Any updates on Palmer? (1 Viewer)

[StanLeyBush]

I'm in the middle of a startup dynasty draft and I'm thinking about drafting Palmer. Are there any Cincy homers that can give some feedback on his recovery? Anyone else know anything? I've got CJ already, could be a nice combo to secure but his injury status could also swing the other way on me.

 

[MKB4®]

The Bengals won’t know until training camp whether there’s a realistic chance that Palmer can play early in the season. He didn’t have much to say about his recovery from reconstructive surgery last week.

“Everything’s going great,” he said. “It’s a long, slow process, and I’m moving along. As the rehab moves along and the leg gets stronger and better, I can do more things.”

 

[StanLeyBush]

The Bengals won’t know until training camp whether there’s a realistic chance that Palmer can play early in the season. He didn’t have much to say about his recovery from reconstructive surgery last week.

“Everything’s going great,” he said. “It’s a long, slow process, and I’m moving along. As the rehab moves along and the leg gets stronger and better, I can do more things.”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not the most reassuring news...

 

[Bonecrusher]

The Bengals won’t know until training camp whether there’s a realistic chance that Palmer can play early in the season. He didn’t have much to say about his recovery from reconstructive surgery last week.

“Everything’s going great,” he said. “It’s a long, slow process, and I’m moving along. As the rehab moves along and the leg gets stronger and better, I can do more things.”

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not the most reassuring news...
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From a Bengal's message board:TJ was on channel 5 Sports Rush last night. They asked him about Carson and he said that if you would have asked him a month ago he would have said he was 60% sure Carson would not be back for the opener, now he is 75% sure that he will be. He said Carson is already doing drops and making all the throws and looks incredible.

I still dont think Carson will start the first game; I am expecting him to be ready either one week prior to or after the bye [wk5] but I do not expect him to miss half the season like others have stated.

Things to keep in mind -

Its his non-plant leg,

he will be wearing the same brace that he wore in college and first year as a pro.

he is not a running/scrambling QB.

he is on schedule - running, jogging, now throwing >> no setbacks yet.

 

[QuizGuy66]

according to Peter King, there will be an SI article about the rehab coming soon.

-QG

 

[Family Matters]

FWIW-my Dr. is a trainer for a local high school that is considered a football factory of sorts and I asked him about Palmer. I know it's not the NFL or college but it's still a Dr's insight. His response was interesting. He based it what he has first hand knowledge of and what he's seen and studied.

He said Palmer will be challenged to overcome 2 things regarding the injury:

1. Physical issues.

2. Mental issues.

He said that overcoming the injury in order to play is very difficult due the level of the injury. He said he will likely recover enough to get back on the field if he's lucky but that he will then have to overcome the mental side of it.

The mental part is an aspect many athletes do not recover from. They lose confidence in their knees. They start to think about the things that could go wrong again:

>Defender hits the knee.

>Foot gets caught in the turf.

>Player inadvertantly rolls up from behind.

Because they think about these things they miss a play here and there. Maybe they overthrow a WR or TE or make an icompletion for 3rd down causing a punt. His point is that they rarely come back the same as they were before the injury. Only about 10% make it back to pre-injury form.

Palmer may do ok but he's looking at odds that are against him. As a Bengals fan I hope he returns as good as new.

 

[JAA]

If I drafted Palmer in a dynasty league I would not expect him to play this season.

Im not sure I would draft him in a redraft at all

 

[bjlmonster]

Drafting Palmer in a dynasty is not an issue to me. He will eventually get back to where he was. As for a re-draft, who knows until we get into camp and see.

 

[MKB4®]

Carson Palmer Update

GEOFF HOBSON

5/9/2006

Let’s not follow up on Carson Palmer. Let’s follow through on the Bengals Pro Bowl quarterback as workouts return to Paul Brown Stadium this week.

Because when all is said and done, he’ll have to follow through on that rehabbing left knee where his team’s Super Bowl hopes hinge.

“If you don’t follow through,” Palmer has mused, “the ball can go all over the place. High. Low.”

High is where hopes are surrounding Palmer even though he won’t be on the field. By all accounts, Palmer’s rehab since he returned to Cincinnati seven weeks ago has been smoother than his release. No one is backing off the Opening Day goal. It’s far from a pipe cinch. But it’s not a pipe dream, either.

But the right arm needs that front left knee first.

“You’ve got be able to bend the knees,” says Bengals quarterbacks coach Ken Zampese, offering a cliff notes passing clinic. “You want to get your toe pointed on the outside of the target, not crossed over.”

Now Zampese goes into a throwing motion.

“Because my hips can’t release through. I can’t finish my hips. I’m locked off,” Zampese says with his toe crossed. “I can’t finish up here. My release point is down here and the ball dies. You can’t use your arm. Your release point drops when you cross over.”

After the rookies have their camp this weekend at PBS (report Friday night, practice Saturday, Sunday, Monday), the veterans arrive Tuesday for the first of their four three-day voluntary camps before the mandatory June 15-18 minicamp.

Palmer has said he doubts he’ll get any work in those camps, although it is becoming increasingly clear he can’t be put on any physically unable to perform lists if the Opening Day goal is to remain attainable. Being put on such a list would mean he can’t participate in team activities.

Although his rehab has been guarded like a presidential bike ride, he has alluded to drills for footwork and weight work for his lower body. Clearly, the legs are a big part in the mechanics of the passing game, although he has been saying he can only do drops at half speed.

“If you don’t finish the throw,” Palmer says, “your accuracy changes. Your power changes. You definitely need a lot of balance and strength.”

That’s the idea behind the tedious footwork drills that is taking up much of his four-hour days with the therapists. Palmer has gone nowhere near a coach on the field, but Zampese knows both legs must work in unison and are equally important because the throwing motion is supposed to be like a whip through the body.

But he also agrees the front leg is the key to accuracy.

“It’s finishing the throw and it’s also building collectively to get to that point,” Zampese says. “It’s part of the same motion, the same finish. All of a sudden, you back off the throw, and it’s different.”

The front leg can’t be gimpy because the idea is for the thrower to keep it solidly under him and flexed. If not, he’s throwing off the back foot and losing velocity and accuracy. Having the confidence to step up and follow through allows the passer to snap the ball through a high release.

And velocity and accuracy have been hallmarks of Palmer’s first two seasons, particularly last year when he completed a league-leading 67.8 percent of his 509 passes.

Zampese ought to be able to catch a flaw. After each practice he jots down what ails each quarterback mechanically in prescription-like form. For instance, if the good doctor scribbles elbow up, left toe, clicking heels, it means the guy is dropping his shoulder, his left toe isn’t pointing in the right direction, and his footwork on his drop is sloppy.

Zampese can already show Palmer some plays from last season when he didn’t use his front leg properly.

On a wild incompletion to tight end Reggie Kelly in the left flat, Zampese observed, “His (left) toe is pointed so he’s throwing across his body. There’s 10 yards of lateral difference. It takes that much to yank the ball across your body. When the left foot spins, you know he tried to do it too late.”

A low completion over the middle to rookie wide receiver Chris Henry illustrates what can happen when a passer doesn’t follow through decisively.

“It’s a new route and rookie receiver, he waited and he wasn’t sure and there’s not much of a follow through,” Zampese says. “If the ball’s up higher, it’s a touchdown.”

Lately when Palmer has met the media, he has talked about how he’s not a big fan of the numbing repetition of rehab. But he knows he literally has to keep a leg up on it because of a passer’s all important footwork.

Asked if injuring his back or plant leg would have been worse for Palmer, Zampese shrugged.

“I don’t know,” he said. “I’ve never had one of these.”

With football set to return to PBS for the first time in four months and the wait still on, he could have been speaking for everyone.

http://www.bengals.com

 

[TME]

His point is that they rarely come back the same as they were before the injury. Only about 10% make it back to pre-injury form.

Palmer may do ok but he's looking at odds that are against him. As a Bengals fan I hope he returns as good as new.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good post. One thing that caught my eye however, was that the 10% seems very low. Doesn't it? Maybe it's 10% in the non-NFL world, but in the past 5 years or so, it seems like everyone succesfully returns from serious knee injury - McGahee, Taylor, Edge, Walker is doing well, etc. Now certainly "everyone" is an exageration, but I bet the success rate in the NFL with the best doctors and rehab programs is much higher...certainly north of 50%. Wouldn't you think?I am hoping he comes back good as new too, but I hope they do not risk putting him in too early if it means risk of reinjury and longer term issues.

 

[Family Matters]

His point is that they rarely come back the same as they were before the injury. Only about 10% make it back to pre-injury form.

Palmer may do ok but he's looking at odds that are against him. As a Bengals fan I hope he returns as good as new.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good post. One thing that caught my eye however, was that the 10% seems very low. Doesn't it? Maybe it's 10% in the non-NFL world, but in the past 5 years or so, it seems like everyone succesfully returns from serious knee injury - McGahee, Taylor, Edge, Walker is doing well, etc. Now certainly "everyone" is an exageration, but I bet the success rate in the NFL with the best doctors and rehab programs is much higher...certainly north of 50%. Wouldn't you think?I am hoping he comes back good as new too, but I hope they do not risk putting him in too early if it means risk of reinjury and longer term issues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wish I knew but I don't. Maybe he's rerring to the degree of Palmer's injury. Keep in mind he blew out the knee 3 ways. Not just the usual ACL.

 

[cstu]

His point is that they rarely come back the same as they were before the injury. Only about 10% make it back to pre-injury form.

Palmer may do ok but he's looking at odds that are against him. As a Bengals fan I hope he returns as good as new.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good post. One thing that caught my eye however, was that the 10% seems very low. Doesn't it? Maybe it's 10% in the non-NFL world, but in the past 5 years or so, it seems like everyone succesfully returns from serious knee injury - McGahee, Taylor, Edge, Walker is doing well, etc. Now certainly "everyone" is an exageration, but I bet the success rate in the NFL with the best doctors and rehab programs is much higher...certainly north of 50%. Wouldn't you think?I am hoping he comes back good as new too, but I hope they do not risk putting him in too early if it means risk of reinjury and longer term issues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wish I knew but I don't. Maybe he's rerring to the degree of Palmer's injury. Keep in mind he blew out the knee 3 ways. Not just the usual ACL.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's a pocket QB, so it shouldn't change his ability to play. I think it will take him longer to recover, but when he's 100% he'll be fine.

 

[cstu]

Trent Green has a similar injury in the preseason after signing with the Rams (opening the door for Warner). He tore his ACL, MCL and lateral meniscus in his left knee (same as Palmer) and was perfectly fine in 2000. I think it's asking a lot for Palmer to play week one and he should wait until at least week 6 after the bye.

 

[cws3030]

Trent Green has a similar injury in the preseason after signing with the Rams (opening the door for Warner).  He tore his ACL, MCL and lateral meniscus in his left knee (same as Palmer) and was perfectly fine in 2000.  I think it's asking a lot for Palmer to play week one and he should wait until at least week 6 after the bye.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i agree. if i owned palmer in a dynasty i would hope that they'd wait and make sure that he 110% ready not 90-95% just to rush him out there for week one.re-draft i'll wait to see his adp to determine if he is worth a gamble

 

[yellowdog]

If I drafted Palmer in a dynasty league I would not expect him to play this season.

Im not sure I would draft him in a redraft at all

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is this based on information from your wife concerning the injury?

 

[Family Matters]

Trent Green has a similar injury in the preseason after signing with the Rams (opening the door for Warner).  He tore his ACL, MCL and lateral meniscus in his left knee (same as Palmer) and was perfectly fine in 2000.  I think it's asking a lot for Palmer to play week one and he should wait until at least week 6 after the bye.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Was Greens' the trifacta like Palmers? I don't remember that being the case. It just adds more issues to rehabbing back to 100%.

 

[SoFresh&SoClean]

Hungrier Palmer guts it out

By GEOFF HOBSON

May 10, 2006

Posted: 4:25 p.m.

Palmer: "I’ve been such a fast healer"

Chad Johnson stage-whispered it Wednesday.

Yes, he thinks so. He thinks Carson Palmer is going to be the Opening Day quarterback.

“Watching him,” Johnson said, “you wouldn’t know he got hurt.”

It’s hard for Palmer to realize it, too, because he feels like he can run a marathon, ski, or delve into his offseason passion of pick-up basketball. He can’t do any of it, but he knows he’s in a far better place than when he arrived in Cincinnati in late March.

“I’m nowhere near that,” he said.

Palmer and his medical and rehab team still don’t have a date when he’ll be cleared for team activity following his Jan. 10 reconstructive left knee surgery. He doubts it is going to be before the July 29 start of training camp. But if he’s being conservative with it, there is also cautious optimism he’ll be cleared for training camp in time to keep the Opening Day goal alive. No one as of yet has taken the opener off the table, and he says he hasn’t had to be eased off his rehab.

“I know it would be devastating for the knee and I have to listen to the guys who went to medical school for 40 years,” said Palmer of the things he wishes he can do. “This is a hard time now because the guys are coming around and talking about playing.

“I’ve been such a fast healer. Ankle sprains. Broken bones. Knee surgery is different. I have to tell myself I have to take it slower. When I see guys doing squats in the weight room, I just can’t go in there and do squats. When I see them sprinting on the field, I can’t go out and sprint. And I won’t be able to do 7-on-7. I’ve got to follow the protocol. Yeah, it is frustrating because I feel like I can do it.”

It will get worse next week when the voluntary camps start and Johnson is going to be out there with the rest of the receivers and everyone will be wanting to know how many snaps the veteran backup QBs each took with the first team.

Palmer doubts he’ll be in team drills in May and June, but the June 15-17 mandatory minicamp that closes up shop is still nearly six weeks away from training camp. He could be jogging on the side by the end of this month’s sessions.

“I really don’t have a worst day,” Palmer said of rehab. “I just can’t stand doing rehab. I’d rather be out on the field throwing or playing basketball.”

Palmer has met the bare necessities for those pleasures. He has thrown on the field (“There’s nothing wrong with his arm,” Johnson says), but he says he’s barely dropping back and is pretty much standing still.

He says that’s how he’s also playing basketball. Because he can’t run down the floor, he’s reportedly challenged anyone he can find in sneakers to play “Pig,” “Horse,” or any other kind of shooting game. He can, apparently, let fly with a pretty mean three-point jumper even though he’s not supposed to run yet.

He says the four-hour daily rehab has been pretty intense. He’s doing half-speed footwork, but says he jacks it up to about 70 percent for such drills as jumping over bags to simulate his drops.

He’s jogging underwater. He’s doing leg presses.

“I should be able to start jogging (on land) in a few weeks,” he said.

But he knows they’re going to take it slow. Even if he’s cleared for the first practice of training camp, he thinks it won’t be full go.

“I don’t think it’s going to be ‘OK, you’re cleared, just let it fly,’ " he said. "I don’t think the program is going to be like that. I just have to be patient.”

Hoop dreams?

Palmer says the therapists have done a good job mixing it up so the tedium won’t kill him. He’s been doing a lot of band work for resistance, he says, and he’s been using it in his throwing motion to build up the muscles in the front throwing leg.

He has developed a hoop relationship with his newest backup, Anthony Wright, even if Wright drives him nuts by making short bankers. He says he’s shot baskets with Wright as well as pool with the other new backup, Doug Johnson.

“They’re great additions for our team,” Palmer said. “They’ve been in different places with different systems on different teams, on winning teams and losing teams. I think they’ll be able to help my game.”

Still saying all the right things, isn’t he?

Success didn’t turn the Everyman into Celebrity Man, and tragedy hasn’t changed him, either. If he’s bitter and bored, he sure isn’t showing it. He hasn’t been short and surly with the media and it doesn’t look like he’s missing any rehab sessions as much as he hates them.

“I hope not. I hope it hasn’t changed me,” Palmer said. “I still feel the same. If anything, I’m hungrier. I’m still definitely excited about the opportunity. It’s just like anything in life. Whatever you can’t have, you want. And I want to play football right now.”

Cutting out golf and paintball, the game he plays with his offensive line in his backyard, have been pretty much his only concessions to the surgery.

“I don’t have any crazy hobbies. I’m not an extreme mountain biker or anything like that,” Palmer said. “I’m not a motorcycle rider or a bungee jumper. I’m just taking it easy.”

Of course, answering when he’s going to be able to come back has turned into a full-time hobby. From relatives, friends, strangers. He keeps it low profile, anyway, but when he does go out, he finds the support "tremendous.”

“People are great. They want to know how you’re doing, and I wish I could give them a date,” he said. “But I can’t.”

Everyone just assumes he’ll be playing by the time of the home rematch with the Steelers on Dec. 31. That will be nine days from the one-year anniversary of the injury at the same site against the same team.

But with Chad Johnson stage-whispering about Opening Day and shooting three-pointers, and running in the pool and ... what about Sept. 24 in Pittsburgh?

“I don’t know,” he said. “I don’t know. All I can say is I sure hope I get to play them twice this year.”

Link

 

[ATC1]

FWIW-my Dr. is a trainer for a local high school that is considered a football factory of sorts and I asked him about Palmer. I know it's not the NFL or college but it's still a Dr's insight. His response was interesting. He based it what he has first hand knowledge of and what he's seen and studied.

He said Palmer will cjallenged to overcome 2 things regarding the injury:

1. Physical issues.

2. Mental issues.

He said that overcoming the injury in order to paly is very difficult due the level of the injury. He said he will likely recover enough to get back on the field if he's lucky but that he will then have to overcome the mental side of it.

The mental part is an aspect many athletes do not recover from. They lose confidence in their knees. They start to think about the things that could go wrong again:

>Defender hits the knee.

>Foot gets caught in the turf.

>Player inadvertantly rolls up from behind.

Because they think about these things they miss a play here and there. Maybe they overthrow a WR or TE or make an icompletion for 3rd down causing a punt. His point is that they rarely come back the same as they were before the injury. Only about 10% make it back to pre-injury form.

Palmer may do ok but he's looking at odds that are against him. As a Bengals fan I hope he returns as good as new.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

excelent. Saved me the trouble of posting this. Same thing applies to Culpepper, but I think Palmer is more prepared. Culpepper is much more dificult though because he uses his mobility more. 10% is a bit low I think, way too low.

 

[Baracuda]

FWIW-my Dr. is a trainer for a local high school that is considered a football factory of sorts and I asked him about Palmer. I know it's not the NFL or college but it's still a Dr's insight. His response was interesting. He based it what he has first hand knowledge of and what he's seen and studied.He said Palmer will cjallenged to overcome 2 things regarding the injury:1. Physical issues.2. Mental issues.He said that overcoming the injury in order to paly is very difficult due the level of the injury. He said he will likely recover enough to get back on the field if he's lucky but that he will then have to overcome the mental side of it.The mental part is an aspect many athletes do not recover from. They lose confidence in their knees. They start to think about the things that could go wrong again:>Defender hits the knee.>Foot gets caught in the turf.>Player inadvertantly rolls up from behind.Because they think about these things they miss a play here and there. Maybe they overthrow a WR or TE or make an icompletion for 3rd down causing a punt. His point is that they rarely come back the same as they were before the injury. Only about 10% make it back to pre-injury form.Palmer may do ok but he's looking at odds that are against him. As a Bengals fan I hope he returns as good as new.

Interesting perspective. And I appreciate the research.But wait a sec, so Palmer's going to make it back physically, but NEVER recovery mentally unless he's part of the lucky 10% who can do this? That just doesn't make sense to me. Sure, maybe playing tentative could set him back a season or two, but eventually he would get over it, especially after he's hit a few times and is okay. And I doubt there's any data to support the claim that a QB with a knee injury has only a 10% chance of returning to pre-injury form. There are plenty of NFL players who tear there ACLs and come back to full strength after 2 years (Jamal Lewis, Willis McGahee, Edge James, etc). Why would the QB position be so different than RB or WR with respect to mental concerns about possibly getting hurt again? I would think RB would be way worse actually. I'm not saying that your doctor/trainer is wrong, just that he probably meant it would take a year or two to recovery, rather than never. Or that he was shooting from the hip speaking in general terms rather than it being dogma.I'm in med school currently. I'm almost through year 1 with anatomy, physiology and physical diagnoses finals next week! (So I can only posts during rare study breaks). Anyway, I'll do some digging and let you know what I uncover related to this topic.

 

[Family Matters]

FWIW-my Dr. is a trainer for a local high school that is considered a football factory of sorts and I asked him about Palmer. I know it's not the NFL or college but it's still a Dr's insight. His response was interesting. He based it what he has first hand knowledge of and what he's seen and studied.

He said Palmer will be challenged to overcome 2 things regarding the injury:

1. Physical issues.

2. Mental issues.

He said that overcoming the injury in order to play is very difficult due the level of the injury. He said he will likely recover enough to get back on the field if he's lucky but that he will then have to overcome the mental side of it.

The mental part is an aspect many athletes do not recover from. They lose confidence in their knees. They start to think about the things that could go wrong again:

>Defender hits the knee.

>Foot gets caught in the turf.

>Player inadvertantly rolls up from behind.

Because they think about these things they miss a play here and there. Maybe they overthrow a WR or TE or make an icompletion for 3rd down causing a punt. His point is that they rarely come back the same as they were before the injury. Only about 10% make it back to pre-injury form.

Palmer may do ok but he's looking at odds that are against him. As a Bengals fan I hope he returns as good as new.

Interesting perspective. And I appreciate the research.But wait a sec, so Palmer's going to make it back physically, but NEVER recovery mentally unless he's part of the lucky 10% who can do this? That just doesn't make sense to me. Sure, maybe playing tentative could set him back a season or two, but eventually he would get over it, especially after he's hit a few times and is okay.

And I doubt there's any data to support the claim that a QB with a knee injury has only a 10% chance of returning to pre-injury form. There are plenty of NFL players who tear there ACLs and come back to full strength after 2 years (Jamal Lewis, Willis McGahee, Edge James, etc). Why would the QB position be so different than RB or WR with respect to mental concerns about possibly getting hurt again? I would think RB would be way worse actually.

I'm not saying that your doctor/trainer is wrong, just that he probably meant it would take a year or two to recovery, rather than never. Or that he was shooting from the hip speaking in general terms rather than it being dogma.

I'm in med school currently. I'm almost through year 1 with anatomy, physiology and physical diagnoses finals next week! (So I can only posts during rare study breaks). Anyway, I'll do some digging and let you know what I uncover related to this topic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's consider this:1. 10% has to be arbitrary. There are no actual stats I know of.

2. Returning and returning to pre-injury form are 2 different things. The odds that he is as good as before are what's against him. But that doesn't mean he won't overcome those odds. But they are just stacked against him.

3. 10% includes full recovery, not just the physical or mental aspect. Referring to the 2 aspects just reiterates that it's more than just phyisical.

4. Lastly, most of the injured players that returned that know of are not as good as before. They returned but no all of them are as good.

5. Palmer had the dreaded "trifecta" injury. Many of the others to and I know that returned did not have the "trifecta". The odds he returns from that are 10%, not just an ACL or MCL.

 

[QuizGuy66]

Edge James looks pretty good coming off his knee issues, not much fear there if you ask me.

-QG

 

[Baracuda]

Let's consider this:1. 10% has to be arbitrary. There are no actual stats I know of.2. Returning and returning to pre-injury form are 2 different things. The odds that he is as good as before are what's against him. But that doesn't mean he won't overcome those odds. But they are just stacked against him.3. 10% includes full recovery, not just the physical or mental aspect. Referring to the 2 aspects just reiterates that it's more than just phyisical.4. Lastly, most of the injured players that returned that know of are not as good as before. They returned but no all of them are as good.5. Palmer had the dreaded "trifecta" injury. Many of the others to and I know that returned did not have the "trifecta". The odds he returns from that are 10%, not just an ACL or MCL.

1. Right, that was exactly my point.2 & 3 & 4 (which are the same point stated differently 3 times). Show me data that says the odds are stacked against him. If anything, more guys return after a couple of years and play well after ACL tears. I can think of many examples where there is no perceived drop off after an ACL injury (Lewis, McGahee, James to name a few). Maybe these players don't actually return to their pre-injury form, but it is near impossible to detect, in my opinion.5. There is no such thing as the dreaded trifecta injury. In fact, it is common to tear the MCL when you tear the ACL. And a tearing of the medial meniscus can also occur with these injuries also. It has to do with the location of the anatomy and the direction of the blow (usually from the lateral side). The MCL and medial meniscus don't usually require surgery but probably makes sense when you're going in to repair the ACL anyway. Here's an excerpt from Jonathan Cluett, M.D., who is an orthopedic surgery fellow in sports medicince and arthroscopy in California:"Over 90% of patients are able to resume their previous level of activity after ACL reconstruction. A small percentage of patients will be limited by persistent pain or instability; however, changes in activity level following ACL reconstruction surgery are often due to choice rather than limitations of the knee joint."

 

[Family Matters]

Let's consider this:

1. 10% has to be arbitrary. There are no actual stats I know of.

2. Returning and returning to pre-injury form are 2 different things. The odds that he is as good as before are what's against him. But that doesn't mean he won't overcome those odds. But they are just stacked against him.

3. 10% includes full recovery, not just the physical or mental aspect. Referring to the 2 aspects just reiterates that it's more than just phyisical.

4. Lastly, most of the injured players that returned that know of are not as good as before. They returned but no all of them are as good.

5. Palmer had the dreaded "trifecta" injury. Many of the others to and I know that returned did not have the "trifecta". The odds he returns from that are 10%, not just an ACL or MCL.

1. Right, that was exactly my point.2 & 3 & 4 (which are the same point stated differently 3 times). Show me data that says the odds are stacked against him. If anything, more guys return after a couple of years and play well after ACL tears. I can think of many examples where there is no perceived drop off after an ACL injury (Lewis, McGahee, James to name a few). Maybe these players don't actually return to their pre-injury form, but it is near impossible to detect, in my opinion.

5. There is no such thing as the dreaded trifecta injury. In fact, it is common to tear the MCL when you tear the ACL. And a tearing of the medial meniscus can also occur with these injuries also. It has to do with the location of the anatomy and the direction of the blow (usually from the lateral side). The MCL and medial meniscus don't usually require surgery but probably makes sense when you're going in to repair the ACL anyway.

Here's an excerpt from Jonathan Cluett, M.D., who is an orthopedic surgery fellow in sports medicince and arthroscopy in California:

"Over 90% of patients are able to resume their previous level of activity after ACL reconstruction. A small percentage of patients will be limited by persistent pain or instability; however, changes in activity level following ACL reconstruction surgery are often due to choice rather than limitations of the knee joint."

I don't have the knowledge to debate this only what I was told. But there is something very telling in the quote you provided:

. A small percentage of patients will be limited by persistent pain or instability; however, changes in activity level following ACL reconstruction surgery are often due to choice rather than limitations of the knee joint."

Could this an example of the mental aspects of the recovery? And are the majority of patients NFL player or is that a small percentage?There have been quite a few players that have not returned or are not as good. I'm not going to worry about listing them because it doesn't mean Palmer will recover or not. That's specific to Palmer and not what happened to the others.

But if your point is that most return to 100% pre-injury form then I think you are in the minority when it comes to football. If it weren't a big deal or problematic then teams wouldn't be so concerned about players ability to recover. There's strong evidence to show that it's not easy to come back 100%. The risks are there and they are real.

Lastly, it seems you're suggesting that it's just as easy to recover to 100% from 1 ACL injury as it is from 3 injuries such as Palmers? That's what you're saying I think. I will say that there are doctors that publicly disagree with that statement. Maybe you're not saying that but it sounds that way.

So you might be right that Palmer will return 100%. I'm not saying he won't. What I'm saying is that the odds are against that happening. It's not my opinion but other doctors. If you're saying they're wrong then I hope you're right. I want my biy to make it back and kick some Steeler but all the way to the Super Bowl!

 

[Baracuda]

First let me reiterate that I appreciate original research and am glad that you posted the comments from you doctor/trainer. It's always good to get additional insights. But his statements are inconsistent with the medical literature and orthopedic physicians that have taught us. So I can't let that pass without chiming in.

I never said it was easy to recover from an ACL or that Palmer will return 100%. What I did say was that the odds are not necessary as stacked against him as it might seem. You keep saying that there is strong evidence to show that it's not easy to come back 100%. I'd like to see that evidence because most of the anecdotal cases that I can think of, the NFL players return and play at a level that is similar to their pre-injury form. Show me the data to support this claim and I will beleive you. I'm not trying to be difficult, but if you're going to make such a strong statement, I think you need data to support it. There may be clinical studies to support whether more athletes make a full recovery than not. I will do a medline search when I have time today.

Most orthopedists that have lectured to us and the anatomy textbooks that I have read suggest that recovery is high with ACL injuries. I appreciate that you are trying to delineate between mental and physical aspects of healing, but with physical recovery should come mental recovery eventunally. Palmer will need some time, but if he's healthy he should come to appreciate that his body can handle being hit. It won't happen overnight, but it should happen.

Of course, every patient is individual and obviously I haven't examined Palmer's knee. We already know that his surgeon expects him to make a full recovery despite the extent of the damage. So it seems to me that it really depends on Palmer's work ethic and desire to return. Everything that we've read suggests he will make a full recovery. What more could you ask for? Will he be the same QB as before? This seems unlikely that this will occur in 2006, given when he got hurt. But in my opinion, I don't think we'll be able to tell the difference during 2007 season. Hence, Palmer's value in a dynasty league should not take too much of a hit.

 

[Baracuda]

Curiosity got the better of me (and I should know the answer to this anyway), so I conducted a quick search of our medical library and pulled a few articles. After revieiwing them, it appears that 40-90% of patients who have ACL reconstruction are able to return to their preinjury sports activity level.

I also found an interesting Q&A discussion on this website. I'm sure a lot of it is old news, but in it Palmer discusses the mental aspects of his injury. He noted that he's working hard on getting better physically so that by the time he plays he is mentally where he needs to be. Certainly topical given our discussion.

http://knee-surgery-info.com/knee_surgery/...urgery-updates/

Carson Palmer Discusses his Knee Surgery Rehab

March 23, 2006 @ 10:32 am · Filed under Knee Surgery Updates

Carson Palmer discusses his Knee Surgery Rehab

It was Palmer’s first public interview since Jan. 9, the day after he suffered torn ligaments (ACL and MCL) in his left knee in a 31-17 playoff loss to Pittsburgh. Palmer said he’s on schedule toward his goal of starting the 2006 regular-season opener.

Question: How’s the knee?

Answer: It feels great. I’ve been rehabbing now for almost 11 weeks and everything’s going as scheduled, as planned, and I’m just getting anxious and excited to be able to do more and more as the process moves along.

Q. There was a report you were bowling in Las Vegas. Is that true?

A. I went out to dinner with Jon Kitna last Monday night and he said, ‘I heard something on the radio about you bowling in Las Vegas.’ I don’t know where some of these things come from. I’m surprised to hear ‘em, too. I was in Las Vegas, but I definitely wasn’t at a bowling tournament. I was at the craps table. Maybe it was the bowling motion of rolling the dice.

Q. Take us through a typical day of rehab. What do you do?

A. A lot. I’m starting to get to the point where I can push around a little bit of weight. I’m working on balance. I’m working on a number of things. A number of different small exercises just to get the muscle working again and the muscles around the knee. Those have atrophied a lot from the surgery like any surgery, and just getting those muscles moving again, and firing. I do different things every day. New things. Sometimes I go back to old things. I can’t really go through a step by step process, but you get in at 10 in the morning and leave at 2-3 o’clock, get a weight workout, work on your knee. The big thing right now is just getting the strength back in the leg.

Q. Do you have good days and bad days?

A. You hear a lot of things. I’ve had a bunch of guys call me that have had knee surgeries, and I hear that a lot. To be honest — knock on wood — I haven’t had any days that have set me back or really discouraging days. I come in with a glass-half-full mentality and do what I can do and move on from there. Things haven’t been frustrating for me. I’ve just been excited to do what I can do every day.

Q. Can you give us an idea of what your exercises are?

A. A lot of leg press, flexibility. You’ve got to try to fire your quad a lot, get the quad strength back, hamstring curls, leg extensions … just a number of things. It’s a process going from building muscle back up in your leg. As the muscle atrophies, your leg needs to get that stimulating and get that firing. From there, just making the rest of the leg strong. On a typical day, I do 40 different exercises. It ranges from day to day. It’s been improving day to day, and getting better, and that’s all I can ask for.

Q. Compared to football, how difficult is it rehabbing?

A. It’s really not that hard. You hear a lot. And I feel like I keep getting a lot of sympathy. But it’s knee surgery. I talked to (Bengals doctor) Dr. (Angelo) Colosimo, who does 11 knee surgeries a day, and that’s a pretty slow day. So it’s not like I’ve got cancer or I’ve lost a limb. It’s just knee surgery. It’s not that bad. It’s not that hard. It’s just something I’m going through right now. I’m going to get better, and I’m going to get back. I’m fortunate. I’m working with a great group of people, just trying to get back and get healthy.

Q. There were several reports about the surgery. How difficult was it?

A. That whole thing got blown way out of proportion like a lot of things do in sports. There is so much media out there that rumors get started. All I know is that I woke up from the surgery and the doctor was in there, Billy Brooks (Bengals assistant trainer) was in there. They both said everything went great; the surgery was a success and they expect a full recovery. The next thing I know I heard that somebody’s saying it’s career-ending. I’m not worried about that. That’s something that got misquoted and blown out of context. I’m expecting a full recovery and I’m working as hard as I can everyday, and that’s all I can do right now.

Q. What’s the time frame of when you’ll be back? Marvin says you’re the opening day quarterback.

A. No question. That’s what I’m expecting. That’s why I’m in here working hard and trying to get right. When it comes to that, I’m not very realistic. I expect to be starting Game 1. I expect to be playing in the preseason. This is my first knee surgery, first knee injury. I understand that sometimes there’s complications, and sometimes things get set back a week or two. I’m not worried about that. All I’m worried about is doing what I can in here everyday, and getting ready for our opener.

Q. I guess there’s no way to really know when you’ll be back?

A. If I had a crystal ball and I could find out exactly the day I’m 100 percent and I’m cleared to play, then we wouldn’t be going through this backup quarterback thing we’re trying to figure out right now. But there is no crystal ball. There is no way of saying this is the exact date when he can step on the field and play again. But I’m preparing, getting ready and expecting to play on opening day.

Q. Where did you rehab in So Cal?

A. A place called S.M.I., Sports Medicine Institute in Anaheim, Calf.

Q. Have you spoken to Kimo von Oelhoffen (the Steelers defensive end who caused the injury)?

A. No, I haven’t.

Q. Does it both you that he hasn’t called?

A. No, not at all. Football is a very physical game. Things happen. I don’t hold a grudge at all. I don’t think he meant to do it, whether he did or not, I don’t care. It’s part of the game. These things happen. It’s a freak accident. But whether I talk to him or not, I don’t hold a grudge at all.

Q. Have you watched the tape, and what goes through your mind?

A. It’s part of the game. I just remember the feeling of getting in the car after I got out of the shower and got the MRI done, and pulling away from the stadium, laying down in the back seat, looking back at the stadium lights. That’s the only thing that really goes through my head is that feeling, pulling away from the game, our first playoff game here. That was kind of my last memories of that game. It wasn’t that play at all. I didn’t revert back to that play. I just remember that feeling of not being there, and not being able to finish the game.



Q. How are you handling the mental part of the injury?

A. I’ve kind of always felt, when I play, I’m not really worried about what’s going on around me. Hopefully I can have that feeling back when I play again. That’s why I’m doing what I’m doing now, so I can get all the problems with my knee out of my head by the time I step on the field, with all the hard work and the rehab and the strengthening, and all the things I’m doing. By the time I step on the field 100 percent, I don’t want to be worrying about: Is my knee strong enough? Is my knee ready for this? I want to be 100 percent and be ready to play like I was on the first play of that Pittsburgh game.

Q. With your work ethic, it seems like you’re gung-ho. Do you ever worry about pushing too hard. Where do you draw the line?

A. I’ve got to trust the people I’m working with and I do 100 percent. This is the first time I’ve gone through this, so I don’t know exactly how to handle it, the exact steps to take. That’s why you’ve got a physical therapist and people that have been things for a long time that I’m working with, who I trust. I’m going to follow what they say and do what they tell me I can do.

Q. How many people do you work with during rehab?

A. Just basically, maybe four. (Bengals strength and conditioning coaches) Chip (Morton) and Ray (Oliver) in the weight room, then Bob Mangine and Billy Brooks down here doing physical therapy.

Q. How long will you be in Cincinnati?

A. I’m here until the opener.

Q. As you look back on your injury, the way the game started (with a 66-yard pass to Chris Henry), do you think the Bengals could’ve won if you had played the whole game?

A. I don’t know about that. Like I said before, you can’t have a crystal ball. There’s no magic to it. We had a chance to win. Turns out we didn’t make enough plays. We didn’t stop them enough. We didn’t put up enough points. I’d like to think that every time I step on the field, I have a chance to win. There’s really no way to look back and say, ‘This is what would’ve happened if I hadn’t gotten hurt.’ “

Q. Are you involved in the process of finding a backup quarterback?

A. Not really. It’s not my expertise handling contracts. That’s why we have the people working upstairs in this organization. They’ve done a phenomenal job of building this team. They will continue to do so. If Marvin (Lewis) ever has questions, I’m comfortable answering them and he’s comfortable asking me. They have a job to do upstairs and they do a great job of it. They’re going to figure out the best fit for this team.

Q. Have long have you been back in Cincinnati?

A. Two weeks now.

Q. What is your schedule? Is it laid out about where you’re supposed to be at in your rehab?

A. Like we talked about earlier, there’s no way to say when I can start doing 7 on 7, when I can start running, when I can start doing different things, doing drop-backs, throwing. When this first happened, I was in the locker room and I asked the doctor: ‘What’s the deal. I’m having surgery?’ He said, ‘Yes, you’re having surgery.’ I asked, ‘Well, what’s the recovery time?’ He said, ‘Well, 8 to 12 months.’ That’s the typical knee surgery recovery time, and everybody’s different. I’m different from the next guy and that’s why you just need to sit back and let the healing process take care of itself and do everything you can do to rehab it the correct way.

Q. Is being ready for May minicamp being too optimistic?

A. I would love to. I hope. I’ll keep my fingers crossed. But I don’t think I’ll be ready to go in May. I think I need to wait and make sure it’s 100 percent before I start doing all the on-field activities.

Q. Can you throw standing still?

A. Yeah, I probably could.

Q. Have you thrown since the injury?

A. No.

 

[Vicktimized]

If anything, more guys return after a couple of years and play well after ACL tears. I can think of many examples where there is no perceived drop off after an ACL injury (Lewis, McGahee, James to name a few). Maybe these players don't actually return to their pre-injury form, but it is near impossible to detect, in my opinion.

I disagree a lot with that statement. James was THE best RB in football when he tore his ACL. McGahee was the best player in college football and slated to be a top 3 pick in his draft. Lewis might be the only guy I'd tend to agree with there, but when I look at James or McGahee, in my opinion, both are good to very good, but not great, and that's down from where they were.

 

[toxicbees]

Don't kid yourself no one is the same after an ACL tear. Surgically replaced ligaments just aren't as good as the ones that you were born with. There is no such thing as a 100% physical recovery. The best doctors in the world might get your knee back to 90% of what it was, but it will never be 100%. That's where the mental aspect comes in. You know your knee is your achillies and you will continue to favor it, consciously and subconsciously. There's also the dreaded second ACL tear on the same knee. The second one is almost impossible to come back from.

 

[Baracuda]

Don't kid yourself no one is the same after an ACL tear.  Surgically replaced ligaments just aren't as good as the ones that you were born with.  There is no such thing as a 100% physical recovery.  The best doctors in the world might get your knee back to 90% of what it was, but it will never be 100%.  That's where the mental aspect comes in.  You know your knee is your achillies and you will continue to favor it, consciously and subconsciously.  There's also the dreaded second ACL tear on the same knee.  The second one is almost impossible to come back from.

So what are you basing this on? Your gut feeling? I prefer to use the scientific evidence instead. Also, I'm pretty sure there are RBs who have come back from 2 ACL tears so that last sentence seems questionable.

 

[Baracuda]

If anything, more guys return after a couple of years and play well after ACL tears.  I can think of many examples where there is no perceived drop off after an ACL injury (Lewis, McGahee, James to name a few).  Maybe these players don't actually return to their pre-injury form, but it is near impossible to detect, in my opinion.

I disagree a lot with that statement. James was THE best RB in football when he tore his ACL. McGahee was the best player in college football and slated to be a top 3 pick in his draft. Lewis might be the only guy I'd tend to agree with there, but when I look at James or McGahee, in my opinion, both are good to very good, but not great, and that's down from where they were.

McGahee played pretty darn well his 2nd season after the ACL tear. Edge James also looks pretty solid. I don't see how you could say that the ACL was slowing them down as opposed to some other factors. But either way, these players certainly came back to play at a very high level. But this thread is about Palmer. I think you could make the argument that QBs have an easier return that RBs from an ACL tear.