Are police officers generally held accountable for misconduct? (1 Viewer)

[Zow]

Most police officers are hard working, honest, and are willing to put their lives at risk to protect the public. Some of them are bad. Some of them are racist, and institutionalized racism does exist in many places. On the whole, though, I think most cops are fine people, so when these situations arise I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt until I learn otherwise.

All of which is fine, but doesn't answer the question.

Sounds like his answer is yes. However, in typically Tim fashion, he decides to make some random point to muddy the waters.

It's not a random point; it's central because I reject the premise behind the question. There's no set rule for whether or not police get away with abusive behavior, because it's not a common enough occurrence for any pattern to develop.

Tim, I am literally teaching a college class focused solely on patterns and forces behind police deviance.

 

[northern exposure]

At a different school I know of a football coach that didnt want a certain kid on the team because the kid partied and was a trouble maker. He knew his buddy had him in class. He told his buddy to be on the lookout for the kid and find a reason to suspend him so that he ends up intelligible for football.

Is this anything like ineligible for football? Or did you mean he'd end up capable of being understood for football. And you're a teacher?

 

[St. Louis Bob]

My uncle that was a cop, now retired, told me a long time ago how he was doing an eviction and was moving a couch out to the curb. Next thing he knows there are Feds there grilling him about taking money that was in the couch. He told them he didn't know what they were talking about and they cuffed him for stealing. He insisted he didn't know what money they (that was planted as a sting) were talking about. Seems the Feds hid the money a little too good and it was in the seem of the couch. I don't know if operations like this are done any more. FWIW, my uncle is as honest and a good man as you'll ever meet. He's one of my hero's in life. He also told me he rarely wrote anybody a ticket unless they were just #######s.

My younger cousin, my uncle's kid, is now a cop, in the same State. He's a really good kid but the State insists on him writing tickets. He has quota's. He told me that he is ordered to arrest or fine as many people as possible. Neat times.

I have friends that are cops. Some are fine upstanding individuals. A couple that have been sucked in by the power. I have one friend that quit after 12 years because of the bull#### injustice he saw. I have a bunch of personal stories about cops that no way I'm putting in writing. So to answer your question, GB, NO ####### WAY are they held accountable. It's ####### disgusting.

 

[RCon]

Most police officers are hard working, honest, and are willing to put their lives at risk to protect the public. Some of them are bad. Some of them are racist, and institutionalized racism does exist in many places. On the whole, though, I think most cops are fine people, so when these situations arise I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt until I learn otherwise.

All of which is fine, but doesn't answer the question.

Sounds like his answer is yes. However, in typically Tim fashion, he decides to make some random point to muddy the waters.

It's not a random point; it's central because I reject the premise behind the question. There's no set rule for whether or not police get away with abusive behavior, because it's not a common enough occurrence for any pattern to develop.

Just curious: how many data points are required to determine that a pattern is statistically significant?

What does racism or institutionalized racism have to do with the original question?

I can't answer your first question except to say that it all depends.Your second question has an obvious answer: over the years, much of the abuse and misconduct that police are charged with are related to issues of race.

The original question wasn't "Why do police act inappropriately", it was "When police act inappropriately/illegally, are they typically punished for it or do they too often get away with it?"

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I don't know if anyone wants to try to use this thread to discuss alleged police misconduct across the country but I thought I would give it a shot.

I don't think it really belongs in the NYPD assassinated cops thread because you know what the killer in that case was not of a like mindset to the typical protestor. Maybe Brinsley identified with some of the very extremist types out there or had similar beliefs, maybe he got riled up in his crazy mind because of what he has heard or seen of some of the rhetoric or maybe from what he's read on the internet and social media, but that has nothing to do with what most protestors are talking about.

In my mind it's a wide variety of incidents between Martin, Brown and Garner, and the BB gun incident, but that's up to debate and I'm sure some disagree. Somehow I often see them connected in discussion, but again I think they are disparate incidents.

And the nature of the rhetoric which is filtering through the airwaves and internet might be at issue, however I definitely think police misconduct issues have nothing to do with what happened in NYC to Liu and Ramos.

 

[Glass Joe]

Seems relevant.

http://t.co/4GUrBsO0Aw

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Seems relevant.

http://t.co/4GUrBsO0Aw

Finally they stopped, either convinced by our pleas for mercy or simply tired of whaling on us. As they walked back to their car, Matt staggered to his feet, fishing his phone from his pocket while trying to make out the license plate of the vehicle the trio was getting into. As Matt dialed 911 in shock, he was just grasping the new reality: We've just been assaulted by some plainclothes cops, and they're leaving.

The line rang, and in a heartbeat the taller man sprinted at Matt. You can hear him scream on the recorded 911 call, "Who the #### are you calling?" just before he hit Matt hard enough to knock him several feet backward and into the wall. They were on Matt again in seconds—Greg rushed to pull them off once more, but they violently slammed the back of Greg's head to the pavement. He lost consciousness.

Greg woke to the bright lights of a police cruiser rolling into the parking lot. Finally, he thought, his face still pressed into the cold pavement by his assailant, this is over. They're going to be arrested, everything will be fine.

In the end, we each got about $45,000. That's $45,000 after three-plus years of fear and suffering, $45,000 for injuries both physical and mental inflicted upon us by city servants. The uniformed cops, meanwhile, were never charged with anything. As far as we know, they're still cops. And we never found out the identity of our attackers; to this day the city and the police department have never admitted that they're cops.

It is relevant, extremely.

Apparently this happened in Chicago.

 

[Jack White]

Will Grigg breaks it down better than anyone I know: here, here and here, just for starters.

 

[urbanhack]

http://www.alan.com/2014/12/04/grand-jury-clears-two-white-texas-cops-who-brutally-beat-a-black-woman-over-an-unpaid-traffic-ticket/

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

We had a case like that Chicago situation here in New Orleans. Here in NO we have every situation of police abuse that has been reported in the press nationally. We have had a Martin case, a Brown case and a Garner case. And then some. We have had the Danziger 5 and we have had the Henry Glover case. We have things happen here that (sorry) make these other reports nationally pale in comparison. Still no one really cares nationally. Our former Mayor, Marc Morial, is now the head of the National Urban League. You think anyone wants to look at the NOPD civil rights record under this esteemed gentleman? Naahhhh...

We also have a long history of police corruption that the US Attorney here called the "aorta" of corruption" in New Orleans. Police corruption is not just police corruption, it's often tied to political corruption, and often someone is making money somewhere somehow as a result.

About the Vice story - if you look up "Beachcorner Bar" and "New Orleans" and police you will see there was a brawl that involved cops that were drinking off duty (IIRC) at a local hangout. They beat some people up in what sounds like a very similar fashion. There was a lawsuit, federal and city investigations, other agencies like the RTA (bus/ metro transportation), and the feds got involved. We have seen it all here.

 

[Jack White]

http://www.alan.com/2014/12/04/grand-jury-clears-two-white-texas-cops-who-brutally-beat-a-black-woman-over-an-unpaid-traffic-ticket/

Ya gotta love that "impartial" grand jury system!

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The feds have also taken over our police department on a monitoring basis.

We have an Inspector General, we have a Police Monitor, and our criminal Sheriff is also under federal monitoring. We have seen police convicted in federal court for civil rights violations, for murder, for hiding evidence and cover up. These are white and black cops by the way.

We continue to have civil rights problems. The city has judgements against it for civil rights violations which like other judgements it simply does not pay.

We have two police unions - one is black, one is white. That's right our police union is voluntarily segregated. Neither seem at all interested in changing that.

Not only that, police are quitting or just not doing their job. We have always had rampant crime here but we are down to around maybe 900 active street cops. We have a serious crisis here, one caused by the cops due to past civil rights violations and corruption, and another because we cannot maintain a police presence in the most important and dangerous parts of the city. Some of our best and brightest have quit and won't sign up as recruits because of all the negative publicity and all the oversight, not to mention the crappy pay.

 

[SacramentoBob]

http://www.alan.com/2014/12/04/grand-jury-clears-two-white-texas-cops-who-brutally-beat-a-black-woman-over-an-unpaid-traffic-ticket/

In Jasper, TX? No way!

 

[jonessed]

No.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

This is a tough question to tease out, because it's tough to define "misconduct." I'd be hard pressed to offer a percentage for how often officers are appropriately punished for clearly violating established law. Because of the code of silence, it obviously happens, but I'm not comfortable saying whether or not it's the norm.

What I will say, based on experience doing civil rights cases and the like, is that I think there are a lot of reasons why anything other than a complete slam dunk is very hard to prosecute against a police officer. And that's in a variety of contexts. Criminal prosecutions, civil litigation, and administrative proceedings.

It's useless to belabor the point on criminal charges. We've made it on the board a lot. Prosecutors generally have a conflict of interest in going after cops who they otherwise rely on. Not just because they rely on a given suspect as a witness in other cases, but because they rely on that suspect's peers. Administrative proceedings within departments present the same problems. And because there are a variety of softer punishments available, there is a real incentive to give what amounts to a slap on the wrist.

In civil litigation, qualified immunity is a huge barrier to individual liability and supervisor and municipal liability is incredibly difficult to prove. In the worst cases, the Justice Department will get involved and the force might have to operate under a consent order supervised by the District Court, but the Feds' appetite for that really depends on administration.

Finally, there's the fact that a lot of what I consider "misconduct" isn't illegal. The use of civil asset forfeiture in this country is a national disgrace. But it's not illegal unless we overturn a host of precedents that allow it for probable cause instead of a more demanding standard.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

This is a tough question to tease out, because it's tough to define "misconduct." I'd be hard pressed to offer a percentage for how often officers are appropriately punished for clearly violating established law. Because of the code of silence, it obviously happens, but I'm not comfortable saying whether or not it's the norm.

What I will say, based on experience doing civil rights cases and the like, is that I think there are a lot of reasons why anything other than a complete slam dunk is very hard to prosecute against a police officer. And that's in a variety of contexts. Criminal prosecutions, civil litigation, and administrative proceedings.

It's useless to belabor the point on criminal charges. We've made it on the board a lot. Prosecutors generally have a conflict of interest in going after cops who they otherwise rely on. Not just because they rely on a given suspect as a witness in other cases, but because they rely on that suspect's peers. Administrative proceedings within departments present the same problems. And because there are a variety of softer punishments available, there is a real incentive to give what amounts to a slap on the wrist.

In civil litigation, qualified immunity is a huge barrier to individual liability and supervisor and municipal liability is incredibly difficult to prove. In the worst cases, the Justice Department will get involved and the force might have to operate under a consent order supervised by the District Court, but the Feds' appetite for that really depends on administration.

Finally, there's the fact that a lot of what I consider "misconduct" isn't illegal. The use of civil asset forfeiture in this country is a national disgrace. But it's not illegal unless we overturn a host of precedents that allow it for probable cause instead of a more demanding standard.

I have a question - if people feel that there was misconduct in the Brown and Garner situations why can't the US Attorney prosecute the cops for civil rights violations and even murder?

That has definitely happened here in NO and they have gotten convictions.

 

[Fennis]

no. from small things to driving like #######s to big things like police brutality doesnt matter. The police are clearly above the law and above most rules

 

[Fennis]

We have two police unions - one is black, one is white. That's right our police union is voluntarily segregated. Neither seem at all interested in changing that.

wow, never heard of that. horrible. got a link about that?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

We have two police unions - one is black, one is white. That's right our police union is voluntarily segregated. Neither seem at all interested in changing that.

wow, never heard of that. horrible. got a link about that?

We have the Black Organization of Police (BOP):

http://www.neworleansbusinesslist.com/business/2671490.htm

And we have the Police Association of New Orleans.

http://pano1544.com/

By the 1970s enough black officers had been hired that the Black Organization of Police in New Orleans was formed to begin addressing the aggressive policing tactics and to make sure black officers were treated fairly. “There was little the organization could do,” said Moore. “If officers in the organization were perceived as being radical, their career would stall.”

http://sites.utexas.edu/shelflife/2010/03/01/black-rage-in-new-orleans-police-brutality-spawns-activism/

I'm not saying these two organizations are literally segregated according to rule or as a membership requirement, but that's pretty much the way it breaks down as a practical matter. PANO is white, BOP is black.

 

[Fennis]

We have two police unions - one is black, one is white. That's right our police union is voluntarily segregated. Neither seem at all interested in changing that.

wow, never heard of that. horrible. got a link about that?

We have the Black Organization of Police (BOP):

http://www.neworleansbusinesslist.com/business/2671490.htm

And we have the Police Association of New Orleans.

http://pano1544.com/

By the 1970s enough black officers had been hired that the Black Organization of Police in New Orleans was formed to begin addressing the aggressive policing tactics and to make sure black officers were treated fairly. “There was little the organization could do,” said Moore. “If officers in the organization were perceived as being radical, their career would stall.”

http://sites.utexas.edu/shelflife/2010/03/01/black-rage-in-new-orleans-police-brutality-spawns-activism/

I'm not saying these two organizations are literally segregated according to rule or as a membership requirement, but that's pretty much the way it breaks down as a practical matter. PANO is white, BOP is black.

Thanks. Found an article about a similar situation in St. Louis: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/01/1348628/-St-Louis-has-two-police-associations-one-for-white-officers-and-one-for-black-officers#

Unlike a lot of people, things like black beauty pageants or Latin Grammys don't bother me, but this just seems wrong.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

We have two police unions - one is black, one is white. That's right our police union is voluntarily segregated. Neither seem at all interested in changing that.

wow, never heard of that. horrible. got a link about that?

We have the Black Organization of Police (BOP):

http://www.neworleansbusinesslist.com/business/2671490.htm

And we have the Police Association of New Orleans.

http://pano1544.com/

By the 1970s enough black officers had been hired that the Black Organization of Police in New Orleans was formed to begin addressing the aggressive policing tactics and to make sure black officers were treated fairly. “There was little the organization could do,” said Moore. “If officers in the organization were perceived as being radical, their career would stall.”

http://sites.utexas.edu/shelflife/2010/03/01/black-rage-in-new-orleans-police-brutality-spawns-activism/

I'm not saying these two organizations are literally segregated according to rule or as a membership requirement, but that's pretty much the way it breaks down as a practical matter. PANO is white, BOP is black.

Thanks. Found an article about a similar situation in St. Louis: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/01/1348628/-St-Louis-has-two-police-associations-one-for-white-officers-and-one-for-black-officers#

Unlike a lot of people, things like black beauty pageants or Latin Grammys don't bother me, but this just seems wrong.

It is wrong. I don't know if it's morally "wrong" I guess people can join what they like with who they like, but I agree in the sense it's a bad idea, hurts things and makes zero sense.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

This is a tough question to tease out, because it's tough to define "misconduct." I'd be hard pressed to offer a percentage for how often officers are appropriately punished for clearly violating established law. Because of the code of silence, it obviously happens, but I'm not comfortable saying whether or not it's the norm.

What I will say, based on experience doing civil rights cases and the like, is that I think there are a lot of reasons why anything other than a complete slam dunk is very hard to prosecute against a police officer. And that's in a variety of contexts. Criminal prosecutions, civil litigation, and administrative proceedings.

It's useless to belabor the point on criminal charges. We've made it on the board a lot. Prosecutors generally have a conflict of interest in going after cops who they otherwise rely on. Not just because they rely on a given suspect as a witness in other cases, but because they rely on that suspect's peers. Administrative proceedings within departments present the same problems. And because there are a variety of softer punishments available, there is a real incentive to give what amounts to a slap on the wrist.

In civil litigation, qualified immunity is a huge barrier to individual liability and supervisor and municipal liability is incredibly difficult to prove. In the worst cases, the Justice Department will get involved and the force might have to operate under a consent order supervised by the District Court, but the Feds' appetite for that really depends on administration.

Finally, there's the fact that a lot of what I consider "misconduct" isn't illegal. The use of civil asset forfeiture in this country is a national disgrace. But it's not illegal unless we overturn a host of precedents that allow it for probable cause instead of a more demanding standard.

I have a question - if people feel that there was misconduct in the Brown and Garner situations why can't the US Attorney prosecute the cops for civil rights violations and even murder?

That has definitely happened here in NO and they have gotten convictions.

The US Attorney could probably prosecute for deprivation of rights under color of law. 18 USC Sec. 242. You'll remember that there was talk of looking into prosecuting George Zimmerman under that statute.

In theory, such a charge would present no double jeopardy or res judicata concerns, but I think it's pretty unusual for the DOJ to go after individual officers as opposed to municipalities because of resource concerns.

 

[urbanhack]

We have two police unions - one is black, one is white. That's right our police union is voluntarily segregated. Neither seem at all interested in changing that.

wow, never heard of that. horrible. got a link about that?

We have the Black Organization of Police (BOP):

http://www.neworleansbusinesslist.com/business/2671490.htm

And we have the Police Association of New Orleans.

http://pano1544.com/

By the 1970s enough black officers had been hired that the Black Organization of Police in New Orleans was formed to begin addressing the aggressive policing tactics and to make sure black officers were treated fairly. “There was little the organization could do,” said Moore. “If officers in the organization were perceived as being radical, their career would stall.”

http://sites.utexas.edu/shelflife/2010/03/01/black-rage-in-new-orleans-police-brutality-spawns-activism/

I'm not saying these two organizations are literally segregated according to rule or as a membership requirement, but that's pretty much the way it breaks down as a practical matter. PANO is white, BOP is black.

You sure made it sound that way.

 

[tdoss]

We have two police unions - one is black, one is white. That's right our police union is voluntarily segregated. Neither seem at all interested in changing that.

wow, never heard of that. horrible. got a link about that?

We have the Black Organization of Police (BOP):

http://www.neworleansbusinesslist.com/business/2671490.htm

And we have the Police Association of New Orleans.

http://pano1544.com/

By the 1970s enough black officers had been hired that the Black Organization of Police in New Orleans was formed to begin addressing the aggressive policing tactics and to make sure black officers were treated fairly. There was little the organization could do, said Moore. If officers in the organization were perceived as being radical, their career would stall.

http://sites.utexas.edu/shelflife/2010/03/01/black-rage-in-new-orleans-police-brutality-spawns-activism/

I'm not saying these two organizations are literally segregated according to rule or as a membership requirement, but that's pretty much the way it breaks down as a practical matter. PANO is white, BOP is black.

You sure made it sound that way.

He said voluntarily segregated.

 

[fatness]

http://www.alan.com/2014/12/04/grand-jury-clears-two-white-texas-cops-who-brutally-beat-a-black-woman-over-an-unpaid-traffic-ticket/

That's pretty disgraceful conduct on the part of the police. The headslam on the counter before taking someone to the floor seems to be a favored moved there. Fortunately

It was less than a month after the beating that Jasper’s city council voted to fire Cunningham and Grissom.

 

[whiskey7]

http://www.alan.com/2014/12/04/grand-jury-clears-two-white-texas-cops-who-brutally-beat-a-black-woman-over-an-unpaid-traffic-ticket/

That's pretty disgraceful conduct on the part of the police. The headslam on the counter before taking someone to the floor seems to be a favored moved there. Fortunately

It was less than a month after the beating that Jaspers city council voted to fire Cunningham and Grissom.

Yep. Those cops were fired as was the cop in Tenn who choked a guy. Cop in SC indicted/charged with murder. Another SC cop fired and charged with A & B for wrongfully shooting someone. Those are just of the few cases I have seen linked here in FFA.

ETA: links added and text altered for accuracy. Also, FWIW, the cop who took Garner down did receive disciplinary action. I am sure many people will say not nearly enough action, but he was disciplined.

From the link above: "Pantaleo has been placed on modified duty, his shield and gun taken. Saturday, cops gathered evidence at his home in the Great Kills section of Staten Island, leaving with a long, narrow box and three bags."

So I think it's probably very fair to say cops are not held accountable as often as they should be but not fair to say they never are.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

http://www.alan.com/2014/12/04/grand-jury-clears-two-white-texas-cops-who-brutally-beat-a-black-woman-over-an-unpaid-traffic-ticket/

That's pretty disgraceful conduct on the part of the police. The headslam on the counter before taking someone to the floor seems to be a favored moved there. Fortunately

It was less than a month after the beating that Jaspers city council voted to fire Cunningham and Grissom.

Yep. Those cops were fired as was the cop in Tenn (I think?) who choked a guy. Cop in SC also found guilty of wrongfully shooting someone IIRC. Those are just of the few cases I have seen linked here in FFA.So I think it's probably very fair to say cops are not held accountable as often as they should be but not fair to say they never are.

I agree they can be held accountable or have been. They just often are not.

There is a national conversation linking what happened to Martin, Brown and Garner. Each of those incidents happened in very different areas. Martin did not even involve a cop but it gets thrown into a discussion about the unfair treatment and essentially allegedly legalized murder of black men. But there are several things that can be done locally, ultimately it's not a national problem because if and when cops do do wrong, and even if you assume the Martin/Brown/Garner cases were injustices, the solutions are on a local level. At best the US Attorneys can prosecute and can be encouraged to do so by the US Attorney General, but USA's are local officials.

 

[Insein]

lol @ comparing cops to teachers. Cops have way more backup and most teachers are not carrying.

Most teachers don't even get backup from the main office. The principals usually ignore most teacher complaints out of simple laziness.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

After the incident, the Jasper city council voted to fire the two officers. Diggles also settled a civil rights lawsuit against the city for $75,000. Michels at the Texas Observer noted that “that alone was a stronger response than many allegations of police brutality get, and Jasper Mayor Mike Lout said the council would work with the district attorney to consider criminal charges against the officers.”

http://www.burntorangereport.com/diary/28786/texas-grand-jury-clears-two-white-cops-brutally-beat-black-woman-unpaid-traffic-ticket

Again, local solution.

I will add that the US Attorney for the area, reporting to AG Holder, could prosecute for civil rights violations.

Btw Jasper sounds like a scarey place.

 

[Insein]

On a side note, how awful a job is Internal Affairs?

 

[Steve Tasker]

I have friends that are cops. Some are fine upstanding individuals. [. . .] I have a bunch of personal stories about cops that no way I'm putting in writing. So to answer your question, GB, NO ####### WAY are they held accountable. It's ####### disgusting.

I could've written those same sentences, verbatim, about my own personal experiences with police officer friends.