Are Wins a QB Stat? (1 Viewer)

[Terpman22]

If you don't believe wins are a QB stat

Do you also believe Dan Marino >>> Joe Montana

If not, why?

 

[-OZ-]

No.

I do think Marino is among the best QBs of all time, Joe is right there with him. IMO the comparison question comes down to whether we think one would do better than the other if they were in the other player’s situation. With Joe and Dan, the answer imo is no. Dan wouldn’t win more championships than Joe did as a 49er, Joe wouldn’t have better stats or won a Super Bowl with Miami.
So I’m taking the cheap way out and call them equal.

IMO Peyton and Brady are the same conversation.

 

[eighsse2]

Wins are more sensible as a QB stat than they are a kick returner stat, or WR3 stat, or o-line coach stat. But if they're a QB stat in some degree, then they're also all of those to lesser degrees.

 

[Gally]

I think they are utilized as a QB stat when evaluating QB's. While I think they can be valuable for that evaluation they aren't the end all be all that some make it out to be. I also believe there are different caveats when debating who is "better".

In this example, I think Marino was a better QB than Montana in relation to the physical skills a QB uses. Arm strength, release, placement, etc. But ask me who I want as my QB with the game on the line, down 4 with 2 minutes left.....give me Montana.

It's not a straight forward answer.

 

[Terpman22]

No.

I do think Marino is among the best QBs of all time, Joe is right there with him. IMO the comparison question comes down to whether we think one would do better than the other if they were in the other player’s situation. With Joe and Dan, the answer imo is no. Dan wouldn’t win more championships than Joe did as a 49er, Joe wouldn’t have better stats or won a Super Bowl with Miami.
So I’m taking the cheap way out and call them equal.

IMO Peyton and Brady are the same conversation.

Good answer here. Its like trying to think of "The Best QBs ever that didn't win it all"

I got Marino, Tarkenton, Fouts, Moon, Kelly?

then it get muddy real quick, but no one ever puts a QB that didn't win a Super Bowl even in the top 5 really

 

[VaTerp]

Wins are by definition a Team stat.

I do think it's a valid data point in evaluating QBs. But it obviously needs a lot of context. Football is the ultimate team sport so there are so many factors that go into winning. Other positions, coaching, etc.

That said, QBs have a greater impact on winning than any other individual position. So wins are part of the data that should be considered and why guys like Bradshaw and Aikman are elevated over QBs with similar or even better stats.

And to me Joe Montana is the GOAT- even over Brady. But that's my own bias as someone who fell in love with the NFL as a little kid in the 80s. So I don't think Marino is better than Montana. But I do think he is better than Elway.

I'm guessing this post was brought up in part b/c of Jalen Hurts. It will be interesting to see what happens with the careers of Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, and other elite QBs now that we seem to be in the Mahomes era.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

They're more than a QB stat.

 

[Terpman22]

Wins are by definition a Team stat.

I do think it's a valid data point in evaluating QBs. But it obviously needs a lot of context. Football is the ultimate team sport so there are so many factors that go into winning. Other positions, coaching, etc.

That said, QBs have a greater impact on winning than any other individual position. So wins are part of the data that should be considered and why guys like Bradshaw and Aikman are elevated over QBs with similar or even better stats.

And to me Joe Montana is the GOAT- even over Brady. But that's my own bias as someone who fell in love with the NFL as a little kid in the 80s. So I don't think Marino is better than Montana. But I do think he is better than Elway.

I'm guessing this post was brought up in part b/c of Jalen Hurts. It will be interesting to see what happens with the careers of Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, and other elite QBs now that we seem to be in the Mahomes era.

Great post here on the topic and I'm with you on Montana. I think also what is part of it is the CLUTCH factor. Montana is THE best Super Bowl QB ever. The stats back in up in every metric. 4-0. 11 TDs, 0 INTS. Most TDs per Super Bowl, 2nd highest TD %, 127.8 QB Rating - the highest. Over a 4 game sample size.

Its truly insane if you flesh his stats out and how he performed the best at THE HIGHEST level.

And yeah, this is Jalen Hurts inspired as well haha

 

[IHEARTFF]

Wins are more sensible as a QB stat than they are a kick returner stat, or WR3 stat, or o-line coach stat. But if they're a QB stat in some degree, then they're also all of those to lesser degrees.

QBs have more influence on w/l than any other position, but there’s still too much out of their control to call wins a qb stat directly.

 

[N Zone]

No.
Montana didn't win a Super Bowl with Kansas City.
The SF team around Montana was stacked.

 

[Terpman22]

No.
Montana didn't win a Super Bowl with Kansas City.
The SF team around Montana was stacked.

You mean the last 2 years of his career after his back was jacked up/the reason SF got rid of him?

And still he got them to a conference title game for the first time in like 20+ years but they met a much younger/better team in the Buffalo Bills.

 

[VaTerp]

Wins are by definition a Team stat.

I do think it's a valid data point in evaluating QBs. But it obviously needs a lot of context. Football is the ultimate team sport so there are so many factors that go into winning. Other positions, coaching, etc.

That said, QBs have a greater impact on winning than any other individual position. So wins are part of the data that should be considered and why guys like Bradshaw and Aikman are elevated over QBs with similar or even better stats.

And to me Joe Montana is the GOAT- even over Brady. But that's my own bias as someone who fell in love with the NFL as a little kid in the 80s. So I don't think Marino is better than Montana. But I do think he is better than Elway.

I'm guessing this post was brought up in part b/c of Jalen Hurts. It will be interesting to see what happens with the careers of Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, and other elite QBs now that we seem to be in the Mahomes era.

Great post here on the topic and I'm with you on Montana. I think also what is part of it is the CLUTCH factor. Montana is THE best Super Bowl QB ever. The stats back in up in every metric. 4-0. 11 TDs, 0 INTS. Most TDs per Super Bowl, 2nd highest TD %, 127.8 QB Rating - the highest. Over a 4 game sample size.

Its truly insane if you flesh his stats out and how he performed the best at THE HIGHEST level.

And yeah, this is Jalen Hurts inspired as well haha

Yeah this is always an interesting topic. A lot of people don't realize that Montana won his first Super Bowl before Jerry Rice and Roger Craig. I was having a friendly debate about this the other day b/c I still believe Montana is the GOAT even over Brady. But you can't really argue against Brady after he went and got a ring in TB. But I'm sticking with Joe Cool just b/c.

It's also hard to compare across eras because of how different the game is schemed and officiated now compared to previous eras. That's why things like win %, game winning drives, other "clutch" metrics carry weight. Super Bowls are obviously the ultimate "win stat" but we probably put a little too much emphasis on that. But that's the nature of sports.

Going back to Elway as an example- just b/c I have a personal bias against him. I'll give him his due for his game winning drives, two rings, and 5 super bowl appearances. And obviously his athletic ability. But IMO, if he doesn't get lucky in matching up with Shanahan to get over the hump and those two rings- I would rate him just behind Fran Tarkenton. Seriously. Again, I have a personal bias against him dating back to being a Marino fan and getting into arguments in elementary school about who was better between the two of them. And then hearing MANY first hand accounts of people who said he is a major Richard based on encounters with him.

But anyways, great topic. Cunningham was another one of my favorites to watch as a kid- even as a Skins fan. I really would have liked to see his career unfold with better luck with injuries, coaching, etc. Or even if he played in this era where I think offensive schemes are more suited to his skill set.

As Herm Edwards has often repeated- Jayden Daniels is sort of a current day version or evolution of Cunningham. I pray JD5 has better fortune in his career.

Regarding Hurts, I think he is better than the general consensus on him. He is somewhat limited as a pocket-passer but he consistently makes winning plays and avoids costly mistakes. And his Super Bowl performances have been damn good.

 

[ffmail4me]

I don't think so. I mean, Mac Jones and the Patriots beat the Bills back in 2021 and Jones was 2-3 for 19 yards for the GAME. Should he get a bunch of credit for the win?

 

[Leroy Hoard]

They're more than a QB stat.

While I think one player out of 53 has always been somewhat overrated, I think fantasy and prop bets have made it even moreso these days.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

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Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

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Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

 

[Terpman22]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

Was a big big Marino Fan. I remember when he came back from achilles injury and he had some CRAZY stat line I think it was the first game of the season like

Let me see if i can remember exactly like 484 or 461 Yards Passing and 3/4 TDs

As far as standard deviation sort of statistical analysis, I'm pretty sure he still is the biggest outlier when compared to his peers/era etc.

He was legit legit one guy I wish won it all

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

Was a big big Marino Fan. I remember when he came back from achilles injury and he had some CRAZY stat line I think it was the first game of the season like

Let me see if i can remember exactly like 484 or 461 Yards Passing and 3/4 TDs

As far as standard deviation sort of statistical analysis, I'm pretty sure he still is the biggest outlier when compared to his peers/era etc.

He was legit legit one guy I wish won it all

Let me help and I'm sure you're gonna love this
Coming off the Achilles and facing Parcells and the Patriots in '94

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Ghost Rider]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

Was a big big Marino Fan. I remember when he came back from achilles injury and he had some CRAZY stat line I think it was the first game of the season like

Let me see if i can remember exactly like 484 or 461 Yards Passing and 3/4 TDs

As far as standard deviation sort of statistical analysis, I'm pretty sure he still is the biggest outlier when compared to his peers/era etc.

He was legit legit one guy I wish won it all

Marino was awesome in the regular season, but if he wonders why he never won a Super Bowl. he need only look in the mirror. His postseason play was pretty mediocre overall (32 TDs and 24 INTs in 18 playoff games), and he was too up his own backside with wanting to throw all day. Look at how he and Jimmy Johnson butted heads late in his career because Marino didn't want a running game; he still wanted to sling it all day. Contrast that to John Elway, who was totally fine with Terrell Davis taking over and the results speak for themselves. Elway went out with 2 rings, and Marino went out ring-less and was handed a 62-7 loss in his last game.

 

[Terpman22]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

Was a big big Marino Fan. I remember when he came back from achilles injury and he had some CRAZY stat line I think it was the first game of the season like

Let me see if i can remember exactly like 484 or 461 Yards Passing and 3/4 TDs

As far as standard deviation sort of statistical analysis, I'm pretty sure he still is the biggest outlier when compared to his peers/era etc.

He was legit legit one guy I wish won it all

Let me help and I'm sure you're gonna love this
Coming off the Achilles and facing Parcells and the Patriots in '94

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Thanks for that.

481 5/1 ( had it close on the yards!) (42-43.05 PPR points pending your penalty for INTs)

Irving Fryar Line 5/211/3 (44.1 PPR)

He was so much fun to watch b/c literally everyone for a full decade + was like "We've never seen a guy like this before"

 

[TheDirtyWord]

So I have thoughts on this topic...

1) When we think about QB play...I think once upon a time, there was a way the position was played and that was the prototype by which every team looked to unearth their 'franchise QB'. But let me throw some QB stats your way.

1984: 1134/4121/47
1994: 1173/3685/39
2004: 1400/4960/39
2014: 1648/6629/47
2024: 2353/11009/107

What these are are QB rushing stats (rushes/yards/TD) for the entire NFL during these years. We've certainly seen the evolution of the game over this 40 year period. I think I just saw a graphic where half the starting QB's in the NFL on Opening Day are black.

For so long, an inherent core physical trait of the black QB wasn't valued when it came to evaluating their potential to play the position. As a football fan - Falcon specifically, I was lucky enough to get to watch Michael Vick on a weekly basis before true 'running QB's' became a thing. Season tix. What I'm telling you is that his presence and impact on the game despite his 'traditional QB shortcomings' were essential for breaking the mold. And even that was a process that was even felt by Lamar when Polian said he should try another position.

But going back to Vick...when Jim Mora was hired, he brought Gregg Knapp on board as his OC. I remember them specifically talking about how the WC offense would be such a great fit for him. I think today, a QB of Vick's prodigious raw skills would have an offense and QB room built around his skillset instead of trying to fit him within a pre-defined established structure.

I think Jalen Hurts is a great example of that. And his ability to survive OC after OC going back to his college days has kind of allowed the Eagles to see Hurts this way, focus on his strengths and workaround his weaknesses. Yes...if we look at the position through the lens of even recent greats like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, Hurts falls well short of their LOS abilities and coverage dissection abilities. But when you look at him very specifically, IMO it's tough to argue that he's simply along for the ride on a talented roster. From my vantage point, he has become the ethos of that team, even more than Saquon. And that's where the 'wins as a QB stat' comes into play. That team is far more dangerous with him under center, than not. And while that's not to say they couldn't win games if someone else, even a lesser someone else was playing QB, that team. IS his. And that is the constant for the QB position over the years. Not necessarily how they got the job done...but that more often if not very more often than not...they did.

2) Going back to Falcons QB's...I'm admittedly someone who is fairly lukewarm on Matt Ryan and his legacy.

So...does anyone know what the Falcons record was in his final 9 years as a Falcon? 64-81. And that's a period where Ryan went to a Super Bowl and won an MVP. That's not good. By comparison, Derek Carr in his 9 years as a Raider was 63-79.

Do I blame Ryan for such a substandard performance? Blame wouldn't be the right word...in alot of ways he performed admirably while a team struggled around him. At the same time, he had not one but two members of the all-decade team (Julio, Alex Mack) on offense to work with - something Carr didn't have and yet the overall results were subpar. Ultimately, despite his league 'stature' as one of the better QB's in the NFL statistically during alot of this time, it really didn't make much of a difference on the team stat that matters most. Wins. Were his defenses bad...sure, but during those 9 years, I think the Falcons finished Top 10 in scoring twice. That's the high stakes game of top paid QB's - the bar measuring success is REALLY high. It's very difficult to reach.

The structure of todays NFL allows for teams that hit on rookie QB's to use a much larger percentage of their personnel budget outside of that position. That's why you saw CHI, DEN, MIN, NE, WAS go crazy this off-season acquiring veteran talent. But then once it comes time to pay up 3-4 years into their career, that's when the ratio shifts.

Ryan was one of the first QB's to somewhat experience this in 2013 when he signed his extension after the Falcons made it to the NFCCG. The rookie wage scale didn't exist when he came into the league, but when he signed his extension, it had. And IMO, that 2011 CBA was really the watershed moment in terms of team building in the 21st century. If you were going to get the big extension off your rookie deal and start to account for 20%+ of the teams ability to put a team around you, while you were paid to produce...the primary ingredient of that production now has to be the W/L record. You are now partners with the owner with respect to that outcome.

Now are Super Bowl wins the defining criteria for QB greatness? Well, I think the delta between 1 & 2 SB wins is far less than the delta between 0 & 1. No one would dare say Eli > Rodgers. But now that both are retired, I actually do think Eli > Rivers/Ryan. At the same time, Marino > Eli...Marino changed the game. When he retired he was the all-time leader in yards/TD's by a factor of 20% over the #2 QB. And quite frankly, his performance led to a lot of winning. Just not enough during the high stakes season that is the playoffs.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

Was a big big Marino Fan. I remember when he came back from achilles injury and he had some CRAZY stat line I think it was the first game of the season like

Let me see if i can remember exactly like 484 or 461 Yards Passing and 3/4 TDs

As far as standard deviation sort of statistical analysis, I'm pretty sure he still is the biggest outlier when compared to his peers/era etc.

He was legit legit one guy I wish won it all

Marino was awesome in the regular season, but if he wonders why he never won a Super Bowl. he need only look in the mirror. His postseason play was pretty mediocre overall (32 TDs and 24 INTs in 18 playoff games), and he was too up his own backside with wanting to throw all day. Look at how he and Jimmy Johnson butted heads late in his career because Marino didn't want a running game; he still wanted to sling it all day. Contrast that to John Elway, who was totally fine with Terrell Davis taking over and the results speak for themselves. Elway went out with 2 rings, and Marino went out ring-less and was handed a 62-7 loss in his last game.

You don't know your NFL history as well as you think and I know you want to bash Marino because it wouldn't matter who MoP posted, you were going to take aim at it

1983- Rookie season and din't take over until Week 6, still led the league in passing
1984- Magical run, shattered every single season passing record, the previous high for TD passes was George Blanda in 1961 with 36, Marino crushes it with 48
1985- 2nd consecutive AFCC and fell short to the Patriots, only team to beat the '85 Chicago Bears

'86, '87, '88, '89 they didn't even make the Playoffs because the Miami Dolphins had one of the worst defenses ever and Shula wouldn't fire his DC
4 years in his prime and no playoffs, it wasn't because of Dan Marino
Also during this time Mark Duper developed a pretty serious cocaine problem which is reflective in his stats.
Miami also did a very poor job of replacing his aging stars at WR when the 80s closed

Jimmy Johnson never put his actual stamp on Miami or did anything close to what he was able to accomplish in Dallas and Marino was already 35 with a bad achilles
Was Marino going to enjoy handing off to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Irving Spikes, that was the amazing backfield JJ put behind Marino, he never had an Emmitt Smith or Saquon Barkley

@Todem
Am I framing this right? You grew up in the same era of Miami Dolphins football like I did, those mid to late 80s seasons were absolute nightmares.
Marino still had great stats but they were meaningless because Miami could never stop anyone, their defense was atrocious with Eric Kumerow and John Bosa,
Those were miserable 1st round picks
Marino inherited the Killer Bs on defense and they slowly eroded by '85-'86

 

[Terpman22]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

Was a big big Marino Fan. I remember when he came back from achilles injury and he had some CRAZY stat line I think it was the first game of the season like

Let me see if i can remember exactly like 484 or 461 Yards Passing and 3/4 TDs

As far as standard deviation sort of statistical analysis, I'm pretty sure he still is the biggest outlier when compared to his peers/era etc.

He was legit legit one guy I wish won it all

Marino was awesome in the regular season, but if he wonders why he never won a Super Bowl. he need only look in the mirror. His postseason play was pretty mediocre overall (32 TDs and 24 INTs in 18 playoff games), and he was too up his own backside with wanting to throw all day. Look at how he and Jimmy Johnson butted heads late in his career because Marino didn't want a running game; he still wanted to sling it all day. Contrast that to John Elway, who was totally fine with Terrell Davis taking over and the results speak for themselves. Elway went out with 2 rings, and Marino went out ring-less and was handed a 62-7 loss in his last game.

You don't know your NFL history as well as you think and I know you want to bash Marino because it wouldn't matter who MoP posted, you were going to take aim at it

1983- Rookie season and din't take over until Week 6, still led the league in passing
1984- Magical run, shattered every single season passing record, the previous high for TD passes was George Blanda in 1961 with 36, Marino crushes it with 48
1985- 2nd consecutive AFCC and fell short to the Patriots, only team to beat the '85 Chicago Bears

'86, '87, '88, '89 they didn't even make the Playoffs because the Miami Dolphins had one of the worst defenses ever and Shula wouldn't fire his DC
4 years in his prime and no playoffs, it wasn't because of Dan Marino
Also during this time Mark Duper developed a pretty serious cocaine problem which is reflective in his stats.
Miami also did a very poor job of replacing his aging stars at WR when the 80s closed

Jimmy Johnson never put his actual stamp on Miami or did anything close to what he was able to accomplish in Dallas and Marino was already 35 with a bad achilles
Was Marino going to enjoy handing off to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Irving Spikes, that was the amazing backfield JJ put behind Marino, he never had an Emmitt Smith or Saquon Barkley

@Todem
Am I framing this right? You grew up in the same era of Miami Dolphins football like I did, those mid to late 80s seasons were absolute nightmares.
Marino still had great stats but they were meaningless because Miami could never stop anyone, their defense was atrocious with Eric Kumerow and John Bosa,
Those were miserable 1st round picks
Marino inherited the Killer Bs on defense and they slowly eroded by '85-'86

Hmm I only know this bc I'm from Baltimore, but didn't Marino break the record held by Johnny Unitas? I thought it was 38....

I'm not looking it up b/c this is more fun this way

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

Was a big big Marino Fan. I remember when he came back from achilles injury and he had some CRAZY stat line I think it was the first game of the season like

Let me see if i can remember exactly like 484 or 461 Yards Passing and 3/4 TDs

As far as standard deviation sort of statistical analysis, I'm pretty sure he still is the biggest outlier when compared to his peers/era etc.

He was legit legit one guy I wish won it all

Marino was awesome in the regular season, but if he wonders why he never won a Super Bowl. he need only look in the mirror. His postseason play was pretty mediocre overall (32 TDs and 24 INTs in 18 playoff games), and he was too up his own backside with wanting to throw all day. Look at how he and Jimmy Johnson butted heads late in his career because Marino didn't want a running game; he still wanted to sling it all day. Contrast that to John Elway, who was totally fine with Terrell Davis taking over and the results speak for themselves. Elway went out with 2 rings, and Marino went out ring-less and was handed a 62-7 loss in his last game.

You don't know your NFL history as well as you think and I know you want to bash Marino because it wouldn't matter who MoP posted, you were going to take aim at it

1983- Rookie season and din't take over until Week 6, still led the league in passing
1984- Magical run, shattered every single season passing record, the previous high for TD passes was George Blanda in 1961 with 36, Marino crushes it with 48
1985- 2nd consecutive AFCC and fell short to the Patriots, only team to beat the '85 Chicago Bears

'86, '87, '88, '89 they didn't even make the Playoffs because the Miami Dolphins had one of the worst defenses ever and Shula wouldn't fire his DC
4 years in his prime and no playoffs, it wasn't because of Dan Marino
Also during this time Mark Duper developed a pretty serious cocaine problem which is reflective in his stats.
Miami also did a very poor job of replacing his aging stars at WR when the 80s closed

Jimmy Johnson never put his actual stamp on Miami or did anything close to what he was able to accomplish in Dallas and Marino was already 35 with a bad achilles
Was Marino going to enjoy handing off to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Irving Spikes, that was the amazing backfield JJ put behind Marino, he never had an Emmitt Smith or Saquon Barkley

@Todem
Am I framing this right? You grew up in the same era of Miami Dolphins football like I did, those mid to late 80s seasons were absolute nightmares.
Marino still had great stats but they were meaningless because Miami could never stop anyone, their defense was atrocious with Eric Kumerow and John Bosa,
Those were miserable 1st round picks
Marino inherited the Killer Bs on defense and they slowly eroded by '85-'86

Hmm I only know this bc I'm from Baltimore, but didn't Marino break the record held by Johnny Unitas? I thought it was 38....

I'm not looking it up b/c this is more fun this way

Johnny U threw 32 TDs in '59 at the age of 26

Johnny Unitas Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Johnny Unitas. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[Terpman22]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

Was a big big Marino Fan. I remember when he came back from achilles injury and he had some CRAZY stat line I think it was the first game of the season like

Let me see if i can remember exactly like 484 or 461 Yards Passing and 3/4 TDs

As far as standard deviation sort of statistical analysis, I'm pretty sure he still is the biggest outlier when compared to his peers/era etc.

He was legit legit one guy I wish won it all

Marino was awesome in the regular season, but if he wonders why he never won a Super Bowl. he need only look in the mirror. His postseason play was pretty mediocre overall (32 TDs and 24 INTs in 18 playoff games), and he was too up his own backside with wanting to throw all day. Look at how he and Jimmy Johnson butted heads late in his career because Marino didn't want a running game; he still wanted to sling it all day. Contrast that to John Elway, who was totally fine with Terrell Davis taking over and the results speak for themselves. Elway went out with 2 rings, and Marino went out ring-less and was handed a 62-7 loss in his last game.

You don't know your NFL history as well as you think and I know you want to bash Marino because it wouldn't matter who MoP posted, you were going to take aim at it

1983- Rookie season and din't take over until Week 6, still led the league in passing
1984- Magical run, shattered every single season passing record, the previous high for TD passes was George Blanda in 1961 with 36, Marino crushes it with 48
1985- 2nd consecutive AFCC and fell short to the Patriots, only team to beat the '85 Chicago Bears

'86, '87, '88, '89 they didn't even make the Playoffs because the Miami Dolphins had one of the worst defenses ever and Shula wouldn't fire his DC
4 years in his prime and no playoffs, it wasn't because of Dan Marino
Also during this time Mark Duper developed a pretty serious cocaine problem which is reflective in his stats.
Miami also did a very poor job of replacing his aging stars at WR when the 80s closed

Jimmy Johnson never put his actual stamp on Miami or did anything close to what he was able to accomplish in Dallas and Marino was already 35 with a bad achilles
Was Marino going to enjoy handing off to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Irving Spikes, that was the amazing backfield JJ put behind Marino, he never had an Emmitt Smith or Saquon Barkley

@Todem
Am I framing this right? You grew up in the same era of Miami Dolphins football like I did, those mid to late 80s seasons were absolute nightmares.
Marino still had great stats but they were meaningless because Miami could never stop anyone, their defense was atrocious with Eric Kumerow and John Bosa,
Those were miserable 1st round picks
Marino inherited the Killer Bs on defense and they slowly eroded by '85-'86

Hmm I only know this bc I'm from Baltimore, but didn't Marino break the record held by Johnny Unitas? I thought it was 38....

I'm not looking it up b/c this is more fun this way

Johnny U threw 32 TDs in '59 at the age of 26

Johnny Unitas Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Johnny Unitas. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Is funny b/c its "OLD" but Unitas is barely mentioned anymore it seems with the great.

Probably b/c he only had one "Super Bowl" Title b/c ya know NFL titles don't mean a damn thing amirite?

 

[-OZ-]

No.
Montana didn't win a Super Bowl with Kansas City.
The SF team around Montana was stacked.

This is a fair argument for Brady being better than Montana.
BB failing elsewhere adds to the argument.

 

[Terpman22]

No.
Montana didn't win a Super Bowl with Kansas City.
The SF team around Montana was stacked.

This is a fair argument for Brady being better than Montana.
BB failing elsewhere adds to the argument.

I'm not sure though if this is a for or against a "Is wins a QB stat" debate though

Seems like its a "FOR"

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

Was a big big Marino Fan. I remember when he came back from achilles injury and he had some CRAZY stat line I think it was the first game of the season like

Let me see if i can remember exactly like 484 or 461 Yards Passing and 3/4 TDs

As far as standard deviation sort of statistical analysis, I'm pretty sure he still is the biggest outlier when compared to his peers/era etc.

He was legit legit one guy I wish won it all

Marino was awesome in the regular season, but if he wonders why he never won a Super Bowl. he need only look in the mirror. His postseason play was pretty mediocre overall (32 TDs and 24 INTs in 18 playoff games), and he was too up his own backside with wanting to throw all day. Look at how he and Jimmy Johnson butted heads late in his career because Marino didn't want a running game; he still wanted to sling it all day. Contrast that to John Elway, who was totally fine with Terrell Davis taking over and the results speak for themselves. Elway went out with 2 rings, and Marino went out ring-less and was handed a 62-7 loss in his last game.

You don't know your NFL history as well as you think and I know you want to bash Marino because it wouldn't matter who MoP posted, you were going to take aim at it

1983- Rookie season and din't take over until Week 6, still led the league in passing
1984- Magical run, shattered every single season passing record, the previous high for TD passes was George Blanda in 1961 with 36, Marino crushes it with 48
1985- 2nd consecutive AFCC and fell short to the Patriots, only team to beat the '85 Chicago Bears

'86, '87, '88, '89 they didn't even make the Playoffs because the Miami Dolphins had one of the worst defenses ever and Shula wouldn't fire his DC
4 years in his prime and no playoffs, it wasn't because of Dan Marino
Also during this time Mark Duper developed a pretty serious cocaine problem which is reflective in his stats.
Miami also did a very poor job of replacing his aging stars at WR when the 80s closed

Jimmy Johnson never put his actual stamp on Miami or did anything close to what he was able to accomplish in Dallas and Marino was already 35 with a bad achilles
Was Marino going to enjoy handing off to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Irving Spikes, that was the amazing backfield JJ put behind Marino, he never had an Emmitt Smith or Saquon Barkley

@Todem
Am I framing this right? You grew up in the same era of Miami Dolphins football like I did, those mid to late 80s seasons were absolute nightmares.
Marino still had great stats but they were meaningless because Miami could never stop anyone, their defense was atrocious with Eric Kumerow and John Bosa,
Those were miserable 1st round picks
Marino inherited the Killer Bs on defense and they slowly eroded by '85-'86

Hmm I only know this bc I'm from Baltimore, but didn't Marino break the record held by Johnny Unitas? I thought it was 38....

I'm not looking it up b/c this is more fun this way

Johnny U threw 32 TDs in '59 at the age of 26

Johnny Unitas Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Johnny Unitas. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Is funny b/c its "OLD" but Unitas is barely mentioned anymore it seems with the great.

Probably b/c he only had one "Super Bowl" Title b/c ya know NFL titles don't mean a damn thing amirite?

Unitas helped evolve the game, probably the greatest QB of his era, he was Marino before Marino arrived
In some way I would say he was superior to Marino, it's not all raw stats

-I got the pleasure of meeting Bob Keuchenberg and that led to several lunches together, we both use to frequent same bar/grille down near Ft Laud
Keuch only played with Marino in '83 but he was a starter on the OL for the Super Bowls and of course he was close to Bob Griese
I got to hear some pretty interesting takes/stories from his time with Marino in '83-'84, Keuch wasn't real fond of him

When I lived in SoCal I ran into Roy Foster on the poker tables. Roy was a starting guard '83-'90 w/Phins and his recollection and stories about Dan were much different and very positive
Keuch was old school and I think he resented Dan a little bit, Marino was one of the first QBs to ever be given the authority to change the play call at the line of scrimmage
Shula gave him that freedom just about from the time training camp broke his rookie season
The reason he and JJ didn't always get along is because JJ did not want those plays changed but Marino still would do it from time to time

 

[-OZ-]

No.
Montana didn't win a Super Bowl with Kansas City.
The SF team around Montana was stacked.

This is a fair argument for Brady being better than Montana.
BB failing elsewhere adds to the argument.

I'm not sure though if this is a for or against a "Is wins a QB stat" debate though

Seems like its a "FOR"

Like I’ve been saying a lot today, “it depends”.
It’s certainly a plus when you go to another team and win a Super Bowl when the team had a losing record the previous year.
Imagine if Matt Stafford left LA and took the dolphins or colts to the championship this year.
But also, mcvay struggles and leaves for college, just to get destroyed.

 

[Terpman22]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

Was a big big Marino Fan. I remember when he came back from achilles injury and he had some CRAZY stat line I think it was the first game of the season like

Let me see if i can remember exactly like 484 or 461 Yards Passing and 3/4 TDs

As far as standard deviation sort of statistical analysis, I'm pretty sure he still is the biggest outlier when compared to his peers/era etc.

He was legit legit one guy I wish won it all

Marino was awesome in the regular season, but if he wonders why he never won a Super Bowl. he need only look in the mirror. His postseason play was pretty mediocre overall (32 TDs and 24 INTs in 18 playoff games), and he was too up his own backside with wanting to throw all day. Look at how he and Jimmy Johnson butted heads late in his career because Marino didn't want a running game; he still wanted to sling it all day. Contrast that to John Elway, who was totally fine with Terrell Davis taking over and the results speak for themselves. Elway went out with 2 rings, and Marino went out ring-less and was handed a 62-7 loss in his last game.

You don't know your NFL history as well as you think and I know you want to bash Marino because it wouldn't matter who MoP posted, you were going to take aim at it

1983- Rookie season and din't take over until Week 6, still led the league in passing
1984- Magical run, shattered every single season passing record, the previous high for TD passes was George Blanda in 1961 with 36, Marino crushes it with 48
1985- 2nd consecutive AFCC and fell short to the Patriots, only team to beat the '85 Chicago Bears

'86, '87, '88, '89 they didn't even make the Playoffs because the Miami Dolphins had one of the worst defenses ever and Shula wouldn't fire his DC
4 years in his prime and no playoffs, it wasn't because of Dan Marino
Also during this time Mark Duper developed a pretty serious cocaine problem which is reflective in his stats.
Miami also did a very poor job of replacing his aging stars at WR when the 80s closed

Jimmy Johnson never put his actual stamp on Miami or did anything close to what he was able to accomplish in Dallas and Marino was already 35 with a bad achilles
Was Marino going to enjoy handing off to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Irving Spikes, that was the amazing backfield JJ put behind Marino, he never had an Emmitt Smith or Saquon Barkley

@Todem
Am I framing this right? You grew up in the same era of Miami Dolphins football like I did, those mid to late 80s seasons were absolute nightmares.
Marino still had great stats but they were meaningless because Miami could never stop anyone, their defense was atrocious with Eric Kumerow and John Bosa,
Those were miserable 1st round picks
Marino inherited the Killer Bs on defense and they slowly eroded by '85-'86

Hmm I only know this bc I'm from Baltimore, but didn't Marino break the record held by Johnny Unitas? I thought it was 38....

I'm not looking it up b/c this is more fun this way

Johnny U threw 32 TDs in '59 at the age of 26

Johnny Unitas Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Johnny Unitas. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

Is funny b/c its "OLD" but Unitas is barely mentioned anymore it seems with the great.

Probably b/c he only had one "Super Bowl" Title b/c ya know NFL titles don't mean a damn thing amirite?

Unitas helped evolve the game, probably the greatest QB of his era, he was Marino before Marino arrived
In some way I would say he was superior to Marino, it's not all raw stats

-I got the pleasure of meeting Bob Keuchenberg and that led to several lunches together, we both use to frequent same bar/grille down near Ft Laud
Keuch only played with Marino in '83 but he was a starter on the OL for the Super Bowls and of course he was close to Bob Griese
I got to hear some pretty interesting takes/stories from his time with Marino in '83-'84, Keuch wasn't real fond of him

When I lived in SoCal I ran into Roy Foster on the poker tables. Roy was a starting guard '83-'90 w/Phins and his recollection and stories about Dan were much different and very positive
Keuch was old school and I think he resented Dan a little bit, Marino was one of the first QBs to ever be given the authority to change the play call at the line of scrimmage
Shula gave him that freedom just about from the time training camp broke his rookie season
The reason he and JJ didn't always get along is because JJ did not want those plays changed but Marino still would do it from time to time

This is just such great info you're providing here MOP

 

[Ghost Rider]

Marino had the quickest release of any QB and the way he threw the football was designed to go down the field
He destroyed defenses for fun when he burst on the scene.

Marino was taught by his father to throw the ball in one complete motion so the ball would come UP and OUT even when he was going to take a big hit in the pocket
There's not a single wasted part of Marino's throwing motion and he was one of the very few QBs that was actually intimidating to other players
I remember when Woodley went to the bench and you first saw Marino, he looked a lot bigger than any previous Miami QB

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Quick video basically saying the same thing I just did

Was a big big Marino Fan. I remember when he came back from achilles injury and he had some CRAZY stat line I think it was the first game of the season like

Let me see if i can remember exactly like 484 or 461 Yards Passing and 3/4 TDs

As far as standard deviation sort of statistical analysis, I'm pretty sure he still is the biggest outlier when compared to his peers/era etc.

He was legit legit one guy I wish won it all

Marino was awesome in the regular season, but if he wonders why he never won a Super Bowl. he need only look in the mirror. His postseason play was pretty mediocre overall (32 TDs and 24 INTs in 18 playoff games), and he was too up his own backside with wanting to throw all day. Look at how he and Jimmy Johnson butted heads late in his career because Marino didn't want a running game; he still wanted to sling it all day. Contrast that to John Elway, who was totally fine with Terrell Davis taking over and the results speak for themselves. Elway went out with 2 rings, and Marino went out ring-less and was handed a 62-7 loss in his last game.

You don't know your NFL history as well as you think and I know you want to bash Marino because it wouldn't matter who MoP posted, you were going to take aim at it

1983- Rookie season and din't take over until Week 6, still led the league in passing
1984- Magical run, shattered every single season passing record, the previous high for TD passes was George Blanda in 1961 with 36, Marino crushes it with 48
1985- 2nd consecutive AFCC and fell short to the Patriots, only team to beat the '85 Chicago Bears

'86, '87, '88, '89 they didn't even make the Playoffs because the Miami Dolphins had one of the worst defenses ever and Shula wouldn't fire his DC
4 years in his prime and no playoffs, it wasn't because of Dan Marino
Also during this time Mark Duper developed a pretty serious cocaine problem which is reflective in his stats.
Miami also did a very poor job of replacing his aging stars at WR when the 80s closed

Jimmy Johnson never put his actual stamp on Miami or did anything close to what he was able to accomplish in Dallas and Marino was already 35 with a bad achilles
Was Marino going to enjoy handing off to Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Irving Spikes, that was the amazing backfield JJ put behind Marino, he never had an Emmitt Smith or Saquon Barkley

@Todem
Am I framing this right? You grew up in the same era of Miami Dolphins football like I did, those mid to late 80s seasons were absolute nightmares.
Marino still had great stats but they were meaningless because Miami could never stop anyone, their defense was atrocious with Eric Kumerow and John Bosa,
Those were miserable 1st round picks
Marino inherited the Killer Bs on defense and they slowly eroded by '85-'86

First off, your first sentence was your classic narcissism two-fold, 1) thinking everything is about you, and 2) still referring to yourself in the 3rd person.

Second, my knowledge of his history is just fine. I said he was awesome in the regular season (accurate) and mediocre in the postseason (accurate).

If you want to take the "it was everyone's fault but Marino's that he didn't win a Super Bowl," have at it. I actually think Marino has become a bit underrated in NFL history due to the "count the rings" culture that is so dominant now, but Marino still has to own not getting one. He spent his entire career with TWO Hall of Fame coaches, ones who won four Super Bowls (two each) with other QBS, yet neither could do it with Marino.

 

[N Zone]

No.
Montana didn't win a Super Bowl with Kansas City.
The SF team around Montana was stacked.

You mean the last 2 years of his career after his back was jacked up/the reason SF got rid of him?

And still he got them to a conference title game for the first time in like 20+ years but they met a much younger/better team in the Buffalo Bills.

Isn't the point I made still correct? If Montana had stayed with SF he would have won a 5th Super Bowl, because they were stacked.

 

[N Zone]

Also Tom Brady, Peyton Manning won the Super Bowl at an older age, as did Elway (twice).

 

[N Zone]

Why is Marino celebrated as great and in the HOF, but no one talks about Bledsoe or Vinny Testaverde being deserving based on their outstanding statistics? Just asking, I don't have an opinion on that.

 

[Terpman22]

Why is Marino celebrated as great and in the HOF, but no one talks about Bledsoe or Vinny Testaverde being deserving based on their outstanding statistics? Just asking, I don't have an opinion on that.

Journeyman QB - 7 teams
Never won anything
56% completion %
Basically a 1:1 Td:INT ratio