Are teams allowed to film Coordinators? (1 Viewer)

[kevinray]

I know it’s another Spygate thread but it’s a spill over from the Steelers thread and I'd be interested in finding out if I'm right about this. You guys can merge it with the main one if you want.

I think there’s a big misconception about what the Patriots were accused of. Most people here seem to think that teams aren't allowed to film coordinators. I believe that’s inaccurate and that any NFL team can film any thing on the field so long as the camera is in a proper location. The original NFL.com story sites the rule listed below and the memo as where the violation occurred.

NFL.com story

Patriots under investigation for following rules, guidelines violations ...

1. Page 105 of the Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

2. And, a memo from Ray Anderson, NFL head of football operations, to head coaches and GMs on Sept. 6, 2006 said: "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

Neither of these comes out and says that teams can't film coordinators but simply places restrictions on where teams can film. It doesn't say that teams can't film since video shooting is allows in locations enclosed on sides with a roof overhead and not accessible to club staff during the game. I also feel like if filming coordinators was prohibited by the rule book then they simply would have quoted that rule instead of one that places restrictions on where filming can occur.

I think that in these locations teams can film whatever they want on the field of play and I believe this idea is supported by Goodell’s quote during his press conference on 2-1-08.

"They may have collected that information within the rules of the NFL, but we felt it was appropriate, since we couldn't determine it, that we take all of it."

Goodell press conference

I don't see how, if filming coordinators at all is illegal, that there could be any doubt that film of coordinators could have been collected legally.

So honestly now is there something wrong with my interpretation of the situation or is this accurate and NFL teams can film coordinators if the camera's are in the proper area?

 

[SteelerMurf]

Pats have been cheating for 7 years. Their "dynasty" now includes

Trophy 1 (video tape errrrr allegedly videotaped Rams practice)

Tropy 2 (got to superbowl after illegally videotaping the Steelers both in their regular season game and the AFC Championship)

Trophy 3 (so far no rumors or proof of cheating other than their status quo and they only won this by 3 pts)

Trophy 4....oh that's right they lost 2 weeks ago....a dynasty with a LOSS

 

[kevinray]

Pats have been cheating for 7 years. Their "dynasty" now includesTrophy 1 (video tape errrrr allegedly videotaped Rams practice)Tropy 2 (got to superbowl after illegally videotaping the Steelers both in their regular season game and the AFC Championship)Trophy 3 (so far no rumors or proof of cheating other than their status quo and they only won this by 3 pts)Trophy 4....oh that's right they lost 2 weeks ago....a dynasty with a LOSS

I'm not trying to defend the Pats. They cheated and were punished, and if more comes out from Walsh there will be more punishing. I'm just curious about what the rule violoation was and if teams can film coordinators.

 

[Road Warriors]

I know it’s another Spygate thread but it’s a spill over from the Steelers thread and I'd be interested in finding out if I'm right about this. You guys can merge it with the main one if you want.

I think there’s a big misconception about what the Patriots were accused of. Most people here seem to think that teams aren't allowed to film coordinators. I believe that’s inaccurate and that any NFL team can film any thing on the field so long as the camera is in a proper location. The original NFL.com story sites the rule listed below and the memo as where the violation occurred.

NFL.com story

Patriots under investigation for following rules, guidelines violations ...

1. Page 105 of the Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

2. And, a memo from Ray Anderson, NFL head of football operations, to head coaches and GMs on Sept. 6, 2006 said: "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent’s offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches’ booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

Neither of these comes out and says that teams can't film coordinators but simply places restrictions on where teams can film. It doesn't say that teams can't film since video shooting is allows in locations enclosed on sides with a roof overhead and not accessible to club staff during the game. I also feel like if filming coordinators was prohibited by the rule book then they simply would have quoted that rule instead of one that places restrictions on where filming can occur.

I think that in these locations teams can film whatever they want on the field of play and I believe this idea is supported by Goodell’s quote during his press conference on 2-1-08.

"They may have collected that information within the rules of the NFL, but we felt it was appropriate, since we couldn't determine it, that we take all of it."

Goodell press conference

I don't see how, if filming coordinators at all is illegal, that there could be any doubt that film of coordinators could have been collected legally.

So honestly now is there something wrong with my interpretation of the situation or is this accurate and NFL teams can film coordinators if the camera's are in the proper area?

This gets into real shades of grey. IMO, the rules surely could have been written more clearly... For instance, "You can't use any means of recording opposing coaches or staff during the game" would be a pretty cut & dried rule.When discussing this case rationally, and putting aside any bias based on the team in question, it really does become an interesting question. When Goodell states that they can't be certain that the information collected was obtained illegally, that means the legality is not in the information ( having the coaches signals ), but in the method of collecting it.

Video cam-no.

Still photos? OK.

What about high speed action photos, 15 shots / second... not video tape, right? Is that OK?

Or is it even less clear than that?

Video cam in an enclosed area with a roof: OK

Video cam in an open area: NO

If the value to the team, the possible advantage is in the information, and the information can be obtained within the rules, does that change perception?

I have my opinions, which are significantly based ( and biased ) on my loyalties as a fan. But the facts, as you note, are not black & white. Its all shades of grey.

 

[GregR_2]

I know it’s another Spygate thread but it’s a spill over from the Steelers thread and I'd be interested in finding out if I'm right about this. You guys can merge it with the main one if you want.I think there’s a big misconception about what the Patriots were accused of. Most people here seem to think that teams aren't allowed to film coordinators. I believe that’s inaccurate and that any NFL team can film any thing on the field so long as the camera is in a proper location. The original NFL.com story sites the rule listed below and the memo as where the violation occurred....

My understanding, mainly from various articles from guys in the media who actually get to ask NFL officials things, is that part of the reason for the rule that cameras can only tape from one location is so that teams know where the cameras are, and can obstruct the view to stuff off the field that they don't want taped.If I don't want my signals, or anything else specific on my sideline, potentially taped, I have a player hold up a towel between me and the camera (which we've seen happen), or I have a couple of big players stand over by my coach who is sending in the signal to block the camera's view (which we've seen happen). As far as I'm aware, you are correct that filming coordinators is not itself illegal. Putting cameras in other places so as to defeat the other team's ability to prevent activities off the field of play from being taped, is the illegal part.

 

[kevinray]

I know it’s another Spygate thread but it’s a spill over from the Steelers thread and I'd be interested in finding out if I'm right about this. You guys can merge it with the main one if you want.I think there’s a big misconception about what the Patriots were accused of. Most people here seem to think that teams aren't allowed to film coordinators. I believe that’s inaccurate and that any NFL team can film any thing on the field so long as the camera is in a proper location. The original NFL.com story sites the rule listed below and the memo as where the violation occurred....

My understanding, mainly from various articles from guys in the media who actually get to ask NFL officials things, is that part of the reason for the rule that cameras can only tape from one location is so that teams know where the cameras are, and can obstruct the view to stuff off the field that they don't want taped.If I don't want my signals, or anything else specific on my sideline, potentially taped, I have a player hold up a towel between me and the camera (which we've seen happen), or I have a couple of big players stand over by my coach who is sending in the signal to block the camera's view (which we've seen happen). As far as I'm aware, you are correct that filming coordinators is not itself illegal. Putting cameras in other places so as to defeat the other team's ability to prevent activities off the field of play from being taped, is the illegal part.

Thanks for the response. That’s something I'd given thought to as well for the motive of the Patriots to violate the rule. Since these filming areas are limited to the point where they’d really have to be apart of the stadiums construction and unmovable you could block a teams ability to film certain things.

 

[PatsFanCT]

I know it’s another Spygate thread but it’s a spill over from the Steelers thread and I'd be interested in finding out if I'm right about this. You guys can merge it with the main one if you want.I think there’s a big misconception about what the Patriots were accused of. Most people here seem to think that teams aren't allowed to film coordinators. I believe that’s inaccurate and that any NFL team can film any thing on the field so long as the camera is in a proper location. The original NFL.com story sites the rule listed below and the memo as where the violation occurred....

My understanding, mainly from various articles from guys in the media who actually get to ask NFL officials things, is that part of the reason for the rule that cameras can only tape from one location is so that teams know where the cameras are, and can obstruct the view to stuff off the field that they don't want taped.If I don't want my signals, or anything else specific on my sideline, potentially taped, I have a player hold up a towel between me and the camera (which we've seen happen), or I have a couple of big players stand over by my coach who is sending in the signal to block the camera's view (which we've seen happen). As far as I'm aware, you are correct that filming coordinators is not itself illegal. Putting cameras in other places so as to defeat the other team's ability to prevent activities off the field of play from being taped, is the illegal part.

Thanks for the response. That’s something I'd given thought to as well for the motive of the Patriots to violate the rule. Since these filming areas are limited to the point where they’d really have to be apart of the stadiums construction and unmovable you could block a teams ability to film certain things.

Basically, you can video tape from both end zones, as the Jets, and I assume every other team does, but you can't tape from the sidelines or any area that will give in game access to those tapes.

 

[kevinray]

Basically, you can video tape from both end zones, as the Jets, and I assume every other team does, but you can't tape from the sidelines or any area that will give in game access to those tapes.

Wouldn't that violate the rule having a camera on the field? I haven't paid much attention to it but are there really guys in booths with roofs overhead at the end zones filming? I always imagined the filming was done in special areas higher up in the stadium, but that’s pure guessing on my part.

 

[PatsFanCT]

Basically, you can video tape from both end zones, as the Jets, and I assume every other team does, but you can't tape from the sidelines or any area that will give in game access to those tapes.

Wouldn't that violate the rule having a camera on the field? I haven't paid much attention to it but are there really guys in booths with roofs overhead at the end zones filming? I always imagined the filming was done in special areas higher up in the stadium, but that’s pure guessing on my part.

Story Link“We taped the game, is what we taped, and we taped end-zone copy of the game, and we tape a double end zone, which is standard operating procedure for us,” Mangini said Wednesday. “We request that every single road game, and it’s usually granted if physically it’s possible. And when people request it from us, we do the same thing: We grant it.”

Mangini was also asked if the Jets were, at all, taping the Patriots’ defensive signals.

“No,” Mangini said smugly.

“It’s usually just a function of whether there’s a location that we can do it from or not,” he said. “It’s a pretty common courtesy.”

And it's legal

According to NFL spokesman Greg Aiello, the Jets didn’t break any rules by filming the Patriots with a second end zone camera last year, provided the Pats granted permission, which Jets coach Eric Mangini said today that they did.

“It is not uncommon for visiting team video crews to request permission to shoot coaching video from both upper end zone positions,” Aiello said. “Home clubs must provide visiting clubs with equal vantage points for the taping of games. Teams typically shoot coaching video from one upper 50-yard line location and one upper end zone location, but there are no restrictions on shooting from both upper end zone positions as long as the opportunity is provided to both teams. No permission is needed from the league office.”

 

[kevinray]

Basically, you can video tape from both end zones, as the Jets, and I assume every other team does, but you can't tape from the sidelines or any area that will give in game access to those tapes.

Wouldn't that violate the rule having a camera on the field? I haven't paid much attention to it but are there really guys in booths with roofs overhead at the end zones filming? I always imagined the filming was done in special areas higher up in the stadium, but that’s pure guessing on my part.

Story Link“We taped the game, is what we taped, and we taped end-zone copy of the game, and we tape a double end zone, which is standard operating procedure for us,” Mangini said Wednesday. “We request that every single road game, and it’s usually granted if physically it’s possible. And when people request it from us, we do the same thing: We grant it.”

Mangini was also asked if the Jets were, at all, taping the Patriots’ defensive signals.

“No,” Mangini said smugly.

“It’s usually just a function of whether there’s a location that we can do it from or not,” he said. “It’s a pretty common courtesy.”

And it's legal

According to NFL spokesman Greg Aiello, the Jets didn’t break any rules by filming the Patriots with a second end zone camera last year, provided the Pats granted permission, which Jets coach Eric Mangini said today that they did.

“It is not uncommon for visiting team video crews to request permission to shoot coaching video from both upper end zone positions,” Aiello said. “Home clubs must provide visiting clubs with equal vantage points for the taping of games. Teams typically shoot coaching video from one upper 50-yard line location and one upper end zone location, but there are no restrictions on shooting from both upper end zone positions as long as the opportunity is provided to both teams. No permission is needed from the league office.”

Good find. Thanks for the info.

 

[GregR_2]

Basically, you can video tape from both end zones, as the Jets, and I assume every other team does, but you can't tape from the sidelines or any area that will give in game access to those tapes.

Wouldn't that violate the rule having a camera on the field? I haven't paid much attention to it but are there really guys in booths with roofs overhead at the end zones filming? I always imagined the filming was done in special areas higher up in the stadium, but that’s pure guessing on my part.

Story Link“We taped the game, is what we taped, and we taped end-zone copy of the game, and we tape a double end zone, which is standard operating procedure for us,” Mangini said Wednesday. “We request that every single road game, and it’s usually granted if physically it’s possible. And when people request it from us, we do the same thing: We grant it.”

Mangini was also asked if the Jets were, at all, taping the Patriots’ defensive signals.

“No,” Mangini said smugly.

“It’s usually just a function of whether there’s a location that we can do it from or not,” he said. “It’s a pretty common courtesy.”

And it's legal

According to NFL spokesman Greg Aiello, the Jets didn’t break any rules by filming the Patriots with a second end zone camera last year, provided the Pats granted permission, which Jets coach Eric Mangini said today that they did.

“It is not uncommon for visiting team video crews to request permission to shoot coaching video from both upper end zone positions,” Aiello said. “Home clubs must provide visiting clubs with equal vantage points for the taping of games. Teams typically shoot coaching video from one upper 50-yard line location and one upper end zone location, but there are no restrictions on shooting from both upper end zone positions as long as the opportunity is provided to both teams. No permission is needed from the league office.”

Good find. Thanks for the info.

Agreed, thanks for the post. I don't recall having heard a definitive statement before from the NFL on the Jets taping incident.

 

[AB in DC]

Basically, you can video tape from both end zones, as the Jets, and I assume every other team does, but you can't tape from the sidelines or any area that will give in game access to those tapes.

Wouldn't that violate the rule having a camera on the field? I haven't paid much attention to it but are there really guys in booths with roofs overhead at the end zones filming? I always imagined the filming was done in special areas higher up in the stadium, but that’s pure guessing on my part.

Story Link“It is not uncommon for visiting team video crews to request permission to shoot coaching video from both upper end zone positions,” Aiello said. “Home clubs must provide visiting clubs with equal vantage points for the taping of games. Teams typically shoot coaching video from one upper 50-yard line location and one upper end zone location, but there are no restrictions on shooting from both upper end zone positions as long as the opportunity is provided to both teams. No permission is needed from the league office.”

Interesting.

 

[PatsFanCT]

It's also interesting how the Pats bashers, who feel compelled to vehemently display their disgust of the Patriots cheating ways in other threads, won't comment in a post that basically proves every team in the NFL video tapes games, and quite possibly, defensive signals. Not to say what the Pats did was right, but there's a lot of ignorant "Appalledness" going around, where anti-pats fans act as if what the Patriots did should be added to the seven deadly sins.

Your team videotapes defensive signals from a legal vantage spot in a 50-yard line location; No problem. The Patriots videotape the same thing from an illegal spot on the sideline; Congressional hearings, an NFL conspiracy theory cover-up as to why the tapes were destroyed, and an * in the record books.

 

[hitmenssharpshooters]

It's also interesting how the Pats bashers, who feel compelled to vehemently display their disgust of the Patriots cheating ways in other threads, won't comment in a post that basically proves every team in the NFL video tapes games, and quite possibly, defensive signals. Not to say what the Pats did was right, but there's a lot of ignorant "Appalledness" going around, where anti-pats fans act as if what the Patriots did should be added to the seven deadly sins. Your team videotapes defensive signals from a legal vantage spot in a 50-yard line location; No problem. The Patriots videotape the same thing from an illegal spot on the sideline; Congressional hearings, an NFL conspiracy theory cover-up as to why the tapes were destroyed, and an * in the record books.

OH...I'll admit it..Jimmy Johnson admitted to cheating on FOX while with Miami.Difference...the arrrogance of BB,Brady and "some" of Pats fans on the board.

 

[SteelerMurf]

It's also interesting how the Pats bashers, who feel compelled to vehemently display their disgust of the Patriots cheating ways in other threads, won't comment in a post that basically proves every team in the NFL video tapes games, and quite possibly, defensive signals. Not to say what the Pats did was right, but there's a lot of ignorant "Appalledness" going around, where anti-pats fans act as if what the Patriots did should be added to the seven deadly sins. Your team videotapes defensive signals from a legal vantage spot in a 50-yard line location; No problem. The Patriots videotape the same thing from an illegal spot on the sideline; Congressional hearings, an NFL conspiracy theory cover-up as to why the tapes were destroyed, and an * in the record books.

Of course every team videotapes games...in a legal fashion. But they don't videotape coaches signals. Unless you have some proof of other teams doing this in the Bellicheat era of NE?

 

[SteelerMurf]

It's also interesting how the Pats bashers, who feel compelled to vehemently display their disgust of the Patriots cheating ways in other threads, won't comment in a post that basically proves every team in the NFL video tapes games, and quite possibly, defensive signals. Not to say what the Pats did was right, but there's a lot of ignorant "Appalledness" going around, where anti-pats fans act as if what the Patriots did should be added to the seven deadly sins. Your team videotapes defensive signals from a legal vantage spot in a 50-yard line location; No problem. The Patriots videotape the same thing from an illegal spot on the sideline; Congressional hearings, an NFL conspiracy theory cover-up as to why the tapes were destroyed, and an * in the record books.

OH...I'll admit it..Jimmy Johnson admitted to cheating on FOX while with Miami.Difference...the arrrogance of BB,Brady and "some" of Pats fans on the board.

That's one coach and he said he only did it once cause it didn't help him. Interestingly Pats fans ignore the rest of his interview where he said the Pats must have found an advantage to keep using it and even a small advantage of even one play can be the difference.....in say a 3 pt Superbowl win and a 3 pts superbowl loss.

 

[kevinray]

It's also interesting how the Pats bashers, who feel compelled to vehemently display their disgust of the Patriots cheating ways in other threads, won't comment in a post that basically proves every team in the NFL video tapes games, and quite possibly, defensive signals. Not to say what the Pats did was right, but there's a lot of ignorant "Appalledness" going around, where anti-pats fans act as if what the Patriots did should be added to the seven deadly sins.

Your team videotapes defensive signals from a legal vantage spot in a 50-yard line location; No problem. The Patriots videotape the same thing from an illegal spot on the sideline; Congressional hearings, an NFL conspiracy theory cover-up as to why the tapes were destroyed, and an * in the record books.

Of course every team videotapes games...in a legal fashion. But they don't videotape coaches signals. Unless you have some proof of other teams doing this in the Bellicheat era of NE?

I don't see how you can say this in spite of the evidence being presented here. In Goodells press conference above he admits that stealing signals is common in all sports."I think as far as the actual effectiveness of taping signals, as you all know, taking signals from opposing football teams or in other sports is done and it is done quite widely and teams prepare for that. "

At the very least its the other teams CHOICE not to film coordinators, and if they feel it’s a waste of their time then that’s their decision. It certainly isn't illegal to film coordinators, so long as the camera is in the right place. I am a Steeler fan and I completely understand why the Rooneys wouldn't see the Patriots recording them being a issue since the advantage gained from recording out of position would seem to be negligible and the Steelers could have dissected the Pats signals if they wanted to put the time in.

The small advantage gained doesn’t make up for ignoring an NFL rule and reiteration of a rule and this is why they were punished. If credible evidence comes out of further infractions through Walsh’s testimony or the congressional investigation then there will be more penalties. But the notion that filming coordinators is illegal and underhanded has been disproved here and is legal by NFL rules.

 

[kevinray]

It's also interesting how the Pats bashers, who feel compelled to vehemently display their disgust of the Patriots cheating ways in other threads, won't comment in a post that basically proves every team in the NFL video tapes games, and quite possibly, defensive signals. Not to say what the Pats did was right, but there's a lot of ignorant "Appalledness" going around, where anti-pats fans act as if what the Patriots did should be added to the seven deadly sins. Your team videotapes defensive signals from a legal vantage spot in a 50-yard line location; No problem. The Patriots videotape the same thing from an illegal spot on the sideline; Congressional hearings, an NFL conspiracy theory cover-up as to why the tapes were destroyed, and an * in the record books.

OH...I'll admit it..Jimmy Johnson admitted to cheating on FOX while with Miami.Difference...the arrrogance of BB,Brady and "some" of Pats fans on the board.

I'm not specifically criticizing you here, but the arrogance of a fan base is not an excuse for the overwhelming ignorance of a lot of posters on this message board as to the extent and legality of filming other team’s coordinators. If you’re going to knock the Patriots there are so many factual things to pick from besides continually harping on the inaccurate belief that it’s illegal to film coaches.

 

[SteelerMurf]

It's also interesting how the Pats bashers, who feel compelled to vehemently display their disgust of the Patriots cheating ways in other threads, won't comment in a post that basically proves every team in the NFL video tapes games, and quite possibly, defensive signals. Not to say what the Pats did was right, but there's a lot of ignorant "Appalledness" going around, where anti-pats fans act as if what the Patriots did should be added to the seven deadly sins.

Your team videotapes defensive signals from a legal vantage spot in a 50-yard line location; No problem. The Patriots videotape the same thing from an illegal spot on the sideline; Congressional hearings, an NFL conspiracy theory cover-up as to why the tapes were destroyed, and an * in the record books.

OH...I'll admit it..Jimmy Johnson admitted to cheating on FOX while with Miami.Difference...the arrrogance of BB,Brady and "some" of Pats fans on the board.

I'm not specifically criticizing you here, but the arrogance of a fan base is not an excuse for the overwhelming ignorance of a lot of posters on this message board as to the extent and legality of filming other team’s coordinators. If you’re going to knock the Patriots there are so many factual things to pick from besides continually harping on the inaccurate belief that it’s illegal to film coaches.

OK, then what did they get fined for what did they get warned about before the season....

 

[kevinray]

It's also interesting how the Pats bashers, who feel compelled to vehemently display their disgust of the Patriots cheating ways in other threads, won't comment in a post that basically proves every team in the NFL video tapes games, and quite possibly, defensive signals. Not to say what the Pats did was right, but there's a lot of ignorant "Appalledness" going around, where anti-pats fans act as if what the Patriots did should be added to the seven deadly sins.

Your team videotapes defensive signals from a legal vantage spot in a 50-yard line location; No problem. The Patriots videotape the same thing from an illegal spot on the sideline; Congressional hearings, an NFL conspiracy theory cover-up as to why the tapes were destroyed, and an * in the record books.

OH...I'll admit it..Jimmy Johnson admitted to cheating on FOX while with Miami.Difference...the arrrogance of BB,Brady and "some" of Pats fans on the board.

I'm not specifically criticizing you here, but the arrogance of a fan base is not an excuse for the overwhelming ignorance of a lot of posters on this message board as to the extent and legality of filming other team’s coordinators. If you’re going to knock the Patriots there are so many factual things to pick from besides continually harping on the inaccurate belief that it’s illegal to film coaches.

OK, then what did they get fined for what did they get warned about before the season....

Violating this rule and this memo listed above:1. Page 105 of the Game Operations manual says: "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game." It later says: "All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."

2. And, a memo from Ray Anderson, NFL head of football operations, to head coaches and GMs on Sept. 6, 2006 said: "Video taping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."

You can't have a camera in the stands. They had a camera operator in the stands behind the jets sideline. That's not a legal position to place the camera. They were told they couldn't place the camera in these areas and they continued to do it. Greg made a good suggestion as to a motive for why they would violate the rule in his first post in the thread but I don't think the Pats have ever come out and said why they did it.