Annonymous exposes Steubenville Rape Case (1 Viewer)

[Henry Ford]

Pitts wouldn't it be nice if girls would just learn to not get raped already....16 year old boys can drink with impunity, but girls, well hell they are just putting them in a position to get rapedand if they do, we'll sure as hell make sure we point out they are to blame

Change the word blame to responsibility. Then deny that it means the same thing as blame.

 

[Henry Ford]

I agree with that in a legal sense but how would that work in the real world? If I ask a girl if she wants to have sex and she answers yes, is it my responsibility to make she she is within the legal definition of sobriety or is this a case of "if you break it you bought it"?

Scooby mentioned earlier that alcohol can make some of these issues tricky. If we were talking about a case where a girl and boy are both drunk and engage in "consensual" sex that later turns into a rape allegation, that would be one thing. This isn't that thing though. Nobody as far as I know is saying that the girl in this case was just a little tipsy -- she was being carried around. This isn't a shades-of-gray issue.

When I was in college in the early 90s there was a flashpoint date rape case involving a member of our soccer team. Speaking about it in class, my media law professor surprised me by saying that there had never been a conviction for date rape in the county that housed my mid-sized public university. That was shocking to me then, but it doesn't really shock me now. Lack of consent is an element of the offense. In most cases, there are no witnesses. And if you have testimony that a victim was drinking and engaging with the guy, it's not surprising that the prosecution is going to have a hard time establishing, beyond a reasonable doubt, that there was no consent.But, of course, this case is different. I don't think we need to jump down pittsdown's throat here, though. It's not blaming the victim to say that this girl might have exhibited crappy judgment. 16 year old girls often do. We could even say that some bad outcomes are natural consequences of that type of judgment, such as a trip to the emergency room for alcohol poisoning. Gang rape, however, is not one of those natural consequences.

many people who are victims of crimes could have done things differently to avoid ityet is is with rape that we most often feel the need to point this outWhile I do not recommend it, a woman should be able to pass out at a party and STILL have the expectation that no one is going to rape her, because rape is a vile crime that any reasonable human being would not consider partaking in no matter his state or th state of the woman. Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

Or "oh, man, I don't remember last night at all. Better check nd make sure ten people I've known for years didn't repeatedly rape me and post pictures on the internet."

 

[Aerial Assault]

Pitts wouldn't it be nice if girls would just learn to not get raped already....16 year old boys can drink with impunity, but girls, well hell they are just putting them in a position to get rapedand if they do, we'll sure as hell make sure we point out they are to blame

Change the word blame to responsibility. Then deny that it means the same thing as blame.

"we'll sure as hell make sure we point out they are to responsibility"?

 

[B-Deep]

I agree with that in a legal sense but how would that work in the real world? If I ask a girl if she wants to have sex and she answers yes, is it my responsibility to make she she is within the legal definition of sobriety or is this a case of "if you break it you bought it"?

Scooby mentioned earlier that alcohol can make some of these issues tricky. If we were talking about a case where a girl and boy are both drunk and engage in "consensual" sex that later turns into a rape allegation, that would be one thing. This isn't that thing though. Nobody as far as I know is saying that the girl in this case was just a little tipsy -- she was being carried around. This isn't a shades-of-gray issue.

When I was in college in the early 90s there was a flashpoint date rape case involving a member of our soccer team. Speaking about it in class, my media law professor surprised me by saying that there had never been a conviction for date rape in the county that housed my mid-sized public university. That was shocking to me then, but it doesn't really shock me now. Lack of consent is an element of the offense. In most cases, there are no witnesses. And if you have testimony that a victim was drinking and engaging with the guy, it's not surprising that the prosecution is going to have a hard time establishing, beyond a reasonable doubt, that there was no consent.But, of course, this case is different. I don't think we need to jump down pittsdown's throat here, though. It's not blaming the victim to say that this girl might have exhibited crappy judgment. 16 year old girls often do. We could even say that some bad outcomes are natural consequences of that type of judgment, such as a trip to the emergency room for alcohol poisoning. Gang rape, however, is not one of those natural consequences.

many people who are victims of crimes could have done things differently to avoid ityet is is with rape that we most often feel the need to point this outWhile I do not recommend it, a woman should be able to pass out at a party and STILL have the expectation that no one is going to rape her, because rape is a vile crime that any reasonable human being would not consider partaking in no matter his state or th state of the woman. Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

Or "oh, man, I don't remember last night at all. Better check nd make sure ten people I've known for years didn't repeatedly rape me and post pictures on the internet."

exactly

 

[Henry Ford]

Pitts wouldn't it be nice if girls would just learn to not get raped already....16 year old boys can drink with impunity, but girls, well hell they are just putting them in a position to get rapedand if they do, we'll sure as hell make sure we point out they are to blame

Change the word blame to responsibility. Then deny that it means the same thing as blame.

"we'll sure as hell make sure we point out they are to responsibility"?

I should also have said "and change the other words around so you don't sound like a dip### like I just did.""We'll sure as hell make sure we point out they bear responsibility." or "are responsible."

 

[Doug B]

Blaming the girl for a crime committed against her is horrendous but do you think she had any responsibility to herself to not put herself in such a dangerous situation (i.e. to not be so stupid? 16 isn't babe in the woods territory)?

No -- I think she bears absolutely no responsbility at all in this case. The rapists had the choice to keep their junk in their pants -- that trumps all. No nuance. No gray area.In any case, partying with friends is not typically perceived as a "dangerous situation".

 

[B-Deep]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

Never take a drink from anyone or let your drink out of your sight. Don’t show too much cleavage. Be aware of your surroundings at all times. Never go to a boy’s room alone. If it comes to it, go for the eyes, the nose, the balls. Always stay with a group of girls…safety in numbers. You can’t trust him, even if he seems nice.

These are all the rules I was taught growing up. Parents, teachers, media, all told me I had to be careful not to get raped. Because I was a girl. And the responsibility was on me.

I’m so ####### sick of it.

I don’t have daughters that have to be taught these rules. I have sons. Three sons. And instead, I will teach them what seems like a pretty basic concept that should be taught to all sons: DON’T RAPE PEOPLE!

Like everyone else, I’ve followed the Steubenville rape trial with horror and disgust. My horror and disgust is directed toward Michael Nodianos, who spent twelve minutes entertaining his friends with jokes about the rape they had all just witnessed. My horror and disgust is directed toward Mark Cole II who shot a video of his friend raping someone and didn’t see anything wrong with it until the next day. My horror and disgust is directed toward Evan Westlake and Cody Saltsman and Anthony Craig and every other person who was witness to and complicit in the RAPE of a 16 year old girl and instead of stopping it, saw fit to shoot photos, video and share to social media. My horror and disgust is directed toward Trent Mays and Ma’lik Richmond, the two boys who MADE A DECISION to haul an incapacitated girl from party to party for use as an object of humiliation and degradation. The two boys who MADE A DECISION to repeatedly penetrate a barely conscious girl (if she was conscious at all). The two boys who MADE A DECISION for a girl who didn’t have a say in the matter.

The two boys who CNN’s Poppy Harlow is feeling bad for. Because they have to face consequences for their actions.

Never, at any point in following this story, did I stop and think, “Man…that sucks for those rapists.”

You know why? Because they are rapists. Yes, they are young. Yes, they are stupid. Yes, they made a mistake. Yes, they had good grades. Yes, they were athletes. Yes, they are someone’s sons. Yes, they have ####ed up their futures. Not a single one of those facts excuses them from the consequences of raping someone.

There seems to be some sort of ####ed up public opinion that we should pity these boys because, hey, we all do dumb stuff when we’re young. Because it could have been our sons. And to that I say, bull####.

We need to stop letting it be our sons.

We need to teach our sons that no means no. And that silence means no. And that drunkenness means no. And that being passed out means no. And that “I don’t know” or “I’m not sure” or “maybe we shouldn’t do this” means no.

We need to teach our sons that women and girls are actual people. They’re not just bodies. They’re not just holes. They’re not inanimate objects to be used at will.

We need to teach our sons that degrading women isn’t funny in any context.

We need to teach our sons that watching something happen and not intervening is every bit as bad as participating.

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

I don’t have any daughters. I am not tasked with teaching them how to try not to get raped. But this isn’t a problem with our daughters. We shouldn’t have to teach them how to stop rape.

We need to teach our sons.

 

[Otis]

I'm sure its been mentioned but I can't believe how many people in the comment section of these articles suggest the girl is somehow to blame.

Blaming the girl for a crime committed against her is horrendous.

That was a really smart and compassionate place to end that sentence. Good decision.

 

[Henry Ford]

Bit of a long read but I think it's worthwhile.

"A Letter To My Sons About Stopping Rape"

Spoiler

Dear Boys,

Some really horrible things happened to someone who could be one of your friends, and it was done by some people who could be your friends. You're 11 and almost-8 now, so the incident that made me write this letter isn't something you've heard about, but this stuff keeps happening, unfortunately. So I need to talk to you about it.

First of all, I know we talk all the time about how special your bodies are, and how you’re the only one who gets to decide what to do with your body. I’ve never made you put anything in your mouth that you didn’t want to, or touch anyone you didn’t want to, or talk to anyone you didn’t want to, because I wanted you to understand that you and you alone control your boundaries. We worked on blowing a kiss so you could show that you liked someone without having to touch them, and high fives if you were ok touching them but only with your hand. We talked all the time about not letting people tell you that what you wanted was wrong or that they knew better, and that you should always always tell your dad or grandma or me if anyone makes you feel uncomfortable.

And we talk all the time about making sure that if you’re touching someone else that they want you to be touching them. That if they say “No” you have to stop right away (even if it’s just fake-punching your brother) and that even if they aren’t saying “No” you need to make sure they’re still enjoying it. You know how sometimes you like to be tickled and sometimes you don’t? Well, everyone’s like that, so even if they liked it when you did it yesterday, you should still make sure they really want you to today, whatever kind of touching it is.

Now I’m going to talk about sex. I know you know “how it works” because we’ve been talking about it ever since you two were little, since before you could read, and you know all about sperm and eggs and penises and ######s and vulvas and orgasms and condoms and all that. And I know I told you it feels good and you had a hard time seeing how that could be true but took my word for it. Well, the thing I didn’t tell you is that it feels unbelievably amazing when you’re doing it with someone who really wants to be doing it with you. Like, better than popcorn followed by ice cream, or a Supah Ninjas marathon, or two snow days in a row. You know how excited I get when I get a new pair of shoes? It’s like 500 times better than that, when the person you’re doing it with is so excited to be doing it with you that they start asking you for it.

This is what I want you to wait for. I want you to wait to have sex until the person you’re with asks you for it. Tells you they need you now, and that they can’t wait, and they want it. Calls you by your name and asks for it.

If you’re ever in a situation in which someone is asking you for it and you don’t want to have sex with that person, don’t do it. And if you’re ever in a situation in which you want to have sex but the other person doesn’t ask you for it, don’t do it. It’s only good if you both want it, and can tell each other you want it, and are sure you both want it. Otherwise someone’s going to get hurt. And romance is weird enough without hurting other people when you can stop yourself (and you can always stop yourself--that goes along with having opposable thumbs).

This letter is almost over but this next part is super-important: Not everyone you know has been taught all the stuff we’ve talked about. You are going to know people, and maybe even be friends with people, who think it’s ok to hurt other people in a lot of ways. One of those ways is sex. I know you’re going to hear other boys say things about girls, or sometimes about other boys, that means they don’t care about those girls’ feelings or bodies. When you do, I need you to step in. All you have to do is say something like, “Dude, that’s not cool” or something that lets the person saying something nasty know that it’s not ok. Remember that everyone wants to fit in. If you can take control of the mood in the room by letting them know nasty talk isn’t ok, they’ll stop so they don’t look like an idiot.

Remember how we talk all the time about how we’re the people who help, who fix things when there’s a problem or someone’s in trouble? You may get the chance to do that someday. Because those boys who say nasty things about girls may actually do something to those girls. If you are ever anywhere where boys start hurting a girl, or touching her in any way that she doesn’t want, you need to step in. If she’s asleep or drunk or passed out or drugged and can’t say “no,” you need to step in. Remember, it’s not good unless both people can say they want it. If a girl isn’t saying anything, that doesn’t mean she wants it. If she isn’t saying specifically that she wants it, then it’s wrong.

Here’s how you should step in:

1. If it’s safe for you to say something, say something. In a loud, commanding voice, tell the guy who’s doing it to stop, and make sure he knows it’s not ok and he can’t be an ####### (sorry to curse, but by the time you’re in this situation you’ll be cursing, too). Then help the girl get to someplace safe, and call her parents. (Even if she thinks she’s going to get in trouble, call her parents. If they’re mad at her, I can talk to them and take care of it.)

2. If it’s not safe for you to say something, leave the room quietly and calmly and call me. I do not care if you’re someplace you’re not supposed to be, or not the place you told me you were, or in Canada or someplace that would normally get you in a lot of trouble. You get immunity if you’re calling for help. My phone is always on, and it does not matter what time of day or night it is. If I don’t pick up right away, call your dad, and the same immunity rules apply. Call one of us and give us the address of where you are and we will come help. Then hang up and call 911. Tell them the address and that there’s an assault going on. They might want you to stay on the line with them until the police get there.

3. Even if you don't like the girl, step in. Even if she's been mean to you or snobby, or someone told you she did something you think is gross. No matter what she did, no one should hurt her. If you step in, the next day you can go back to hating her. If you don't step in, well, how are you any different from the loser who's hurting her? You know who you are. Step in.

4. Do not worry that everyone will hate you if you stop the cool kids from doing something. Stopping someone from hurting another person makes you a hero. This is what you’re here to do. And if there are people who don’t like it, screw them. Your dad and I will do anything it takes to make sure that anyone who doesn’t like your being a hero stays away from you and keeps their mouths shut.

We have been practicing for this for a long time, for being the ones who help. Remember when we were in the middle of the knife fight on the subway and we got the other mom and kid out of the way? Remember when we helped my friend move away from her scary husband? Remember all those times we took pictures of those freaky dudes staring at the little kids at the playground? We’ve been practicing to step in and help someone else. You can do it. I have faith in you.

Love,

Mom

 

[Doug B]

I agree with that in a legal sense but how would that work in the real world? If I ask a girl if she wants to have sex and she answers yes, is it my responsibility to make she she is within the legal definition of sobriety or is this a case of "if you break it you bought it"?

In real life? Yes, it very much IS your responsibility.Pro tip: Put the drunk chick to bed. Drive home. If she likes you, you can get with her withoiut the aid of a 12-pack.

 

[Henry Ford]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I see we're on the same page, here.

 

[Henry Ford]

I agree with that in a legal sense but how would that work in the real world? If I ask a girl if she wants to have sex and she answers yes, is it my responsibility to make she she is within the legal definition of sobriety or is this a case of "if you break it you bought it"?

In real life? Yes, it very much IS your responsibility.Pro tip: Put the drunk chick to bed. Drive home. If she likes you, you can get with her withoiut the aid of a 12-pack.

Plus, if you're the guy who put her to bed in that situation, she'll feel safe with you in the future.Pro tip: you have no idea the kind of things a chick will do with you if she feels safe with you and attracted to you. It's almost literally unbelievable.

 

[Otis]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

 

[Henry Ford]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Good work in here guys.

 

[igbomb]

I'm sure its been mentioned but I can't believe how many people in the comment section of these articles suggest the girl is somehow to blame.

Blaming the girl for a crime committed against her is horrendous but do you think she had any responsibility to herself to not put herself in such a dangerous situation (i.e. to not be so stupid? 16 isn't babe in the woods territory)? Of course if she was drugged, or deceived in some other ways, the onus comes off of her...and before everyone jumps down my throat, I am not defending the rapists; they got what they deserve.

I don’t get why people keep wanting to bring this up. Is it a smart thing to talk to our kids about not making poor decisions? Of course it is. But to throw it out there during the discussion of a specific incident, one in which the victim has been taking an unfair share of blame already, just smacks of trying to pin some share of it on her. I know you’ve said you don’t blame her, and everyone else is offering the same caveat in this forum. But if that is the case, why even bring it up? It’s insensitive at a minimum. Kids, like this girl, do dumb things. Other kids, like the boys, do horrendous things. I don’t think it’s lost on anyone that they should tell their kids not to get fall-down drunk. But maybe you’d be better served trying to start a discussion on how to get kids to stop acting like monsters.

 

[Rayderr]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

Never take a drink from anyone or let your drink out of your sight. Don’t show too much cleavage. Be aware of your surroundings at all times. Never go to a boy’s room alone. If it comes to it, go for the eyes, the nose, the balls. Always stay with a group of girls…safety in numbers. You can’t trust him, even if he seems nice.

These are all the rules I was taught growing up. Parents, teachers, media, all told me I had to be careful not to get raped. Because I was a girl. And the responsibility was on me.

I’m so ####### sick of it.

I don’t have daughters that have to be taught these rules. I have sons. Three sons. And instead, I will teach them what seems like a pretty basic concept that should be taught to all sons: DON’T RAPE PEOPLE!

Like everyone else, I’ve followed the Steubenville rape trial with horror and disgust. My horror and disgust is directed toward Michael Nodianos, who spent twelve minutes entertaining his friends with jokes about the rape they had all just witnessed. My horror and disgust is directed toward Mark Cole II who shot a video of his friend raping someone and didn’t see anything wrong with it until the next day. My horror and disgust is directed toward Evan Westlake and Cody Saltsman and Anthony Craig and every other person who was witness to and complicit in the RAPE of a 16 year old girl and instead of stopping it, saw fit to shoot photos, video and share to social media. My horror and disgust is directed toward Trent Mays and Ma’lik Richmond, the two boys who MADE A DECISION to haul an incapacitated girl from party to party for use as an object of humiliation and degradation. The two boys who MADE A DECISION to repeatedly penetrate a barely conscious girl (if she was conscious at all). The two boys who MADE A DECISION for a girl who didn’t have a say in the matter.

The two boys who CNN’s Poppy Harlow is feeling bad for. Because they have to face consequences for their actions.

Never, at any point in following this story, did I stop and think, “Man…that sucks for those rapists.”

You know why? Because they are rapists. Yes, they are young. Yes, they are stupid. Yes, they made a mistake. Yes, they had good grades. Yes, they were athletes. Yes, they are someone’s sons. Yes, they have ####ed up their futures. Not a single one of those facts excuses them from the consequences of raping someone.

There seems to be some sort of ####ed up public opinion that we should pity these boys because, hey, we all do dumb stuff when we’re young. Because it could have been our sons. And to that I say, bull####.

We need to stop letting it be our sons.

We need to teach our sons that no means no. And that silence means no. And that drunkenness means no. And that being passed out means no. And that “I don’t know” or “I’m not sure” or “maybe we shouldn’t do this” means no.

We need to teach our sons that women and girls are actual people. They’re not just bodies. They’re not just holes. They’re not inanimate objects to be used at will.

We need to teach our sons that degrading women isn’t funny in any context.

We need to teach our sons that watching something happen and not intervening is every bit as bad as participating.

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

I don’t have any daughters. I am not tasked with teaching them how to try not to get raped. But this isn’t a problem with our daughters. We shouldn’t have to teach them how to stop rape.

We need to teach our sons.

Why can't we do both? Teach our sons not to rape, and teach our daughters to avoid dangerous situations? If stopping rape was as simple as telling our sons "Don't rape people" it would be a crime of the past already. As the father of a daughter, I don't intend to take the attitude "all those boys were told not to rape women, so my daughter isn't in danger."

 

[IvanKaramazov]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

I agree with most of what you posted, but you are a bad parent if you don't teach your daughters about watching out for themselves. It goes without saying that we should teach our sons to respect women, but these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Henry Ford]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

Never take a drink from anyone or let your drink out of your sight. Don’t show too much cleavage. Be aware of your surroundings at all times. Never go to a boy’s room alone. If it comes to it, go for the eyes, the nose, the balls. Always stay with a group of girls…safety in numbers. You can’t trust him, even if he seems nice.

These are all the rules I was taught growing up. Parents, teachers, media, all told me I had to be careful not to get raped. Because I was a girl. And the responsibility was on me.

I’m so ####### sick of it.

I don’t have daughters that have to be taught these rules. I have sons. Three sons. And instead, I will teach them what seems like a pretty basic concept that should be taught to all sons: DON’T RAPE PEOPLE!

Like everyone else, I’ve followed the Steubenville rape trial with horror and disgust. My horror and disgust is directed toward Michael Nodianos, who spent twelve minutes entertaining his friends with jokes about the rape they had all just witnessed. My horror and disgust is directed toward Mark Cole II who shot a video of his friend raping someone and didn’t see anything wrong with it until the next day. My horror and disgust is directed toward Evan Westlake and Cody Saltsman and Anthony Craig and every other person who was witness to and complicit in the RAPE of a 16 year old girl and instead of stopping it, saw fit to shoot photos, video and share to social media. My horror and disgust is directed toward Trent Mays and Ma’lik Richmond, the two boys who MADE A DECISION to haul an incapacitated girl from party to party for use as an object of humiliation and degradation. The two boys who MADE A DECISION to repeatedly penetrate a barely conscious girl (if she was conscious at all). The two boys who MADE A DECISION for a girl who didn’t have a say in the matter.

The two boys who CNN’s Poppy Harlow is feeling bad for. Because they have to face consequences for their actions.

Never, at any point in following this story, did I stop and think, “Man…that sucks for those rapists.”

You know why? Because they are rapists. Yes, they are young. Yes, they are stupid. Yes, they made a mistake. Yes, they had good grades. Yes, they were athletes. Yes, they are someone’s sons. Yes, they have ####ed up their futures. Not a single one of those facts excuses them from the consequences of raping someone.

There seems to be some sort of ####ed up public opinion that we should pity these boys because, hey, we all do dumb stuff when we’re young. Because it could have been our sons. And to that I say, bull####.

We need to stop letting it be our sons.

We need to teach our sons that no means no. And that silence means no. And that drunkenness means no. And that being passed out means no. And that “I don’t know” or “I’m not sure” or “maybe we shouldn’t do this” means no.

We need to teach our sons that women and girls are actual people. They’re not just bodies. They’re not just holes. They’re not inanimate objects to be used at will.

We need to teach our sons that degrading women isn’t funny in any context.

We need to teach our sons that watching something happen and not intervening is every bit as bad as participating.

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

I don’t have any daughters. I am not tasked with teaching them how to try not to get raped. But this isn’t a problem with our daughters. We shouldn’t have to teach them how to stop rape.

We need to teach our sons.

Why can't we do both? Teach our sons not to rape, and teach our daughters to avoid dangerous situations? If stopping rape was as simple as telling our sons "Don't rape people" it would be a crime of the past already. As the father of a daughter, I don't intend to take the attitude "all those boys were told not to rape women, so my daughter isn't in danger."

That's especially a good idea because not all those boys were told not to rape women.

 

[Henry Ford]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

I agree with most of what you posted, but you are a bad parent if you don't teach your daughters about watching out for themselves. It goes without saying that we should teach our sons to respect women, but these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you can show me where it says not to do that.

 

[Rayderr]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

I agree with most of what you posted, but you are a bad parent if you don't teach your daughters about watching out for themselves. It goes without saying that we should teach our sons to respect women, but these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you can show me where it says not to do that.

Look at the bolded.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

I agree with most of what you posted, but you are a bad parent if you don't teach your daughters about watching out for themselves. It goes without saying that we should teach our sons to respect women, but these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you can show me where it says not to do that.

That's the tone I picked up of pretty much the entire thing, especially the "But this isn’t a problem with our daughters. We shouldn’t have to teach them how to stop rape" part.

 

[Aerial Assault]

Pitts wouldn't it be nice if girls would just learn to not get raped already....16 year old boys can drink with impunity, but girls, well hell they are just putting them in a position to get rapedand if they do, we'll sure as hell make sure we point out they are to blame

Change the word blame to responsibility. Then deny that it means the same thing as blame.

"we'll sure as hell make sure we point out they are to responsibility"?

I should also have said "and change the other words around so you don't sound like a dip### like I just did.""We'll sure as hell make sure we point out they bear responsibility." or "are responsible."

Thanks. I seriously didn't get what you were saying. But I don't think the girl was responsible here one bit either.

 

[Henry Ford]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

I agree with most of what you posted, but you are a bad parent if you don't teach your daughters about watching out for themselves. It goes without saying that we should teach our sons to respect women, but these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you can show me where it says not to do that.

Look at the bolded.

I'm sick of shaving every morning. This means we shouldn't shave?

 

[Henry Ford]

That's the tone I picked up of pretty much the entire thing, especially the "But this isn’t a problem with our daughters. We shouldn’t have to teach them how to stop rape" part.

"Shouldn't have to" doesn't equal "don't have to." In fact, it means quite the opposite in this context.

 

[Aerial Assault]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

I agree with most of what you posted, but you are a bad parent if you don't teach your daughters about watching out for themselves. It goes without saying that we should teach our sons to respect women, but these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you can show me where it says not to do that.

That's the tone I picked up of pretty much the entire thing, especially the "But this isn’t a problem with our daughters. We shouldn’t have to teach them how to stop rape" part.

I think it's mostly an idealistic sentiment, aspiring towards some sort of utopia. But it's not grounded in reality; we may as well indicate how sick we are of having to lock our doors. As mentioned, we can try to eliminate any cultural behaviors that seem to promote rape *and* continue to encourage women to look out for their own safety.

 

[Rayderr]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

I agree with most of what you posted, but you are a bad parent if you don't teach your daughters about watching out for themselves. It goes without saying that we should teach our sons to respect women, but these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you can show me where it says not to do that.

Look at the bolded.

I'm sick of shaving every morning. This means we shouldn't shave?

Lots of men have grown beards for that reason.

 

[coyote5]

Bit of a long read but I think it's worthwhile.

"A Letter To My Sons About Stopping Rape"

Spoiler

Dear Boys,

Some really horrible things happened to someone who could be one of your friends, and it was done by some people who could be your friends. You're 11 and almost-8 now, so the incident that made me write this letter isn't something you've heard about, but this stuff keeps happening, unfortunately. So I need to talk to you about it.

First of all, I know we talk all the time about how special your bodies are, and how you’re the only one who gets to decide what to do with your body. I’ve never made you put anything in your mouth that you didn’t want to, or touch anyone you didn’t want to, or talk to anyone you didn’t want to, because I wanted you to understand that you and you alone control your boundaries. We worked on blowing a kiss so you could show that you liked someone without having to touch them, and high fives if you were ok touching them but only with your hand. We talked all the time about not letting people tell you that what you wanted was wrong or that they knew better, and that you should always always tell your dad or grandma or me if anyone makes you feel uncomfortable.

And we talk all the time about making sure that if you’re touching someone else that they want you to be touching them. That if they say “No” you have to stop right away (even if it’s just fake-punching your brother) and that even if they aren’t saying “No” you need to make sure they’re still enjoying it. You know how sometimes you like to be tickled and sometimes you don’t? Well, everyone’s like that, so even if they liked it when you did it yesterday, you should still make sure they really want you to today, whatever kind of touching it is.

Now I’m going to talk about sex. I know you know “how it works” because we’ve been talking about it ever since you two were little, since before you could read, and you know all about sperm and eggs and penises and ######s and vulvas and orgasms and condoms and all that. And I know I told you it feels good and you had a hard time seeing how that could be true but took my word for it. Well, the thing I didn’t tell you is that it feels unbelievably amazing when you’re doing it with someone who really wants to be doing it with you. Like, better than popcorn followed by ice cream, or a Supah Ninjas marathon, or two snow days in a row. You know how excited I get when I get a new pair of shoes? It’s like 500 times better than that, when the person you’re doing it with is so excited to be doing it with you that they start asking you for it.

This is what I want you to wait for. I want you to wait to have sex until the person you’re with asks you for it. Tells you they need you now, and that they can’t wait, and they want it. Calls you by your name and asks for it.

If you’re ever in a situation in which someone is asking you for it and you don’t want to have sex with that person, don’t do it. And if you’re ever in a situation in which you want to have sex but the other person doesn’t ask you for it, don’t do it. It’s only good if you both want it, and can tell each other you want it, and are sure you both want it. Otherwise someone’s going to get hurt. And romance is weird enough without hurting other people when you can stop yourself (and you can always stop yourself--that goes along with having opposable thumbs).

This letter is almost over but this next part is super-important: Not everyone you know has been taught all the stuff we’ve talked about. You are going to know people, and maybe even be friends with people, who think it’s ok to hurt other people in a lot of ways. One of those ways is sex. I know you’re going to hear other boys say things about girls, or sometimes about other boys, that means they don’t care about those girls’ feelings or bodies. When you do, I need you to step in. All you have to do is say something like, “Dude, that’s not cool” or something that lets the person saying something nasty know that it’s not ok. Remember that everyone wants to fit in. If you can take control of the mood in the room by letting them know nasty talk isn’t ok, they’ll stop so they don’t look like an idiot.

Remember how we talk all the time about how we’re the people who help, who fix things when there’s a problem or someone’s in trouble? You may get the chance to do that someday. Because those boys who say nasty things about girls may actually do something to those girls. If you are ever anywhere where boys start hurting a girl, or touching her in any way that she doesn’t want, you need to step in. If she’s asleep or drunk or passed out or drugged and can’t say “no,” you need to step in. Remember, it’s not good unless both people can say they want it. If a girl isn’t saying anything, that doesn’t mean she wants it. If she isn’t saying specifically that she wants it, then it’s wrong.

Here’s how you should step in:

1. If it’s safe for you to say something, say something. In a loud, commanding voice, tell the guy who’s doing it to stop, and make sure he knows it’s not ok and he can’t be an ####### (sorry to curse, but by the time you’re in this situation you’ll be cursing, too). Then help the girl get to someplace safe, and call her parents. (Even if she thinks she’s going to get in trouble, call her parents. If they’re mad at her, I can talk to them and take care of it.)

2. If it’s not safe for you to say something, leave the room quietly and calmly and call me. I do not care if you’re someplace you’re not supposed to be, or not the place you told me you were, or in Canada or someplace that would normally get you in a lot of trouble. You get immunity if you’re calling for help. My phone is always on, and it does not matter what time of day or night it is. If I don’t pick up right away, call your dad, and the same immunity rules apply. Call one of us and give us the address of where you are and we will come help. Then hang up and call 911. Tell them the address and that there’s an assault going on. They might want you to stay on the line with them until the police get there.

3. Even if you don't like the girl, step in. Even if she's been mean to you or snobby, or someone told you she did something you think is gross. No matter what she did, no one should hurt her. If you step in, the next day you can go back to hating her. If you don't step in, well, how are you any different from the loser who's hurting her? You know who you are. Step in.

4. Do not worry that everyone will hate you if you stop the cool kids from doing something. Stopping someone from hurting another person makes you a hero. This is what you’re here to do. And if there are people who don’t like it, screw them. Your dad and I will do anything it takes to make sure that anyone who doesn’t like your being a hero stays away from you and keeps their mouths shut.

We have been practicing for this for a long time, for being the ones who help. Remember when we were in the middle of the knife fight on the subway and we got the other mom and kid out of the way? Remember when we helped my friend move away from her scary husband? Remember all those times we took pictures of those freaky dudes staring at the little kids at the playground? We’ve been practicing to step in and help someone else. You can do it. I have faith in you.

Love,

Mom

Some of that is kinda weird. Especially to be telling a 7 year old.

 

[Henry Ford]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

I agree with most of what you posted, but you are a bad parent if you don't teach your daughters about watching out for themselves. It goes without saying that we should teach our sons to respect women, but these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you can show me where it says not to do that.

Look at the bolded.

I'm sick of shaving every morning. This means we shouldn't shave?

Lots of men have grown beards for that reason.

Oh, you scamp. That's close enough to an answer for me!Seriously, though. Saying you're sick of having to teach your daughters not to get raped isn't an argument against teaching your daughters anything. It's an expression of exasperation while at the same time an acknowledgement that we do have to teach them all kinds of oppressive rules that we don't have to teach boys.

 

[Henry Ford]

Bit of a long read but I think it's worthwhile.

"A Letter To My Sons About Stopping Rape"

Spoiler

Dear Boys,

Some really horrible things happened to someone who could be one of your friends, and it was done by some people who could be your friends. You're 11 and almost-8 now, so the incident that made me write this letter isn't something you've heard about, but this stuff keeps happening, unfortunately. So I need to talk to you about it.

First of all, I know we talk all the time about how special your bodies are, and how you’re the only one who gets to decide what to do with your body. I’ve never made you put anything in your mouth that you didn’t want to, or touch anyone you didn’t want to, or talk to anyone you didn’t want to, because I wanted you to understand that you and you alone control your boundaries. We worked on blowing a kiss so you could show that you liked someone without having to touch them, and high fives if you were ok touching them but only with your hand. We talked all the time about not letting people tell you that what you wanted was wrong or that they knew better, and that you should always always tell your dad or grandma or me if anyone makes you feel uncomfortable.

And we talk all the time about making sure that if you’re touching someone else that they want you to be touching them. That if they say “No” you have to stop right away (even if it’s just fake-punching your brother) and that even if they aren’t saying “No” you need to make sure they’re still enjoying it. You know how sometimes you like to be tickled and sometimes you don’t? Well, everyone’s like that, so even if they liked it when you did it yesterday, you should still make sure they really want you to today, whatever kind of touching it is.

Now I’m going to talk about sex. I know you know “how it works” because we’ve been talking about it ever since you two were little, since before you could read, and you know all about sperm and eggs and penises and ######s and vulvas and orgasms and condoms and all that. And I know I told you it feels good and you had a hard time seeing how that could be true but took my word for it. Well, the thing I didn’t tell you is that it feels unbelievably amazing when you’re doing it with someone who really wants to be doing it with you. Like, better than popcorn followed by ice cream, or a Supah Ninjas marathon, or two snow days in a row. You know how excited I get when I get a new pair of shoes? It’s like 500 times better than that, when the person you’re doing it with is so excited to be doing it with you that they start asking you for it.

This is what I want you to wait for. I want you to wait to have sex until the person you’re with asks you for it. Tells you they need you now, and that they can’t wait, and they want it. Calls you by your name and asks for it.

If you’re ever in a situation in which someone is asking you for it and you don’t want to have sex with that person, don’t do it. And if you’re ever in a situation in which you want to have sex but the other person doesn’t ask you for it, don’t do it. It’s only good if you both want it, and can tell each other you want it, and are sure you both want it. Otherwise someone’s going to get hurt. And romance is weird enough without hurting other people when you can stop yourself (and you can always stop yourself--that goes along with having opposable thumbs).

This letter is almost over but this next part is super-important: Not everyone you know has been taught all the stuff we’ve talked about. You are going to know people, and maybe even be friends with people, who think it’s ok to hurt other people in a lot of ways. One of those ways is sex. I know you’re going to hear other boys say things about girls, or sometimes about other boys, that means they don’t care about those girls’ feelings or bodies. When you do, I need you to step in. All you have to do is say something like, “Dude, that’s not cool” or something that lets the person saying something nasty know that it’s not ok. Remember that everyone wants to fit in. If you can take control of the mood in the room by letting them know nasty talk isn’t ok, they’ll stop so they don’t look like an idiot.

Remember how we talk all the time about how we’re the people who help, who fix things when there’s a problem or someone’s in trouble? You may get the chance to do that someday. Because those boys who say nasty things about girls may actually do something to those girls. If you are ever anywhere where boys start hurting a girl, or touching her in any way that she doesn’t want, you need to step in. If she’s asleep or drunk or passed out or drugged and can’t say “no,” you need to step in. Remember, it’s not good unless both people can say they want it. If a girl isn’t saying anything, that doesn’t mean she wants it. If she isn’t saying specifically that she wants it, then it’s wrong.

Here’s how you should step in:

1. If it’s safe for you to say something, say something. In a loud, commanding voice, tell the guy who’s doing it to stop, and make sure he knows it’s not ok and he can’t be an ####### (sorry to curse, but by the time you’re in this situation you’ll be cursing, too). Then help the girl get to someplace safe, and call her parents. (Even if she thinks she’s going to get in trouble, call her parents. If they’re mad at her, I can talk to them and take care of it.)

2. If it’s not safe for you to say something, leave the room quietly and calmly and call me. I do not care if you’re someplace you’re not supposed to be, or not the place you told me you were, or in Canada or someplace that would normally get you in a lot of trouble. You get immunity if you’re calling for help. My phone is always on, and it does not matter what time of day or night it is. If I don’t pick up right away, call your dad, and the same immunity rules apply. Call one of us and give us the address of where you are and we will come help. Then hang up and call 911. Tell them the address and that there’s an assault going on. They might want you to stay on the line with them until the police get there.

3. Even if you don't like the girl, step in. Even if she's been mean to you or snobby, or someone told you she did something you think is gross. No matter what she did, no one should hurt her. If you step in, the next day you can go back to hating her. If you don't step in, well, how are you any different from the loser who's hurting her? You know who you are. Step in.

4. Do not worry that everyone will hate you if you stop the cool kids from doing something. Stopping someone from hurting another person makes you a hero. This is what you’re here to do. And if there are people who don’t like it, screw them. Your dad and I will do anything it takes to make sure that anyone who doesn’t like your being a hero stays away from you and keeps their mouths shut.

We have been practicing for this for a long time, for being the ones who help. Remember when we were in the middle of the knife fight on the subway and we got the other mom and kid out of the way? Remember when we helped my friend move away from her scary husband? Remember all those times we took pictures of those freaky dudes staring at the little kids at the playground? We’ve been practicing to step in and help someone else. You can do it. I have faith in you.

Love,

Mom

Some of that is kinda weird. Especially to be telling a 7 year old. Yes. Yes, it is. The general sentiment is good, though.And frankly, I think a lot of kids don't get told not to rape women and don't get told to stop people who are raping women because it's always going to be a weird conversation.

 

[glock]

Bit of a long read but I think it's worthwhile.

"A Letter To My Sons About Stopping Rape"

Spoiler

Dear Boys,

Some really horrible things happened to someone who could be one of your friends, and it was done by some people who could be your friends. You're 11 and almost-8 now, so the incident that made me write this letter isn't something you've heard about, but this stuff keeps happening, unfortunately. So I need to talk to you about it.

First of all, I know we talk all the time about how special your bodies are, and how you're the only one who gets to decide what to do with your body. I've never made you put anything in your mouth that you didn't want to, or touch anyone you didn't want to, or talk to anyone you didn't want to, because I wanted you to understand that you and you alone control your boundaries. We worked on blowing a kiss so you could show that you liked someone without having to touch them, and high fives if you were ok touching them but only with your hand. We talked all the time about not letting people tell you that what you wanted was wrong or that they knew better, and that you should always always tell your dad or grandma or me if anyone makes you feel uncomfortable.

And we talk all the time about making sure that if you're touching someone else that they want you to be touching them. That if they say "No" you have to stop right away (even if it's just fake-punching your brother) and that even if they aren't saying "No" you need to make sure they're still enjoying it. You know how sometimes you like to be tickled and sometimes you don't? Well, everyone's like that, so even if they liked it when you did it yesterday, you should still make sure they really want you to today, whatever kind of touching it is.

Now I'm going to talk about sex. I know you know "how it works" because we've been talking about it ever since you two were little, since before you could read, and you know all about sperm and eggs and penises and ######s and vulvas and orgasms and condoms and all that. And I know I told you it feels good and you had a hard time seeing how that could be true but took my word for it. Well, the thing I didn't tell you is that it feels unbelievably amazing when you're doing it with someone who really wants to be doing it with you. Like, better than popcorn followed by ice cream, or a Supah Ninjas marathon, or two snow days in a row. You know how excited I get when I get a new pair of shoes? It's like 500 times better than that, when the person you're doing it with is so excited to be doing it with you that they start asking you for it.

This is what I want you to wait for. I want you to wait to have sex until the person you're with asks you for it. Tells you they need you now, and that they can't wait, and they want it. Calls you by your name and asks for it.

If you're ever in a situation in which someone is asking you for it and you don't want to have sex with that person, don't do it. And if you're ever in a situation in which you want to have sex but the other person doesn't ask you for it, don't do it. It's only good if you both want it, and can tell each other you want it, and are sure you both want it. Otherwise someone's going to get hurt. And romance is weird enough without hurting other people when you can stop yourself (and you can always stop yourself--that goes along with having opposable thumbs).

This letter is almost over but this next part is super-important: Not everyone you know has been taught all the stuff we've talked about. You are going to know people, and maybe even be friends with people, who think it's ok to hurt other people in a lot of ways. One of those ways is sex. I know you're going to hear other boys say things about girls, or sometimes about other boys, that means they don't care about those girls' feelings or bodies. When you do, I need you to step in. All you have to do is say something like, "Dude, that's not cool" or something that lets the person saying something nasty know that it's not ok. Remember that everyone wants to fit in. If you can take control of the mood in the room by letting them know nasty talk isn't ok, they'll stop so they don't look like an idiot.

Remember how we talk all the time about how we're the people who help, who fix things when there's a problem or someone's in trouble? You may get the chance to do that someday. Because those boys who say nasty things about girls may actually do something to those girls. If you are ever anywhere where boys start hurting a girl, or touching her in any way that she doesn't want, you need to step in. If she's asleep or drunk or passed out or drugged and can't say "no," you need to step in. Remember, it's not good unless both people can say they want it. If a girl isn't saying anything, that doesn't mean she wants it. If she isn't saying specifically that she wants it, then it's wrong.

Here's how you should step in:

1. If it's safe for you to say something, say something. In a loud, commanding voice, tell the guy who's doing it to stop, and make sure he knows it's not ok and he can't be an ####### (sorry to curse, but by the time you're in this situation you'll be cursing, too). Then help the girl get to someplace safe, and call her parents. (Even if she thinks she's going to get in trouble, call her parents. If they're mad at her, I can talk to them and take care of it.)

2. If it's not safe for you to say something, leave the room quietly and calmly and call me. I do not care if you're someplace you're not supposed to be, or not the place you told me you were, or in Canada or someplace that would normally get you in a lot of trouble. You get immunity if you're calling for help. My phone is always on, and it does not matter what time of day or night it is. If I don't pick up right away, call your dad, and the same immunity rules apply. Call one of us and give us the address of where you are and we will come help. Then hang up and call 911. Tell them the address and that there's an assault going on. They might want you to stay on the line with them until the police get there.

3. Even if you don't like the girl, step in. Even if she's been mean to you or snobby, or someone told you she did something you think is gross. No matter what she did, no one should hurt her. If you step in, the next day you can go back to hating her. If you don't step in, well, how are you any different from the loser who's hurting her? You know who you are. Step in.

4. Do not worry that everyone will hate you if you stop the cool kids from doing something. Stopping someone from hurting another person makes you a hero. This is what you're here to do. And if there are people who don't like it, screw them. Your dad and I will do anything it takes to make sure that anyone who doesn't like your being a hero stays away from you and keeps their mouths shut.

We have been practicing for this for a long time, for being the ones who help. Remember when we were in the middle of the knife fight on the subway and we got the other mom and kid out of the way? Remember when we helped my friend move away from her scary husband? Remember all those times we took pictures of those freaky dudes staring at the little kids at the playground? We've been practicing to step in and help someone else. You can do it. I have faith in you.

Love,

Mom

Some of that is kinda weird. Especially to be telling a 7 year old. Agreed.

 

[Rayderr]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

I agree with most of what you posted, but you are a bad parent if you don't teach your daughters about watching out for themselves. It goes without saying that we should teach our sons to respect women, but these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you can show me where it says not to do that.

Look at the bolded.

I'm sick of shaving every morning. This means we shouldn't shave?

Lots of men have grown beards for that reason.

Oh, you scamp. That's close enough to an answer for me!Seriously, though. Saying you're sick of having to teach your daughters not to get raped isn't an argument against teaching your daughters anything. It's an expression of exasperation while at the same time an acknowledgement that we do have to teach them all kinds of oppressive rules that we don't have to teach boys.

Seems to me that she would've been better off saying "We teach our daughters rules to avoid putting themselves in situations where they can be raped. We need to also teach our sons that no means no, and rape is not a joke."

 

[Otis]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

I agree with most of what you posted, but you are a bad parent if you don't teach your daughters about watching out for themselves. It goes without saying that we should teach our sons to respect women, but these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

You're a bad parent if you don't teach your CHILDREN to watch out for themselves. You can bet I'll teach my daughter to be careful, but I agree with the above that it's BS that daughters should even have to be given special teaching in the first place because "men" are stronger and could overpower them or take advantage of them. To suggest the daughter is in any way at fault here is outrageous. You can bet as a father of a daughter that I'll teach her carefully, and sadly because this is the world we live in. But that doesn't make it right.These boys are monsters -- the ones that watched it happen, the ones that participated, the ones that joked about it. Horrifying. If one of those were my son (not just the rapists, but the ones who watched and joked about it), I would be so absolutely ashamed and mortified and disappointed I don't know what I would do.

 

[Abraham]

These boys are monsters -- the ones that watched it happen, the ones that participated, the ones that joked about it. Horrifying. If one of those were my son (not just the rapists, but the ones who watched and joked about it), I would be so absolutely ashamed and mortified and disappointed I don't know what I would do.

Excellent posting.

 

[Henry Ford]

These boys are monsters -- the ones that watched it happen, the ones that participated, the ones that joked about it. Horrifying. If one of those were my son (not just the rapists, but the ones who watched and joked about it), I would be so absolutely ashamed and mortified and disappointed I don't know what I would do.

Excellent posting.

Yup.

 

[coyote5]

Bit of a long read but I think it's worthwhile.

"A Letter To My Sons About Stopping Rape"

Spoiler

Dear Boys,

Some really horrible things happened to someone who could be one of your friends, and it was done by some people who could be your friends. You're 11 and almost-8 now, so the incident that made me write this letter isn't something you've heard about, but this stuff keeps happening, unfortunately. So I need to talk to you about it.

First of all, I know we talk all the time about how special your bodies are, and how you’re the only one who gets to decide what to do with your body. I’ve never made you put anything in your mouth that you didn’t want to, or touch anyone you didn’t want to, or talk to anyone you didn’t want to, because I wanted you to understand that you and you alone control your boundaries. We worked on blowing a kiss so you could show that you liked someone without having to touch them, and high fives if you were ok touching them but only with your hand. We talked all the time about not letting people tell you that what you wanted was wrong or that they knew better, and that you should always always tell your dad or grandma or me if anyone makes you feel uncomfortable.

And we talk all the time about making sure that if you’re touching someone else that they want you to be touching them. That if they say “No” you have to stop right away (even if it’s just fake-punching your brother) and that even if they aren’t saying “No” you need to make sure they’re still enjoying it. You know how sometimes you like to be tickled and sometimes you don’t? Well, everyone’s like that, so even if they liked it when you did it yesterday, you should still make sure they really want you to today, whatever kind of touching it is.

Now I’m going to talk about sex. I know you know “how it works” because we’ve been talking about it ever since you two were little, since before you could read, and you know all about sperm and eggs and penises and ######s and vulvas and orgasms and condoms and all that. And I know I told you it feels good and you had a hard time seeing how that could be true but took my word for it. Well, the thing I didn’t tell you is that it feels unbelievably amazing when you’re doing it with someone who really wants to be doing it with you. Like, better than popcorn followed by ice cream, or a Supah Ninjas marathon, or two snow days in a row. You know how excited I get when I get a new pair of shoes? It’s like 500 times better than that, when the person you’re doing it with is so excited to be doing it with you that they start asking you for it.

This is what I want you to wait for. I want you to wait to have sex until the person you’re with asks you for it. Tells you they need you now, and that they can’t wait, and they want it. Calls you by your name and asks for it.

If you’re ever in a situation in which someone is asking you for it and you don’t want to have sex with that person, don’t do it. And if you’re ever in a situation in which you want to have sex but the other person doesn’t ask you for it, don’t do it. It’s only good if you both want it, and can tell each other you want it, and are sure you both want it. Otherwise someone’s going to get hurt. And romance is weird enough without hurting other people when you can stop yourself (and you can always stop yourself--that goes along with having opposable thumbs).

This letter is almost over but this next part is super-important: Not everyone you know has been taught all the stuff we’ve talked about. You are going to know people, and maybe even be friends with people, who think it’s ok to hurt other people in a lot of ways. One of those ways is sex. I know you’re going to hear other boys say things about girls, or sometimes about other boys, that means they don’t care about those girls’ feelings or bodies. When you do, I need you to step in. All you have to do is say something like, “Dude, that’s not cool” or something that lets the person saying something nasty know that it’s not ok. Remember that everyone wants to fit in. If you can take control of the mood in the room by letting them know nasty talk isn’t ok, they’ll stop so they don’t look like an idiot.

Remember how we talk all the time about how we’re the people who help, who fix things when there’s a problem or someone’s in trouble? You may get the chance to do that someday. Because those boys who say nasty things about girls may actually do something to those girls. If you are ever anywhere where boys start hurting a girl, or touching her in any way that she doesn’t want, you need to step in. If she’s asleep or drunk or passed out or drugged and can’t say “no,” you need to step in. Remember, it’s not good unless both people can say they want it. If a girl isn’t saying anything, that doesn’t mean she wants it. If she isn’t saying specifically that she wants it, then it’s wrong.

Here’s how you should step in:

1. If it’s safe for you to say something, say something. In a loud, commanding voice, tell the guy who’s doing it to stop, and make sure he knows it’s not ok and he can’t be an ####### (sorry to curse, but by the time you’re in this situation you’ll be cursing, too). Then help the girl get to someplace safe, and call her parents. (Even if she thinks she’s going to get in trouble, call her parents. If they’re mad at her, I can talk to them and take care of it.)

2. If it’s not safe for you to say something, leave the room quietly and calmly and call me. I do not care if you’re someplace you’re not supposed to be, or not the place you told me you were, or in Canada or someplace that would normally get you in a lot of trouble. You get immunity if you’re calling for help. My phone is always on, and it does not matter what time of day or night it is. If I don’t pick up right away, call your dad, and the same immunity rules apply. Call one of us and give us the address of where you are and we will come help. Then hang up and call 911. Tell them the address and that there’s an assault going on. They might want you to stay on the line with them until the police get there.

3. Even if you don't like the girl, step in. Even if she's been mean to you or snobby, or someone told you she did something you think is gross. No matter what she did, no one should hurt her. If you step in, the next day you can go back to hating her. If you don't step in, well, how are you any different from the loser who's hurting her? You know who you are. Step in.

4. Do not worry that everyone will hate you if you stop the cool kids from doing something. Stopping someone from hurting another person makes you a hero. This is what you’re here to do. And if there are people who don’t like it, screw them. Your dad and I will do anything it takes to make sure that anyone who doesn’t like your being a hero stays away from you and keeps their mouths shut.

We have been practicing for this for a long time, for being the ones who help. Remember when we were in the middle of the knife fight on the subway and we got the other mom and kid out of the way? Remember when we helped my friend move away from her scary husband? Remember all those times we took pictures of those freaky dudes staring at the little kids at the playground? We’ve been practicing to step in and help someone else. You can do it. I have faith in you.

Love,

Mom

Spoiler

Some of that is kinda weird. Especially to be telling a 7 year old.

Yes. Yes, it is. The general sentiment is good, though.And frankly, I think a lot of kids don't get told not to rape women and don't get told to stop people who are raping women because it's always going to be a weird conversation.

Absolutely Agree. But "Mom" sure does like to tell her 7 and 11 year old how amazing sex is when your partner is begging for it.

 

[Henry Ford]

Bit of a long read but I think it's worthwhile.

"A Letter To My Sons About Stopping Rape"

Spoiler

Dear Boys,

Some really horrible things happened to someone who could be one of your friends, and it was done by some people who could be your friends. You're 11 and almost-8 now, so the incident that made me write this letter isn't something you've heard about, but this stuff keeps happening, unfortunately. So I need to talk to you about it.

First of all, I know we talk all the time about how special your bodies are, and how you’re the only one who gets to decide what to do with your body. I’ve never made you put anything in your mouth that you didn’t want to, or touch anyone you didn’t want to, or talk to anyone you didn’t want to, because I wanted you to understand that you and you alone control your boundaries. We worked on blowing a kiss so you could show that you liked someone without having to touch them, and high fives if you were ok touching them but only with your hand. We talked all the time about not letting people tell you that what you wanted was wrong or that they knew better, and that you should always always tell your dad or grandma or me if anyone makes you feel uncomfortable.

And we talk all the time about making sure that if you’re touching someone else that they want you to be touching them. That if they say “No” you have to stop right away (even if it’s just fake-punching your brother) and that even if they aren’t saying “No” you need to make sure they’re still enjoying it. You know how sometimes you like to be tickled and sometimes you don’t? Well, everyone’s like that, so even if they liked it when you did it yesterday, you should still make sure they really want you to today, whatever kind of touching it is.

Now I’m going to talk about sex. I know you know “how it works” because we’ve been talking about it ever since you two were little, since before you could read, and you know all about sperm and eggs and penises and ######s and vulvas and orgasms and condoms and all that. And I know I told you it feels good and you had a hard time seeing how that could be true but took my word for it. Well, the thing I didn’t tell you is that it feels unbelievably amazing when you’re doing it with someone who really wants to be doing it with you. Like, better than popcorn followed by ice cream, or a Supah Ninjas marathon, or two snow days in a row. You know how excited I get when I get a new pair of shoes? It’s like 500 times better than that, when the person you’re doing it with is so excited to be doing it with you that they start asking you for it.

This is what I want you to wait for. I want you to wait to have sex until the person you’re with asks you for it. Tells you they need you now, and that they can’t wait, and they want it. Calls you by your name and asks for it.

If you’re ever in a situation in which someone is asking you for it and you don’t want to have sex with that person, don’t do it. And if you’re ever in a situation in which you want to have sex but the other person doesn’t ask you for it, don’t do it. It’s only good if you both want it, and can tell each other you want it, and are sure you both want it. Otherwise someone’s going to get hurt. And romance is weird enough without hurting other people when you can stop yourself (and you can always stop yourself--that goes along with having opposable thumbs).

This letter is almost over but this next part is super-important: Not everyone you know has been taught all the stuff we’ve talked about. You are going to know people, and maybe even be friends with people, who think it’s ok to hurt other people in a lot of ways. One of those ways is sex. I know you’re going to hear other boys say things about girls, or sometimes about other boys, that means they don’t care about those girls’ feelings or bodies. When you do, I need you to step in. All you have to do is say something like, “Dude, that’s not cool” or something that lets the person saying something nasty know that it’s not ok. Remember that everyone wants to fit in. If you can take control of the mood in the room by letting them know nasty talk isn’t ok, they’ll stop so they don’t look like an idiot.

Remember how we talk all the time about how we’re the people who help, who fix things when there’s a problem or someone’s in trouble? You may get the chance to do that someday. Because those boys who say nasty things about girls may actually do something to those girls. If you are ever anywhere where boys start hurting a girl, or touching her in any way that she doesn’t want, you need to step in. If she’s asleep or drunk or passed out or drugged and can’t say “no,” you need to step in. Remember, it’s not good unless both people can say they want it. If a girl isn’t saying anything, that doesn’t mean she wants it. If she isn’t saying specifically that she wants it, then it’s wrong.

Here’s how you should step in:

1. If it’s safe for you to say something, say something. In a loud, commanding voice, tell the guy who’s doing it to stop, and make sure he knows it’s not ok and he can’t be an ####### (sorry to curse, but by the time you’re in this situation you’ll be cursing, too). Then help the girl get to someplace safe, and call her parents. (Even if she thinks she’s going to get in trouble, call her parents. If they’re mad at her, I can talk to them and take care of it.)

2. If it’s not safe for you to say something, leave the room quietly and calmly and call me. I do not care if you’re someplace you’re not supposed to be, or not the place you told me you were, or in Canada or someplace that would normally get you in a lot of trouble. You get immunity if you’re calling for help. My phone is always on, and it does not matter what time of day or night it is. If I don’t pick up right away, call your dad, and the same immunity rules apply. Call one of us and give us the address of where you are and we will come help. Then hang up and call 911. Tell them the address and that there’s an assault going on. They might want you to stay on the line with them until the police get there.

3. Even if you don't like the girl, step in. Even if she's been mean to you or snobby, or someone told you she did something you think is gross. No matter what she did, no one should hurt her. If you step in, the next day you can go back to hating her. If you don't step in, well, how are you any different from the loser who's hurting her? You know who you are. Step in.

4. Do not worry that everyone will hate you if you stop the cool kids from doing something. Stopping someone from hurting another person makes you a hero. This is what you’re here to do. And if there are people who don’t like it, screw them. Your dad and I will do anything it takes to make sure that anyone who doesn’t like your being a hero stays away from you and keeps their mouths shut.

We have been practicing for this for a long time, for being the ones who help. Remember when we were in the middle of the knife fight on the subway and we got the other mom and kid out of the way? Remember when we helped my friend move away from her scary husband? Remember all those times we took pictures of those freaky dudes staring at the little kids at the playground? We’ve been practicing to step in and help someone else. You can do it. I have faith in you.

Love,

Mom

Spoiler

Some of that is kinda weird. Especially to be telling a 7 year old.

Spoiler

Yes. Yes, it is. The general sentiment is good, though.And frankly, I think a lot of kids don't get told not to rape women and don't get told to stop people who are raping women because it's always going to be a weird conversation.

Absolutely Agree. But "Mom" sure does like to tell her 7 and 11 year old how amazing sex is when your partner is begging for it. How will he know if no one ever tells him.And yes, DCFS is going to need to keep an eye on that house in a few years.

 

[B-Deep]

I did not read the "sick of teaching girls" to mean anyone should stop teaching girls to be safe in any way.

It is just that it is a shame that is often where the emphasis is with this crime, what the victim did "wrong".

 

[Chaka]

I am not defending the rapists; they got what they deserve.

They got off easy and they should thank God every second of their lives that they weren't sent to adult prison for a real term instead of juvie for a year or two.

 

[NCCommish]

I am not defending the rapists; they got what they deserve.

They got off easy and they should thank God every second of their lives that they weren't sent to adult prison for a real term instead of juvie for a year or two.

Especially given - 16 isn't babe in the woods territory

 

[Black Box]

I did not read the "sick of teaching girls" to mean anyone should stop teaching girls to be safe in any way.It is just that it is a shame that is often where the emphasis is with this crime, what the victim did "wrong".

If we're going to keep teaching girls to be safe, sometimes we use examples. This is a prime example. I think that is why the emphasis will sometimes look at it as a case study... sort of a "what not to do". I don't think it is always intentional.

 

[bigbottom]

and before everyone jumps down my throat, I am not defending the rapists; they got what they deserve.

I disagree.

 

[Chaka]

Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

No but I have woken up not terribly surprised to find that someone had drawn a swastika on my forehead and stuck a Monopoly hotel up my nose.

 

[Rayderr]

Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

No but I have woken up not terribly surprised to find that someone had drawn a swastika on my forehead and stuck a Monopoly hotel up my nose.

And wasn't there a case recently where some frat student teabagged another male student that had passed out from drinking too much?

 

[culdeus]

Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

No but I have woken up not terribly surprised to find that someone had drawn a swastika on my forehead and stuck a Monopoly hotel up my nose.

And wasn't there a case recently where some frat student teabagged another male student that had passed out from drinking too much?

Yeah he went to jail and is now a RSA.

 

[Sweet J]

Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

No but I have woken up not terribly surprised to find that someone had drawn a swastika on my forehead and stuck a Monopoly hotel up my nose.

And wasn't there a case recently where some frat student teabagged another male student that had passed out from drinking too much?

Yeah he went to jail and is now a RSA.

Curious, how long did he go to jail for?

 

[pittstownkiller]

I'm sure its been mentioned but I can't believe how many people in the comment section of these articles suggest the girl is somehow to blame.

Blaming the girl for a crime committed against her is horrendous.

That was a really smart and compassionate place to end that sentence. Good decision.

I have found you to be a difficult person to ask a question to.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

These boys are monsters -- the ones that watched it happen, the ones that participated, the ones that joked about it. Horrifying. If one of those were my son (not just the rapists, but the ones who watched and joked about it), I would be so absolutely ashamed and mortified and disappointed I don't know what I would do.

Exactly. I've got a seven year old and I'm already imagining the conversations. Don't do this. If you see this, stop it. If you're afraid to stop it yourself call me. I would be heartbroken if my boys watched this and did nothing, let alone took part in it by videotaping it or making jokes about it.

 

[pittstownkiller]

I had heard that there was testimony saying that she was responsive when asked questions (as for coherency I do not know).

She was unconscious. They carried her, by her hands and feet, to a party where they raped her. Have you not seen the picture?

No.

 

[MikeIke]

Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

No but I have woken up not terribly surprised to find that someone had drawn a swastika on my forehead and stuck a Monopoly hotel up my nose.

And wasn't there a case recently where some frat student teabagged another male student that had passed out from drinking too much?

Stuff like this was a common occurrence among my high school buddies. You always knew that if you passed out you were going to get messed with.We did, however, stop way short of sexual assault. And any females were totally off limits.