Any Electricians here? (1 Viewer)

[Nick Vermeil]

So I had a handyman do some work to finish my basement and we added a few outlets.  The whole job was basically a junk show so I didn't realize until last night that where I had asked for a quad outlet he put in a duplex.  However, when I was attaching the face plate last night, it sparked and the breaker tripped.  I pulled out the outlet and see that he actually run two sets of AWG to the box but connected them both to the same outlet: two positive fee lines together in a twist connector with one cable out to positive post on outlet, two negative lines in a twist connector with one cable out to the negative post, etc.  WTF?  That can't possibly be okay can it?  

I also noticed that there is a nick in the negative line out of the twist cap.  So I'm not sure if that nick was already there and that's why it sparked or if the nick is there because the two feed lines connected to the cap caused it. Can I replace the nicked line and leave the rest the same? Do I need to open up the box, separate out the wires, add a second duplex and replace the nicked feed line? Any thoughts?

Calling:

@ChiefD, other like minded FBG's...

 

[ChiefD]

Do you know for sure that both lines are hot?

Meaning, have you separated them and tested both sets independently?

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Do you know for sure that both lines are hot?

Meaning, have you separated them and tested both sets independently?

I don't, I will test them tonight.  But I assume they are since I called for a quad and he ran two lines. He could have just jumped them I suppose. The original electrician did not complete the job.    

 

[El Floppo]

no favors you can pull? stay safe, gb.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

no favors you can pull? stay safe, gb.

All out of favors!  And there is no way I'm letting this guy back into my house. 

 

[ChiefD]

I don't, I will test them tonight.  But I assume they are since I called for a quad and he ran two lines. He could have just jumped them I suppose. The original electrician did not complete the job.    

Actually, the more I think about this, they are probably both not hot.

If it sparked as you were putting the plate on, then that means the wires were hot already when you started. They would have tripped the breaker long before that.

The nicked wire is probably your answer.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Actually, the more I think about this, they are probably both not hot.

If it sparked as you were putting the plate on, then that means the wires were hot already when you started. They would have tripped the breaker long before that.

The nicked wire is probably your answer.

Thanks.  Will check them.  Say they are both hot.  That would be bad, yes?

 

[Quez]

Is something else being ran off of that 2nd hot?  If it's not hot I would think they would have just put wire nuts on the end of it, and not connected it to anything.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

I assume if you disconnect the wire only one is going to be hot, the one that isn't is feeding another recep downstream from the one in question.

Have you plugged anything into the outlet? If you had and it was 240 (both wire being hot) it would have smoked whatever you plugged in

 

[Nick Vermeil]

I assume if you disconnect the wire only one is going to be hot, the one that isn't is feeding another recep downstream from the one in question.

Have you plugged anything into the outlet? If you had and it was 240 (both wire being hot) it would have smoked whatever you plugged in

I hadn't. And I can't see any other receptive it could be feeding. 

 

[Cowboysfan8]

I hadn't. And I can't see any other receptive it could be feeding. 

Hmm, when I read "added a few receps" that was my first assumption. Separate and test and we'll go from there. I can't imagine they're both hot.

The one in question isn't switch controlled is it?

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Hmm, when I read "added a few receps" that was my first assumption. Separate and test and we'll go from there. I can't imagine they're both hot.

The one in question isn't switch controlled is it?

Nope. I believe the original electrician ran two lines as I wanted two Duplexes. It's for my computer desk. However he didn't complete the job. The handyman/contractor set the receptacles at the end. He and I are not really on speaking terms. He may not even know what happened, he brought through so many subs. Even if I do call him, communicating might be difficult, if you know what I'm saying. 

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Is something else being ran off of that 2nd hot?  If it's not hot I would think they would have just put wire nuts on the end of it, and not connected it to anything.

That's what I would think but no, they are all under the same connectors. 

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Nope. I believe the original electrician ran two lines as I wanted two Duplexes. It's for my computer desk. However he didn't complete the job. The handyman/contractor set the receptacles at the end. He and I are not really on speaking terms. He may not even know what happened, he brought through so many subs. Even if I do call him, communicating might be difficult, if you know what I'm saying. 

Understood.

 The only reason he would have ran 2 circuits to the same box would be if you wanted each of the receps in that box to be separate circuits which also seems an odd idea (to me anyway). Interested to hear how the testing goes 

 

[MindCrime]

Yeah, the number of outlets has nothing to do with the number of wires run. You can put 12 duplex outlets on the same set of incoming wires,  jumped from one outlet to the next, as long as the breaker is big enough to handle the amperage. As said above, the only reason to have two sets of wires is 

a- you wanted two duplex outlets, each on a separate breaker. 

Or

b- the second set of wires feeds the next outlet on the same breaker somewhere else in the room

my guess , as others have said, is the nick in the wire hit the contacts on the outlet or the screws for the face plate.

 

[DocHolliday]

Yeah, the number of outlets has nothing to do with the number of wires run. You can put 12 duplex outlets on the same set of incoming wires,  jumped from one outlet to the next, as long as the breaker is big enough to handle the amperage. As said above, the only reason to have two sets of wires is 

a- you wanted two duplex outlets, each on a separate breaker. 

Or

b- the second set of wires feeds the next outlet on the same breaker somewhere else in the room

my guess , as others have said, is the nick in the wire hit the contacts on the outlet or the screws for the face plate.

My thoughts as well. 

 

[parasaurolophus]

Is this is a metal box? Can you post a picture?

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Is this is a metal box? Can you post a picture?

Yes metal. I'll try to post a pic after the kids go to bed. 

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Yes metal. I'll try to post a pic after the kids go to bed. 

99% chance the nicked wire touched the box imo

Edit: when the sparks flew I assume it tripped a breaker?

 

[The Z Machine]

The wiring sounds ok, except for the nick. The original electrician may have run another romex line out of that box to feed another outlet.

You could separate out the lines, energize the circuit and see what's hot. Then check the other outlets (and lights) to see what is and what is not energized.

You could also flip the breaker, put a tracer on one of the lines (hot, not neutral) and see where that signal is picked up. This route is a bit safer as the circuit isn't energized, but requires some hardware.

Also, you should always take copious photos of the electrical, plumbing, and HVAC lines before the drywall guys up.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Also, you should always take copious photos of the electrical, plumbing, and HVAC lines before the drywall guys up.

This is great advice and I do. It's solved many issues iber the three years we have been renovating various ares. I have a pic of this area before the wire was run and video just after the insulation was sprayed. Not enough detail to sort out what's happening. 

 

[Nick Vermeil]

99% chance the nicked wire touched the box imo

Edit: when the sparks flew I assume it tripped a breaker?

Correct. Breaker tripped on spark. 

 

[Thunderlips]

220....221...whatever it takes.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

Correct. Breaker tripped on spark. 

So if only one tripped both Romex you have in that box are the same circuit

 

[Nick Vermeil]

Only one tripped. I still have to test to see if both are hot. 

 

[The General]

It's the amps that will kill you.

 

[ChiefD]

Only one tripped. I still have to test to see if both are hot. 

I can tell you right now only one is hot.

If they were both hot your breaker would have tripped before you ever got to the face plate.

 

[The Z Machine]

Having two circuits in a single box is rare. I'm not an electrician, so I don't know if it's code or not.

However, I do have a triple gang switch box in a bedroom in my house that has two separate breaker circuits in it.  It controls lights in two different rooms. I didn't put in the electrical, but I know this from changing out switches over the years.

 

[jabarony]

I can tell you right now only one is hot.

If they were both hot your breaker would have tripped before you ever got to the face plate.

What does this mean?  Are you suggesting if the two B/W pairs were both hot off of separate breakers, they would trip when making contact with each other?  That's not the case.

I agree that in the twisted cap, one is probably hot In, and the other side Out to the next outlet down the line... if it's actually connected to an outlet, elsewhere, is another story.  Easy to figure out:

Breaker Off

Confirm not hot.

Undo all circuits and let hang loose (cover in tape if you are worried they may touch something/each other)

Breaker On

Check for a hot pair.

Check the other pair.

Best guess is you'll find one side hot and the other not, which, again, is off to somewhere else in series.  Check every outlet around the area to see what may be off due to the open twist caps.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

What does this mean?  Are you suggesting if the two B/W pairs were both hot off of separate breakers, they would trip when making contact with each other?  That's not the case.

Correct. 

But when the nick shorted it out it would have tripped both breakers

 

[Nick Vermeil]

They were not both hot. I trimmed the wire short of the nick, reconnected, taped and back in business. Thanks for the advice all.

i still have no idea what that other wire goes to. That's my next task. 

 

[belljr]

They were not both hot. I trimmed the wire short of the nick, reconnected, taped and back in business. Thanks for the advice all.

i still have no idea what that other wire goes to. That's my next task. 

Light switch Or that was the line coming in. He cut it. Put the outlet and didnt interupt the run