Annonymous exposes Steubenville Rape Case (3 Viewers)

[culdeus]

Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

No but I have woken up not terribly surprised to find that someone had drawn a swastika on my forehead and stuck a Monopoly hotel up my nose.

And wasn't there a case recently where some frat student teabagged another male student that had passed out from drinking too much?

Yeah he went to jail and is now a RSA.

Curious, how long did he go to jail for?

I think he got like 8 months, but was out in like 5 weeks to house arrest IIRC.

 

[Rayderr]

Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

No but I have woken up not terribly surprised to find that someone had drawn a swastika on my forehead and stuck a Monopoly hotel up my nose.

And wasn't there a case recently where some frat student teabagged another male student that had passed out from drinking too much?

Stuff like this was a common occurrence among my high school buddies. You always knew that if you passed out you were going to get messed with.We did, however, stop way short of sexual assault. And any females were totally off limits.

Well, teabagging is now sexual assault.

 

[B-Deep]

Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

No but I have woken up not terribly surprised to find that someone had drawn a swastika on my forehead and stuck a Monopoly hotel up my nose.

And wasn't there a case recently where some frat student teabagged another male student that had passed out from drinking too much?

Stuff like this was a common occurrence among my high school buddies. You always knew that if you passed out you were going to get messed with.We did, however, stop way short of sexual assault. And any females were totally off limits.

so you were never concerned about anal penetration and then seeing the images and videos posted around the innerwebs?yeah, me neither

 

[pittstownkiller]

Pitts wouldn't it be nice if girls would just learn to not get raped already....16 year old boys can drink with impunity, but girls, well hell they are just putting them in a position to get rapedand if they do, we'll sure as hell make sure we point out they are to blame

Change the word blame to responsibility. Then deny that it means the same thing as blame.

It is specifically why I stated that she had the responsibility to herself not to anyone else. She was a victim of a crime and my posting was in response to another's post.

 

[MikeIke]

Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

No but I have woken up not terribly surprised to find that someone had drawn a swastika on my forehead and stuck a Monopoly hotel up my nose.

And wasn't there a case recently where some frat student teabagged another male student that had passed out from drinking too much?

Stuff like this was a common occurrence among my high school buddies. You always knew that if you passed out you were going to get messed with.We did, however, stop way short of sexual assault. And any females were totally off limits.

Well, teabagging is now sexual assault.

Which I find ridiculous. However, this was 20 years ago, and there was no Facebook/Twitter.

 

[pittstownkiller]

I agree with that in a legal sense but how would that work in the real world? If I ask a girl if she wants to have sex and she answers yes, is it my responsibility to make she she is within the legal definition of sobriety or is this a case of "if you break it you bought it"?

In real life? Yes, it very much IS your responsibility.Pro tip: Put the drunk chick to bed. Drive home. If she likes you, you can get with her withoiut the aid of a 12-pack.

Spent Summers and Winter in seasonal rentals at all the party places in New York, I have put several girls to bed in this condition; I've chased guys out of the rooms and have locked doors; I have also been too late to stop this ####. It is always disgusting to see a girl the next morning who knows something happened, just not what; it is also interesting to see who hides in the "house". I've had more than a few "friendships" come to a head, with crap like this. I have a hard time, still to this day, seeing a girl get sloppy drunk. I find it hard to believe how common it is that a girl puts herself in this situation. Did the girl deserve to get raped, did she ask for it; those questions are so assinine that's will not even humor them but I will wonder what the hell was going thought her head. She owed it to herself to be more responsible.

 

[bigbottom]

I agree with that in a legal sense but how would that work in the real world? If I ask a girl if she wants to have sex and she answers yes, is it my responsibility to make she she is within the legal definition of sobriety or is this a case of "if you break it you bought it"?

In real life? Yes, it very much IS your responsibility.Pro tip: Put the drunk chick to bed. Drive home. If she likes you, you can get with her withoiut the aid of a 12-pack.

Spent Summers and Winter in seasonal rentals at all the party places in New York, I have put several girls to bed in this condition; I've chased guys out of the rooms and have locked doors; I have also been too late to stop this ####. It is always disgusting to see a girl the next morning who knows something happened, just not what

So what is your answer to the bolded question you asked?

 

[Rayderr]

Have any of us FBGs who have ever passed out thought the next day "damn, that was an open invitation for someone to #### me in the pooper"?

No but I have woken up not terribly surprised to find that someone had drawn a swastika on my forehead and stuck a Monopoly hotel up my nose.

And wasn't there a case recently where some frat student teabagged another male student that had passed out from drinking too much?

Stuff like this was a common occurrence among my high school buddies. You always knew that if you passed out you were going to get messed with.We did, however, stop way short of sexual assault. And any females were totally off limits.

Well, teabagging is now sexual assault.

Which I find ridiculous. However, this was 20 years ago, and there was no Facebook/Twitter.

Going off in a different direction now.... These boys most likely wouldn't have been convicted, let alone gone to court, if it wasn't for them videotapingtaping and photographing the incidents. So we got the unintended side effect of educating would be criminals on how to get away with things. Luckily, stupidity tends to override those lessons pretty quickly.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

this was circulating, not sure if it was posted

I am so ####### sick of teaching our daughters not to get raped

...

We need to teach our sons what it means to be men.

...

This is absolutely spot-on. Seems that less and less males in our society today understand what it means to be men. It's not bench pressing a thousand pounds. It's not doing the most keg stands. It's not being the best athlete. It's not being the toughest fighter in the room. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of these things. Yet, sadly, half the morons out on the street just don't get it.If you aren't going to stand up and protect someone in that situation -- or worse yet, if you are going to participate in that situation -- you aren't a man, your parents have failed you, and you deserve everything that comes your way.

I hope they go after all the other people who were involved or complacent in all this. This shouldn't end here.

I agree with most of what you posted, but you are a bad parent if you don't teach your daughters about watching out for themselves. It goes without saying that we should teach our sons to respect women, but these two things aren't mutually exclusive.

You're a bad parent if you don't teach your CHILDREN to watch out for themselves. You can bet I'll teach my daughter to be careful, but I agree with the above that it's BS that daughters should even have to be given special teaching in the first place because "men" are stronger and could overpower them or take advantage of them. To suggest the daughter is in any way at fault here is outrageous. You can bet as a father of a daughter that I'll teach her carefully, and sadly because this is the world we live in. But that doesn't make it right.

These boys are monsters -- the ones that watched it happen, the ones that participated, the ones that joked about it. Horrifying. If one of those were my son (not just the rapists, but the ones who watched and joked about it), I would be so absolutely ashamed and mortified and disappointed I don't know what I would do.

There is literally nobody in this thread who is happy that rapes occur.

 

[pittstownkiller]

I agree with that in a legal sense but how would that work in the real world? If I ask a girl if she wants to have sex and she answers yes, is it my responsibility to make she she is within the legal definition of sobriety or is this a case of "if you break it you bought it"?

In real life? Yes, it very much IS your responsibility.Pro tip: Put the drunk chick to bed. Drive home. If she likes you, you can get with her withoiut the aid of a 12-pack.

Spent Summers and Winter in seasonal rentals at all the party places in New York, I have put several girls to bed in this condition; I've chased guys out of the rooms and have locked doors; I have also been too late to stop this ####. It is always disgusting to see a girl the next morning who knows something happened, just not what

So what is your answer to the bolded question you asked?

I was asking from a legal standpoint; it would seem that there is a wide area that could be covered as a defense. The situation of bedding a drunken unknown has never come with me personally, since I do not enjoy girls who are (very) drunk, enough to talk to.

 

[Doug B]

She owed it to herself to be more responsible.

Granted. But so what? Why make the point? EDIT: in the event of being drugged, the above doesn't apply.

EDIT2: I believe that giving a teenager a lot of booze -- enough for a blackout -- is morally equivalent to drugging them given the aftermath of the events. Alcohol, rohipnol ... no moral difference. Others mileage may vary.

 

[pittstownkiller]

She owed it to herself to be more responsible.

Granted. But so what? Why make the point? EDIT: in the event of being drugged, the above doesn't apply.

EDIT2: I believe that giving a teenager a lot of booze -- enough for a blackout -- is morally equivalent to drugging them given the aftermath of the events. Alcohol, rohipnol ... no moral difference. Others mileage may vary.

In a legal sense I would agree with you; I do not however equate willingly consuming alcohol, with being drugged unknowingly.

 

[Rayderr]

She owed it to herself to be more responsible.

Granted. But so what? Why make the point? EDIT: in the event of being drugged, the above doesn't apply.

EDIT2: I believe that giving a teenager a lot of booze -- enough for a blackout -- is morally equivalent to drugging them given the aftermath of the events. Alcohol, rohipnol ... no moral difference. Others mileage may vary.

They weren't secretly spiking her milk. She knew what she was drinking.

 

[pittstownkiller]

I'm sure its been mentioned but I can't believe how many people in the comment section of these articles suggest the girl is somehow to blame.

Blaming the girl for a crime committed against her is horrendous but do you think she had any responsibility to herself to not put herself in such a dangerous situation (i.e. to not be so stupid? 16 isn't babe in the woods territory)? Of course if she was drugged, or deceived in some other ways, the onus comes off of her...and before everyone jumps down my throat, I am not defending the rapists; they got what they deserve.

I don’t get why people keep wanting to bring this up. Is it a smart thing to talk to our kids about not making poor decisions? Of course it is. But to throw it out there during the discussion of a specific incident, one in which the victim has been taking an unfair share of blame already, just smacks of trying to pin some share of it on her. I know you’ve said you don’t blame her, and everyone else is offering the same caveat in this forum. But if that is the case, why even bring it up? It’s insensitive at a minimum. Kids, like this girl, do dumb things. Other kids, like the boys, do horrendous things. I don’t think it’s lost on anyone that they should tell their kids not to get fall-down drunk. But maybe you’d be better served trying to start a discussion on how to get kids to stop acting like monsters.

I agree with most of what you posted, even the part about being insensitive but I assumed we were having a discussion and that I was not talking to the victim's family. Let me try this: you are the parent of this girl, do you ever have the conversation with her how poor her decisions were that night or do you keep telling her that she bears no "responsibility" since she was a victim of a crime? I know that my daughter, and sons, will know that there are usually bad ramifications of poor decisions; keeping yourself out of a bad situation is your responsibility - and this alone does not make you immune from the actions of others. I could also ask if anyone here thinks the girl acted responsibly in her behavior that night; she was, after all, willfully underage drinking to the point of complete inebriation.

 

[Nikki2200]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

 

[Henry Ford]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

Because men just can't help themselves if they see female flesh. They're still wrong for doing it, but you have to expect it. It's why you should wear a burqa and only leave your house if a man in your family comes with you.

 

[Nikki2200]

I'm sure its been mentioned but I can't believe how many people in the comment section of these articles suggest the girl is somehow to blame.

Blaming the girl for a crime committed against her is horrendous but do you think she had any responsibility to herself to not put herself in such a dangerous situation (i.e. to not be so stupid? 16 isn't babe in the woods territory)? Of course if she was drugged, or deceived in some other ways, the onus comes off of her...and before everyone jumps down my throat, I am not defending the rapists; they got what they deserve.

I don’t get why people keep wanting to bring this up. Is it a smart thing to talk to our kids about not making poor decisions? Of course it is. But to throw it out there during the discussion of a specific incident, one in which the victim has been taking an unfair share of blame already, just smacks of trying to pin some share of it on her. I know you’ve said you don’t blame her, and everyone else is offering the same caveat in this forum. But if that is the case, why even bring it up? It’s insensitive at a minimum. Kids, like this girl, do dumb things. Other kids, like the boys, do horrendous things. I don’t think it’s lost on anyone that they should tell their kids not to get fall-down drunk. But maybe you’d be better served trying to start a discussion on how to get kids to stop acting like monsters.

I agree with most of what you posted, even the part about being insensitive but I assumed we were having a discussion and that I was not talking to the victim's family. Let me try this: you are the parent of this girl, do you ever have the conversation with her how poor her decisions were that night or do you keep telling her that she bears no "responsibility" since she was a victim of a crime? I know that my daughter, and sons, will know that there are usually bad ramifications of poor decisions; keeping yourself out of a bad situation is your responsibility - and this alone does not make you immune from the actions of others. I could also ask if anyone here thinks the girl acted responsibly in her behavior that night; she was, after all, willfully underage drinking to the point of complete inebriation.

I hardly think talking to your sixteen year old daughter who was a victim of rape and pointing out to her what she did wrong that led to this happening would be an appropriate course of action. You are saying they should sit her down and discuss her level of "responsibility" that led to her rape??????I'm going to go ahead and assume that girl will have long term trust issues and mental ramifications of what happened that night and her parents rubbing it in that it was partially her fault for getting drunk and passing out would be pretty effed up.

 

[Nikki2200]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

Because men just can't help themselves if they see female flesh. They're still wrong for doing it, but you have to expect it. It's why you should wear a burqa and only leave your house if a man in your family comes with you.

Boys will be boys I s'pose.

 

[Doug B]

They weren't secretly spiking her milk. She knew what she was drinking.

Very few 16-year-olds "know what they're drinking". "16 years old" pretty much means "novice drinker".Still, it's all a red herring No matter what she drank -- and no matter how willingly she drank it -- she is totally blameless in the scenario.

 

[pittstownkiller]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

I don't know if I would agree with that Nikki, there was certainly enough talk about Trayvon Martin and what his actions did to provoke a situation; Yousef Hawkins, comes to mind too. I have tried repeatedly to separate my comments on the girl behavior and the crimes committed against her but either I am incapable of doing so or the subject matter doesn't lend itself to this sort of dissemination.

 

[Sweet J]

I'm sure its been mentioned but I can't believe how many people in the comment section of these articles suggest the girl is somehow to blame.

Blaming the girl for a crime committed against her is horrendous but do you think she had any responsibility to herself to not put herself in such a dangerous situation (i.e. to not be so stupid? 16 isn't babe in the woods territory)? Of course if she was drugged, or deceived in some other ways, the onus comes off of her...and before everyone jumps down my throat, I am not defending the rapists; they got what they deserve.

I don’t get why people keep wanting to bring this up. Is it a smart thing to talk to our kids about not making poor decisions? Of course it is. But to throw it out there during the discussion of a specific incident, one in which the victim has been taking an unfair share of blame already, just smacks of trying to pin some share of it on her. I know you’ve said you don’t blame her, and everyone else is offering the same caveat in this forum. But if that is the case, why even bring it up? It’s insensitive at a minimum. Kids, like this girl, do dumb things. Other kids, like the boys, do horrendous things. I don’t think it’s lost on anyone that they should tell their kids not to get fall-down drunk. But maybe you’d be better served trying to start a discussion on how to get kids to stop acting like monsters.

I agree with most of what you posted, even the part about being insensitive but I assumed we were having a discussion and that I was not talking to the victim's family. Let me try this: you are the parent of this girl, do you ever have the conversation with her how poor her decisions were that night or do you keep telling her that she bears no "responsibility" since she was a victim of a crime? I know that my daughter, and sons, will know that there are usually bad ramifications of poor decisions; keeping yourself out of a bad situation is your responsibility - and this alone does not make you immune from the actions of others. I could also ask if anyone here thinks the girl acted responsibly in her behavior that night; she was, after all, willfully underage drinking to the point of complete inebriation.

This guy is fishing, right? Nobody is this insane, right?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

Probably because nobody thinks its really up for debate in other contexts. If I leave my car unlocked in a mall parking lot and something valuable that I left in plain sight in the back gets stolen, everybody would agree that while the theft was inexcusable, I made some poor decisions that contributed to the situation. The only situation where anybody gets defensive when you point this out is when we're talking about rape. Nobody writes little screeds about how sick they are of having to tell their kids to lock their car doors.

 

[Doug B]

I agree with most of what you posted, even the part about being insensitive but I assumed we were having a discussion and that I was not talking to the victim's family. Let me try this: you are the parent of this girl, do you ever have the conversation with her how poor her decisions were that night or do you keep telling her that she bears no "responsibility" since she was a victim of a crime?

I tell her -- and remind her over and over -- that she bears no responsibility at all. Yes, getting drunk (or heck, drinking at all for a 16-year-old) is a poor decision in and of itself ... but I don't want her getting the idea that she is even a scintilla at fault for the rapists being in jail.Sorry ... I put none of it -- none -- on the girl.

 

[Black Box]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

Because if you talk about "not walking around the bad part of town", you might get called a racist.

 

[Henry Ford]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

I don't know if I would agree with that Nikki, there was certainly enough talk about Trayvon Martin and what his actions did to provoke a situation; Yousef Hawkins, comes to mind too. I have tried repeatedly to separate my comments on the girl behavior and the crimes committed against her but either I am incapable of doing so or the subject matter doesn't lend itself to this sort of dissemination.

Yousef Hawkins comes to mind? That was almost 25 years ago. What exactly do you remember people saying about what Hawkins did to cause what happened to him? You mean the racists who shouted racial slurs at people protesting his being killed by a mob?The "justification" for Martin was the suggestion that he was beating the guy who shot him to death. Other than that, no one thinks he deserved to get shot.

 

[pittstownkiller]

They weren't secretly spiking her milk. She knew what she was drinking.

Very few 16-year-olds "know what they're drinking". "16 years old" pretty much means "novice drinker".Still, it's all a red herring No matter what she drank -- and no matter how willingly she drank it -- she is totally blameless in the scenario.

So if no one gave her the alcohol and she supplied it herself is she still blameless? What if she supplied the alcohol that the boys got drunk on, diminishing their reasoning ability; does that still mean she bears NO responsibility? Being a victim of a crime does not absolve her of her duty to take care of herself and her behavior doesn't necessarily mitigate the crime.

 

[Doug B]

They weren't secretly spiking her milk. She knew what she was drinking.

We can only speak speculatively, I suppose. I have no specifics.I have great doubts that a 16-year-old, having been introduced to typical-strength margaritas (say), would have the judgement and wherewithal to refuse a triple-shot margarita offered at a party. I think it's very easy to fool a 16-year-old girl -- one willing to party the night away -- into unwittingly drinking herself into a blackout.Like I say, I have no specifics. Yet I believe what I believe just the same

 

[pittstownkiller]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

I don't know if I would agree with that Nikki, there was certainly enough talk about Trayvon Martin and what his actions did to provoke a situation; Yousef Hawkins, comes to mind too. I have tried repeatedly to separate my comments on the girl behavior and the crimes committed against her but either I am incapable of doing so or the subject matter doesn't lend itself to this sort of dissemination.

Yousef Hawkins comes to mind? That was almost 25 years ago. What exactly do you remember people saying about what Hawkins did to cause what happened to him? You mean the racists who shouted racial slurs at people protesting his being killed by a mob?The "justification" for Martin was the suggestion that he was beating the guy who shot him to death. Other than that, no one thinks he deserved to get shot.

To refresh your memory on Yousef, there was quite a voice to be heard that he had no business walking in that neighborhood; it was similar with Martin.

 

[Henry Ford]

To refresh your memory on Yousef, there was quite lice to be heard that he had. I place walking in that neighborhood; it was similar with Martin.

Yeah, that was really helpful. Thanks.

 

[B-Deep]

I'm sure its been mentioned but I can't believe how many people in the comment section of these articles suggest the girl is somehow to blame.

Blaming the girl for a crime committed against her is horrendous but do you think she had any responsibility to herself to not put herself in such a dangerous situation (i.e. to not be so stupid? 16 isn't babe in the woods territory)? Of course if she was drugged, or deceived in some other ways, the onus comes off of her...and before everyone jumps down my throat, I am not defending the rapists; they got what they deserve.

I don’t get why people keep wanting to bring this up. Is it a smart thing to talk to our kids about not making poor decisions? Of course it is. But to throw it out there during the discussion of a specific incident, one in which the victim has been taking an unfair share of blame already, just smacks of trying to pin some share of it on her. I know you’ve said you don’t blame her, and everyone else is offering the same caveat in this forum. But if that is the case, why even bring it up? It’s insensitive at a minimum. Kids, like this girl, do dumb things. Other kids, like the boys, do horrendous things. I don’t think it’s lost on anyone that they should tell their kids not to get fall-down drunk. But maybe you’d be better served trying to start a discussion on how to get kids to stop acting like monsters.

I agree with most of what you posted, even the part about being insensitive but I assumed we were having a discussion and that I was not talking to the victim's family. Let me try this: you are the parent of this girl, do you ever have the conversation with her how poor her decisions were that night or do you keep telling her that she bears no "responsibility" since she was a victim of a crime? I know that my daughter, and sons, will know that there are usually bad ramifications of poor decisions; keeping yourself out of a bad situation is your responsibility - and this alone does not make you immune from the actions of others. I could also ask if anyone here thinks the girl acted responsibly in her behavior that night; she was, after all, willfully underage drinking to the point of complete inebriation.

This guy is fishing, right? Nobody is this insane, right?

i hope soi can think of worse ideas than telling a rape victim it was their fault, but not many

pitts, do you think there will be a day that goes by in this girl's life that she doesn't wish she had stayed home?

she's going to spend her life trying to get over being raped and having the video and photo evidence spread around. Everyone in America knows exactly how this girl was violated and demeaned and she has to live with that.

 

[Doug B]

So if no one gave her the alcohol and she supplied it herself is she still blameless?

Yes.

What if she supplied the alcohol that the boys got drunk on, diminishing their reasoning ability; does that still mean she bears NO responsibility?

That's a wildly different scenario. Personally, I don't believe alcohol can make a man rape someone ... not in the way it happened in Steubenville, anyway.

Being a victim of a crime does not absolve her of her duty to take care of herself and her behavior doesn't necessarily mitigate the crime.

OK ... so what?Her behavior absolutely doesn't mitigate the crime.

 

[Nikki2200]

They weren't secretly spiking her milk. She knew what she was drinking.

Very few 16-year-olds "know what they're drinking". "16 years old" pretty much means "novice drinker".Still, it's all a red herring No matter what she drank -- and no matter how willingly she drank it -- she is totally blameless in the scenario.

So if no one gave her the alcohol and she supplied it herself is she still blameless? What if she supplied the alcohol that the boys got drunk on, diminishing their reasoning ability; does that still mean she bears NO responsibility? Being a victim of a crime does not absolve her of her duty to take care of herself and her behavior doesn't necessarily mitigate the crime.

Why does drinking alcohol = getting raped? And now we're talking about the boys' reasoning ability was diminished???? I've been drunk a lot of times. I've never assaulted anyone. Holy moly.

 

[bigbottom]

I'm sure its been mentioned but I can't believe how many people in the comment section of these articles suggest the girl is somehow to blame.

Blaming the girl for a crime committed against her is horrendous but do you think she had any responsibility to herself to not put herself in such a dangerous situation (i.e. to not be so stupid? 16 isn't babe in the woods territory)? Of course if she was drugged, or deceived in some other ways, the onus comes off of her...and before everyone jumps down my throat, I am not defending the rapists; they got what they deserve.

I don’t get why people keep wanting to bring this up. Is it a smart thing to talk to our kids about not making poor decisions? Of course it is. But to throw it out there during the discussion of a specific incident, one in which the victim has been taking an unfair share of blame already, just smacks of trying to pin some share of it on her. I know you’ve said you don’t blame her, and everyone else is offering the same caveat in this forum. But if that is the case, why even bring it up? It’s insensitive at a minimum. Kids, like this girl, do dumb things. Other kids, like the boys, do horrendous things. I don’t think it’s lost on anyone that they should tell their kids not to get fall-down drunk. But maybe you’d be better served trying to start a discussion on how to get kids to stop acting like monsters.

I agree with most of what you posted, even the part about being insensitive but I assumed we were having a discussion and that I was not talking to the victim's family. Let me try this: you are the parent of this girl, do you ever have the conversation with her how poor her decisions were that night or do you keep telling her that she bears no "responsibility" since she was a victim of a crime? I know that my daughter, and sons, will know that there are usually bad ramifications of poor decisions; keeping yourself out of a bad situation is your responsibility - and this alone does not make you immune from the actions of others. I could also ask if anyone here thinks the girl acted responsibly in her behavior that night; she was, after all, willfully underage drinking to the point of complete inebriation.

This guy is fishing, right? Nobody is this insane, right?

i hope soi can think of worse ideas than telling a rape victim it was their fault, but not many

pitts, do you think there will be a day that goes by in this girl's life that she doesn't wish she had stayed home?

she's going to spend her life trying to get over being raped and having the video and photo evidence spread around. Everyone in America knows exactly how this girl was violated and demeaned and she has to live with that.

If there's one thing this girl needs, it's an understanding of bad ramifications of personal decisions.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

One reason why self-defense cases and rape cases similarly create situations where people might think that you're "blaming the victim" is that they both place the victim's conduct at the center of a defense.

The state needs to prove that the victim did not consent. Obviously defendants are going to want to present evidence that the victim actually consented. In self-defense, the defendant similarly has to present evidence that it's likely he or she feared imminent grave harm.

While we shouldn't overlook the possibility of underlying racism or sexism, we also have to acknowledge that this happens because of the structural elements of the respective offenses.

 

[bigbottom]

One reason why self-defense cases and rape cases similarly create situations where people might think that you're "blaming the victim" is that they both place the victim's conduct at the center of a defense.The state needs to prove that the victim did not consent. Obviously defendants are going to want to present evidence that the victim actually consented. In self-defense, the defendant similarly has to present evidence that it's likely he or she feared imminent grave harm. While we shouldn't overlook the possibility of underlying racism or sexism, we also have to acknowledge that this happens because of the structural elements of the respective offenses.

But the debate regarding whether the girl bears personal responsibility for allowing herself to drink to the point of incapacitation is irrelevant to the structural element of whether or not she gave consent.And I think that's part of the point that Pitt is making. Whether or not the victim exercised bad judgment or bears personal responsibility with respect to getting drunk doesn't make it any less of a rape.

 

[pittstownkiller]

To refresh your memory on Yousef, there was quite lice to be heard that he had. I place walking in that neighborhood; it was similar with Martin.

Yeah, that was really helpful. Thanks.

Sorry, I have been having an issue with the touchscreen on my phone all day. I'll try to correct that.

 

[Nikki2200]

One reason why self-defense cases and rape cases similarly create situations where people might think that you're "blaming the victim" is that they both place the victim's conduct at the center of a defense.

The state needs to prove that the victim did not consent. Obviously defendants are going to want to present evidence that the victim actually consented. In self-defense, the defendant similarly has to present evidence that it's likely he or she feared imminent grave harm.

While we shouldn't overlook the possibility of underlying racism or sexism, we also have to acknowledge that this happens because of the structural elements of the respective offenses.

In this case, there is no question that the victim did not consent. She was passed out, unconscious, and labelled as "dead" by the people taking the video. Yet here we are talking about what she did wrong where she could have avoided being raped.

 

[Henry Ford]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

I don't know if I would agree with that Nikki, there was certainly enough talk about Trayvon Martin and what his actions did to provoke a situation; Yousef Hawkins, comes to mind too. I have tried repeatedly to separate my comments on the girl behavior and the crimes committed against her but either I am incapable of doing so or the subject matter doesn't lend itself to this sort of dissemination.

Yousef Hawkins comes to mind? That was almost 25 years ago. What exactly do you remember people saying about what Hawkins did to cause what happened to him? You mean the racists who shouted racial slurs at people protesting his being killed by a mob?The "justification" for Martin was the suggestion that he was beating the guy who shot him to death. Other than that, no one thinks he deserved to get shot.

To refresh your memory on Yousef, there was quite a voice to be heard that he had no business walking in that neighborhood; it was similar with Martin.

That's just pure racism, though. That's not a reason, or a justification for what happened to him, and anyone with any sense at all thinks "wow, that's unbelievably racist and the person saying that is an idiot."

 

[pittstownkiller]

So if no one gave her the alcohol and she supplied it herself is she still blameless?

Yes.I agree with this but you implied she was forced to drink equivalent to being drugged.

What if she supplied the alcohol that the boys got drunk on, diminishing their reasoning ability; does that still mean she bears NO responsibility?

That's a wildly different scenario. Personally, I don't believe alcohol can make a man rape someone ... not in the way it happened in Steubenville, anyway.I disagree; men act just as stupidly as women do, when they are drunk.

Being a victim of a crime does not absolve her of her duty to take care of herself and her behavior doesn't necessarily mitigate the crime.

OK ... so what?Her behavior absolutely doesn't mitigate the crime.

It must of done something or the DA would of asked for these two defendants to be tried as adults.

 

[Henry Ford]

So if no one gave her the alcohol and she supplied it herself is she still blameless?

Yes.I agree with this but you implied she was forced to drink equivalent to being drugged.

What if she supplied the alcohol that the boys got drunk on, diminishing their reasoning ability; does that still mean she bears NO responsibility?

That's a wildly different scenario. Personally, I don't believe alcohol can make a man rape someone ... not in the way it happened in Steubenville, anyway.I disagree; men act just as stupidly as women do, when they are drunk.

Being a victim of a crime does not absolve her of her duty to take care of herself and her behavior doesn't necessarily mitigate the crime.

OK ... so what?Her behavior absolutely doesn't mitigate the crime.

It must of done something or the DA would of asked for these two defendants to be tried as adults.

Why does that mean what you're saying it means?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

So if no one gave her the alcohol and she supplied it herself is she still blameless?

Yes.I agree with this but you implied she was forced to drink equivalent to being drugged.

What if she supplied the alcohol that the boys got drunk on, diminishing their reasoning ability; does that still mean she bears NO responsibility?

That's a wildly different scenario. Personally, I don't believe alcohol can make a man rape someone ... not in the way it happened in Steubenville, anyway.I disagree; men act just as stupidly as women do, when they are drunk.

Being a victim of a crime does not absolve her of her duty to take care of herself and her behavior doesn't necessarily mitigate the crime.

OK ... so what?Her behavior absolutely doesn't mitigate the crime.

It must of done something or the DA would of asked for these two defendants to be tried as adults.

Why? The defendents aren't adults, and I don't see why the actions of the victim would or should change that determination. And I really don't see why "She voluntarily drank to the point that she passed out" should somehow absolve the boys of guilt or lead to a lesser charge. That just nails down their guilt that much more.

 

[pittstownkiller]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

I don't know if I would agree with that Nikki, there was certainly enough talk about Trayvon Martin and what his actions did to provoke a situation; Yousef Hawkins, comes to mind too. I have tried repeatedly to separate my comments on the girl behavior and the crimes committed against her but either I am incapable of doing so or the subject matter doesn't lend itself to this sort of dissemination.

Yousef Hawkins comes to mind? That was almost 25 years ago. What exactly do you remember people saying about what Hawkins did to cause what happened to him? You mean the racists who shouted racial slurs at people protesting his being killed by a mob?The "justification" for Martin was the suggestion that he was beating the guy who shot him to death. Other than that, no one thinks he deserved to get shot.

To refresh your memory on Yousef, there was quite a voice to be heard that he had no business walking in that neighborhood; it was similar with Martin.

That's just pure racism, though. That's not a reason, or a justification for what happened to him, and anyone with any sense at all thinks "wow, that's unbelievably racist and the person saying that is an idiot."

Henry were you in NYC at that time? It was more than a lone racist thought. Do you remember Micheal Griffith or Glenn Moore, it was much the same. I don't mean to imply that rape victims don't get blamed but it isn't that rare in other cases. You are a lawyer, correct, you know better than me if there is an attempt to paint the victim as responsible for the outcome that the defendant is accused of.An interesting contemporary article; it's nice to know who was the problem.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

In this case, there is no question that the victim did not consent. She was passed out, unconscious, and labelled as "dead" by the people taking the video. Yet here we are talking about what she did wrong where she could have avoided being raped.

I agree that this case is an odd case to be having this discussion about. I think some people (on both "sides) are speaking in generalities, and not really about this specific case.

 

[pittstownkiller]

So if no one gave her the alcohol and she supplied it herself is she still blameless?

Yes.I agree with this but you implied she was forced to drink equivalent to being drugged.

What if she supplied the alcohol that the boys got drunk on, diminishing their reasoning ability; does that still mean she bears NO responsibility?

That's a wildly different scenario. Personally, I don't believe alcohol can make a man rape someone ... not in the way it happened in Steubenville, anyway.I disagree; men act just as stupidly as women do, when they are drunk.

Being a victim of a crime does not absolve her of her duty to take care of herself and her behavior doesn't necessarily mitigate the crime.

OK ... so what?Her behavior absolutely doesn't mitigate the crime.

It must of done something or the DA would of asked for these two defendants to be tried as adults.

Why? The defendents aren't adults, and I don't see why the actions of the victim would or should change that determination. And I really don't see why "She voluntarily drank to the point that she passed out" should somehow absolve the boys of guilt or lead to a lesser charge. That just nails down their guilt that much more.

Try to stay grounded, did anyone say it absolved the boys? Could the boys been charged as adults? Their sentences would certainly of been more onerous. The DA had a difficult case, his star witness was so drunk she could not recall a single detail except for puking and waking up naked. If she was sober and this happened, I am sure these boys would be serving their time as adults and for a lot more than 1 year in a JD Hall for rape.

 

[pittstownkiller]

In this case, there is no question that the victim did not consent. She was passed out, unconscious, and labelled as "dead" by the people taking the video. Yet here we are talking about what she did wrong where she could have avoided being raped.

I agree that this case is an odd case to be having this discussion about. I think some people (on both "sides) are speaking in generalities, and not really about this specific case.

I certainly am but it is more just to ask questions than to assign blame

 

[Henry Ford]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

I don't know if I would agree with that Nikki, there was certainly enough talk about Trayvon Martin and what his actions did to provoke a situation; Yousef Hawkins, comes to mind too. I have tried repeatedly to separate my comments on the girl behavior and the crimes committed against her but either I am incapable of doing so or the subject matter doesn't lend itself to this sort of dissemination.

Yousef Hawkins comes to mind? That was almost 25 years ago. What exactly do you remember people saying about what Hawkins did to cause what happened to him? You mean the racists who shouted racial slurs at people protesting his being killed by a mob?The "justification" for Martin was the suggestion that he was beating the guy who shot him to death. Other than that, no one thinks he deserved to get shot.

To refresh your memory on Yousef, there was quite a voice to be heard that he had no business walking in that neighborhood; it was similar with Martin.

That's just pure racism, though. That's not a reason, or a justification for what happened to him, and anyone with any sense at all thinks "wow, that's unbelievably racist and the person saying that is an idiot."

Henry were you in NYC at that time? It was more than a lone racist thought. Do you remember Micheal Griffith or Glenn Moore, it was much the same. I don't mean to imply that rape victims don't get blamed but it isn't that rare in other cases. You are a lawyer, correct, you know better than me if there is an attempt to paint the victim as responsible for the outcome that the defendant is accused of.An interesting contemporary article; it's nice to know who was the problem.

The people who killed a kid for being black?

 

[pittstownkiller]

So if no one gave her the alcohol and she supplied it herself is she still blameless?

Yes.I agree with this but you implied she was forced to drink equivalent to being drugged.

What if she supplied the alcohol that the boys got drunk on, diminishing their reasoning ability; does that still mean she bears NO responsibility?

That's a wildly different scenario. Personally, I don't believe alcohol can make a man rape someone ... not in the way it happened in Steubenville, anyway.I disagree; men act just as stupidly as women do, when they are drunk.

Being a victim of a crime does not absolve her of her duty to take care of herself and her behavior doesn't necessarily mitigate the crime.

OK ... so what?Her behavior absolutely doesn't mitigate the crime.

It must of done something or the DA would of asked for these two defendants to be tried as adults.

Why does that mean what you're saying it means?

It doesn't necessarily. Could the DA asked for them to be tried as adults in Ohio? I am under the impression that there was problems with this case that the DA felt that they could not get a conviction on more serious charges; one of these problems was that the girl's behavior cast some doubt on the boys guilt of more serious charges.

 

[pittstownkiller]

Why is it with of other crimes, it is hardly ever discussed what the victim should have done to avoid the situation (i.e. some guy who gets shot or mugged because they are walking around a bad area of town and should have thought twice about it). But when it comes to rape, the topic always comes up of what the woman did wrong to put herself in the position to get raped?

I don't know if I would agree with that Nikki, there was certainly enough talk about Trayvon Martin and what his actions did to provoke a situation; Yousef Hawkins, comes to mind too. I have tried repeatedly to separate my comments on the girl behavior and the crimes committed against her but either I am incapable of doing so or the subject matter doesn't lend itself to this sort of dissemination.

Yousef Hawkins comes to mind? That was almost 25 years ago. What exactly do you remember people saying about what Hawkins did to cause what happened to him? You mean the racists who shouted racial slurs at people protesting his being killed by a mob?The "justification" for Martin was the suggestion that he was beating the guy who shot him to death. Other than that, no one thinks he deserved to get shot.

To refresh your memory on Yousef, there was quite a voice to be heard that he had no business walking in that neighborhood; it was similar with Martin.

That's just pure racism, though. That's not a reason, or a justification for what happened to him, and anyone with any sense at all thinks "wow, that's unbelievably racist and the person saying that is an idiot."

Henry were you in NYC at that time? It was more than a lone racist thought. Do you remember Micheal Griffith or Glenn Moore, it was much the same. I don't mean to imply that rape victims don't get blamed but it isn't that rare in other cases. You are a lawyer, correct, you know better than me if there is an attempt to paint the victim as responsible for the outcome that the defendant is accused of.An interesting contemporary article; it's nice to know who was the problem.

The people who killed a kid for being black?

If that is what you took away from that article?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Try to stay grounded, did anyone say it absolved the boys? Could the boys been charged as adults? Their sentences would certainly of been more onerous. The DA had a difficult case, his star witness was so drunk she could not recall a single detail except for puking and waking up naked. If she was sober and this happened, I am sure these boys would be serving their time as adults and for a lot more than 1 year in a JD Hall for rape.

I'm not a criminal lawyer, but the fact that the victim was passed out didn't make the case harder for the prosecution -- it made it easier because it removed any question about whether she gave consent. And of course there was the video and pictures and all that other stuff.

 

[pittstownkiller]

Try to stay grounded, did anyone say it absolved the boys? Could the boys been charged as adults? Their sentences would certainly of been more onerous. The DA had a difficult case, his star witness was so drunk she could not recall a single detail except for puking and waking up naked. If she was sober and this happened, I am sure these boys would be serving their time as adults and for a lot more than 1 year in a JD Hall for rape.

I'm not a criminal lawyer, but the fact that the victim was passed out didn't make the case harder for the prosecution -- it made it easier because it removed any question about whether she gave consent. And of course there was the video and pictures and all that other stuff.

There was some discussion of that, apparently it didn't remove any question. The boy said it was consensual, verbalized; the judge determined she was in no condition to give consent by his verdict.