and can leave you guys to it.

 
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squistion said:
Figures this is your response. I have never seen anyone pro-choice advocate killing babies or infanticide.
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But if you're pro-choice, you're advocating for the right to an abortion, which is killing/terminating the baby/unborn child/embryo/fetus/whatever term you want to use.  I mean lets call it what it is.

This is a situation that I'm personally very torn on.  The libertarian in me feels that a woman should always have a choice, but the human in me (I'm not very religious) says that the choice should nearly always be life (set aside the rape/insect/woman's life in danger situations).  I believe that life starts at the successful combination of the man (sperm) and woman (egg).  Neither are a life without the other - so these dumb arguments about the "thousands of lives lost" when you JO are just that, dumb.  Once the two parts become whole, we have a life.  It's an innocent life and should be protected.  But then you get the personal situation brought up - the broken condom, the drunken evening of two teenagers....  I've always been one that has been for "personal responsibility"....someone up-thread used the term "elections have consequences".....well, so does sex.  Sorry if I'm rambling....like I said, I'm personally torn on this. 

Having said that, these R's are making it very hard to ever vote R again.

 
PhantomJB said:
This is trash.

Here is the actual statement from GOP.com. I'm not endorsing it, just trying to correct your inflammatory BS.

We support the right of parents to determine the proper medical treatment and therapy for their minor children. We support the right of parents to consent to medical treatment for their minor children and urge enactment of legislation that would require parental consent for their daughter to be transported across state lines for abortion. Providers should not be permitted to unilaterally withhold services because a patient’s life is deemed not worth living. American taxpayers should not be forced to fund abortion. As Democrats abandon this four decade-old bipartisan consensus, we call for codification of the Hyde Amendment and its application across the government, including Obamacare. We call for a permanent ban on federal funding and subsidies for abortion and healthcare plans that include abortion coverage.

https://gop.com/platform/renewing-american-values/
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You missed this portion from the platform:

We renew our call for replacing “family planning” programs for teens with sexual risk avoidance education that sets abstinence until marriage as the responsible and respected standard of behavior. That approach — the only one always effective against premarital pregnancy and sexually-transmitted disease — empowers teens to achieve optimal health outcomes. We oppose school-based clinics that provide referral or counseling for abortion and contraception and believe that federal funds should not be used in mandatory or universal mental health, psychiatric, or socio-emotional screening programs.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
If you were given a choice between states deciding the issue for themselves vs. a nationwide abortion ban, which would you rather have?
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I’d be okay with a nationwide 20-week abortion rights with no questions asked... save in incest and rape and life threatening cases. Roe getting overturned will have more repercussions then benefits. Unless we, as a nation, are going to fully, public ally, fund child care, preschool, head start, and public education. But, since I doubt those things are on the docket, then definitely not for states right when it comes to anything that may fall under civil rights. 

Put it this way. Getting rid of abortion is no where near a priority for our country. It’s not even worth discussing. 

 
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Mario Kart said:
I’d be okay with a nationwide 20-week abortion rights with no questions asked... save in incest and rape and life threatening cases. Roe getting overturned will have more repercussions then benefits. Unless we, as a nation, are going to fully, public ally, fund child care, preschool, head start, and public education. But, since I doubt those things are on the docket, then definitely not for states right when it comes to anything that may fall under civil rights. 

Put it this way. Getting rid of abortion is no where near a priority for our country. It’s not even worth discussing. 
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With provisions for circumstances that may arise after 20 weeks. All for it.

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
Be fair and give a please stop with wanting to take women's rights away then.  
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They are NOT trying to give the "unborn" any rights, just remove those from the mother.  Where is the personhood and ALL the protections therein?

In fact, they spent about 1000 times more on punishment of the mother or doctor than extending any rights to the unborn. 

 
Workhorse said:
It's even worse:  The law allows Georgia to arrest women for crossing state lines to get an abortion. This is truly Handmaid's Tale type stuff. I wish Atlanta could secede from the state.
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I was just saying the same thing about Madison county. Economically and politically, we're closer to northern Virginia than Birmingham.

 
Workhorse said:
It's even worse:  The law allows Georgia to arrest women for crossing state lines to get an abortion. This is truly Handmaid's Tale type stuff. I wish Atlanta could secede from the state.
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Is this ####### true? 

Anti-American Fanatics.  :rant:   Go back to Iran already.

 
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matttyl said:
But if you're pro-choice, you're advocating for the right to an abortion, which is killing/terminating the baby/unborn child/embryo/fetus/whatever term you want to use.  I mean lets call it what it is.

This is a situation that I'm personally very torn on.  The libertarian in me feels that a woman should always have a choice, but the human in me (I'm not very religious) says that the choice should nearly always be life (set aside the rape/insect/woman's life in danger situations).  I believe that life starts at the successful combination of the man (sperm) and woman (egg).  Neither are a life without the other - so these dumb arguments about the "thousands of lives lost" when you JO are just that, dumb.  Once the two parts become whole, we have a life.  It's an innocent life and should be protected.  But then you get the personal situation brought up - the broken condom, the drunken evening of two teenagers....  I've always been one that has been for "personal responsibility"....someone up-thread used the term "elections have consequences".....well, so does sex.  Sorry if I'm rambling....like I said, I'm personally torn on this. 

Having said that, these R's are making it very hard to ever vote R again.
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Yep. 

You're right that you're rambling, yet I feel very much the same on this subject.  Also a libertarian, live and let live, do what you want so long as you don't harm others.but here you're killing a person (I know that's a point of contention).  So, life wins out imo. 

There's a lot of talk about how crime decreased big time due to abortions, and that might be true. Maybe the quality of life increases for the survivors. But that sounds kinda like Thanos...

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Roe created a situation where one side won and the other side lost.  That's part of the problem. 

If Roe is overturned, some states will ban abortion outright, some states will restrict it, and some states will legalize it in nearly all cases.  That will take a huge amount of vitriol out of the picture, because both sides will get some wins.
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Well everyone feeling like they got a win and a participation trophy IS what's important here.

 
Mario Kart said:
I’d be okay with a nationwide 20-week abortion rights with no questions asked... save in incest and rape and life threatening cases. Roe getting overturned will have more repercussions then benefits. Unless we, as a nation, are going to fully, public ally, fund child care, preschool, head start, and public education. But, since I doubt those things are on the docket, then definitely not for states right when it comes to anything that may fall under civil rights. 

Put it this way. Getting rid of abortion is no where near a priority for our country. It’s not even worth discussing. 
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That's not what I asked.  

You said that we can't have different states enacting different policies.  I asked you if you would still feel that way if the "nationwide standard for everybody" was your least preferred policy outcome.  

 
FreeBaGeL said:
Well everyone feeling like they got a win and a participation trophy IS what's important here.
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Same question for you that I posed to Mario Kart, then.  If having one single standard for the entire country is so important to you, would you still feel that way if the whole country was forced somehow into emulating Alabama?

 
The question I would have for people like @shader that believe abortion is literally killing babies, is do you have any friends that believe abortion should be legal?  Any family members that believe as much that you haven't disowned?  When you see someone with a pro-choice bumper sticker do you beat the #### out of them when they get out of their car?

Because let's be real, no one would be friends with someone that thought killing toddlers was OK.  No one would remain in good standing with a family member that thought it was OK to stab an 8 month old through the heart with a knife.  Most would probably beat the crap out of anyone that had a bumper sticker that said we need to shoot more kids in the head.

So unless you treat pro-choice friends, family members, etc the same as someone who believes it's OK to choke a baby to death in their crib then it's disingenuous to pretend that you think abortion is just as much baby murder as those other things are.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Same question for you that I posed to Mario Kart, then.  If having one single standard for the entire country is so important to you, would you still feel that way if the whole country was forced somehow into emulating Alabama?
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Well that's really outside the point I was making, which is essentially who gives a #### about people feeling warm and fuzzy about getting a "win" in something as important as this.

Your point is fair constituationally, though you could raise the same argument about basically any federal law.  They would all suck if we federally litigated the opposite of them, but that doesn't mean we get rid of all federal laws.

 
matttyl said:
But if you're pro-choice, you're advocating for the right to an abortion, which is killing/terminating the baby/unborn child/embryo/fetus/whatever term you want to use.  I mean lets call it what it is.

This is a situation that I'm personally very torn on.  The libertarian in me feels that a woman should always have a choice, but the human in me (I'm not very religious) says that the choice should nearly always be life (set aside the rape/insect/woman's life in danger situations).  I believe that life starts at the successful combination of the man (sperm) and woman (egg).  Neither are a life without the other - so these dumb arguments about the "thousands of lives lost" when you JO are just that, dumb.  Once the two parts become whole, we have a life.  It's an innocent life and should be protected.  But then you get the personal situation brought up - the broken condom, the drunken evening of two teenagers....  I've always been one that has been for "personal responsibility"....someone up-thread used the term "elections have consequences".....well, so does sex.  Sorry if I'm rambling....like I said, I'm personally torn on this. 

Having said that, these R's are making it very hard to ever vote R again.
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But that's the WHOLE point.  There is no agreement on when life begins.  Your belief that equating a single sperm to a fertilized egg being "just dumb" is exactly the way pro-choice people feel when a few week old fertilized egg is compared to a living human being.

It's not "just dumb".  It's literally the exact same argument pro-lifers use against pro-choicers.  You just move back the starting point of life a few steps and then pretend like someone is a monster for wanting to destroy that life.  You thinking it's idiotic that someone would call you a mass murderer for ####ing off into a tissue is exactly how pro-choicers feel when someone calls them a murderer for not forcing someone to save that 0.1mm egg.

 
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I certainly didn't expect this...

Tomi Lahren‏ @TomiLahren 5h5 hours ago

I will be attacked by fellow conservatives for saying this but so be it, this Alabama abortion ban is too restrictive. It doesn’t save life, it simply forces women into more dangerous methods, other states or countries. You don’t encourage life via blanket government mandate!

 
So, anyone disagree that the Alabama law is basically step one of the Handmaid’s Tale?

How can that happen in a liberal democracy?

 
zoonation said:
How can that happen in a liberal democracy?
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How does it happen that a generally anti-abortion state passes anti-abortion legislation?  That seems pretty straightforward to me.

I'm pro-life, but I am not going to be thrown for a loop when California passes a law that makes abortion readily available.  Not everybody agrees with me on this issue.  I've argued a bunch of times that people on this forum live in a little bubble when it comes to this issue, and it's like I'm watching that bubble pop in real time as multiple states pass legislation that I've been told is politically impossible.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
How does it happen that a generally anti-abortion state passes anti-abortion legislation?  That seems pretty straightforward to me.

I'm pro-life, but I am not going to be thrown for a loop when California passes a law that makes abortion readily available.  Not everybody agrees with me on this issue.  I've argued a bunch of times that people on this forum live in a little bubble when it comes to this issue, and it's like I'm watching that bubble pop in real time as multiple states pass legislation that I've been told is politically impossible.
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It just seems to me that every other country in the liberal democratic world has moved beyond this debate.  Like 20 years ago.   

The punitive parts of the legislation is why I made the comment.  It is truly bananas.  

 
tommyGunZ said:
What about the potential lives you waste when you master-bate?  How is that act less despicable than doctors ending potential lives?  And yes, each sperm you ejaculate is a potential human life, just like a fertilized egg at 6 weeks is a potential human life.  
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Not even close to the same thing at 6 weeks. 

I read posts like this for the humor then I realize we need to put more money in our educational system and pay teachers more.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
These discussions would go better if people would refrain from assuming that other folks frame this issue the same way that they do, or that other people are operating with the same set of underlying assumptions.  Nobody on the pro-choice side finds the "baby killing" angle persuasive.  They're not in favor of killing babies either.  They just don't view the fetus as morally equivalent to a baby.  They might be wrong about that, but it's not at all the same as actively supporting infanticide.

To put it another way, if you roll your eyes every time someone frames abortion as a women's rights issue (because it implicitly assumes that there is no third party with rights that should be protected), you should also understand why folks on the other side aren't moved by arguments about baby-killing.  
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Even if there’s someone on the other side with rights it’s a women’s rights issue. It may also be an issue in other areas but if is necessarily a women’s rights issue 

 
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