Agholor vs Perriman in the late first...who do you like? (1 Viewer)

[Sabertooth]

How about long term?

 

[Slapdash]

Do the Perriman supporters think that Trestman is going to change the offense/Flacco enough that it will produce better WR numbers? I think the top WR performance with Flacco is WR15, that is a bit concerning.

 

[Zyphros]

Because Sanchez (even though he bombed the playoff attempt) still supported that entire receiving core in his little stint. Especially in PPR. There's no reason to think Bradford is a terrible option barring injury. And worst case Sanchez comes in and does what he did before and is at least servicable. That isn't a massive downgrade for the position players.

People in here are talking Perriman has more opportunity I just don't see it as all that good. It appears that way, but whats the best WR year the Ravens have? Torrey in 2013 with 1128/4TD's seems like it. That isn't that good. At least we know a fantasy receiver can be super productive with Chip Kelley (Maclin last year 1318/10), whether that's Matthews or Agholor we won't know, but they can each play both inside/outside so I'm willing to bet on that. I can't remember one as good with Harbaugh.

Also it's not that I'm just a hater of Perriman, I really like Agholor and have him as my #3 WR this year. I am also down on Perriman so take what I say with a grain of salt. I just don't see as good a football player when I look at Perriman. Lets go through the boxes

Route running - Agholor > Perriman

Hands - Agholor > Perriman

Work Ethic - Agholor > Perriman

Physical skills - Perriman > Agholor

3 for Agholor, 1 for Perriman

Someone said you can't teach the size/speed Perriman has, but Agholor has to bulk up a bit and could be every bit as good at boxing out and being physical, he certainly has the attitude for it.

 

[Sabertooth]

I don't think we've heard anything at all about Perriman lacking work ethic. Not so sure on that one but you make good points. I find myself wanting to defend Perriman and I know that's not good.

 

[mikmak8902]

I think he's simply stating agholor's work ethic is above avg. I don't think it's a shot at perriman.

 

[Zyphros]

I don't think we've heard anything at all about Perriman lacking work ethic. Not so sure on that one but you make good points. I find myself wanting to defend Perriman and I know that's not good.

If I'm being honest, I haven't heard anything either and just don't know about his work ethic. I make the assumption b/c of his father he SHOULD be further along and less of a project but I just don't know.

 

[Alex P Keaton]

Do the Perriman supporters think that Trestman is going to change the offense/Flacco enough that it will produce better WR numbers? I think the top WR performance with Flacco is WR15, that is a bit concerning.

Trestman just today said that he is keeping the same offense in place that Baltimore used last year

 

[Bob Magaw]

Perriman for many reasons

1. Better QB IMO. Bradford sucks and can he stay healthy. than you get Sanchez. What is the future. I like joe Flacco.

2. O philosophy. I know Chip wants to play fast paced but he also wants to run a ton. Why they have 3 nice RB's. Baltimore is run but Trestman loves the air as the new OC.

3. More chances. Smith is old and Matthews/Ertz in play also in Philly. Plus his boy Huff. What competition does Perriman have other than old man Steve and Madd Maxx now. I like opp in Baltimore.

4. Great learning tool in Steve Smith. I think this will be big for Perriman for his upside.

5. Size and Speed. Give me both of those things in a player. I think the other stuff can be taught. Plus I like his family pedigree.

6. USC WR. The past speaks volumes of these guys. Agholor reminds me of many that have come in and they dont see to do that well.

I know the hands has been questioned but I dont think the issue is hands as much as concentration for the Stephon HIll comment. Smith will help concentration. Great start to his rookie camp for the hands. One drop for concentration. I really think he overcomes this and his ceiling is way higher than Agholor's down the line. Give me the guy with a top 10 Chance over the WR who probably will be top 25 but how much higher.

This is the exact answer.Everything for Perriman screams more opportunity and better, more stable QB and coaches. The addition to Trestman alone is noteworthy, not to mention Flacco and Harbaugh who aren't going anywhere soon.

Thriftyrocker is dead on: Perriman is in a K. Benjamin situation, except he has better coaching and long ball QB.

Perriman, by his physical nature is RARE. He can be Josh Gordon (hold on, someone's at the door...come in Soulfly).

This is the exactly WRONG answer. It's Agholor by a full round in rookie drafts.1. Better QB is a wasteful argument because Bradford has all the tools and the only thing stopping him from being a top10 QB is health. Not to mention that Sanchez was very servicable and productive in his short stint as starter.

2. The O philosophy changes with personnel and even when they had McCoy the WR's we're very good. With Matthews being a rookie that year he had a solid year and is only going to get better with an equally great rookie across from him.

3. More chances? How can you say that when you just said Chip wants fast paced offense? I don't even need to pick that one apart. There's plenty of touches to go around especially to a very good route runner coming in like Agholor. Chip's offense it timing based, and if Agholor is always in that spot at that time, he'll be productive.

4. Agholor doesn't need a "great learning tool" when his work ethic is unquestioned. He is known for that which makes him a great pick.

5. Sure Perriman is bigger/faster but Agholor is no slouch in that department either. He ran a 4.42 which isn't slow and he has a natural feel for the game. Better football player overall than Perriman.

6. The whole USC thing is overblown. Evaluate each prospect separate from team dynamic and you have an un-biased result. And for those that want to compare to Lee, he didn't have a bad rookie year either and is a foundation piece for the Jags, again great work ethic and solid route running, he will start to shine soon.

There is no ceiling for a guy who runs great routes and catches everything... You're just looking it as a 5'11 receiver vs. a 6'2 receiver. The ceiling is how they play. Agholor plays with a fire and a competitive edge to him, Perriman doesn't (at least from what I've seen). You can't necessarily put a "ceiling" on it because the game is built for receivers. Again it's not even close for me. Agholor takes the cake.

1. Shew...well, its a good thing that "only thing" (health) really doesn't matter much. Come on. You can't be serious. That's like saying "That dude would be a great race car driver if he knew how to drive...or had a license. you categorically stating that the only thing keeping him from being a top 10 QB is health tells us two things: A)That you don't understand the importance of health as it relates and B) that you are wearing some rose colored glasses because it is really difficult to say that you just KNOW a guy will be a top 10 NFL Qb in a league full of Brady, Manning, Luck, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson, Tannehill, Big Ben, Romo, Flacco, Newton, Ryan, Stafford, Rivers (exactly which FIVE of those guys are you putting Bradford ahead of here to make top 10?). Clearly, you are just looking at "oh my gosh, it's a chip Kelly offense because you miss the bigger point. This is a dynasty question and Sanchez was "so good" that he was universally being called out as the reason the Eagles flopping down the stretch. There will be no Chip Kelly in Philly if he doesn't win in real life. 2. I never said a thing about a USC receiver so take that up with someone else.

3. When people make statements that say "I am doing this", it tells me you assume way too much because you have no idea what I am basing this on. To be clear, it has very little to do with size comparisons. What I have said several times is it is the complete picture:

Player vs. Player-both have qualities the other doesn't have but only one has the ability to be taught what the other doesn't. Quality coaches (e.g., Trestman, Harbaugh, etc) can work on foot work and catching and routes.. That is why they are called coaches. If you want to say "well, it didn't work with DHB or some guy, tell me-who was the outstanding coach working with DHB? Agholor can't be taught to be one of the fastest WRs in the NFL the minute he steps on a field or to be 5 inches taller. This stuff matters!

Coaches vs. Coaches- Chip Kelly is great for fantasy but until he wins in the NFL, he's not as good a dynasty investment as Baltimore because the Ravens, love them or hate them, are ROCK SOLID. Awesome GM, SB winning coach, and an OC that can hang with Kelly. No contest.

Environment-Another no contest. Perriman gets the benefit of learning from one of the most competitive peers he could ask for in Smith. He also has almost literally zero competition. He also has a SB winning QB who has refined the deep ball aspect of his game for the past 4 years. It is tried, tested, and true. And as an aside, the Ravens said they want to limit the snaps of the only WR competition Perriman has. Agholor, conversely, was a guy named Jordan Matthews a year ago. 365 days ago, Matthews WAS Agholor. He was the guy Chip wanted and he was going to replace player X perfectly and fit the system beautifully, etc. Ok, so where do all these balls go on a team with a mega investment in a particular pair of RBs (that Chip wanted), a 2nd year Wr (that chip wanted), a 3rd year TE (that chip has already said will take a step this year), and Agholor?

To me, this could not be any simpler. There is NO way these two should be this much of a toss up. This is just justifying the guy you picked, whichever side you land on. It is the antithesis of the reasoning of, say, had Jay Ajayi went to Dallas. Had he went, nobody would care about knees or rounds drafted and all that. All that would have mattered would have been that the situation he fell into would trump all else. But instead, everyone discounts Jay and completely overlooks the guys that are actually on the team behind the great environment of support.

I won't argue anyone who says Agholor in redraft but in dynasty, it's silly to take Agholor over Perriman because it is probably at least a 3 to 1 chance that, in as little as 3 years, The Eagles have EITHER moved on from Chip or drafted another WR or two or found that Ertz and Matthews and Murray are the 1-2-3 options in that offense or are in year 2 of yet another QB, etc while in 3 years, it is highly likely that Flacco is still there, Ozzie Newsome and Harbaugh are still there, Perriman is now the veteran WR1 established on the team, etc.

Why the assumption PHI will keep taking WRs with first and second round picks year after year after year?Chip cut loose Jackson in '14 and added a WR in Mathews, and in '15 allowed Maclin to leave and replaced him with Agholor. It isn't like there is a 10-20 year history where Kelly churns through high pedigree WRs every year. He just replaced two starters at WR, not 10-20. If Agholor plays poorly, he could be replaced, but the same goes for Perriman, it isn't like he is exempt. How did BALs stability work out for Travis Taylor. Didn't Ozzie just allow Torrey Smith to walk? If Agholor does well, why would Kelly replace him just to replace him. Jackson and McCoy may not have bought into the program, whatever that means, but if he does what the HC asks him to do, he won't necessarily have some of the issues his predecessors did. I don't see the need to assume this as a given. As a first rounder, they could have him for a half decade with the fifth year option, if not longer.

If every WR that was tall and fast just needed to be coached up, Stephen Hill would be a Hall of Famer. There are a lot of WRs that have been very successful, that aren't appreciably bigger or faster than Agholor. You don't have to run a 4.25 to be a great WR. If you break down the fastest WRs in the league, there isn't a strong correlation with success. There is also a lot of data to suggest that WRs with comparable pedigree do similarly, regardless of size. OBJ was shorter than Benjamin, but was drafted higher and did better, because he compensates in other ways for his lack of height, for instance by being a more precise route runner. Agholor was drafted higher than Perriman. Most of the top length/speed WRs, such as Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Julio Jones, Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, etc,, were taken higher than Perriman. If he was really like them in more important ways than just being tall and fast, he probably would have been drafted higher.

Flacco throws a nice deep ball. Despite that, Torrey Smith (another tall, fast, freakishly athletic WR with suspect hands) never managed to be a great WR? Steve Smith didn't look as good at the end of last season, he is 35+, very possible this is his last season. I wouldn't put a lot of stock for dynasty purposes on how much competitive learning he will confer on Perriman during his career.

I also don't get the whole idea of Kelly being a mortal lock to be gone in a few years. He has two straight 10-6 seasons. He works for an owner, Jeff Lurie, who retained Andy Reid as one of the longest tenured HCs in the NFL after Belichick. The BAL OC that can hang just got fired, right?

There are a lot of potentially unwarranted assumptions here. In dynasty, it is like you are subjectively telling others they are being subjective. This is far from the sure thing you are making it out to be.

 

[Sabertooth]

Cossell really liked PerrimAn pre draft. Said he might have the most upside of any wideout in the draft. I am concerned a bit about the Ravens milquetoast passing attack. Of course it isn't like they've had a true stud wideout either.

 

[mikmak8902]

I'm trying to keep my mind open to Perriman even though I still have Agholor ranked above him. I keep reading guys stating that you can't coach size and speed. Agreed. But I think the same can be said for smooth route running and hands. When was the last time a WR came in to the NFL who couldn't run routes and couldn't catch but quality coaching turned that all around and the guy became a fantasy stud.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I just, honestly can't remember it happening. These guys have been playing football since they were in grade school. If they can't catch or run a route now, I'm not sure that all the coaching in the world will turn that around. Guys love to say that they'll get better coaching at the pro level. I'm not so sure that's true either. The level of coaching at the D1 level is pretty damn high. I'm not sure Bobby Engram is going to take a guy that just received 3 yrs of D1 level WR coaching and turn him into a different player.

However, to be fair, I see that Sean Beckton has been the WR coach at UCF since 2012 (Perriman's freshman year). Previously he was the d-backs coach. So I guess you could look at it two ways. Perriman received subpar coaching from a guy that just switched to WR's in his freshman year or you could say Beckton is one hell of a WR coach because he turned Perriman into a 1st round NFL talent.

Who knows.

 

[Slapdash]

I'm trying to keep my mind open to Perriman even though I still have Agholor ranked above him. I keep reading guys stating that you can't coach size and speed. Agreed. But I think the same can be said for smooth route running and hands. When was the last time a WR came in to the NFL who couldn't run routes and couldn't catch but quality coaching turned that all around and the guy became a fantasy stud.

I'd be curious to hear examples as well.

 

[Shutout]

Perriman for many reasons

1. Better QB IMO. Bradford sucks and can he stay healthy. than you get Sanchez. What is the future. I like joe Flacco.

2. O philosophy. I know Chip wants to play fast paced but he also wants to run a ton. Why they have 3 nice RB's. Baltimore is run but Trestman loves the air as the new OC.

3. More chances. Smith is old and Matthews/Ertz in play also in Philly. Plus his boy Huff. What competition does Perriman have other than old man Steve and Madd Maxx now. I like opp in Baltimore.

4. Great learning tool in Steve Smith. I think this will be big for Perriman for his upside.

5. Size and Speed. Give me both of those things in a player. I think the other stuff can be taught. Plus I like his family pedigree.

6. USC WR. The past speaks volumes of these guys. Agholor reminds me of many that have come in and they dont see to do that well.

I know the hands has been questioned but I dont think the issue is hands as much as concentration for the Stephon HIll comment. Smith will help concentration. Great start to his rookie camp for the hands. One drop for concentration. I really think he overcomes this and his ceiling is way higher than Agholor's down the line. Give me the guy with a top 10 Chance over the WR who probably will be top 25 but how much higher.

This is the exact answer.Everything for Perriman screams more opportunity and better, more stable QB and coaches. The addition to Trestman alone is noteworthy, not to mention Flacco and Harbaugh who aren't going anywhere soon.

Thriftyrocker is dead on: Perriman is in a K. Benjamin situation, except he has better coaching and long ball QB.

Perriman, by his physical nature is RARE. He can be Josh Gordon (hold on, someone's at the door...come in Soulfly).

This is the exactly WRONG answer. It's Agholor by a full round in rookie drafts.1. Better QB is a wasteful argument because Bradford has all the tools and the only thing stopping him from being a top10 QB is health. Not to mention that Sanchez was very servicable and productive in his short stint as starter.

2. The O philosophy changes with personnel and even when they had McCoy the WR's we're very good. With Matthews being a rookie that year he had a solid year and is only going to get better with an equally great rookie across from him.

3. More chances? How can you say that when you just said Chip wants fast paced offense? I don't even need to pick that one apart. There's plenty of touches to go around especially to a very good route runner coming in like Agholor. Chip's offense it timing based, and if Agholor is always in that spot at that time, he'll be productive.

4. Agholor doesn't need a "great learning tool" when his work ethic is unquestioned. He is known for that which makes him a great pick.

5. Sure Perriman is bigger/faster but Agholor is no slouch in that department either. He ran a 4.42 which isn't slow and he has a natural feel for the game. Better football player overall than Perriman.

6. The whole USC thing is overblown. Evaluate each prospect separate from team dynamic and you have an un-biased result. And for those that want to compare to Lee, he didn't have a bad rookie year either and is a foundation piece for the Jags, again great work ethic and solid route running, he will start to shine soon.

There is no ceiling for a guy who runs great routes and catches everything... You're just looking it as a 5'11 receiver vs. a 6'2 receiver. The ceiling is how they play. Agholor plays with a fire and a competitive edge to him, Perriman doesn't (at least from what I've seen). You can't necessarily put a "ceiling" on it because the game is built for receivers. Again it's not even close for me. Agholor takes the cake.

1. Shew...well, its a good thing that "only thing" (health) really doesn't matter much. Come on. You can't be serious. That's like saying "That dude would be a great race car driver if he knew how to drive...or had a license. you categorically stating that the only thing keeping him from being a top 10 QB is health tells us two things: A)That you don't understand the importance of health as it relates and B) that you are wearing some rose colored glasses because it is really difficult to say that you just KNOW a guy will be a top 10 NFL Qb in a league full of Brady, Manning, Luck, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson, Tannehill, Big Ben, Romo, Flacco, Newton, Ryan, Stafford, Rivers (exactly which FIVE of those guys are you putting Bradford ahead of here to make top 10?). Clearly, you are just looking at "oh my gosh, it's a chip Kelly offense because you miss the bigger point. This is a dynasty question and Sanchez was "so good" that he was universally being called out as the reason the Eagles flopping down the stretch. There will be no Chip Kelly in Philly if he doesn't win in real life. 2. I never said a thing about a USC receiver so take that up with someone else.

3. When people make statements that say "I am doing this", it tells me you assume way too much because you have no idea what I am basing this on. To be clear, it has very little to do with size comparisons. What I have said several times is it is the complete picture:

Player vs. Player-both have qualities the other doesn't have but only one has the ability to be taught what the other doesn't. Quality coaches (e.g., Trestman, Harbaugh, etc) can work on foot work and catching and routes.. That is why they are called coaches. If you want to say "well, it didn't work with DHB or some guy, tell me-who was the outstanding coach working with DHB? Agholor can't be taught to be one of the fastest WRs in the NFL the minute he steps on a field or to be 5 inches taller. This stuff matters!

Coaches vs. Coaches- Chip Kelly is great for fantasy but until he wins in the NFL, he's not as good a dynasty investment as Baltimore because the Ravens, love them or hate them, are ROCK SOLID. Awesome GM, SB winning coach, and an OC that can hang with Kelly. No contest.

Environment-Another no contest. Perriman gets the benefit of learning from one of the most competitive peers he could ask for in Smith. He also has almost literally zero competition. He also has a SB winning QB who has refined the deep ball aspect of his game for the past 4 years. It is tried, tested, and true. And as an aside, the Ravens said they want to limit the snaps of the only WR competition Perriman has. Agholor, conversely, was a guy named Jordan Matthews a year ago. 365 days ago, Matthews WAS Agholor. He was the guy Chip wanted and he was going to replace player X perfectly and fit the system beautifully, etc. Ok, so where do all these balls go on a team with a mega investment in a particular pair of RBs (that Chip wanted), a 2nd year Wr (that chip wanted), a 3rd year TE (that chip has already said will take a step this year), and Agholor?

To me, this could not be any simpler. There is NO way these two should be this much of a toss up. This is just justifying the guy you picked, whichever side you land on. It is the antithesis of the reasoning of, say, had Jay Ajayi went to Dallas. Had he went, nobody would care about knees or rounds drafted and all that. All that would have mattered would have been that the situation he fell into would trump all else. But instead, everyone discounts Jay and completely overlooks the guys that are actually on the team behind the great environment of support.

I won't argue anyone who says Agholor in redraft but in dynasty, it's silly to take Agholor over Perriman because it is probably at least a 3 to 1 chance that, in as little as 3 years, The Eagles have EITHER moved on from Chip or drafted another WR or two or found that Ertz and Matthews and Murray are the 1-2-3 options in that offense or are in year 2 of yet another QB, etc while in 3 years, it is highly likely that Flacco is still there, Ozzie Newsome and Harbaugh are still there, Perriman is now the veteran WR1 established on the team, etc.

Why the assumption PHI will keep taking WRs with first and second round picks year after year after year?Chip cut loose Jackson in '14 and added a WR in Mathews, and in '15 allowed Maclin to leave and replaced him with Agholor. It isn't like there is a 10-20 year history where Kelly churns through high pedigree WRs every year. He just replaced two starters at WR, not 10-20. If Agholor plays poorly, he could be replaced, but the same goes for Perriman, it isn't like he is exempt. How did BALs stability work out for Travis Taylor. Didn't Ozzie just allow Torrey Smith to walk? If Agholor does well, why would Kelly replace him just to replace him. Jackson and McCoy may not have bought into the program, whatever that means, but if he does what the HC asks him to do, he won't necessarily have some of the issues his predecessors did. I don't see the need to assume this as a given. As a first rounder, they could have him for a half decade with the fifth year option, if not longer.

If every WR that was tall and fast just needed to be coached up, Stephen Hill would be a Hall of Famer. There are a lot of WRs that have been very successful, that aren't appreciably bigger or faster than Agholor. You don't have to run a 4.25 to be a great WR. If you break down the fastest WRs in the league, there isn't a strong correlation with success. There is also a lot of data to suggest that WRs with comparable pedigree do similarly, regardless of size. OBJ was shorter than Benjamin, but was drafted higher and did better, because he compensates in other ways for his lack of height, for instance by being a more precise route runner. Agholor was drafted higher than Perriman. Most of the top length/speed WRs, such as Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Julio Jones, Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, etc,, were taken higher than Perriman. If he was really like them in more important ways than just being tall and fast, he probably would have been drafted higher.

Flacco throws a nice deep ball. Despite that, Torrey Smith (another tall, fast, freakishly athletic WR with suspect hands) never managed to be a great WR? Steve Smith didn't look as good at the end of last season, he is 35+, very possible this is his last season. I wouldn't put a lot of stock for dynasty purposes on how much competitive learning he will confer on Perriman during his career.

I also don't get the whole idea of Kelly being a mortal lock to be gone in a few years. He has two straight 10-6 seasons. He works for an owner, Jeff Lurie, who retained Andy Reid as one of the longest tenured HCs in the NFL after Belichick. The BAL OC that can hang just got fired, right?

There are a lot of potentially unwarranted assumptions here. In dynasty, it is like you are subjectively telling others they are being subjective. This is far from the sure thing you are making it out to be.

I didn't say the things you ask about WILL happen. I said there is a good chance they can happen relative to the Baltimore situation. That is the underlying point of emphasis. Baltimore is as rock solid in their stability at the key QB,Coach, GM position as ANY team in the league. They are not going anywhere. The Eagles have changed at least 2 of the 3 positions every year for the past 3 years. All things equal, even if the team is going in the right direction, a franchise like the Steelers is normally more desirable than a franchise like the Bucs..because they are tested long-term and that's what dynasty is about.

All drafts are fluid and made of up different supply and have different demand by teams so the relative draft position of Perriman vs guys that we now know are great players isn't a fair comparison. Rod Smith of the Broncos back in the day wasn't even drafted. Doesn't mean he couldn't be and wasn't a fine player.

I didn't say Kelly was a mortal lock to be gone. I said if he does not win and get into the playoffs and make noise, he will be gone and that is absolutely what I believe in. It is a huge mistake to think "well, Reid lasted X years". Reid knocked on the door of a SB win and had wins in the playoffs. Chip does not. But this is a case where Chip is actually at a disadvantage because he won't get the same leash Reid did. The owner is older and doesn't want to "waste" another decade of being "ok". He wants to see his goal achieved in his lifetime. The fans will not tolerate watching a repeat either. If they haven't already (I don't know), it won't be long before they are calling into the radio shows saying "this is the same old thing, different color". Patience won't allow Chip to go 6 years and make A playoff game.

I understand the natural connection to compare Torrey Smith to Perriman but while we can say we can see the players used in a similar way, we can't say the results will be the same. Victor Cruz and Odell Beckham, a year ago, were talked about similarly...but they are not the same players and while many people thought Beckhma would be great and many didn't, the fact is we did not know until we saw it all come together on the field. Agholor supporters can say the same may happen with him in Philly. It could. But just looking at what is reasonable, it shouldn't be hard to see the path for Perriman is much cleaner and with less sharing. It just is. He could command a much higher percentage of targets than his peers while Agholor is almost guaranteed to have a heavier share.

 

[Shutout]

I'm trying to keep my mind open to Perriman even though I still have Agholor ranked above him. I keep reading guys stating that you can't coach size and speed. Agreed. But I think the same can be said for smooth route running and hands. When was the last time a WR came in to the NFL who couldn't run routes and couldn't catch but quality coaching turned that all around and the guy became a fantasy stud.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I just, honestly can't remember it happening. These guys have been playing football since they were in grade school. If they can't catch or run a route now, I'm not sure that all the coaching in the world will turn that around. Guys love to say that they'll get better coaching at the pro level. I'm not so sure that's true either. The level of coaching at the D1 level is pretty damn high. I'm not sure Bobby Engram is going to take a guy that just received 3 yrs of D1 level WR coaching and turn him into a different player.

However, to be fair, I see that Sean Beckton has been the WR coach at UCF since 2012 (Perriman's freshman year). Previously he was the d-backs coach. So I guess you could look at it two ways. Perriman received subpar coaching from a guy that just switched to WR's in his freshman year or you could say Beckton is one hell of a WR coach because he turned Perriman into a 1st round NFL talent.

Who knows.

By your icon, you should know the answer to this better than most. It's Dez Bryant.

Go back and look at my post from 3 years ago when I said "Buy Dez Bryant right now", right before he blew up. In there you will read that I outlined this very scenario. The problem with Dez Bryant when people were wondering why he hadn't done what they thought he would do coming into the league was never his size or speed; it was his route running. I said then that he came from a conference where he was given free reign and never jammed at the line or forced to run a true route tree but when I said go get him, I specifically outlined that this year (at the time of the post it was early in the season and the night after they played the Bears on MNF), he has begun to show flashes that he now understands how to handle defenders and that it showed very well against Peanut and company last night.

So, Dez Bryant is an excellent example of raw tools you can't coach finally coming together with what can be coached. Ever since he adapted to suddenly having to deal with DBs and running routes, the sky has been the limit. Michael Crabtree was faced with the same thing and came into the league with a foot injury and suffered the same fate. He had a small moment where he was healthy enough to kind of get the reps he needed to start flashing but then he never could stay healthy enough to get the time in to play enough. Just my opinion, but these two are classic examples of what I am talking about.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Perriman for many reasons

1. Better QB IMO. Bradford sucks and can he stay healthy. than you get Sanchez. What is the future. I like joe Flacco.

2. O philosophy. I know Chip wants to play fast paced but he also wants to run a ton. Why they have 3 nice RB's. Baltimore is run but Trestman loves the air as the new OC.

3. More chances. Smith is old and Matthews/Ertz in play also in Philly. Plus his boy Huff. What competition does Perriman have other than old man Steve and Madd Maxx now. I like opp in Baltimore.

4. Great learning tool in Steve Smith. I think this will be big for Perriman for his upside.

5. Size and Speed. Give me both of those things in a player. I think the other stuff can be taught. Plus I like his family pedigree.

6. USC WR. The past speaks volumes of these guys. Agholor reminds me of many that have come in and they dont see to do that well.

I know the hands has been questioned but I dont think the issue is hands as much as concentration for the Stephon HIll comment. Smith will help concentration. Great start to his rookie camp for the hands. One drop for concentration. I really think he overcomes this and his ceiling is way higher than Agholor's down the line. Give me the guy with a top 10 Chance over the WR who probably will be top 25 but how much higher.

This is the exact answer.Everything for Perriman screams more opportunity and better, more stable QB and coaches. The addition to Trestman alone is noteworthy, not to mention Flacco and Harbaugh who aren't going anywhere soon.

Thriftyrocker is dead on: Perriman is in a K. Benjamin situation, except he has better coaching and long ball QB.

Perriman, by his physical nature is RARE. He can be Josh Gordon (hold on, someone's at the door...come in Soulfly).

This is the exactly WRONG answer. It's Agholor by a full round in rookie drafts.1. Better QB is a wasteful argument because Bradford has all the tools and the only thing stopping him from being a top10 QB is health. Not to mention that Sanchez was very servicable and productive in his short stint as starter.

2. The O philosophy changes with personnel and even when they had McCoy the WR's we're very good. With Matthews being a rookie that year he had a solid year and is only going to get better with an equally great rookie across from him.

3. More chances? How can you say that when you just said Chip wants fast paced offense? I don't even need to pick that one apart. There's plenty of touches to go around especially to a very good route runner coming in like Agholor. Chip's offense it timing based, and if Agholor is always in that spot at that time, he'll be productive.

4. Agholor doesn't need a "great learning tool" when his work ethic is unquestioned. He is known for that which makes him a great pick.

5. Sure Perriman is bigger/faster but Agholor is no slouch in that department either. He ran a 4.42 which isn't slow and he has a natural feel for the game. Better football player overall than Perriman.

6. The whole USC thing is overblown. Evaluate each prospect separate from team dynamic and you have an un-biased result. And for those that want to compare to Lee, he didn't have a bad rookie year either and is a foundation piece for the Jags, again great work ethic and solid route running, he will start to shine soon.

There is no ceiling for a guy who runs great routes and catches everything... You're just looking it as a 5'11 receiver vs. a 6'2 receiver. The ceiling is how they play. Agholor plays with a fire and a competitive edge to him, Perriman doesn't (at least from what I've seen). You can't necessarily put a "ceiling" on it because the game is built for receivers. Again it's not even close for me. Agholor takes the cake.

1. Shew...well, its a good thing that "only thing" (health) really doesn't matter much. Come on. You can't be serious. That's like saying "That dude would be a great race car driver if he knew how to drive...or had a license. you categorically stating that the only thing keeping him from being a top 10 QB is health tells us two things: A)That you don't understand the importance of health as it relates and B) that you are wearing some rose colored glasses because it is really difficult to say that you just KNOW a guy will be a top 10 NFL Qb in a league full of Brady, Manning, Luck, Brees, Rodgers, Wilson, Tannehill, Big Ben, Romo, Flacco, Newton, Ryan, Stafford, Rivers (exactly which FIVE of those guys are you putting Bradford ahead of here to make top 10?). Clearly, you are just looking at "oh my gosh, it's a chip Kelly offense because you miss the bigger point. This is a dynasty question and Sanchez was "so good" that he was universally being called out as the reason the Eagles flopping down the stretch. There will be no Chip Kelly in Philly if he doesn't win in real life. 2. I never said a thing about a USC receiver so take that up with someone else.

3. When people make statements that say "I am doing this", it tells me you assume way too much because you have no idea what I am basing this on. To be clear, it has very little to do with size comparisons. What I have said several times is it is the complete picture:

Player vs. Player-both have qualities the other doesn't have but only one has the ability to be taught what the other doesn't. Quality coaches (e.g., Trestman, Harbaugh, etc) can work on foot work and catching and routes.. That is why they are called coaches. If you want to say "well, it didn't work with DHB or some guy, tell me-who was the outstanding coach working with DHB? Agholor can't be taught to be one of the fastest WRs in the NFL the minute he steps on a field or to be 5 inches taller. This stuff matters!

Coaches vs. Coaches- Chip Kelly is great for fantasy but until he wins in the NFL, he's not as good a dynasty investment as Baltimore because the Ravens, love them or hate them, are ROCK SOLID. Awesome GM, SB winning coach, and an OC that can hang with Kelly. No contest.

Environment-Another no contest. Perriman gets the benefit of learning from one of the most competitive peers he could ask for in Smith. He also has almost literally zero competition. He also has a SB winning QB who has refined the deep ball aspect of his game for the past 4 years. It is tried, tested, and true. And as an aside, the Ravens said they want to limit the snaps of the only WR competition Perriman has. Agholor, conversely, was a guy named Jordan Matthews a year ago. 365 days ago, Matthews WAS Agholor. He was the guy Chip wanted and he was going to replace player X perfectly and fit the system beautifully, etc. Ok, so where do all these balls go on a team with a mega investment in a particular pair of RBs (that Chip wanted), a 2nd year Wr (that chip wanted), a 3rd year TE (that chip has already said will take a step this year), and Agholor?

To me, this could not be any simpler. There is NO way these two should be this much of a toss up. This is just justifying the guy you picked, whichever side you land on. It is the antithesis of the reasoning of, say, had Jay Ajayi went to Dallas. Had he went, nobody would care about knees or rounds drafted and all that. All that would have mattered would have been that the situation he fell into would trump all else. But instead, everyone discounts Jay and completely overlooks the guys that are actually on the team behind the great environment of support.

I won't argue anyone who says Agholor in redraft but in dynasty, it's silly to take Agholor over Perriman because it is probably at least a 3 to 1 chance that, in as little as 3 years, The Eagles have EITHER moved on from Chip or drafted another WR or two or found that Ertz and Matthews and Murray are the 1-2-3 options in that offense or are in year 2 of yet another QB, etc while in 3 years, it is highly likely that Flacco is still there, Ozzie Newsome and Harbaugh are still there, Perriman is now the veteran WR1 established on the team, etc.

Why the assumption PHI will keep taking WRs with first and second round picks year after year after year?Chip cut loose Jackson in '14 and added a WR in Mathews, and in '15 allowed Maclin to leave and replaced him with Agholor. It isn't like there is a 10-20 year history where Kelly churns through high pedigree WRs every year. He just replaced two starters at WR, not 10-20. If Agholor plays poorly, he could be replaced, but the same goes for Perriman, it isn't like he is exempt. How did BALs stability work out for Travis Taylor. Didn't Ozzie just allow Torrey Smith to walk? If Agholor does well, why would Kelly replace him just to replace him. Jackson and McCoy may not have bought into the program, whatever that means, but if he does what the HC asks him to do, he won't necessarily have some of the issues his predecessors did. I don't see the need to assume this as a given. As a first rounder, they could have him for a half decade with the fifth year option, if not longer.

If every WR that was tall and fast just needed to be coached up, Stephen Hill would be a Hall of Famer. There are a lot of WRs that have been very successful, that aren't appreciably bigger or faster than Agholor. You don't have to run a 4.25 to be a great WR. If you break down the fastest WRs in the league, there isn't a strong correlation with success. There is also a lot of data to suggest that WRs with comparable pedigree do similarly, regardless of size. OBJ was shorter than Benjamin, but was drafted higher and did better, because he compensates in other ways for his lack of height, for instance by being a more precise route runner. Agholor was drafted higher than Perriman. Most of the top length/speed WRs, such as Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Julio Jones, Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, etc,, were taken higher than Perriman. If he was really like them in more important ways than just being tall and fast, he probably would have been drafted higher.

Flacco throws a nice deep ball. Despite that, Torrey Smith (another tall, fast, freakishly athletic WR with suspect hands) never managed to be a great WR? Steve Smith didn't look as good at the end of last season, he is 35+, very possible this is his last season. I wouldn't put a lot of stock for dynasty purposes on how much competitive learning he will confer on Perriman during his career.

I also don't get the whole idea of Kelly being a mortal lock to be gone in a few years. He has two straight 10-6 seasons. He works for an owner, Jeff Lurie, who retained Andy Reid as one of the longest tenured HCs in the NFL after Belichick. The BAL OC that can hang just got fired, right?

There are a lot of potentially unwarranted assumptions here. In dynasty, it is like you are subjectively telling others they are being subjective. This is far from the sure thing you are making it out to be.

I didn't say the things you ask about WILL happen. I said there is a good chance they can happen relative to the Baltimore situation. That is the underlying point of emphasis. Baltimore is as rock solid in their stability at the key QB,Coach, GM position as ANY team in the league. They are not going anywhere. The Eagles have changed at least 2 of the 3 positions every year for the past 3 years. All things equal, even if the team is going in the right direction, a franchise like the Steelers is normally more desirable than a franchise like the Bucs..because they are tested long-term and that's what dynasty is about. All drafts are fluid and made of up different supply and have different demand by teams so the relative draft position of Perriman vs guys that we now know are great players isn't a fair comparison. Rod Smith of the Broncos back in the day wasn't even drafted. Doesn't mean he couldn't be and wasn't a fine player.

I didn't say Kelly was a mortal lock to be gone. I said if he does not win and get into the playoffs and make noise, he will be gone and that is absolutely what I believe in. It is a huge mistake to think "well, Reid lasted X years". Reid knocked on the door of a SB win and had wins in the playoffs. Chip does not. But this is a case where Chip is actually at a disadvantage because he won't get the same leash Reid did. The owner is older and doesn't want to "waste" another decade of being "ok". He wants to see his goal achieved in his lifetime. The fans will not tolerate watching a repeat either. If they haven't already (I don't know), it won't be long before they are calling into the radio shows saying "this is the same old thing, different color". Patience won't allow Chip to go 6 years and make A playoff game.

I understand the natural connection to compare Torrey Smith to Perriman but while we can say we can see the players used in a similar way, we can't say the results will be the same. Victor Cruz and Odell Beckham, a year ago, were talked about similarly...but they are not the same players and while many people thought Beckhma would be great and many didn't, the fact is we did not know until we saw it all come together on the field. Agholor supporters can say the same may happen with him in Philly. It could. But just looking at what is reasonable, it shouldn't be hard to see the path for Perriman is much cleaner and with less sharing. It just is. He could command a much higher percentage of targets than his peers while Agholor is almost guaranteed to have a heavier share.

The main change PHI made was replacing Reid with Kelly. Recently, they consolidated Kelly's power by giving him some of the personnel juice Reid used to share with Rosenman. That makes him more powerful and stable and less precariously situated, which is the opposite direction of your narrative. Personally I go more by talent and opportunity, not which HC I think will last a decade or more. Is this really that big a factor? If BAL drafted Agholor and PHI drafted Perriman, would you flip your choice based solely on that (if not, this doesn't sound like a hugely compelling reason)? Why compare the Eagles to the Bucs, again, when Reid was the longest tenured NFL HC at the time of Reid letting him go.

Lots of players are not drafted, that is a non-sequitur. You have a lot of faith in his being tall and fast and just getting coached up, but again, most of the tall/fast WRs that are the best were drafted higher, we shouldn't just ignore that. Stephen Hill was tall and fast and had poor hands, how did that work out? You are saying it isn't a fair comparison, but than used one of the same WRs I did below, Dez Bryant. Is it fair when you make it?

It is possible to absolutely believe things you are speculating about. It would be a huge mistake to not recognize that Kelly took a 4-12 Eagles to 10-6 and won the NFC East as a rookie HC. What were you expecting, a Super Bowl win, when Reid never had one? And he had them knocking on the door of the playoffs last year, despite an unusual number of OL injuries. A lot of your argument is based on, because this thing my active imagination tells me, and this thing that my active imagination tells me, and this thing my active imagination tells me, it all adds up to a virtual certainty. You don't have the slightest idea what Kelly's leash is? You make it sound like Eagles owner Jeff Lurie is 90 like the Jets (late?) owner, and is going to change HCs like cell phones so he can hoist the Lombardi Trophy before his imminent departure from this mortal coil. That is a little melodramatic, and highly speculative. No idea where you are getting the 6 year figure from?

I'm not sure what Cruz and OBJ have to do with Smith and Perriman. I guess the moral is no player is exactly alike. But Perriman may have more similarities with Smith than the other situation. And again, if the BAL situation was so stable, how did that work out for Travis Taylor? For Smith?

Is it reasonable to talk about paths that are cleaner and involve less sharing, without noting that Maclin was top 10 last year, despite sharing, and Smith closer to top 30. Even Steve Smith was between 15-20. Since you are concerned with the future, is Perriman exempt from having to share in the future, when Ozzie, Harbaugh and Flacco are still there a decade from now? Are they never going to bring in another WR, either via free agency (like Steve Smith) or in the draft (like Perriman)? That was a reason some were high on Tre Mason in STL and Freeman in ATL last year, because they wouldn't have to share in 2015, and if they did well, it was clear sailing for as far as the eye could see.

What you aren't accounting for, is Kelly is a star maker at WR. BAL has a formula which is very conservative passing. Better to have a third of a giant pizza nearly as big as a table (top 5 in pass attempts), than a few crumbs from a Ritz cracker all to yourself (bottom half of the league in pass attempts).

Disclosure: I drafted Perriman in one league. I don't have Algohor. I prefer Algohor slightly, but I think it is close. I have a healthy respect for Kelly's scheme, and remember other WRs that were fast and "just needed to learn to catch" like Troy Williamson. If you had said Algohor was a slam dunk over Perriman on what I thought were similarly speculative grounds, I would be defending Perriman here. It is just a matter of proportion.

 

[mikmak8902]

I'm trying to keep my mind open to Perriman even though I still have Agholor ranked above him. I keep reading guys stating that you can't coach size and speed. Agreed. But I think the same can be said for smooth route running and hands. When was the last time a WR came in to the NFL who couldn't run routes and couldn't catch but quality coaching turned that all around and the guy became a fantasy stud.

I'm not saying it hasn't happened. I just, honestly can't remember it happening. These guys have been playing football since they were in grade school. If they can't catch or run a route now, I'm not sure that all the coaching in the world will turn that around. Guys love to say that they'll get better coaching at the pro level. I'm not so sure that's true either. The level of coaching at the D1 level is pretty damn high. I'm not sure Bobby Engram is going to take a guy that just received 3 yrs of D1 level WR coaching and turn him into a different player.

However, to be fair, I see that Sean Beckton has been the WR coach at UCF since 2012 (Perriman's freshman year). Previously he was the d-backs coach. So I guess you could look at it two ways. Perriman received subpar coaching from a guy that just switched to WR's in his freshman year or you could say Beckton is one hell of a WR coach because he turned Perriman into a 1st round NFL talent.

Who knows.

By your icon, you should know the answer to this better than most. It's Dez Bryant.

Go back and look at my post from 3 years ago when I said "Buy Dez Bryant right now", right before he blew up. In there you will read that I outlined this very scenario. The problem with Dez Bryant when people were wondering why he hadn't done what they thought he would do coming into the league was never his size or speed; it was his route running. I said then that he came from a conference where he was given free reign and never jammed at the line or forced to run a true route tree but when I said go get him, I specifically outlined that this year (at the time of the post it was early in the season and the night after they played the Bears on MNF), he has begun to show flashes that he now understands how to handle defenders and that it showed very well against Peanut and company last night.

So, Dez Bryant is an excellent example of raw tools you can't coach finally coming together with what can be coached. Ever since he adapted to suddenly having to deal with DBs and running routes, the sky has been the limit. Michael Crabtree was faced with the same thing and came into the league with a foot injury and suffered the same fate. He had a small moment where he was healthy enough to kind of get the reps he needed to start flashing but then he never could stay healthy enough to get the time in to play enough. Just my opinion, but these two are classic examples of what I am talking about.

Great post but I have to disagree on Dez ... at least from my point of view. I remember when dez came in, there was absolutely no questioning this guy's athleticism. I don't really think there was a question of him not being able to run good routes. It was a question of attitude and making the EFFORT to run more precise routes. Also, the only reason he dropped to the Boys is because of off field issues.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/dez-bryant-background-worst-had-ever-seen-ex-143532870.html

Perriman is not half the athlete Dez was coming out of college. Simply being big and fast doesn't make someone a good athlete. Dez's body control was light years ahead of where Perriman is and again ... I don't think that's something you can teach.

Also, I thought I remembered Crabtree being the exact opposite. He was a TERRIFIC route runner without Perriman's speed ... or Agholor's for that matter.

When I look at Agholor and Perriman I see a big difference and I'm not referring to size. In addition to Agholor clearly being the better runner with the ball and having better hands right now, he also has that effortless athleticism in terms of changing direction and adjusting to the ball that Perriman will never have. I don't care if Fred Biletnikoff is his WR coach.

 

[dhockster]

Because Sanchez (even though he bombed the playoff attempt) still supported that entire receiving core in his little stint. Especially in PPR. There's no reason to think Bradford is a terrible option barring injury. And worst case Sanchez comes in and does what he did before and is at least servicable. That isn't a massive downgrade for the position players.

People in here are talking Perriman has more opportunity I just don't see it as all that good. It appears that way, but whats the best WR year the Ravens have? Torrey in 2013 with 1128/4TD's seems like it. That isn't that good. At least we know a fantasy receiver can be super productive with Chip Kelley (Maclin last year 1318/10), whether that's Matthews or Agholor we won't know, but they can each play both inside/outside so I'm willing to bet on that. I can't remember one as good with Harbaugh.

Also it's not that I'm just a hater of Perriman, I really like Agholor and have him as my #3 WR this year. I am also down on Perriman so take what I say with a grain of salt. I just don't see as good a football player when I look at Perriman. Lets go through the boxes

Route running - Agholor > Perriman

Hands - Agholor > Perriman

Work Ethic - Agholor > Perriman

Physical skills - Perriman > Agholor

3 for Agholor, 1 for Perriman

Someone said you can't teach the size/speed Perriman has, but Agholor has to bulk up a bit and could be every bit as good at boxing out and being physical, he certainly has the attitude for it.

Regarding the bolded, Jackson the year before went 1,332/9. So under Kelly, 2 years, 2 career years for his #1 receiver. Jackson's supporting cast: Cooper/Avant/Ertz. Maclin's supporting cast: Cooper/Matthews/Ertz. Agholor's assumed supporting cast: Cooper/Matthews/Ertz with some Huff thrown in.

 

[Sabertooth]

I'm trying to keep my mind open to Perriman even though I still have Agholor ranked above him. I keep reading guys stating that you can't coach size and speed. Agreed. But I think the same can be said for smooth route running and hands. When was the last time a WR came in to the NFL who couldn't run routes and couldn't catch but quality coaching turned that all around and the guy became a fantasy stud.

I'd be curious to hear examples as well.

It's a straw man but for the sake of argument wasn't Josh Gordon considered pretty raw coming from Baylor?

 

[dhockster]

While it is far from a certainty that Sam Bradford will stay healthy, if he does that could bode well for Agholor.

Here is what Zach Ertz had to say about Bradford recently:

"We've been throwing for the past three weeks and I can honestly say I've thrown with Andrew, Nick [Foles] and other guys, and I don't think I've thrown with a guy who has a stronger arm than Sam Bradford," Ertz said.

The craziest thing about Bradford's arm strength is that he's been able to show it off despite the fact that he still doesn't have his "full legs underneath him." The Eagles new quarterback is still rehabbing the torn ACL he suffered in his left knee back in August, an injury that cost Bradford the entire 2014 season.

"He hasn't been able to really truly get his full legs underneath him," Ertz said. "But the ball still comes out effortlessly, and it's a lot of fun to run routes with him."

 

[5-ish Finkle]

When was the last time a WR came in to the NFL who couldn't run routes and couldn't catch but quality coaching turned that all around and the guy became a fantasy stud.

Owens probably qualifies. Hell, his drop issues never really went away either. In a lot of ways he is similar to Perriman in that regard (the drops are typically concentration related).

Burress' hands improved some over time too, and he could pretty much just run 9 routes where he'd outjump guys at MSU. He wasn't the complete skillet-mitted/2 route guy he was with the Steelers by the time he finished up with NY. Not like he became Jerry Rice, just improved over what he had been. His hands were truly awful when drafted.

 

[VarsityBlues123]

Do the Perriman supporters think that Trestman is going to change the offense/Flacco enough that it will produce better WR numbers? I think the top WR performance with Flacco is WR15, that is a bit concerning.

I think they call way more passing plays this year with Trestman. He had Forte in Chicago, he does not have a Forte in Baltimore even though Forsett is coming off a great year, he is older and not as good as Forte.

 

[Sabertooth]

I guess as I really dig into these guys, I love them both. I think the hotbird seat is 8 or 9. I think they will both be there. I think you get your choice at 8. My choice is Perriman.

I think Agholor has pretty rare work ethic and he's very polished. Reminds me of Greg Jennings. He just came in and belonged in the NFL right from day one.

But Perriman reminds me of a cross between Julio Jones and Chad Johnson.

 

[Slapdash]

I guess as I really dig into these guys, I love them both. I think the hotbird seat is 8 or 9. I think they will both be there. I think you get your choice at 8. My choice is Perriman.

Yep. I think anyone picking some of these 3rd round RBs over either of these guys is going to regret it.

Great thread.

 

[Sabertooth]

Yeah I can see Gurley, Gordon, Abdullah, and Yeldon before them, but that's it for me.

 

[mikmak8902]

When was the last time a WR came in to the NFL who couldn't run routes and couldn't catch but quality coaching turned that all around and the guy became a fantasy stud.

Owens probably qualifies. Hell, his drop issues never really went away either. In a lot of ways he is similar to Perriman in that regard (the drops are typically concentration related).

Burress' hands improved some over time too, and he could pretty much just run 9 routes where he'd outjump guys at MSU. He wasn't the complete skillet-mitted/2 route guy he was with the Steelers by the time he finished up with NY. Not like he became Jerry Rice, just improved over what he had been. His hands were truly awful when drafted.

This is a good comparison. TO was never overly smooth coming in and did have trouble running routes. I don't remember plaxico having trouble running routes in college and he was always very athletic.

So we have one instance so far of a WR that was big, fast, fairly stiff, a poor route runner, and had issues with dropped balls come into the NFL and become a fantasy stud ... or maybe I should say DIDN'T bust.

Now I wonder how many middle height receivers with solid route running, great after the catch skills, good hands, and excellent athleticism that were drafted later than guys that were bigger and faster and had "more upside" actually turned into fantasy studs.

I'm betting we start finding alot more examples.

 

[5-ish Finkle]

I don't remember plaxico having trouble running routes in college and he was always very athletic.

Then, respectfully, I think you're remembering wrong. Or he forgot how to do it between East Lansing and Pittsburgh. In his early days with the Steelers he pretty much had two routes "9" and "Run around trying to get open after Roethlisberger steps up on the pocket." I don't recall him doing much differently at MSU: Run downfield, outjump defender. Rinse, repeat.

Plax played slower than he timed, had bad hands, and didn't run great routes in his early days in the NFL. But he could jump, and when his QB would miss he'd miss high, so Roeth loved him. He could block downfield too, so Cowher loved him. He wasn't a great WR at all at that point though. Pretty much just a deep ball guy. He became a more refined/complete wideout as a Giant before the injuries/bullet wounds got to him.

 

[Sabertooth]

Superflex last night (None of these picks made by me):

1.08 Perriman

1.09 Parker

1.10 Agholor

1.11 Green-Beckham

 

[5-ish Finkle]

Had a recent rookie draft where I was able to secure the 1.9 and 1.10(out of 12). Drafted both Perriman and Agholor. Felt almost like stealing.

Almost.

 

[dickey moe]

Superflex last night (None of these picks made by me):

1.08 Perriman

1.09 Parker

1.10 Agholor

1.11 Green-Beckham

I can see that. I'm not sold on Parker being the consensus #3WR to be drafted in rookie drafts.

 

[mikmak8902]

I don't remember plaxico having trouble running routes in college and he was always very athletic.

Then, respectfully, I think you're remembering wrong. Or he forgot how to do it between East Lansing and Pittsburgh. In his early days with the Steelers he pretty much had two routes "9" and "Run around trying to get open after Roethlisberger steps up on the pocket." I don't recall him doing much differently at MSU: Run downfield, outjump defender. Rinse, repeat.

Plax played slower than he timed, had bad hands, and didn't run great routes in his early days in the NFL. But he could jump, and when his QB would miss he'd miss high, so Roeth loved him. He could block downfield too, so Cowher loved him. He wasn't a great WR at all at that point though. Pretty much just a deep ball guy. He became a more refined/complete wideout as a Giant before the injuries/bullet wounds got to him.

Fair enough. So there are 2 examples.

 

[Bob Magaw]

In four drafts I've been in so far, Agholor went before Perriman every time.

As far as a physical specimen and athletic phenom, in some ways Perriman reminds me of a smaller, faster mash up of Demaryius Thomas, Julio Jones and Dwayne Bowe.

 

[daveR]

I might be proven wrong, but I will not take Perriman. I look at it this way... The measurables are off the chart, yet he fell in the draft. If he were rock-solid doing what a WR gets paid to do, run good routes & catch the ball, he would have gone top-ten. I don't need a WR who can't catch any more than I need a QB that can't throw.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I forgot to mention something Louis (?) Riddick* said during the ESPN draft coverage. In his opinion, for a WR who can demonstrably make so many jaw dropping, spectacular catches, the drops may be the result of something other than fluctuating concentration. He cited the example of sometimes fixing it with something as mundane as contact lenses. It could be a possibility, not sure I would bank on it. I do like Perriman. A lot. Just like Agholor a bit more.

On Algohor, and if he is suspect as a dynasty WR if we cannot be assured in advance Chip Kelly will be the Eagles coach for a decade more. Without citing specific examples, there have been many previous instances when a good WRs didn't have the same HC for their entire career, and it didn't cause catastrophic, irreparable harm to their dynasty value.

* Last minute replacement for Ray Lewis due to the unrest in Baltimore, I thought he did a great job and was very insightful, and could be a rising star in ESPN draft coverage, kind of like Jeremiah was a few years ago.

 

[Xue]

I don't think we've heard anything at all about Perriman lacking work ethic. Not so sure on that one but you make good points. I find myself wanting to defend Perriman and I know that's not good.

If I'm being honest, I haven't heard anything either and just don't know about his work ethic. I make the assumption b/c of his father he SHOULD be further along and less of a project but I just don't know.

Horrible reason.

 

[Xue]

I might be proven wrong, but I will not take Perriman. I look at it this way... The measurables are off the chart, yet he fell in the draft. If he were rock-solid doing what a WR gets paid to do, run good routes & catch the ball, he would have gone top-ten. I don't need a WR who can't catch any more than I need a QB that can't throw.

Perriman fell in the draft? He would have gone top 10 if he played at WVU.

 

[Xue]

When was the last time a WR came in to the NFL who couldn't run routes and couldn't catch but quality coaching turned that all around and the guy became a fantasy stud.

Roddy White.

Perriman isn't as raw as people think. His release is better then White's and Parker's. He did some work with Chad Johnson right after the draft. A WR could probably learn more from Johnson than from most WR coaches.

 

[Zyphros]

I don't think we've heard anything at all about Perriman lacking work ethic. Not so sure on that one but you make good points. I find myself wanting to defend Perriman and I know that's not good.

If I'm being honest, I haven't heard anything either and just don't know about his work ethic. I make the assumption b/c of his father he SHOULD be further along and less of a project but I just don't know.

Horrible reason.

Yeah MY opinion's are horrible reasons... Been a while since you picked on one of my posts.

 

[Madden Curse]

If I had to pick today, Agholor, but I think they both have great upside. My earliest drafts aren't until August so I have the luxury of tabling this decision.

 

[Tau837]

I think Flacco's deep ball is being overrated in this thread.

I also think the most compelling point I have seen made in the thread is the back to back seasons Jackson and Maclin had in Chip's offense vs. the fact that the highest a WR has ever ranked with Flacco is WR18 (Mason in 2009) (FBG scoring). That seems to imply that Perriman's value is capped in a way that Agholor's is not.

 

[Xue]

I don't think we've heard anything at all about Perriman lacking work ethic. Not so sure on that one but you make good points. I find myself wanting to defend Perriman and I know that's not good.

If I'm being honest, I haven't heard anything either and just don't know about his work ethic. I make the assumption b/c of his father he SHOULD be further along and less of a project but I just don't know.

Horrible reason.

Yeah MY opinion's are horrible reasons... Been a while since you picked on one of my posts.

First you give the edge on Work Ethic to Agholor, then admit you don't know. Plenty of players with bad work ethic who didn't have dads who played. All your opinions aren't horrible. This one is.

 

[Xue]

I think Flacco's deep ball is being overrated in this thread.

I also think the most compelling point I have seen made in the thread is the back to back seasons Jackson and Maclin had in Chip's offense vs. the fact that the highest a WR has ever ranked with Flacco is WR18 (Mason in 2009) (FBG scoring). That seems to imply that Perriman's value is capped in a way that Agholor's is not.

The QB mostly responsible for Jackson's and Maclin's production isn't in the team anymore.

 

[Tau837]

I think Flacco's deep ball is being overrated in this thread.

I also think the most compelling point I have seen made in the thread is the back to back seasons Jackson and Maclin had in Chip's offense vs. the fact that the highest a WR has ever ranked with Flacco is WR18 (Mason in 2009) (FBG scoring). That seems to imply that Perriman's value is capped in a way that Agholor's is not.

The QB mostly responsible for Jackson's and Maclin's production isn't in the team anymore.

IMO the person most responsible for the production of Jackson and Maclin is Kelly, not Foles.

 

[Xue]

I think Flacco's deep ball is being overrated in this thread.

I also think the most compelling point I have seen made in the thread is the back to back seasons Jackson and Maclin had in Chip's offense vs. the fact that the highest a WR has ever ranked with Flacco is WR18 (Mason in 2009) (FBG scoring). That seems to imply that Perriman's value is capped in a way that Agholor's is not.

The QB mostly responsible for Jackson's and Maclin's production isn't in the team anymore.

IMO the person most responsible for the production of Jackson and Maclin is Kelly, not Foles.

Kelly is the reason Maclin's production was at the same level with Sanchez right?

Kelly is responsible for the production of Foles and Sanchez. He's responsible for the collective production of whoever the WRs are. To say he's responsible for a singular WR's production is flawed. It's the QB who ultimately decides who to throw the ball to. It's pretty amazing that Foles and Sanchez put up nearly identical numbers last season, despite each favoring a different WR.

Also, in Jackson's season, there was only Riley Cooper and a Rookie Ertz to steal targets. Pretty easy to be a lead dog. Now there's a second-year Mathews and third-year Ertz.

 

[Zyphros]

I don't think we've heard anything at all about Perriman lacking work ethic. Not so sure on that one but you make good points. I find myself wanting to defend Perriman and I know that's not good.

If I'm being honest, I haven't heard anything either and just don't know about his work ethic. I make the assumption b/c of his father he SHOULD be further along and less of a project but I just don't know.

Horrible reason.

Yeah MY opinion's are horrible reasons... Been a while since you picked on one of my posts.

First you give the edge on Work Ethic to Agholor, then admit you don't know. Plenty of players with bad work ethic who didn't have dads who played. All your opinions aren't horrible. This one is.

I fail to see how it's horrible. Agholor is KNOWN as a hard worker, it stands out when you read up about him. Perriman on the other hand doesn't stand out in that regard. I haven't seen it mentioned in the write-ups I have read or anything so it's fair to say that Agholor has the edge. There has been nothing to suggest Perriman is the superior player when it comes to working at his craft. So yes it's fair to point it out. Point me in the direction of Perriman's work ethic and I'll gladly change my statements.

Whose your pick Xue?

 

[Tau837]

I think Flacco's deep ball is being overrated in this thread.

I also think the most compelling point I have seen made in the thread is the back to back seasons Jackson and Maclin had in Chip's offense vs. the fact that the highest a WR has ever ranked with Flacco is WR18 (Mason in 2009) (FBG scoring). That seems to imply that Perriman's value is capped in a way that Agholor's is not.

The QB mostly responsible for Jackson's and Maclin's production isn't in the team anymore.

IMO the person most responsible for the production of Jackson and Maclin is Kelly, not Foles.

Kelly is the reason Maclin's production was at the same level with Sanchez right?

Kelly is responsible for the production of Foles and Sanchez. He's responsible for the collective production of whoever the WRs are. To say he's responsible for a singular WR's production is flawed. It's the QB who ultimately decides who to throw the ball to. It's pretty amazing that Foles and Sanchez put up nearly identical numbers last season, despite each favoring a different WR.

Also, in Jackson's season, there was only Riley Cooper and a Rookie Ertz to steal targets. Pretty easy to be a lead dog. Now there's a second-year Mathews and third-year Ertz.

You are welcome to your opinion. Agree to disagree.

 

[Xue]

I don't think we've heard anything at all about Perriman lacking work ethic. Not so sure on that one but you make good points. I find myself wanting to defend Perriman and I know that's not good.

If I'm being honest, I haven't heard anything either and just don't know about his work ethic. I make the assumption b/c of his father he SHOULD be further along and less of a project but I just don't know.

Horrible reason.

Yeah MY opinion's are horrible reasons... Been a while since you picked on one of my posts.

First you give the edge on Work Ethic to Agholor, then admit you don't know. Plenty of players with bad work ethic who didn't have dads who played. All your opinions aren't horrible. This one is.

I fail to see how it's horrible. Agholor is KNOWN as a hard worker, it stands out when you read up about him. Perriman on the other hand doesn't stand out in that regard. I haven't seen it mentioned in the write-ups I have read or anything so it's fair to say that Agholor has the edge. There has been nothing to suggest Perriman is the superior player when it comes to working at his craft. So yes it's fair to point it out. Point me in the direction of Perriman's work ethic and I'll gladly change my statements.

Whose your pick Xue?

Perhaps Agholor is known as a hard worker because he plays at a school where there is more coverage and the depth of that coverage is much deeper. How do we really know if Perriman wasn't a hard worker if no one was even aware of him to cover him during the season? How much of this "hard work" talk is just people repeating each other off of what they read or is it firsthand or secondhand accounts? Unless the person citing work ethic saw it with their own eyes, it's just fluff to me.

Like i stated earlier, Perriman sought out and worked out with Chad Johnson within a week after the draft. I guess the guy doesn't wanna get better. LOL. He got to work with one of best route runners of all time.

Are you suggesting that since Perriman isn't as "superior" at Agholor, he doesn't put in the work? Marqise Lee was a hard worker, how come he isn't good at his craft as Agholor? Agholor isn't as superior as Perriman when it comes to body control and adjusting to errant passes. He must not work hard enough in that area. Agholor isn't as fast a Perriman. I guess he doesn't do enough speed work.

When I watch Perriman, I see him with a better release than White and Parker. I guess White and Parker don't work hard enough. How could he have developed a release as good as that if he didn't work at it? White is definitely more raw than Agholor; Are you ready to proclaim that White isn't a hard worker? Probably not, since you're a big fan of his.

I don't disagree that Agholor is a hard worker. Just because you don't hear someone is a hard worker doesn't mean they aren't.

 

[Xue]

I think Flacco's deep ball is being overrated in this thread.

I also think the most compelling point I have seen made in the thread is the back to back seasons Jackson and Maclin had in Chip's offense vs. the fact that the highest a WR has ever ranked with Flacco is WR18 (Mason in 2009) (FBG scoring). That seems to imply that Perriman's value is capped in a way that Agholor's is not.

The QB mostly responsible for Jackson's and Maclin's production isn't in the team anymore.

IMO the person most responsible for the production of Jackson and Maclin is Kelly, not Foles.

Kelly is the reason Maclin's production was at the same level with Sanchez right?

Kelly is responsible for the production of Foles and Sanchez. He's responsible for the collective production of whoever the WRs are. To say he's responsible for a singular WR's production is flawed. It's the QB who ultimately decides who to throw the ball to. It's pretty amazing that Foles and Sanchez put up nearly identical numbers last season, despite each favoring a different WR.

Also, in Jackson's season, there was only Riley Cooper and a Rookie Ertz to steal targets. Pretty easy to be a lead dog. Now there's a second-year Mathews and third-year Ertz.

You are welcome to your opinion. Agree to disagree.

Opinion based on facts. How would you explain Foles and Sanchez putting up near identical numbers, yet the production of Maclin (the supposed leading WR in that offense) dipped with Sanchez? So Kelly told Sanchez to throw to Maclin less? If so, who's to say any specific WR will be the lead guy in that offense? Yes Maclin finished the year as the lead guy, but it was entirely "situation-based". That situation was Foles starting. Do we know who Bradford is going to fall in love with?

 

[Tau837]

I think Flacco's deep ball is being overrated in this thread.

I also think the most compelling point I have seen made in the thread is the back to back seasons Jackson and Maclin had in Chip's offense vs. the fact that the highest a WR has ever ranked with Flacco is WR18 (Mason in 2009) (FBG scoring). That seems to imply that Perriman's value is capped in a way that Agholor's is not.

The QB mostly responsible for Jackson's and Maclin's production isn't in the team anymore.

IMO the person most responsible for the production of Jackson and Maclin is Kelly, not Foles.

Kelly is the reason Maclin's production was at the same level with Sanchez right?Kelly is responsible for the production of Foles and Sanchez. He's responsible for the collective production of whoever the WRs are. To say he's responsible for a singular WR's production is flawed. It's the QB who ultimately decides who to throw the ball to. It's pretty amazing that Foles and Sanchez put up nearly identical numbers last season, despite each favoring a different WR.

Also, in Jackson's season, there was only Riley Cooper and a Rookie Ertz to steal targets. Pretty easy to be a lead dog. Now there's a second-year Mathews and third-year Ertz.

You are welcome to your opinion. Agree to disagree.

Opinion based on facts. How would you explain Foles and Sanchez putting up near identical numbers, yet the production of Maclin (the supposed leading WR in that offense) dipped with Sanchez? So Kelly told Sanchez to throw to Maclin less? If so, who's to say any specific WR will be the lead guy in that offense? Yes Maclin finished the year as the lead guy, but it was entirely "situation-based". That situation was Foles starting. Do we know who Bradford is going to fall in love with?

Since you are talking about facts, how about the fact that Flacco has never had a WR finish ranked higher than #18? I notice you ignored that fact.

 

[pghrob]

I don't think we've heard anything at all about Perriman lacking work ethic. Not so sure on that one but you make good points. I find myself wanting to defend Perriman and I know that's not good.

If I'm being honest, I haven't heard anything either and just don't know about his work ethic. I make the assumption b/c of his father he SHOULD be further along and less of a project but I just don't know.

Horrible reason.

Yeah MY opinion's are horrible reasons... Been a while since you picked on one of my posts.

First you give the edge on Work Ethic to Agholor, then admit you don't know. Plenty of players with bad work ethic who didn't have dads who played. All your opinions aren't horrible. This one is.

I fail to see how it's horrible. Agholor is KNOWN as a hard worker, it stands out when you read up about him. Perriman on the other hand doesn't stand out in that regard. I haven't seen it mentioned in the write-ups I have read or anything so it's fair to say that Agholor has the edge. There has been nothing to suggest Perriman is the superior player when it comes to working at his craft. So yes it's fair to point it out. Point me in the direction of Perriman's work ethic and I'll gladly change my statements.

Whose your pick Xue?

Perhaps Agholor is known as a hard worker because he plays at a school where there is more coverage and the depth of that coverage is much deeper. How do we really know if Perriman wasn't a hard worker if no one was even aware of him to cover him during the season? How much of this "hard work" talk is just people repeating each other off of what they read or is it firsthand or secondhand accounts? Unless the person citing work ethic saw it with their own eyes, it's just fluff to me.

Like i stated earlier, Perriman sought out and worked out with Chad Johnson within a week after the draft. I guess the guy doesn't wanna get better. LOL. He got to work with one of best route runners of all time.

Are you suggesting that since Perriman isn't as "superior" at Agholor, he doesn't put in the work? Marqise Lee was a hard worker, how come he isn't good at his craft as Agholor? Agholor isn't as superior as Perriman when it comes to body control and adjusting to errant passes. He must not work hard enough in that area. Agholor isn't as fast a Perriman. I guess he doesn't do enough speed work.

When I watch Perriman, I see him with a better release than White and Parker. I guess White and Parker don't work hard enough. How could he have developed a release as good as that if he didn't work at it? White is definitely more raw than Agholor; Are you ready to proclaim that White isn't a hard worker? Probably not, since you're a big fan of his.

I don't disagree that Agholor is a hard worker. Just because you don't hear someone is a hard worker doesn't mean they aren't.

My impression of Agholor is that he approaches the game like Antonio Brown. Antonio Brown is reportedly a practice freak in the same mold as Jerry Rice was. If Agholor works to refine his skills to be a more precise pro WR, then he is going to be better, regardless of if Perriman possesses more natural talent. If Perriman works to develop his skills and precision, then he should be better.

Antonio Brown does not have great talent. Look at his combine numbers. But what Brown has is precision and skill, honed by tremendous dedication to being great. Pitted with Big Ben, he is a fantasy asset. I see the same kind of potential with Agholor and the Chip Kelly offense. That is is why I have him higher than Perriman in Baltimore.

If Trestman and Flacco and Steve Smith can develop Perriman the way that Trestman and Cutler and Brandon Marshall developed Alshon Jeffery in Chicago, Perriman won't be a slouch. I think that is why they are so closely ranked. Both have decent chance at being good fantasy WR's.

 

[Sabertooth]

I'll see your Jerry Rice and Antonio Brown, I'll raise you Mike Evans and Andre Johnson.

They both might end up being fine options. I might be more of a preference thing or league rules things. I'd be thrilled with either to be quite honest. Because we don't know what's going to happen. Hard work is great. Now there is hard work and then there's Jerry ####### Rice hard work. Agholor might be on that level but there is a lot of hype around the draft and odds are he's not totally insane to the point of Rice.

But I never hear about Mike Evans or OBJ being insane about their work ethic. They are both physical specimens who work plenty hard at their craft no doubt.

There is no magic formula. Talent, hard work, heart, luck, and situation all play a role. I'd give the talent nod to Perriman while giving the hard work nod to Agholor. But those are just two factors.

 

[Sabertooth]

If I had a dollar for every guy who I've heard "Is the first guy here in the morning and the last guy to leave." I wouldn't need to work. It seems each team has a half dozen of those guys nowadays.