Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I don’t necessarily think anyone had to report that. It was a garbage post
If you type that here and hit submit you have to assume you’re going to get a vaca, don’t you think ?
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AG Barr Has Ordered The Federal Death Penalty Reinstituted (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Henry Ford
- Start date
If you type that here and hit submit you have to assume you’re going to get a vaca, don’t you think ?
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I could very well be wrong, but I assume that with the 1000s of posts here every day to try to police, that most is missed and a majority of the banned posts are due to someone hitting the report button.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Eh, that’s fair I guess
I stand by the fact that if you type that, you should expect to get dinged
sho nuff
Footballguy
Honestly asking this...why?
It was clearly hyperbole...it was clearly not saying it was happening.
It wasn’t insulting any posters...or even name calling anyone.
So why meet that with anything other than a “don’t “ or just a “really?”
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I don’t remember if it was AOC or another female dem, but someone posted that whoever “was stupid” or something like that and Joe posted later that it got reported 10 times in 2 minutes or something crazy like that
You can’t have it both ways. If you post something like what was posted about the president you’re gonna get a timeout
I don’t make the rules
And fwiw, when I read the post being discussed here, I didn’t think it was hyperbole, not that it matters
sho nuff
Footballguy
I think it was 6 times and it was calling her stupid or an idiot. They have pretty much said calling people names will not be ok.
That isn’t having it both ways...the posts are apples to oranges.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I'll be honest - I have lost track of what gets dinged and what doesn't. I feel about the report button like some seem to feel about the ignore function.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Nah, they have enough to deal with. You were talking about it as it should be a suspendable post so i asked why. ThanksTake it up with the mods dude
rockaction
Footballguy
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
Spike
Footballguy
This has always made me shake my head.
How can you PROVE it has never deterred someone from killing someone?
NCCommish
Footballguy
We can look at studies. One such study looked at counties that shared a border but were in different states. One state had the death penalty one didn't. Know what they found? In most cases they found the county in the state with the death penalty actually had more death penalty level crimes than the one without.
Also you can look at people like Ted Bundy who went to Florida to kill because they had the death penalty. He wanted to be killed if caught not locked up forever. He isn't the only one.
There is a clear scientific consenus, which means the vast overwhelming majority of scientists agree, that the death penalty provides no deterrent effect
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rockaction
Footballguy
General deterrence.
It's awfully tough to come to an objective consensus about specific deterrence.
NCCommish
Footballguy
You either have more murders or less. If you have more and you have the death penalty which has been proven to be racially skewed and which has been proven to put innocent people on death row while still not accomplishing its stated goal then it's a failure on multiple fronts. It's not as hard as all that.
rockaction
Footballguy
Sorry, NCC, and I'm with you on the death penalty, but that's not right. There are two types of deterrence -- specific and general. General is what they're measuring because they can't measure specific deterrence. The specific deterrence is already baked into the pie when using the methodology you're describing. It's why two separate categories exist in criminal law studies -- because the effect on the individual is different than the effect on the aggregate.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
NCCommish
Footballguy
Putting them in prison for life without chance of parole does the same thing. And you know what? If we get it wrong at least we didn't kill an innocent person.
NCCommish
Footballguy
And it's a difference without much meaning. Either this works or it doesn't. It doesn't. And it obviously doesnt whichever kind of deterrence you want to cite because again states without have less murders.
rockaction
Footballguy
That's just not accurate. I can't really do anything to really remove the notion from your head though, so...
que sera sera.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
No it doesn't. They still exist. They can still communicate. They can get freedom and have hope.
identikit
Footballguy
NCCommish
Footballguy
Life without chance of parole. They aren't getting out. And all you want is vengeance not punishment.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
I don't want vengeance. I don't even know any of them.
*I also don't want innocent people convicted, at any level.
NCCommish
Footballguy
And spend the rest of their lives in solitary or get killed by someone themselves.
By the way the leading cause of death in prison is cancer. The murder rate is roughly 3 per 100000. That's much lower than your average big city.
msommer
Footballguy
Three hundred years ago or so the question of death penalty deterrent was discussed in the British Parliament. The conservative voices at the time predicted a unstoppable crime wave if the death penalty for theft was dropped.
It was removed and to the surprise of those opposed to dropping the death penalty for theft no crime wave ensued.
Why are we still discussing deterrent?
It was removed and to the surprise of those opposed to dropping the death penalty for theft no crime wave ensued.
Why are we still discussing deterrent?
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
If the death penalty acts as a deterrent to stop a specific murder or two or whatever but the number of murders overall stays the same or goes up then doesn't that mean the death penalty at some level acts as an incentive to create the "replacement" murders?
So it shifts around the murderers and the victims a bit but it is still a net wash or a loser unless we somehow value one set of murderers/victims differently.
rockaction
Footballguy
This could be. I sound awfully declarative here. Might be a show-your-work type of thing.
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
msommer
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
you cannot see the difference - that's ok some people cannotdkp993 said:
murdering someone and punishing that act isn't the same as being addicted to a drug and punishing the end user
when you understand that come back
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
Classic Steathly. This is exactly why it’s infuriating trying to have a discussion with you. You do actually engage, which is great, but you either repeat the same point over and over again despite others refuting those points or you shift your arguments. Read the bolded below. This is what YOU said and I responded too. Limiting the arguments to just murder as you do in the above changes the arguments. As I asked you multiple times, please stay on point. Do harsher punishment for all crime work like you said below? If so please explain that impact on the drug war (or California’s 3 strike law).
Stealthycat
Footballguy
geeesh talking about capital punishment for something evil (murder) someone does and you are trying to compare it to the end user doing a drug and ignoring the traffickers/cartels ..... and saying I need to stay on point ?
wow
ok look - is crime/drug use down ? pick how it is, where it is, and you can talk the "war" on drugs but yes I stay firm on my belief that strong penalties = less crime
I don't think we have near strong enough - liberals don't want strong penalties
dkp993
Footballguy
Geesh, not sure why this is so complicated for you. YOU brought up the point, I even quoted it again so you could see that, I’ve stuck with the point YOU brought up all along. Wow.
Good so it’s a “belief” but it’s not at all backed up by fact (or at least none you’re bothering to point too). Cool. You’re certainly more then welcomed to believe what you what, it just doesn’t make it true.
Btw as a side note I’m not a liberal.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
show me a system around the globe that has really harsh capital punishment and still has the incarceration rate the US has - show me
btw I didn't say you were a liberal - I meant liberals in general are the ones fighting against capital punishment
dkp993
Footballguy
Again you’re not discussing YOUR point, you’re isolating it now to specifically capital punishment which is not at all what you originally said.....
But to address the new point you brought up, our incarceration rates have skyrocketed largely due to drug convictions so what your asking has nothing to do with harsh capital punishments
For the record I’m not against the death penalty, I’m here reading this thread because I’m working through my position on it. There’s been some great thoughts by @Ditkaless Wonders, @HellToupee, you (specifically the no questions mass killers) and others that generally echo my feelings. This is not an issue you can paint with a broad brush though in my opinion and it’s in that I was pointing out to you what I think you were doing.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
Both, dramatically. The numbers are really mind blowing really.
https://www.sentencingproject.org/criminal-justice-facts/
Stealthycat
Footballguy
that's a good link
I'm curious of all those convicted in drug offense ... how many were the traffickers/cartels/bigger dealers? I'm guessing almost all of them were users
what you are saying basically is there is no penalty that'll stop people from using drugs? and if that's true ... is there no penalty then to stop people from being violent too ?
dkp993
Footballguy
I’m not really sure honestly but they are valid questions. While I’d like to believe that harsher punishment draws a straight line to effective deterrents it doesn’t work that way and is much more complex. Largely because you’re dealing with human beings and we’re complex. Now obviously no accountability is clearly not an answer either.
All I know is that after managing/leading for 25 years and becoming a parent I’ve learned that the answer is almost never simple or black and white when you’re dealing with people.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
possibly the penalty isn't harsh enough ?
perhaps (when talking about drugs) the wrong people are being targeted ?
but again, way different than murderers .... they're the sole perpetrator and I believe swift death penalties to those known guilty without doubt would make a positive difference
we'll never see it - too maybe liberals who like life in prison and millions spent to keep murders alive.
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