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Another killing at the hands of the Police (5 Viewers)

whoknew said:
He's not a fellow officer in good standing. He's been fired.
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What I meant by "good standing" was that Chauvin was not a trouble-maker for other cops (e.g. a scrupulously rules-following Internal Affairs narc or something like that).

 
Sinn Fein said:
Right - but, that directive should be going out to every police department across the US right now - even if some of those departments already ban the practice.
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Sure, makes total sense. Demilitarizing the police would also help. A huge chunk of the populace poses no threat that warrants that response, so is it really necessary?

 
Stealthycat said:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-third-precinct-police-station-set-on-fire-after-rioters-break-in

You get arrested and ticketed for not wearing a face mask but looters are allowed to burn a police station? 

like I said, this was allowed by city/state and police - they allowed the burning of a police station. Had the police and/or national guard took a stand and stopped the violence (using violence) this wouldn't have happened

I've seen this pattern for 30 years now - when a "protest" happens (and not the good kind of protest), allow the people "protesting" to destroy and loot and vandalize ... and in a few days they'll have it out of their systems. 

Absolutely NOTHING positive comes from riots and looting and destroying .......... nothing. When this happens it needs stopped. 
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A better way to stop these kinds of protests would be to not kill a guy in cuffs, who posed no threat, and started this whole thing again. 

 
Kal El said:
Sure, makes total sense. Demilitarizing the police would also help. A huge chunk of the populace poses no threat that warrants that response, so is it really necessary?
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I disagree on that - if you mean disarming police

Superior force wins a fight - if criminals have better weapons, police won't stand a chance. 

 
Re: Chauvin 

If you assume that the Minneapolis police department authorizes (either expressly or via implication) the force he used on Floyd - what charges are you bringing?

Unfortunately, this is not a simple case, that can be easily wrapped up by arresting Chauvin, and throwing away the key.  It is very likely that Chauvin may have legal defenses that would allow him to go free.  And, if that were to happen - we end up in the same spot.

A better outcome - if this were the situation - would be the mass resignation, firing of police hierarchy and the promise of a system-wide review of use fo force policies and training.

 
Kal El said:
Sure, makes total sense. Demilitarizing the police would also help. A huge chunk of the populace poses no threat that warrants that response, so is it really necessary?
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Based on footage I have been seeing perhaps a huge chunk of the populace does need that kind of gear to deal with. 

 
Kal El said:
A better way to stop these kinds of protests would be to not kill a guy in cuffs, who posed no threat, and started this whole thing again. 
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its not just this instance - anytime there is a trigger than starts violence/looting/riots etc

sometimes its like certain inner cities are just looking for a reason :(  

 
whoknew said:
Doug B said:
What I think Hell Toupee is getting at is that Chauvin's lawyer is potentially using huge-case-cracking information as leverage to delay what would be an insta-arrest for a civilian. It's likely an easier client-defense maneuver to execute than it might otherwise be because I believe there is something of an ethic against arresting a fellow officer in good standing within the precinct and/or union.
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He's not a fellow officer in good standing. He's been fired.

And regardless of what Chauvin's lawyer is doing, isn't there someone smart enough in Minnesota to realize this arrest needs to happen asap?
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The machinations behind the scenes could be unbelievably hairy.

Huge Fish may something akin to a real-life DC Comics villain, who has a ton of politicians and power players in his pocket (not just by cash, but also by threats to loved ones). You might have powerful people essentially afraid to move on Chauvin because it upsets some kind of behind-the-scenes criminal underworld balance in some unknown manner.

Maybe it's the opposite of what I've been positing -- maybe Chauvin can take down a ton of people with what he knows and he's threatening to spill if arrested. Though that would make him a ready target.

Just a hare-brained fantasy conspiracy theory, of course. I just doubt that the reason the arrest has been delayed is a facile reason.

 
Stealthycat said:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-third-precinct-police-station-set-on-fire-after-rioters-break-in

You get arrested and ticketed for not wearing a face mask but looters are allowed to burn a police station? 

like I said, this was allowed by city/state and police - they allowed the burning of a police station. Had the police and/or national guard took a stand and stopped the violence (using violence) this wouldn't have happened

I've seen this pattern for 30 years now - when a "protest" happens (and not the good kind of protest), allow the people "protesting" to destroy and loot and vandalize ... and in a few days they'll have it out of their systems. 

Absolutely NOTHING positive comes from riots and looting and destroying .......... nothing. When this happens it needs stopped. 
Click to expand...
What kind of force? They tried bombing them with tear gas and it didn’t work. Should they open fire? You think that’s doing to de-escalate the situation?

 
Stealthycat said:
its not just this instance - anytime there is a trigger than starts violence/looting/riots etc

sometimes its like certain inner cities are just looking for a reason :(  
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Remember who started the violence in this case. The cops killed a guy and then tried to lie about it. This is a mess and has a long history, not unlike Palestine and Isreal or something. But in this case, the police were the ones who escalated the violence initially. 

 
GroveDiesel said:
The video of the cop driving by protestors who appear to not be doing anything illegal and spraying pepper spray out the window as they drive by is crazy.

If any of those officers involved with the murder took the Warrior Training provided by the police union, the family should sue the garbage out of the union. 

It’s pretty clear that we desperately need to de-militarize our police. They’re being trained to view everyone as a lethal threat and protect themselves over protecting society. That’s not acceptable for our police. The idea of police being heroes is that they are to put their lives on the line to protect and serve society. If they’re out there shooting first asking questions later and then lying and covering things up, they’re no longer heroes, they are jackbooted thugs.
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It is a Catch-22 being a police officer in an urban area.  I have posted this before.  3 Detroit police officers play in my golf league. 2 are black one is white and we talked about this Tuesday night after golf.  There all say on a regular shift that is  not in the vibrant Midtown-Stadium district but the other areas you might get 12  runs a shift and most have the potential to go south fast.  Where I live the police might get 1-2 if any and that is for a traffic accident or something simple.  Usually they are sitting waiting for someone to run a stop sign.  So right away the police from 2 different areas are on totally different stress levels and view people totally different.

Then they say every run in Detroit you are dealing with drug addict's, drunks, thieves, beatings, shoplifters all day long.  They are never dealing with regular people like you and I do everyday.  Then if they are swamped and are late to the run the people scream the police don`t care, if they make a run and it turns physical the people scream police brutality.

Repeat this over and over and over until the police stop viewing people as people but only criminals.  And I think that is what Chauvin did...hey I will just kneel on this guys head as long as it takes..not get off and cuff him.  So many things went wrong there.  And you can see how the other officers acted they had the same type of non-caring attitude as he was kneeling on his head. you would thing one of them would say "STOP" .

I certainly do not know the answer.    I said to them 'Don`t respond to the petty stuff and they stated if a person calls 911 you have to respond or the city can get sued.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Re: Chauvin 

If you assume that the Minneapolis police department authorizes (either expressly or via implication) the force he used on Floyd - what charges are you bringing?

Unfortunately, this is not a simple case, that can be easily wrapped up by arresting Chauvin, and throwing away the key.  It is very likely that Chauvin may have legal defenses that would allow him to go free.  And, if that were to happen - we end up in the same spot.

A better outcome - if this were the situation - would be the mass resignation, firing of police hierarchy and the promise of a system-wide review of use fo force policies and training.
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From reports, restraining a suspect with the knee on their throat is not approved by the Minneapolis police.

 
Stealthycat said:
I disagree on that - if you mean disarming police

Superior force wins a fight - if criminals have better weapons, police won't stand a chance. 
Click to expand...
I never said to disarm the police. I said to demilitarize them. They don't have to bring in armored vehicles for some guy with a pistol, to use a probably poor example. Whatever happened to serve and protect? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with anyone carrying an assault weapon around me, even if they're in uniform. I don't even care to hold one myself, there's no situation I can imagine where I'd need one while walking down the street, or in the woods, for that matter.

 
GroveDiesel said:
It’s pretty clear that we desperately need to de-militarize our police. They’re being trained to view everyone as a lethal threat and protect themselves over protecting society. That’s not acceptable for our police. The idea of police being heroes is that they are to put their lives on the line to protect and serve society. If they’re out there shooting first asking questions later and then lying and covering things up, they’re no longer heroes, they are jackbooted thugs.
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Yes. A thousand times this. Radley Balko has written extensively on the subject of militarized police and its attendant problems. As you allude, the culture of policing these days is also the problem, with it not only being a matter of superior enforcers/inferior citizens, but also a political/union one.

It's a tough row to hoe. The usefulness of public unions in the policing realm has to be questioned by the public. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
Based on footage I have been seeing perhaps a huge chunk of the populace does need that kind of gear to deal with. 
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They were set in motion because of a guy with a badge who likely shouldn't have been wearing one. The police started this, people of any walk of life have a right to live without fear of harassment from positions of authority.

 
Kal El said:
I never said to disarm the police. I said to demilitarize them. They don't have to bring in armored vehicles for some guy with a pistol, to use a probably poor example. Whatever happened to serve and protect? I'm not sure I'm comfortable with anyone carrying an assault weapon around me, even if they're in uniform. I don't even care to hold one myself, there's no situation I can imagine where I'd need one while walking down the street, or in the woods, for that matter.
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I'm for reasonable disarmament, if by disarmament you mean de-escalation of the gear that they're provided. No more military gear. They're citizens and should reflect as much as possible a civilian outlook in dress, temperament, demeanor, and weaponry.

 
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HellToupee said:
:shrug:

was there something illegal going on at the club. mMybe it’s involved with the counterfeit $ and tied to the club. Maybe it’s something else. It sure seems like he wanted Floyd dead
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I don’t think any of what you’re saying has been raised but this is some strange stuff.

- They're paid in cash, Floyd is accused of having a counterfeit bill. The guy that kills him? Also paid in cash from the same place. And the killer knew Floyd was wanted for having a counterfeit bill.

- The owner is manufacturing presumptions here. She has no way of knowing what these two knew or thought, but what’s more bouncers and security always know each other, they work and coordinate together for work. Even bartenders know security.

- In NoLa we had a huge scandal a few years back with cops being paid in cash. Some even had security companies. This ended after a DOJ investigation. I’m really surprised to hear this happening in Minny. As I understand it the “modern” way of doing this is to have all private security details run through the PD and no cash, payment is made through an office, and every detail is approved and logged.

 
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rockaction said:
I'm for reasonable disarmament, if by disarmament you mean de-escalation of the gear that they're provided. No more military gear. They're citizens and should reflect as civilian as possible outlook in dress, temperment, demeanor, and weaponry.
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Exactly, I couldn't figure out how to articulate that properly, but you nailed it. Maybe a vest under the uniform, just in case someone forgets their brain at home that day.

 
Da Guru said:
It is a Catch-22 being a police officer in an urban area.  I have posted this before.  3 Detroit police officers play in my golf league. 2 are black one is white and we talked about this Tuesday night after golf.  There all say on a regular shift that is  not in the vibrant Midtown-Stadium district but the other areas you might get 12  runs a shift and most have the potential to go south fast.  Where I live the police might get 1-2 if any and that is for a traffic accident or something simple.  Usually they are sitting waiting for someone to run a stop sign.  So right away the police from 2 different areas are on totally different stress levels and view people totally different.

Then they say every run in Detroit you are dealing with drug addict's, drunks, thieves, beatings, shoplifters all day long.  They are never dealing with regular people like you and I do everyday.  Then if they are swamped and are late to the run the people scream the police don`t care, if they make a run and it turns physical the people scream police brutality.

Repeat this over and over and over until the police stop viewing people as people but only criminals.  And I think that is what Chauvin did...hey I will just kneel on this guys head as long as it takes..not get off and cuff him.  So many things went wrong there.  And you can see how the other officers acted they had the same type of non-caring attitude as he was kneeling on his head. you would thing one of them would say "STOP" .

I certainly do not know the answer.    I said to them 'Don`t respond to the petty stuff and they stated if a person calls 911 you have to respond or the city can get sued.
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I certainly sympathize as I can’t imagine having to deal with such difficult situations over and over and over again. But that’s why this comes down to training. There needs to be the right support structure in place to get the results we want and need. If the risk is high to become jaded and numb, then constant training and reinforcement of how to properly interact along with counseling services are even more important.

It’s not the same, but I see guys get jaded and numb to dealing with hazardous materials in my job all the time. Bad companies don’t give a crap and their employees do stupid stuff that puts themselves and others at risk because they have just grown numb to the potential impacts of their actions. Good companies continually train their employees and put faces to actual victims so that workers take their jobs seriously and are less likely to put themselves and others at risk.

 
Da Guru said:
Ilov80s said:
St Paul mayor sounds like a moron. He says he doesn’t recognize the looters and thinks they are outsiders. 
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A very weak moron.
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:shrug:

I know Mayor Carter. He is a good dude. Not sure we should be calling people morons when they are in such a tough spot. You crack down hard, things get worse. You let the rioters riot, things get worse. There is no simple answer here.

 
Amused to Death said:
From reports, restraining a suspect with the knee on their throat is not approved by the Minneapolis police.
Click to expand...
I would be wary of "reports" here, and more specifically, whether this practice was allowed/trained by police hierarchy - even in the face of written prohibitions.

I don't know any of the background facts here - but if Chauvin and other police officers get up and testify, this was SOP and encouraged method of restraint, and they were simply following their training - it makes for a very murky case against Chauvin.

I am not suggesting any of that is true - only leaving open the possibility that is the conversation that is going on behind closed doors.

 
the moops said:
:shrug:

I know Mayor Carter. He is a good dude. Not sure we should be calling people morons when they are in such a tough spot. You crack down hard, things get worse. You let the rioters riot, things get worse. There is no simple answer here.
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I agree, I am sure he is a good dude and not a moron. 

 
Da Guru said:
It is a Catch-22 being a police officer in an urban area.  I have posted this before.  3 Detroit police officers play in my golf league. 2 are black one is white and we talked about this Tuesday night after golf.  There all say on a regular shift that is  not in the vibrant Midtown-Stadium district but the other areas you might get 12  runs a shift and most have the potential to go south fast.  Where I live the police might get 1-2 if any and that is for a traffic accident or something simple.  Usually they are sitting waiting for someone to run a stop sign.  So right away the police from 2 different areas are on totally different stress levels and view people totally different.

Then they say every run in Detroit you are dealing with drug addict's, drunks, thieves, beatings, shoplifters all day long.  They are never dealing with regular people like you and I do everyday.  Then if they are swamped and are late to the run the people scream the police don`t care, if they make a run and it turns physical the people scream police brutality.

Repeat this over and over and over until the police stop viewing people as people but only criminals.  And I think that is what Chauvin did...hey I will just kneel on this guys head as long as it takes..not get off and cuff him.  So many things went wrong there.  And you can see how the other officers acted they had the same type of non-caring attitude as he was kneeling on his head. you would thing one of them would say "STOP" .

I certainly do not know the answer.    I said to them 'Don`t respond to the petty stuff and they stated if a person calls 911 you have to respond or the city can get sued.
Click to expand...
No one is denying that being a cop isn't a difficult job. It's very difficult and an incredibly important one as they serve to protect the citizens and put their lives on the line on a daily basis. Not everyone mentally fit to be a cop and if you aren't, you shouldn't be apart of the police force. It's that simple, there are plenty of other careers to choose from. No one forced Chauvin to become a cop, he chose that himself and he clearly isn't fit for the position. This is why for a job like this there needs to be rigorous training and thorough background checks to make sure they have the right people who are capable of staying calm, being a good de-escalator and doing their jobs correctly.

 
whoknew said:
Wow - MN State Police tweeted the following - 

"In the course of clearing the streets and restoring order at Lake Street and Snelling Avenue, four people were arrested by State Patrol troopers, including three members of a CNN crew. The three were released once they were confirmed to be members of the media."

--

That's just a flat out lie. The crew identified themselves immediately. 

My goodness.
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Of all the people to arrest they pick media members who seemingly did nothing wrong

 
Da Guru said:
It is a Catch-22 being a police officer in an urban area.  I have posted this before.  3 Detroit police officers play in my golf league. 2 are black one is white and we talked about this Tuesday night after golf.  There all say on a regular shift that is  not in the vibrant Midtown-Stadium district but the other areas you might get 12  runs a shift and most have the potential to go south fast.  Where I live the police might get 1-2 if any and that is for a traffic accident or something simple.  Usually they are sitting waiting for someone to run a stop sign.  So right away the police from 2 different areas are on totally different stress levels and view people totally different.

Then they say every run in Detroit you are dealing with drug addict's, drunks, thieves, beatings, shoplifters all day long.  They are never dealing with regular people like you and I do everyday.  Then if they are swamped and are late to the run the people scream the police don`t care, if they make a run and it turns physical the people scream police brutality.

Repeat this over and over and over until the police stop viewing people as people but only criminals.  And I think that is what Chauvin did...hey I will just kneel on this guys head as long as it takes..not get off and cuff him.  So many things went wrong there.  And you can see how the other officers acted they had the same type of non-caring attitude as he was kneeling on his head. you would thing one of them would say "STOP" .

I certainly do not know the answer.    I said to them 'Don`t respond to the petty stuff and they stated if a person calls 911 you have to respond or the city can get sued.
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Being a cop in an urban area Is not easy but there is absolutely zero nil nada justification for slowly murdering someone for no reason.  Also just to correct your comment he was already cuffed.

 
Bucsfan5493 said:
No one is denying that being a cop isn't a difficult job. It's very difficult and an incredibly important one as they serve to protect the citizens and put their lives on the line on a daily basis. Not everyone mentally fit to be a cop and if you aren't, you shouldn't be apart of the police force. It's that simple, there are plenty of other careers to choose from. No one forced Chauvin to become a cop, he chose that himself and he clearly isn't fit for the position. This is why for a job like this there needs to be rigorous training and thorough background checks to make sure they have the right people who are capable of staying calm, being a good de-escalator and doing their jobs correctly.
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and why we need to seriously re-think a lot of how we police urban centers. 

 
Bucsfan5493 said:
No one is denying that being a cop isn't a difficult job. It's very difficult and an incredibly important one as they serve to protect the citizens and put their lives on the line on a daily basis. Not everyone mentally fit to be a cop and if you aren't, you shouldn't be apart of the police force. It's that simple, there are plenty of other careers to choose from. No one forced Chauvin to become a cop, he chose that himself and he clearly isn't fit for the position. This is why for a job like this there needs to be rigorous training and thorough background checks to make sure they have the right people who are capable of staying calm, being a good de-escalator and doing their jobs correctly.
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I think most start with good intentions but get worn down by the environment they work in and people they deal with everyday. Just like some doctors and nurses who witness so much they lose their compassion for the individual person. 

 
Doug B said:
I'm a little surprised that in recent years, that police departments around the country haven't established internal "arrest for show" procedures of some kind. If, internally, police (unions?) REALLY feel they should be above getting summarily arrested for anything done on duty ... it would seem that even the police unions would recognize the value of good optics. Even if they're fake optics.

Set up a room or two in each precinct or jailhouse or whatever that's extra nice and comfortable ... kind of like a decent hotel room. Just have the cop stay in there while arrested. At least while media scrutiny is at its highest. Can probably start shuttling the "arrested" cop around (e.g. to his/her home, other places) after some time has passed and the public & media have moved on.
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Sure..but the blowback from that would be huge too.

Hell, we (Nashville) voted on referendum for police oversight boards.  Leading up to the vote we got all the push back...after it was approved there was more, then haggling over actual legislation where the voters were accused by legislators of not supporting police and trying too hard to prosecute them instead.  All because people thought there was a need for independent oversight rather than things getting swept under the rug as they often do.

 
Da Guru said:
If you research the impact riots of this size have on cities it is not pretty.  White flight occurs, poor conditions that black folk were already living in worsen, many stores and business never reopen in the area. Rebuilding is very slow as nobody wants to invest. It can take decades as whatever is burned will eventually get torn down and sit on vacant land that gets overgrown.  It is just a tragic situation.

When I first got out of college I drove down a once vibrant Grand River street in Detroit every day.  The area the Detroit riots started looked like a third world country for decades and was desolate.   
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Lots of parts are still that way

 
Tool said:
Your post read as if you were trying to provide some justification for what happened
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Not at all.  Just informing what some Detroit Police officers talked about and possibly how this can happen when police stop looking at people as people.

 
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Da Guru said:
Not at all.  Just informing what some Detroit Police officers talked about and possibly how this can happen when police stop looking at people as people.
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On the other hand, I know a Detroit cop who keeps a collection of pictures of all the dead bodies he has found and once alluded to having killed a homeless guy for fun. He was an absolute monster of a person in grade school and high school. Racist, cruel, closeted homosexual who abused women, obsessively wanted everyone else to follow the rules, etc. His dad was a cop who used his police powers to harass the family of his ex-wife. So while there are plenty of good cops (my uncle was an amazing, kind and gentle man), it's also a safe place for some really abusive people.  

 
Sinn Fein said:
I would be wary of "reports" here, and more specifically, whether this practice was allowed/trained by police hierarchy - even in the face of written prohibitions.

I don't know any of the background facts here - but if Chauvin and other police officers get up and testify, this was SOP and encouraged method of restraint, and they were simply following their training - it makes for a very murky case against Chauvin.

I am not suggesting any of that is true - only leaving open the possibility that is the conversation that is going on behind closed doors.
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I think the public interest would be well-served by hearing that sort of testimony under oath.  (If that's what is taking place, of course).

 
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