Assani's Poker Thread (2 Viewers)

[Voice Of Reason]

Hand 2, why are you worried about betting too big on a dry board?

Vs weak players, I'd think that betting pot or slightly over (cause live players don't understand pot size) is the best plan. I'd think most players calling ranges are inelastic on such a board, they are calling with OESDs and TP regardless of your sizing within reason. Perhaps pot would get them to fold gutters, bare overs, and PP between 7-J, but I'd expect them to fold most of those for 3/4's pot as well. And exception would be that you might get peeled by AK because it is such a good hand preflop for a pot size flop bet.

 

[bostonfred]

Hand 2 - I think you bet too much to get action from a ten here - even the biggest fish is going to be thinking that 1100 is too expensive a price for a hand they're hoping is a chop pot. Since you said he was a fish, I feel like a river bet of 550 a little better, planning to fold if he shoves. When you make it the same size bet you did on the turn, it just looks so fishy - like you're a little scared, because your hand didn't improve with that queen, but you're trying to get value for your boat or even get him to fold his ten. It also gives you a chance to get away from a river shove. It's going to be really hard to reraise all in with a hand you can beat.

I don't think he was calling for a chop....I think he was trying to put me on AK or a hand like 99 and call down, as he was a typical fish who would do whatever it takes to convince himself to call. For example, he earlier got it all in for $1500+ with 8T on a 348 board. His opponent had AA, but the turn/river came T-T and he doubled up with his full house.And I'm not so sure that I agree that betting another $550 looks "fishy." I actually think it looks very much like a "please call" type of bet. I wanted to try to continue to make him think I was trying to bluff him off the best hand. I had made up my mind to call if he check/raised, but man that would've been a strange spot(would definitely take any thoughts on this).

Either I don't know what you mean when you say he's a fish, or I don't think you remember how fish think. Assuming it's me, which it probably is, can you help me understand what you mean when you say he's a fish? What kind of bad habits does he have? Are they similar to the ones shown by the pretty girl in hand one?

 

[fasteddie_21]

Read my post, fred. I think it pretty much spells it out.

 

[bostonfred]

Hand 2 - I think you bet too much to get action from a ten here - even the biggest fish is going to be thinking that 1100 is too expensive a price for a hand they're hoping is a chop pot. Since you said he was a fish, I feel like a river bet of 550 a little better, planning to fold if he shoves. When you make it the same size bet you did on the turn, it just looks so fishy - like you're a little scared, because your hand didn't improve with that queen, but you're trying to get value for your boat or even get him to fold his ten. It also gives you a chance to get away from a river shove. It's going to be really hard to reraise all in with a hand you can beat.

This has merit, but at the same time, I think that this comes down to which has more EV. I mean, say the $550 get paid off 80% and the $1200 gets a crying call say 20%, it all comes down to which makes the most, long term.Also, another thing to think about is the Zeebo theorem which says that the vast majority of people will never, ever, fold a full house. It doesn't matter if it's a 1/2 PSB, a full PSB, or a rediculous overbet. Most people just don't fold them. The reason, obviously, is that they only think about hands in their absolute value, not their relative value (ie. "I has full house. That is super strong hand. I call!).

Now, I'm not saying that the $550 would be wrong, but I think that you have to take into account all the above things and decide which you (Assani) think has the most value, long-term. I know that you know this, bf, but just spelling out my thinking here as well.

Good discussion

Thanks fe I didn't mean to skip over your post. - I know they were arbitrary, but the numbers you gave suggest that 550 is better than 1200. Regardless, I do think that 550 gets paid off more than twice as often as 1200, which is why I think it's a better line. I think a ten, queen, and once in a rare while, underpairs to the ten call the 550. I think the 1200 only rarely gets called by a ten and almost never by 99 or less.

- I think the Zeebo theorem is stronger when there is one board pair or even two pair on the board than when there's trips on the board.

- I think the 550 barrier is an important psychological one, since he already called that size bet. You might be able to go a little higher relative to the last bet, but I don't think most fish would see 1200 as being the same ratio to the pot. I think they see it as going from a callable three digit bet to a huge four digit bet.

- I think the reason the villain donkbet 50 was as a blocking bet, and he's basically telling you, I'll call a small bet but I'm hoping to see this cheaply.

- I think it's unlikely that he's tricky enough to donk 50 then raise all in as a move. He might imagine a tell or somehow get the bright idea to donk/raise with a hand he legitimately, but incorrectly, thinks is ahead, like Qx or KK, but I just don't see him doing it with 99, AK or AT.

- I think you get raised to less than your stack by a more callable range (including TT555, QQ555, KK555, and AA555, which offset the QQQ55, TTT55, 5555x hands you're afraid of) when you bet 550. And TT555 is going to be pretty rare.

- Not only does 1200 gets called by a tighter range, I think it gets raised by a range that generally has Assani crushed. I don't see a fish raising a 1200 bet with any good news except kings or aces - or MAYBE a queen once in a blue moon - yet Assani was willing to call if raised. So I think it's more profitable for Assani to call a reraise of his 550 bet than a reraise of his 1200 bet.

 

[Assani Fisher]

I just can't believe someone with your experience can't see why the play was not a good. You are talking your hand was well disguised. You couldn't be more right. With the ten and jack of d on the board you can get called thin by him putting you on a draw. Not only did you miss money in the hand, you made cheap for him to out draw you. If that is good poker then I'll take my chances being a bad player.

Dude, it seems like 1/2 of the content of your posts are just meaningless hyperbolic statements such as these:

I just can't believe someone with your experience can't see why the play was not a good.

If that is good poker then I'll take my chances being a bad player.

. If you are worried when flopping sets find another profession, seriously

I've shown throughout this thread that I'm more than willing to listen to advice, admit I made mistakes, and so on. You don't need to make these types of statements in order to get me to listen. If anything, they just detract from your posts and cause unnecessary agitation. Moreover, they're borderline insulting and rude. As for the actual advice within your post....

With the ten and jack of d on the board you can get called thin by him putting you on a draw

I was last to act on the flop and bet 3/4 pot. I would never do this with a draw unless it was a huge combo draw. Villain has played with me before and most likely knows this(you continue to ignore the familiarity between villain and myself in your analysis!!!!). So no, I do not think I am going to get paid off often by him thinking that I was on a draw.

Not only did you miss money in the hand

This is complete and total speculation on your part. It is easily possible that if I had raised the turn he would've folded. Moreover, you are still ignoring the possibility that he is ahead of me on the turn. If he 3 bets the turn, I have to fold, costing me the entire pot(and costing me all of the money I put in with that turn raise).

You made cheap for him to out draw you

I bet 3/4 pot on the flop. Thats not cheap. In fact, outside of a huge combo draw, he most definitely is not getting a correct price to call with a draw here, especially when you consider that I have a full house re-draw and I have position which can help me save me if he hits. On the turn, I was obviously going to bet if he had checked. Even if you want to view his $190 bet of something as a blocking bet, I wasn't going to bet all that much more than $190 if he had checked.

I have already admitted that I think its very close between flatting the turn and raising...I have no problem with someone taking the line of raising the turn. And obviously there are no draws left once the river hits....so how exactly did I "make it cheap for him to draw out"?

I've just re-read both of your posts regarding this hand, and its pretty much all meaningless hyperbolic statements or overly generalized statements that don't account for all of the information present in this hand.

 

[Assani Fisher]

$5/10 at the Wynn last night. I am deep and have my opponents covered in all of the hands.

Hand #1

Villian is a a pretty girl who I haven't played with before. Only had a few hands at the table, so not sure what to think yet. She can shuffle and stack chips well, so shes somewhat experienced. She also has shown proper preflop aggression by raising in position preflop when she plays hands. She started the hand with around $1800.

I had 59os in BB, she is SB. Guy to my left straddles for $20. MP calls $20, SB completes, I complete, straddler checks. 4 to flop, $80 in pot.

Flop is 67J with 2 hearts. Checked around.

Turn is an 8 non-heart, but there are now 2 diamonds out there in addition to the 2 hearts. She checks, I bet $60, straddler folds, MP calls, she mini-raises to $120. Whats your move?

Hand #1(part 2)

I raised it $200 more. MP folded, she thought for a few seconds but fairly quickly called. River is a 7 of diamonds, so the board is now 6778J with 3 diamonds. She checks, your move.

Results:

When I posted these hands, I thought this one was far and away the most interesting, and I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been any discussion here. Should I take that to mean everyone likes my line?

 

[Assani Fisher]

Hand 2 - I think you bet too much to get action from a ten here - even the biggest fish is going to be thinking that 1100 is too expensive a price for a hand they're hoping is a chop pot. Since you said he was a fish, I feel like a river bet of 550 a little better, planning to fold if he shoves. When you make it the same size bet you did on the turn, it just looks so fishy - like you're a little scared, because your hand didn't improve with that queen, but you're trying to get value for your boat or even get him to fold his ten. It also gives you a chance to get away from a river shove. It's going to be really hard to reraise all in with a hand you can beat.

This has merit, but at the same time, I think that this comes down to which has more EV. I mean, say the $550 get paid off 80% and the $1200 gets a crying call say 20%, it all comes down to which makes the most, long term.Also, another thing to think about is the Zeebo theorem which says that the vast majority of people will never, ever, fold a full house. It doesn't matter if it's a 1/2 PSB, a full PSB, or a rediculous overbet. Most people just don't fold them. The reason, obviously, is that they only think about hands in their absolute value, not their relative value (ie. "I has full house. That is super strong hand. I call!).

Now, I'm not saying that the $550 would be wrong, but I think that you have to take into account all the above things and decide which you (Assani) think has the most value, long-term. I know that you know this, bf, but just spelling out my thinking here as well.

Good discussion

Thanks fe I didn't mean to skip over your post. - I know they were arbitrary, but the numbers you gave suggest that 550 is better than 1200. Regardless, I do think that 550 gets paid off more than twice as often as 1200, which is why I think it's a better line. I think a ten, queen, and once in a rare while, underpairs to the ten call the 550. I think the 1200 only rarely gets called by a ten and almost never by 99 or less.

- I think the Zeebo theorem is stronger when there is one board pair or even two pair on the board than when there's trips on the board.

- I think the 550 barrier is an important psychological one, since he already called that size bet. You might be able to go a little higher relative to the last bet, but I don't think most fish would see 1200 as being the same ratio to the pot. I think they see it as going from a callable three digit bet to a huge four digit bet.

- I think the reason the villain donkbet 50 was as a blocking bet, and he's basically telling you, I'll call a small bet but I'm hoping to see this cheaply.

- I think it's unlikely that he's tricky enough to donk 50 then raise all in as a move. He might imagine a tell or somehow get the bright idea to donk/raise with a hand he legitimately, but incorrectly, thinks is ahead, like Qx or KK, but I just don't see him doing it with 99, AK or AT.

- I think you get raised to less than your stack by a more callable range (including TT555, QQ555, KK555, and AA555, which offset the QQQ55, TTT55, 5555x hands you're afraid of) when you bet 550. And TT555 is going to be pretty rare.

- Not only does 1200 gets called by a tighter range, I think it gets raised by a range that generally has Assani crushed. I don't see a fish raising a 1200 bet with any good news except kings or aces - or MAYBE a queen once in a blue moon - yet Assani was willing to call if raised. So I think it's more profitable for Assani to call a reraise of his 550 bet than a reraise of his 1200 bet.

Some solid points here. I particularly agree with your analysis of his small blocking bet indicating that he would call a small bet but nothing as large as $1200. However, I keep going back to the issue of him being a typical fish who loves to talk himself into calling. By calling the flop/turn with just a ten, he is pretty much saying that he doesn't believe me that I have a hand(he thinks I whiffed with my AK or something similar). I, therefore, want to keep up the "illusion" that I'm bluffing and trying to take him off the hand....and betting the exact same amount on the river as I did on the turn doesn't really seem like it would be a bluff. Then again, maybe I'm overthinking things and he simply viewed $1200 as a "big bet" and would've been willing to call another "small bet".

 

[Assani Fisher]

I didn't play yesterday, but I played a short 3 hour session on Saturday night. I keep running well. Was quickly up $1300 within an hour, but lost a bit of it back. Ended up +$600 for the session...have now ran $2000 up to $12000 in the 5 or 6 sessions since I came back to playing live....poker is so much more fun when you're running well! Not a ton of interesting hands except for this one....

Villain is a typical tight live player....not all that good, makes some very clear mistakes, but hes tight enough that I don't really love having him at the table either. Hes probably a break even player at live $5/10. I haven't played with him before this session though, so I'm basing all of this off of only a short while of play alongside him.

I'm on button with 35 of clubs. 3 limpers ahead of me, I decide to limp as well. SB completes, BB checks. 6 to the flop.

Flop comes 47J with 2 clubs, giving me a flush draw and a gutshot. SB, BB, and first limper check. Villain bets full pot of $60, next limper calls, its on me. Whats your move here?

I called. SB called, BB folded, first limper folded. So now theres 4 players still in the hand and theres $300 in the pot.

Turn is a 2 of clubs(note: the four is a not one of the clubs, so I do not have a straight flush draw). All 3 players check to me. I bet $180(is this too small considering that I hate any club coming on the river? I probably would've bet more if I wasn't in position, but being in position makes my river play a lot easier so I don't mind keeping it a bit cheaper).

SB folded, villain mini-raises to $360, LP folds. Villain has about $900 left in his stack now. Whats your move?

 

[hooter311]

I didn't play yesterday, but I played a short 3 hour session on Saturday night. I keep running well. Was quickly up $1300 within an hour, but lost a bit of it back. Ended up +$600 for the session...have now ran $2000 up to $12000 in the 5 or 6 sessions since I came back to playing live....poker is so much more fun when you're running well! Not a ton of interesting hands except for this one....Villain is a typical tight live player....not all that good, makes some very clear mistakes, but hes tight enough that I don't really love having him at the table either. Hes probably a break even player at live $5/10. I haven't played with him before this session though, so I'm basing all of this off of only a short while of play alongside him. I'm on button with 35 of clubs. 3 limpers ahead of me, I decide to limp as well. SB completes, BB checks. 6 to the flop.Flop comes 47J with 2 clubs, giving me a flush draw and a gutshot. SB, BB, and first limper check. Villain bets full pot of $60, next limper calls, its on me. Whats your move here?I called. SB called, BB folded, first limper folded. So now theres 4 players still in the hand and theres $300 in the pot.Turn is a 2 of clubs(note: the four is a not one of the clubs, so I do not have a straight flush draw). All 3 players check to me. I bet $180(is this too small considering that I hate any club coming on the river? I probably would've bet more if I wasn't in position, but being in position makes my river play a lot easier so I don't mind keeping it a bit cheaper).SB folded, villain mini-raises to $360, LP folds. Villain has about $900 left in his stack now. Whats your move?

Gotta fold. I don't think a player like you're describing would mini-raise with a naked ace bluff, looks more like a bet to induce action and get you to come back over the top.

 

[shut it down]

Are you worried at all that within a couple years of choosing this as your profession, you're having a hard time finding enjoyment in said profession?

 

[Assani Fisher]

Are you worried at all that within a couple years of choosing this as your profession, you're having a hard time finding enjoyment in said profession?

Yes. I hope to save up and invest enough in the next few years so that I won't have to still be grinding it out. I'm 27 years old now...if I'm still grinding it out at $5/10 games when I'm 30 then I'll probably quit poker as a full time job and just do it on the side(I'd love to get into basketball coaching/scouting for example, and I have a few connections there having played college ball and having worked with my buddy who is now employed by the Toronto Raptors). But hopefully I'll do well within the next few years and be able to make substantial income with safe investments while I play high stakes($25/50+) poker on the side whenever I feel like it.But with that said, I've done this since I graduated college and I still do enjoy many aspects of it.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

$5/10 at the Wynn last night. I am deep and have my opponents covered in all of the hands.

Hand #1

Villian is a a pretty girl who I haven't played with before. Only had a few hands at the table, so not sure what to think yet. She can shuffle and stack chips well, so shes somewhat experienced. She also has shown proper preflop aggression by raising in position preflop when she plays hands. She started the hand with around $1800.

I had 59os in BB, she is SB. Guy to my left straddles for $20. MP calls $20, SB completes, I complete, straddler checks. 4 to flop, $80 in pot.

Flop is 67J with 2 hearts. Checked around.

Turn is an 8 non-heart, but there are now 2 diamonds out there in addition to the 2 hearts. She checks, I bet $60, straddler folds, MP calls, she mini-raises to $120. Whats your move?

Hand #1(part 2)

I raised it $200 more. MP folded, she thought for a few seconds but fairly quickly called. River is a 7 of diamonds, so the board is now 6778J with 3 diamonds. She checks, your move.

Results:

When I posted these hands, I thought this one was far and away the most interesting, and I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been any discussion here. Should I take that to mean everyone likes my line?

This is the most interesting, most the river play, but it is hard to assess optimum value bet ranges vs someone who all we know is that she can shuffle chips and does have any obvious preflop leaks (over a small sample.)I like the turn 3bet because I find most live randoms to be scared of being drawn out on, especially by flushes for this raise to be made with T9. And even if she does, I'd expect a her to 4bet shove with it, and we can fold.

3betting the turn allows us to get value from worse and allows us to play the river perfectly in most spots. The 7d river is a terrible card and villain is essentially bluffcatching the river here, as most 5-10 players value bet too thinly in spots like this. I have no idea if villain is capable of thinking she is bluffcatching or if she just think "lol 45, Jx, J8, CALL!."

**Edit: Completely butchered the last paragraph, see Post #8784**

 

[spOOfy]

Glad to see this thread back in action. I'll try to comment later when I have some time.

 

[prefontaine]

The 7d river is a terrible card and villain is essentially bluffcatching the river here, as most 5-10 players value bet too thinly in spots like this.

I'm struggling with what you mistyped here. Can you clarify what you are trying to say bc, as written, it is clearly contradictory.

 

[bostonfred]

The 7d river is a terrible card and villain is essentially bluffcatching the river here, as most 5-10 players value bet too thinly in spots like this.

I'm struggling with what you mistyped here. Can you clarify what you are trying to say bc, as written, it is clearly contradictory.

I wasn't exactly sure what he was saying, either. I think we'd all agree that the 7d was a terrible card because it killed his straight in so many ways (putting a flush and full house in play). As written, he seems to be saying that the villain thought it was a terrible card, too, and was bluffcatching with a weaker hand like a smaller straight, two pair, or a big jack. And that they may have been forced to because most 5-10 players will bet that scare card.

 

[prefontaine]

The 7d river is a terrible card and villain is essentially bluffcatching the river here, as most 5-10 players value bet too thinly in spots like this.

I'm struggling with what you mistyped here. Can you clarify what you are trying to say bc, as written, it is clearly contradictory.

I wasn't exactly sure what he was saying, either. I think we'd all agree that the 7d was a terrible card because it killed his straight in so many ways (putting a flush and full house in play). As written, he seems to be saying that the villain thought it was a terrible card, too, and was bluffcatching with a weaker hand like a smaller straight, two pair, or a big jack. And that they may have been forced to because most 5-10 players will bet that scare card.

It is virtually impossible for Assani to have a hand that has no showdown value here.

 

[prefontaine]

And if I get a minute, I'll go into more detail later, but Assani, I'd be particular interested in your thoughts on HER bet sizing in this hand. My first blush is frankly that it is terrible but I'm sure you have thoughts on it.

edit to fix pronouns

 

[Voice Of Reason]

The 7d river is a terrible card and villain is essentially bluffcatching the river here, as most 5-10 players value bet too thinly in spots like this.

I'm struggling with what you mistyped here. Can you clarify what you are trying to say bc, as written, it is clearly contradictory.

What I was thinking was that: The 7d was a terrible card for us because it makes some of villain's inferior hands on the turn better than ours and it narrows the range that she would call on the river.

And (I really should have started another sentence for this statement) because players at 5-10 DO NOT value bet the river thinly, all worse hands that may call us on the river are bluffcatchers. I think most players at that level will check back Assani's hand here**, so if the villain is a solid thinking player (probably not) she will only call the river with worse than our hand if she assumes Assani is bluffing.

**if they would bet 59 for value, that and 45 are the absolute bottom of their valuebetting range.**

What it typed was completely nonsensical, sorry for that

 

[prefontaine]

And (I really should have started another sentence for this statement) because players at 5-10 DO NOT value bet the river thinly, all worse hands that may call us on the river are bluffcatchers. I think most players at that level will check back Assani's hand here**, so if the villain is a solid thinking player (probably not) she will only call the river with worse than our hand if she assumes Assani is bluffing.

Yeah, that makes much more sense. She's clearly not very good btw, though it is hard to make too much from one hand. But still I'd quickly adjust to bluffing her less and vbet much, much thinner just based on this one hand where I don't even know what she had.

 

[Zow]

This thread makes me realize I don't know jack about poker. for when i have a few hours.

 

[Assani Fisher]

And if I get a minute, I'll go into more detail later, but Assani, I'd be particular interested in your thoughts on HER bet sizing in this hand. My first blush is frankly that it is terrible but I'm sure you have thoughts on it.edit to fix pronouns

Yes, without a doubt her mini-raise was horrendous. This would be true if I had been her only opponent in her hand, but when the other guy calls on an extremely draw heavy board, then her mini-raise becomes laughably bad.

 

[Assani Fisher]

The 7d river is a terrible card and villain is essentially bluffcatching the river here, as most 5-10 players value bet too thinly in spots like this.

I'm struggling with what you mistyped here. Can you clarify what you are trying to say bc, as written, it is clearly contradictory.

What I was thinking was that: The 7d was a terrible card for us because it makes some of villain's inferior hands on the turn better than ours and it narrows the range that she would call on the river.

And (I really should have started another sentence for this statement) because players at 5-10 DO NOT value bet the river thinly, all worse hands that may call us on the river are bluffcatchers. I think most players at that level will check back Assani's hand here**, so if the villain is a solid thinking player (probably not) she will only call the river with worse than our hand if she assumes Assani is bluffing.

**if they would bet 59 for value, that and 45 are the absolute bottom of their valuebetting range.**

What it typed was completely nonsensical, sorry for that

yea, I agree with this. I think a ton of live $5/10 regulars would miss out on value by checking behind on the river here.

 

[Assani Fisher]

So I may have a new poker home....two nights ago I went to the Wynn, no $5/10 game, so I played $2/5 for a while. Finally a $5/10 game got started after midnight. Ended up winning $30 on the night. Then last night I go to the Wynn again, and no $5/10 game once again. So I left and went to the Venetian where they had 2 $5/10 games running and also an interesting PLO game($1/2 blinds, but the min. bring in was $5, so it was essentially a $5/5 game except that the low blind structure meant that sitting back and playing very tight preflop was far and away the best strategy). I love the Wynn, but I have to go where the games are. I got a deposit box at the Venetian now, so I'll probably start playing at both places regularly.

I played in that PLO game for a while and then moved over to $5/10 NL when my name was called. It was a great game. Tons of action....better than any game I've played at the Wynn since I went back to playing live. Won a big pot early when I had AK, flop came AA4, turn J, river 2...guy called me all the way down(presumably with a weaker ace). Then I lost an even bigger pot with when 33 ran into 45 on a 236 flop(raised preflop too, so the pot quickly got big and I really couldn't have helped doubling the guy up). Then came this pot......

There was a guy at the table who played a hand just about as bad as he possibly could. It was a straddled pot, maybe a limper or two, he limps on the button. Flop comes 7JK with 2 diamonds, checked to him, he checks. Turn is a T. BB bets out, limper flat calls, he raises on button. BB folds, the limper makes an enormous reraise all in(I wasn't in the hand so I don't remember it exactly, but I think it went something like...bet $60, raise to $240, reraise to $2000). The guy calls with KK. Of course the other guy has AQ for the nuts, but a jack comes on the river to win the pot for the horrible player....no clue why he limped on the button preflop(in such a loose game) nor why he checked a draw heavy board. And then when the straight gets there he calls all in. Just horrible.

Anyway, that horrible player is the villain in my big hand. I had 29 in the SB. Villain is in LP. Limped pot, maybe 4 or 5 players see the flop. Flop comes 223 with 2 diamonds. I bet out $40, I get two callers- EP and villain in LP. Turn is another 2 giving me quads. I bet out $110, EP calls, villain mini-raises to $220. I started the hand with about $2400(not that deep since it was my first session at Venetian and I kept most of my money at Wynn) and they both have me covered. Whats your play here and what is your plan for the river depending upon what EP does and what the river card is?

Results:

mytagid = Math.floor( Math.random() * 100 );document.write("

I flat called, EP folded.

River was a 6 of diamonds, putting a straight flush out there.

I bet out $500, he again mini-raised me, I pushed for about $1100 more. He called. I showed, he mucked, I thanked God for putting him at my table.*** SPOILER ALERT! Click this link to display the potential spoiler text in this box. ***");document.close();

Ended up winning $1500 on the night. Will probably be back there again tonight.

 

[shut it down]

How are things on the romantic front in LV? How do you find the people there in general as opposed to "normal" parts of the country? Just curious.

 

[prefontaine]

And if I get a minute, I'll go into more detail later, but Assani, I'd be particular interested in your thoughts on HER bet sizing in this hand. My first blush is frankly that it is terrible but I'm sure you have thoughts on it.edit to fix pronouns

Yes, without a doubt her mini-raise was horrendous. This would be true if I had been her only opponent in her hand, but when the other guy calls on an extremely draw heavy board, then her mini-raise becomes laughably bad.

Yeah, obviously it's bad but was actually pretty curious if it impacted your decision to bet on the end or not (or the bet sizing).

 

[Clifton]

So I may have a new poker home....two nights ago I went to the Wynn, no $5/10 game, so I played $2/5 for a while. Finally a $5/10 game got started after midnight. Ended up winning $30 on the night. Then last night I go to the Wynn again, and no $5/10 game once again. So I left and went to the Venetian where they had 2 $5/10 games running and also an interesting PLO game($1/2 blinds, but the min. bring in was $5, so it was essentially a $5/5 game except that the low blind structure meant that sitting back and playing very tight preflop was far and away the best strategy). I love the Wynn, but I have to go where the games are. I got a deposit box at the Venetian now, so I'll probably start playing at both places regularly.

I played in that PLO game for a while and then moved over to $5/10 NL when my name was called. It was a great game. Tons of action....better than any game I've played at the Wynn since I went back to playing live. Won a big pot early when I had AK, flop came AA4, turn J, river 2...guy called me all the way down(presumably with a weaker ace). Then I lost an even bigger pot with when 33 ran into 45 on a 236 flop(raised preflop too, so the pot quickly got big and I really couldn't have helped doubling the guy up). Then came this pot......

There was a guy at the table who played a hand just about as bad as he possibly could. It was a straddled pot, maybe a limper or two, he limps on the button. Flop comes 7JK with 2 diamonds, checked to him, he checks. Turn is a T. BB bets out, limper flat calls, he raises on button. BB folds, the limper makes an enormous reraise all in(I wasn't in the hand so I don't remember it exactly, but I think it went something like...bet $60, raise to $240, reraise to $2000). The guy calls with KK. Of course the other guy has AQ for the nuts, but a jack comes on the river to win the pot for the horrible player....no clue why he limped on the button preflop(in such a loose game) nor why he checked a draw heavy board. And then when the straight gets there he calls all in. Just horrible.

Anyway, that horrible player is the villain in my big hand. I had 29 in the SB. Villain is in LP. Limped pot, maybe 4 or 5 players see the flop. Flop comes 223 with 2 diamonds. I bet out $40, I get two callers- EP and villain in LP. Turn is another 2 giving me quads. I bet out $110, EP calls, villain mini-raises to $220. I started the hand with about $2400(not that deep since it was my first session at Venetian and I kept most of my money at Wynn) and they both have me covered. Whats your play here and what is your plan for the river depending upon what EP does and what the river card is?

Results:

mytagid = Math.floor( Math.random() * 100 );document.write("

I flat called, EP folded.

River was a 6 of diamonds, putting a straight flush out there.

I bet out $500, he again mini-raised me, I pushed for about $1100 more. He called. I showed, he mucked, I thanked God for putting him at my table.*** SPOILER ALERT! Click this link to display the potential spoiler text in this box. ***");document.close();

Ended up winning $1500 on the night. Will probably be back there again tonight.

I think the Venetian is the best poker room in Vegas. This could not have been your first time playing there?

 

[Voice Of Reason]

If you are betting the turn the turn, I think your bet sizing on the turn is too small. No one ever folds a full house and the pot is about $200. This seems like a great spot to take advantage of the fact that villains probably don't understand pot size and they may think you have a 3 that is looking to "protect" your hand.

The pairs that they hold are probably not big ones so the river is going to bring an overcard to very often killing a lot of your action. So I'd think their turn calling range would not be much bigger than their turn betting range, so I think a turn check raise is a line that I'd take often here. Curious to your thoughts on leading turn vs check-raising.

For the river, if he has 3x, 44. or 55 he's probably checking it back, but I'm curious to what his frequencies are to bet this river with 77+. Again, live players love them some showdowns, so I think leading this river vs check raising it is best.

Two other options that I'd like to hear your thoughts on for the river play is underbetting (like $25 or 50) to induce a spaz or overbetting the river. My guess is live players don't spaz and raise often so underbetting is really bad, and I have no idea how they would react to an overbet/ Vs this villain, I like overbetting because I don't see him raising the river often, but being results oriented, your line was probably better.

 

[shut it down]

Is PLO8 spread in Vegas anywhere? What rooms/stakes?

 

[bostonfred]

Bump. Time to reread this.

 

[bostonfred]

My basic point is this:There are 3 general situations:Hands in which I'm the aggressorHands in which my opponent is the aggressorHands in which I have a monster hand(and it doesn't matter who the aggressor is becasue I'm just trying to maximize my value).The strength of my hands really doesn't matter at all in the first two situations. I could have 2-7os and miss the flop or I could have top pair with an ace kicker. I don't like to play in pots in which my opponent has assumed the role of aggressor...it puts me in a scary situation where I don't know what I should do or how I will react. I don't know which cards are outs for me or if I'm ahead of behind. Big pots are lost this way imho.

Maybe the best post in the thread.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Wrote two new blogs:

May 10, 2010: An Update

Glad that so many people liked my last blog...even got a bunch of love on 2p2! It took me a bit longer than I had hoped, but I finally reached one of my goals today so I figured I'd give a little update/brag: When I wrote my last blog my poker bankroll was down to around $15K; Today I crossed the $100K mark! I was actually at $90,000 two months ago, as the last two months have had quite a few decent sized swings for me. I had a +$10K day today, which brought me to around $105K total.

My biggest problem throughout my poker career has been bankroll management, as I've always loved to play over my head and take reckless shots. I'm proud to say that this entire time, I think I followed perfect bankroll management. I took a few shots here and there, but they were always calculated beforehand and I gave myself a stoploss whenever doing so. For example, once I reached $60K I allowed myself to play live $10/20 NLHE, but I would drop down if I lost $10K or more. Obviously my bankroll requirements for online poker were a tad bit different since I have much more variance playing against tougher online opponents.

Right now I'm mostly playing $5/10, $5/10 deep, and $10/20 PLO8 online. The games don't run all the time, so often I'll just be sitting at the tables waiting for a HU match. I've never refused to take on anyone HU so far, but I'd say that there are maybe 2 or 3 people who I don't exactly enjoy playing. Funny enough, one of them is actually a lower stakes reg who rarely even plays $5/10 or above(and no, I won't say who). I've been having a live downswing, so I'm not playing much live these days and probably won't until the WSOP gets here. If I had to give my best estimates, I'd say that this is how I've built my bankroll over these 8 months:

Online PLO8: +$65,000

Online MTTs: +$25,000(pretty much all due to one nice score two weeks ago)

Live Poker: +$25,000

Side Job as Boiling Oat Runner: $0

Online PLO: -$5000

Sports Betting: -$7500

Put away for living expenses: -$15,000

Immediately after writing the blog, I started out mass multitabling mid stakes PLO8 and NLO8. However, my bad run of luck wasn't changing all that much and I encountered quite a few long breakeven stretches. Playing live was a different story though. I started back up with a few $2/5 sessions and was quickly playing $5/10 again. I ran quite well during this time, probably winning close to $40,000 from September-February. My online luck finally changed too, and I was able to grind out around $10,000 from multitabling PLO8. Near the end of February, I took a trip to Commerce with Rob(BobboFitos) to play live $10/20 and I also started dabbling in the shorthanded online $5/10 PLO8 games. At $10/20 live I haven't ran well at all(although I did win a small amount while at Commerce), but I've been doing quite well at the higher stakes PLO8 games. It definitely has taken me awhile to get used to the swings of pushing small edges in high stakes shorthanded online games though, as in the past I've mostly played live NLHE and smaller stakes online PLO8 both of which have minimal variance for me. I've played a few online MTTs as well, including taking $20K in one a little while ago.

I don't know why I continue to bet on sports. Now that my buddy Keith is working in the NBA and we don't have access to his system, I clearly don't have any discernable edge. I do know quite a bit about NBA and NFL, but whatever slight edge that may give me is negated due to my lack of proper sports betting fundamentals(always shopping for best line, getting overnights, 5 cent or better juice, having immediate access to all big online sites, etc.). I do enjoy the thrill, and as long as I'm not betting too much then its not the biggest deal as long as poker is going well. But it really is just me throwing money away.....hopefully I can stop. Having only boring MLB all summer will certainly help.

As for PLO, I wanted to give it a try because I am jealous of the ability to get constant high stakes action at any time of the day. However, there were simply too many concepts that didn't translate from my PLO8 experience. I have read a few books(Jeff Hwang's probably being the best, but thats much more helpful for soft live games than a tougher online game) and talked with some knowledgeable players, but I just didn't have the dedication to immerse myself in a new game which may or may not end up even being profitable for me. I do think that I have +EV in many live PLO games, so I'll continue to play it live. I've found live PLO/NLHE mix games to be extremely juicy. Plus whenever I play live PLO, it always gives me the opportunity to ask if they want to put PLO8 in the rotation....not successful all that often, but when it is then I always have a huge edge.

For the most part I'm going to continue playing high stakes online PLO8 until the WSOP starts. Once I get to $125K I will start to take some shots at $10/20 deep and $25/50(although both of them barely ever run so it may be moot). I'm sure I'll wander on over to the Rio once the WSOP starts a few times at least. I told myself when I started that when I got to $100K I could take some shots at live $25/50 NLHE(as long as I'd drop back down if I lost $20K), but since I haven't had a ton of success at $10/20 yet I don't feel as if I'm ready. But at least if I ever see a really soft $25/50 game I could feel comfortable playing in it, and that could easily happen at the WSOP. I would like to play in the $1500 PLO8 event and at least one $1500 or $1000 NLHE events. I'd also really like to play in both the $5000 PLO8 event and the $10K NLHE Main Event, but I'd either have to make a ton of money quickly or sell some of my action to do that.

May 12, 2010: Big Day

Had my best cash game session ever last night, winning $43,000 playing HU $10/20 plo8! My opponent was extremely aggro and reckless. He started the session off strong and bullied me quite a bit, as I lost $13,000 in the first 20 or so minutes. But I don't think his strategy worked nearly as well once we became deeper stacked. With 100 BBs he was willing to just fire away and stack off very light, but he didn't adjust as we got deep and it really cost him. Obviously I ran quite well throughout, and that coupled with his aggression and tilt produced my big win. Crazy thing is that I was pretty close to quitting early on when I was down $13,000. If I had lost one or two more big pots I probably would've. I'm not going to reveal my opponent's name, nor will I give a complete hand history, but there were 14 pots of ~$5000 or more which I'll share below. As you can see, the great majority of our big hands came with me having position. That was very much a part of my strategy....I tightened up considerably preflop when in the BB, and I just let him 3 bet like crazy when I had the button.

Note: I posted the hands in my blog, but I can't get them to show up on FBG. So just click the above link to go to my blog if you wish to see them.

This win will now let me play $10/20 deepstacked and $25/50 tables, which is exciting even though those games rarely run. Hopefully my good luck will continue there!

 

[Assani Fisher]

Oh, and I guess I never did post it here, but here was a blog I wrote back in late August. This is what the "update" in my more recent blog is referring to.

August 25, 2009: Thoughts on Running Badly

I haven't written a blog on here in quite a while. Over the past year, I've been going through one of the worst downswings of my poker career, and truthfully its just not as fun to blog when you don't have pleasant things to write about. Its been a combination of many things that contributed to my downswing: I lost a ton of money in backing, I took some shots at higher stakes($25/50, $50/100) games that weren't successful, I displayed poor bankroll management in sports betting(betting up to $5000 per game when I clearly shouldn't be), and quite frankly I've run like complete #### this entire past year.

But I'm not writing this blog to complain, and I'm sure as hell not writing it to gather sympathy. Rather, I want to share with everyone how I deal with running badly because I think it may be my biggest strength as a poker player, and its something I routinely see people do horribly wrong. In addition writing this out will only serve as more motivation for me as I try to right the ship.

I've played professionally for six years now, and over that time I've had quite a few close poker friends. And at one time or another, each of them has run worse than they ever thought imaginable and come to me for advice. I always try to give my best advice, but I feel as if it constantly rings hollow when someone who is not running poorly tries to counsel someone who is. The person who is running poorly begins to buy into the absurd notion that the one giving the advice has never experienced such a downswing and, therefore, probably can't truly relate. Therefore, I'd like to take this opportunity to demonstrate that to be false. I am indeed going through one of those times right now, yet I'm going to practice what I preach.

Let me start off with a quick confession: If you've ever come to me whining or complaining about running bad, I probably tried to cheer you up or make you feel better. However, what I was really thinking the entire time you complained to me was how big of a ####### idiot you are. I probably knew you were in a bad mood and wouldn't take kindly to hearing my true thoughts, so I kept them to myself. But now that I'm the one going through it, I really don't care about holding back. Variance is the lifeblood of poker. Its what keeps the fish coming back. Its what enables us to do what we do for a living. To curse variance the second it turns against you is shortsighted and ignorant. To allow it to affect your game or your work ethic is just beyond stupid. If you're running badly right now, you probably don't want to hear this; You'd probably rather continue to buy into the myth that you're simply unluckier than everyone else because that provides a bit of temporary satisfaction to the masses of idiots who misunderstand the fundamental concepts of variance in poker. However, I think that if you honestly read and consider what I have to say then you'll admit I speak the truth.

I just got back from a vacation home to Maryland to see family and then to New York for a wedding. Plane tickets, rental car, a new suit for the wedding, wedding gifts, hotel stay, nights out with friends, and a bunch of other stuff ended up costing me over $4000. And when I got back and examined my finances, I realized that I was now getting dangerously close to no longer being able to live the lifestyle I've grown accustomed to(some lower stakes players may find it silly that I "need" to spend as much as I do, but imo if you're willing to work for it then you deserve to enjoy the benefits). So I started back grinding by 18-tabling plo8/nlo8 and trying to put in close a minimum of 5000 hands per day. The results sucked. I ran worse and worse despite my increased efforts. And now I find myself right on the brink of having to either make money immediately or cut back on some of my spending habits. I'm choosing to do the former. I'm confident that I can make that choice because I've done it before- My first blogs on this site detailed how I turned $3000 into $80,000 in just over 4 months, and I did it without ever playing over my bankroll(the lone exception being the very beginning when I played live $1/2 NL with only $3000. However, live $1/2 is so ridiculously soft and I played such a safe style that even with only 15 buy-ins I still felt completely comfortable). The method is actually ridiculous simple, but sticking to it seems to be difficult for most. Here it is:

1. Find a poker game that you can beat consistently(this is obviously the tough part, and this blog is aimed mainly at those who have already accomplished this)

2. Make sure you're bankrolled properly for the game

3. Shut up about running badly because honestly nobody cares. Man the #### up, and just get over it. If you're following step #2 then no downswing should ever truly matter.

4. Work your ### off

5. Profit

Thats it! Thats really all there is to it. I will note that many people seem to let negative variance affect their play, and if this is the case then you have to take a step back and double-check that you're still doing step #1. Otherwise, theres nothing else standing between you and your desired financial goals.

The truth of the matter is that people seem to want to find a way to avoid step #4. They see the stories about tournament winners and wonder why that can't be them. Or they focus on the superstars of the poker world who seem to be able to make ridiculous sums of money just by playing a few hands of ultra high stakes games, and they bemoan the fact that they weren't lucky enough to have been born with such natural ability. Or they do anything else to avoid the simple fact that if you are willing to work hard enough for it, then you will be successful enough to laugh if the face of variance. Yes, it is true that, just like in every other field, certain poker players seem to be very successful without putting in a ton of work. But those people make up less than 1% of the player pool. They're no different than the people born into money, the great athletes who seemed to have won the genetic lottery, or the worker who networked his way into a job he never deserved. And focusing on them is just a waste of our time. Not only that, but it causes us to lose sight of all of the blessings we do have as pro poker players. I can decide today that I "feel" like having a lot of money again, and if I put in the proper work then a few months down the road I'll have that money. 99.99% of the general population simply cannot do that. They work predetermined hours for a predetermined salary, and they don't have the option to simply work harder and make more money. Thats not something we should take for granted.

I own all of the DVDs of the TV show Entourage, and over the past few weeks my roommates and I have been watching it the entire way through. My favorite character on the show is by far Ari Gold. At first, it was simply his humor that drew me to him. However, I've also begun to greatly respect the way he goes about his job. He encounters negative variance that is not his fault all the time(for those who haven't watched the show, Ari is an agent and his main client often completely ignores his advice which has caused tremendous problems, as Ari is almost always correct). Yet each and every time, Ari finds himself in a tough spot due to something entirely not his fault he responds by simply working harder. No complaining, no excuses. Just a determination to be the very best. And as a result, hes the absolute best agent in Hollywood. Call me silly for getting inspiration from a fictional character, but I think its a pretty good example.

People are full of excuses for why they can't work hard. Some people will claim that money isn't the only thing so they don't see the reason to work so hard if it doesn't make them happy. Fair enough, I really can't argue with that. However, if thats your excuse, then don't let me ever hear you complain about variance again. If you want to enjoy your easy little life and not work that hard, then you forfeit your right to blame variance for any of your financial shortcomings. Stop blaming variance and realize that the reason you aren't as successful as you wish is due to your own personal decisions. Other people will point out that I'm single and don't know what its like to have to take care of a family while also playing poker for a living. Thats true, as I don't know what its like. However, I do know that you can communicate your financial goals with your family and that it doesn't take a ton of time to let them know that you care and love them each day. I mean, are you really trying to tell me that you just absolutely have to spend all the time you watching TV with your family? Is that really the quality bonding time that you just can't give up? I think that the truth is that people use that as yet another crutch to fall back on in order to explain their poor work ethic. Or yet another excuse I'll hear is that people can't play too many hands before falling off of their "A" game. To me, thats basically like saying "I'm not very mentally tough, and I'm just going to make excuses instead of working to improve on that." There are people in this world who would kill to have a job as easy as playing online poker. Or I've also seen people say that because they are in the middle of a downswing they need to take some time off. Yeah, I'm sure that not working is the solution to your problems.What you really need to do is toughen up and continue to put in the hours.

So there you have it. I'm going to work my ### off these next few months. I'm going to sacrifice doing many of the things I'd enjoy doing in favor of playing more and more poker. And I'm most definitely not going to complain about variance. When I get to where I financially want to be, maybe I'll take things easy again or maybe I'll create new and bigger goals to strive for. I'm not really sure yet. But I do know that I'm not happy where I'm at right now, and instead of making excuses I'm going to man up and work my way into a better position. Next time you find yourself in a downswing, realize that you need to make a decision: Do you want to make excuses and get sympathy from everyone or do you want to do what it takes to be as successful as you want? The choice really is yours, and you need to realize that doing the former is detrimental towards the latter.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

Boiling Oat Runner doesn't pay what it should. That's the Lord's work.

 

[Assani Fisher]

How are things on the romantic front in LV? How do you find the people there in general as opposed to "normal" parts of the country? Just curious.

Vegas definitely isn't the right place to meet a nice girl and settle down. Haven't had any real lasting relationship since I moved here. I'm 27 now....wouldn't mind getting more serious with a girl, but I'm not in any hurry either.

Yeah, obviously it's bad but was actually pretty curious if it impacted your decision to bet on the end or not (or the bet sizing).

Maybe a little bit. I may have been more likely to check behind against a tough player who didn't make such a strange c/r on the turn.

I think the Venetian is the best poker room in Vegas. This could not have been your first time playing there?

No, I've played there a bunch. I do like it a lot as well, but not quite as much as the Wynn. Unfortunately, $5/10 is a bit boring for me now so my only choice is to head over to Bellagio(I'm not a fan of Bellagio at all). At least the WSOP will be in town soon, and then every place will be jumping with action.

If you are betting the turn the turn, I think your bet sizing on the turn is too small. No one ever folds a full house and the pot is about $200. This seems like a great spot to take advantage of the fact that villains probably don't understand pot size and they may think you have a 3 that is looking to "protect" your hand. The pairs that they hold are probably not big ones so the river is going to bring an overcard to very often killing a lot of your action. So I'd think their turn calling range would not be much bigger than their turn betting range, so I think a turn check raise is a line that I'd take often here. Curious to your thoughts on leading turn vs check-raising. For the river, if he has 3x, 44. or 55 he's probably checking it back, but I'm curious to what his frequencies are to bet this river with 77+. Again, live players love them some showdowns, so I think leading this river vs check raising it is best. Two other options that I'd like to hear your thoughts on for the river play is underbetting (like $25 or 50) to induce a spaz or overbetting the river. My guess is live players don't spaz and raise often so underbetting is really bad, and I have no idea how they would react to an overbet/ Vs this villain, I like overbetting because I don't see him raising the river often, but being results oriented, your line was probably better.

Yeah I think I agree with you about betting bigger on the turn. On river, I kinda like my play of a solid but not huge bet. Against him though, it really is tough to say what he'd do against different lines because his play was so horrific.

Is PLO8 spread in Vegas anywhere? What rooms/stakes?

No, not at all. Every now and then I'll try to turn a PLO game into a PLO/PLO8 mix, but I've only been successful once or twice. Once the WSOP gets in town, there should be some PLO8 at the Rio(particularly during the week of the 2 PLO8 events).

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

$5/10 at the Wynn last night. I am deep and have my opponents covered in all of the hands.

Hand #1

Villian is a a pretty girl who I haven't played with before. Only had a few hands at the table, so not sure what to think yet. She can shuffle and stack chips well, so shes somewhat experienced. She also has shown proper preflop aggression by raising in position preflop when she plays hands. She started the hand with around $1800.

I had 59os in BB, she is SB. Guy to my left straddles for $20. MP calls $20, SB completes, I complete, straddler checks. 4 to flop, $80 in pot.

Flop is 67J with 2 hearts. Checked around.

Turn is an 8 non-heart, but there are now 2 diamonds out there in addition to the 2 hearts. She checks, I bet $60, straddler folds, MP calls, she mini-raises to $120. Whats your move?

Hand #1(part 2)

I raised it $200 more. MP folded, she thought for a few seconds but fairly quickly called. River is a 7 of diamonds, so the board is now 6778J with 3 diamonds. She checks, your move.

Results:
*** SPOILER ALERT! Click this link to display the potential spoiler text in this box. ***

");document.close();

When I posted these hands, I thought this one was far and away the most interesting, and I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been any discussion here. Should I take that to mean everyone likes my line?

I woulda checked down. She miniraised (semi-bluff?) when the second diamond hit the board. A check after that to me means she either hit her flush, or filled 2 p and is goading me to bet. But then again maybe that's why you are the pro.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

$5/10 at the Wynn last night. I am deep and have my opponents covered in all of the hands.

Hand #1

Villian is a a pretty girl who I haven't played with before. Only had a few hands at the table, so not sure what to think yet. She can shuffle and stack chips well, so shes somewhat experienced. She also has shown proper preflop aggression by raising in position preflop when she plays hands. She started the hand with around $1800.

I had 59os in BB, she is SB. Guy to my left straddles for $20. MP calls $20, SB completes, I complete, straddler checks. 4 to flop, $80 in pot.

Flop is 67J with 2 hearts. Checked around.

Turn is an 8 non-heart, but there are now 2 diamonds out there in addition to the 2 hearts. She checks, I bet $60, straddler folds, MP calls, she mini-raises to $120. Whats your move?

Hand #1(part 2)

I raised it $200 more. MP folded, she thought for a few seconds but fairly quickly called. River is a 7 of diamonds, so the board is now 6778J with 3 diamonds. She checks, your move.

Results:
*** SPOILER ALERT! Click this link to display the potential spoiler text in this box. ***

");document.close();

When I posted these hands, I thought this one was far and away the most interesting, and I'm a bit surprised that there hasn't been any discussion here. Should I take that to mean everyone likes my line?

I woulda checked down. She miniraised (semi-bluff?) when the second diamond hit the board. A check after that to me means she either hit her flush, or filled 2 p and is goading me to bet. But then again maybe that's why you are the pro.

 

[Assani Fisher]

New blog posted on LeggoPoker. The hand converter doesn't show up here on FBGs, so it may be easier to read the hands on Leggo: http://www.leggopoker.com/blogs/icypots/pl...etter-9121.html

Motivation is such an underrated part of being a poker pro. Being able to set your own schedule and takes days off whenever you feel like it is indeed a huge blessing, but its also a huge responsibility and a constant temptation to slack. Moreover, unlike 99% of jobs in the world, you never really get any training on how to do the job. From day one you're simply thrown into the fire and can do things however you see fit with nobody else to bear the consequences. The result of this, for the great majority of poker pros, is that they end up going through long stretches of time with drastically differing levels of motivation and work ethic. Often times its impossible to pinpoint exactly what triggered the change. Well for whatever reason, I recently suddenly became motivated to "get back to work", and its coincided with a desire to learn and start playing PLO.

I love the hopeful feeling that I have at the beginning of these "motivated times." I've really only had these happen twice before since I've moved to Vegas a little over 3 years ago. The first time was when I first came out here. I had $3000 to my name and was in debt over $7000 to my mom. I had been a poker pro for over 4 years at the time with some decent success, but obviously only having a bankroll of $3000 meant I hadn't been successful overall. I viewed this as one last time to take a shot at playing poker for a living, and I was prepared to get a regular job should I fail. I lived by myself in a new city, I had no television, and I basically did nothing but eat, sleep, and breathe poker every single day. I started out at $1/2 live NLHE and gradually moved up, turning that $3000 into over $80,000 within 4 months. I won a few tournaments shortly afterwards, and I was then in a position where I no longer had any urgent needs to make money. I had made a bunch of friends in Vegas, and I wanted to enjoy life and work less. I started slacking a bit, I ran quite bad, and I slowly saw my bankroll dwindle.

In August of 2009 I had another sudden increase in motivation. I wrote THIS BLOG at the time, which received a lot of positive responses on 2p2 and other online forums. I really dedicated myself to learning PLO8, and I was able to go from a moderate winning $1/2-$5/10 full ring player to one of, if not the, best high stakes heads-up and shorthanded PLO8 players in the world. I sat with anyone who would play me at stakes up to $25/50 deepstacked, and after so many years of robotical full ring play, I was loving the challenge and competitive aspect of my new endeavor. Unfortunately, the high stakes PLO8 games really dried up. There would be days where I literally wouldn't get one person to sit with me all day long. It was disheartening to see the great majority of regs at these high stakes shorthanded games drop down to lower stakes full ring/6 max games. And it didn't help matters that I ran horribly at the WSOP, losing over $60,000 in 2 months. Since the end of the WSOP, I've been stuck in quite a rut....going back and forth between trying to get action at high stakes PLO8 to playing tournaments to playing lower stakes PLO8 to playing live at the Wynn. I've pretty much been slowly losing money the past few months, not really having much of a plan as I went along.

As I said in my opening paragraph, I don't always know why I suddenly get motivated, but somehow it recently occured again. I've decided that I want to learn to play PLO(high only), and there are a lot of aspects of this challenge that have me extremely excited. First and foremost is the fact that I'll constantly be able to get action, as evidenced by the fact that right now its 3:40 in the morning and on PokerStars alone theres one $10/20 6 max game going, two $25/50 shorthanded games going, and a ton of midstakes games. This is vital because even if I'm not good enough to advanced past midstakes, I can at least constantly mass multi-table. Secondly, I'm excited about the challenge. PLO has a much larger player pool than PLO8, and naturally that produces a much higher average skill level due to the amount of people who have contributed to the collective knowledge of the game. For the first time in a while, earlier this week I spent my entire day playing hands, thinking about poker, different strategies, how I could improve and play certain hands/situations, and so on.

My strategy for learning the game has been a bit unique and different than what many would do. I actually started out mass multi-tabling $.5/1 and $1/2, playing anywhere from 18 to 22 tables at a time. I put in over 7500 hands my first day. I know many would scoff at playing so many tables when first learning, but I wanted to get a ton of volume in to start. I wanted to encounter all of the standard situations I'd face in PLO and become familiar with basic strategies. Then the next day I cut it down to 6 to 8 tables, and I focused more intently on each and every decision. I played $1/2 at first, and then i decided to give $3/6 and $5/10 a shot, as I wanted to see how the aggression factor and overall play changed as I went to higher stakes. And finally I played some heads-up at $5/10. From these sessions, I have a bunch of hands which I'll share below. Although many of the skills I learned in PLO8 do carry over to PLO, I still consider myself a total beginner at the game, so I would welcome any and all comments on the hands. I'm going to try to continue to learn the game, and then I'm going to start out playing $1/2 6 max. I may mass multi-table(I'm entertaining the idea of trying for SuperNova Elite in 2011) or I may decide to cut the tables down and play a bit more shorthanded/HU. Either way, I expect to spend quite a bit of time at $1/2. I'm in no hurry to move up. I'm comfortable financially for the time being, and I don't think it should take me that long to have a solid expected winrate at these stakes, which coupled with the rakeback from the FPP Store/Rewards Program should make for solid income. Anyway, heres some of the hands I found interesting.....

Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 5 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BTN: $258.20

SB: $221.75

BB: $205.70

Hero (UTG): $375.90

CO: $696.65

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is UTG with 7 J Q K

Hero raises to $7, CO calls $7, 2 folds, BB calls $5

Flop: ($22.00) 9 K 5 (3 players)

BB checks, Hero bets $14, CO calls $14, BB folds

Turn: ($50.00) 8 (2 players)

Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($50.00) K (2 players)

Hero checks, CO bets $30, Hero folds

Final Pot: $50.00

CO wins $48.00

(Rake: $2.00)

I hate folding here because I feel as if c-betting and then checking turn and river is inviting him to steal. TJQx missed, but me having JQ discounts that somewhat and I think its quite likely he c/r flop with that. I have to think that he'd bet the turn with kings up or better. Does he ever have 95 here, playing ultra passively on flop and turn, then turning it into a bluff on river? Its tough for me to put him on a hand here, but its even tougher for me to put him on a hand that I beat. Is he showing up with random double gutters or one pair flopped hands that missed more often that I think? And even if so, how often did those hands hit the runner-runner diamond draw? I doubt he floats me all that lightly considering theres another player to act him him on the flop(and if he was doing this, then betting the turn would seem likely). Surely hes checking behind on the river with weaker kings than mine, right? Basically I very much struggle to accurately put him on a range here, and I'd be interested in what some more experienced players would say about it.

Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

SB: $430.85

BB: $1183.50

UTG: $110.45

Hero (MP): $321.75

CO: $239.80

BTN: $205.65

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is MP with A A 7 6

1 fold, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, BTN raises to $18, 2 folds, Hero raises to $57, BTN calls $39

Flop: ($117.00) 3 7 J (2 players)

Hero bets $30, BTN folds

Final Pot: $117.00

Hero mucks A A 7 6

Hero wins $114.00

(Rake: $3.00)

Thoughts on flop bet sizing and plans for the turn if called?

Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BB: $112.55

UTG: $106.40

MP: $161.20

CO: $216.30

BTN: $417.90

Hero (SB): $742.70

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is SB with J 8 T 9

2 folds, CO raises to $7, BTN calls $7, Hero raises to $30, 1 fold, CO calls $23, BTN calls $23

Flop: ($92.00) 2 Q J (3 players)

Hero bets $89, CO raises to $186.30 all in, BTN folds, Hero calls $97.30

Turn: ($464.60) 2 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($464.60) 6 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $464.60

CO shows K A Q J (two pair, Queens and Jacks)

Hero shows J 8 T 9 (two pair, Jacks and Deuces)

CO wins $461.60

(Rake: $3.00)

Effective stacks between the Button and I being 200+ BB deep make this a significantly tougher spot. There are quite a few hands in both of their ranges which have me dominated such as the one that CO shows up with. Still though, in a 3 bet pot and with no flush draws on board, c/f here seems way too weak, no? And b/f(especially to the 100BB staked CO) seems like putting way too much money in the pot only to fold a hand that could have quite a bit of equity against hands like QQxx or AKTx. Is betting smallish with the intention of getting it in against the CO but folding to the button an option?

Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

MP: $516.40

CO: $366.70

BTN: $200.00

Hero (SB): $414.35

BB: $434.10

UTG: $624.75

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is SB with 3 A A Q

1 fold, MP raises to $7, CO raises to $24, 1 fold, Hero raises to $81, 1 fold, MP calls $74, CO calls $57

Flop: ($245.00) 9 5 9 (3 players)

Hero checks, MP bets $110, CO folds, Hero folds

Final Pot: $245.00

MP wins $242.00

(Rake: $3.00)

Looking back this hand doesn't seem interesting at all to me, and I think it was a clear mistake to 4 bet OOP with such deep stacks. I probably saved this hand because I wanted to discuss the 4 bet....if we agree that it was a mistake mostly due to stack sizes, then how small do the effective stacks have to be for us to like it?

Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BB: $364.15

UTG: $1207.45

MP: $38.45

Hero (CO): $337.15

BTN: $363.80

SB: $210.90

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with 5 6 A 8

UTG raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero calls $6, 3 folds

Flop: ($15.00) K 8 A (2 players)

UTG bets $10, Hero calls $10

Turn: ($35.00) 8 (2 players)

UTG bets $24, Hero calls $24

River: ($83.00) 5 (2 players)

UTG bets $64, Hero calls $64

Final Pot: $211.00

UTG shows Q 8 9 9 (three of a kind, Eights)

Hero shows 5 6 A 8 (a full house, Eights full of Aces)

Hero wins $208.00

(Rake: $3.00)

I feel like a huge ##### for not putting in a single raise with the 3rd nuts, but considering that he opened UTG thus making KK/AA a viable part of his range and considering how strong a river raise by us would look, what hands that I beat are ever calling the river? Raising the turn may get some value from 8xxx or K8xx, but I also miss out on catching him when he 3 barrel bluffs and I am put to a tough decision when he has the same hand as me and shoves. I can't really think of any other way to play this hand.

Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 4 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BB: $200.00

CO: $421.20

BTN: $416.95

Hero (SB): $519.75

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is SB with A A 7 7

CO raises to $7, 1 fold, Hero raises to $23, BB calls $21, CO calls $16

Flop: ($69.00) 2 6 5 (3 players)

Hero bets $42, BB folds, CO folds

Final Pot: $69.00

Hero mucks A A 7 7

Hero wins $67.00

(Rake: $2.00)

I don't even know where to begin here, as this is a hand with quite a few dynamics to it:

-Good players should realize that this flop very rarely hits my range(being my first day playing, I really can't comment much on my opponent's tendencies or skill level)

-The CO and I are 200+ BB deep, and again if he were a good player he could exploit this to his advantage

-BB's calling range very infrequently hits this flop, which makes it much more likely I take it down when I bet the flop

-Having the two 7s in my hand makes it less likely that my opponents have a 5678ish type hand, and it hurts the equity of their wrap draw hands

-CO's range is quite wide

Obviously having some sort of read on CO is paramount here. To be honest I really don't know what I would've done against a fold from BB and a smallish raise from CO. How would everyone play this situation against an unknown in CO, against a good aggro player in CO, against a passive fish in CO, and against a spewtard in CO? And are there certain opponents who if they were in the CO would cause you to not c-bet this flop?

Poker Stars $3/$6 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 5 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Hero (SB): $600.00

BB: $631.00

UTG: $828.25

CO: $675.75

BTN: $2060.50

Pre Flop: ($9.00) Hero is SB with T 2 K A

2 folds, BTN raises to $21, Hero raises to $69, 1 fold, BTN calls $48

Flop: ($144.00) 8 T 6 (2 players)

Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($144.00) 3 (2 players)

Hero checks, BTN bets $142, Hero calls $142

River: ($428.00) J (2 players)

Hero checks, BTN checks

Final Pot: $428.00

Hero shows T 2 K A (a pair of Tens)

BTN shows 3 4 3 A (three of a kind, Threes)

BTN wins $426.00

(Rake: $2.00)

My attempted c/r on the flop failed, his full pot bet on the turn confused the hell out of me(obviously made sense after seeing his hand), and I was left feeling pretty dumb after this one. Thoughts on all streets welcome....

Poker Stars $5/$10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

SB: $1000.00

BB: $1088.00

Hero (UTG): $2008.00

MP: $4265.80

CO: $640.00

BTN: $562.60

Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero is UTG with 8 T 7 7

Hero raises to $35, MP calls $35, 2 folds, SB calls $30, BB calls $25

Flop: ($140.00) 5 T T (4 players)

SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $100, MP calls $100, SB calls $100, BB folds

Turn: ($440.00) 6 (3 players)

SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks

River: ($440.00) 4 (3 players)

SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks

Final Pot: $440.00

SB shows K K 9 2 (a flush, King high)

Hero mucks 8 T 7 7

MP mucks 7 T 9 8

SB wins $437.00

(Rake: $3.00)

A major reason I decided to play as high as $5/10 despite just learning the game is that I wanted to observe the play of some of the regs. SB is a high stakes reg who has played as high as $25/50.....am I missing something in thinking that his flop call is simply horrible? Are the higher stakes games so aggro that his kings have more showdown value than I'm giving them credit for? Obviously anyone can make a mistake, but since I have so much to learn about PLO I want to make sure that I'm not overlooking anything when I see plays that leave me scratching my head such as this one.

Poker Stars $3/$6 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

CO: $406.25

BTN: $198.00

SB: $1098.00

BB: $1546.05

UTG: $671.05

Hero (MP): $600.00

Pre Flop: ($9.00) Hero is MP with 6 4 3 5

1 fold, Hero raises to $21, 1 fold, BTN calls $21, SB raises to $90, 1 fold, Hero calls $69, BTN calls $69

Flop: ($276.00) 7 3 5 (3 players)

SB bets $54, Hero calls $54, BTN folds

Turn: ($384.00) A (2 players)

SB bets $381, Hero raises to $456 all in, SB calls $75

River: ($1296.00) 5 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $1296.00

SB shows T Q A A (a full house, Aces full of Fives)

Hero shows 6 4 3 5 (a full house, Fives full of Threes)

SB wins $1293.00

(Rake: $3.00)

Drawing dead is fun..... I did consider folding preflop due to the threat of shortstack button pushing and reopening the betting. I figured he has AA a large amount of time when he 3 bets OOP into 2 players. And one of those aces is certainly a club when he bets the flop that small(does he ever bet that small with a smaller flush?). I have one club in my hand, which means that one of his two other cards have to be one of the 8 clubs left out of the 42 unknown cards. Shoving AA with the ace of clubs and no other club seems like his only play with that hand, and my 35 blockers take his equity down to 20%. I guess this is pretty much a basic math problem then, although it'd also be interested to calculate without the 35 blockers in my hand.

I'm heavily leaning towards thinking that my play was incredibly standard here, but if anyone feels otherwise I'll listen to reasons why.....

Poker Stars $5/$10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BTN/SB: $1000.00

Hero (BB): $1708.50

Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero is BB with J 9 A T

BTN/SB raises to $30, Hero raises to $90, BTN/SB calls $60

Flop: ($180.00) 7 5 K (2 players)

Hero bets $120, BTN/SB calls $120

Turn: ($420.00) A (2 players)

Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

River: ($420.00) 4 (2 players)

Hero checks, BTN/SB checks

Final Pot: $420.00

BTN/SB shows 6 3 5 8 (a straight, Four to Eight)

Hero shows J 9 A T (a pair of Aces)

BTN/SB wins $419.50

(Rake: $0.50)

I'm lost on this turn. I'm leaning towards thinking I should've bet pot, but theres a possibility I'm being results oriented. $120 or $130 had been my standard c-bet after 3 betting pre, and I was obviously c-bet/folding the flop.

Poker Stars $5/$10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Hero (BTN/SB): $1000.00

BB: $1253.25

Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero is BTN/SB with 9 J A 6

Hero raises to $30, BB raises to $90, Hero calls $60

Flop: ($180.00) K 5 K (2 players)

BB checks, Hero bets $120, BB calls $120

Turn: ($420.00) 4 (2 players)

BB checks, Hero bets $120, BB calls $120

River: ($660.00) 7 (2 players)

BB checks, Hero checks

Final Pot: $660.00

Hero mucks 9 J A 6

BB shows 6 J J 6 (two pair, Kings and Jacks)

BB wins $659.50

(Rake: $0.50)

I'm sure this is very opponent-dependent, but any thoughts on bet sizing the turn and frequency of bluffing river? Should I be more apt to checking behind on the flop and conceding the hand? Considering that a king is well within his range, c/f this flop does seem unlikely so I may have picked a bad time to bluff. Also how do you like playing it when you do have a king and he takes this line?

Poker Stars $5/$10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Hero (BB): $1109.50

BTN/SB: $1641.25

Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero is BB with A 9 T K

BTN/SB raises to $30, Hero raises to $90, BTN/SB calls $60

Flop: ($180.00) 5 K 8 (2 players)

Hero bets $130, BTN/SB calls $130

Turn: ($440.00) 7 (2 players)

Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $439.50, Hero raises to $889.50 all in, BTN/SB calls $450

River: ($2219.00) 3 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $2219.00

Hero shows A 9 T K (a pair of Kings)

BTN/SB shows 9 8 7 J (two pair, Eights and Sevens)

BTN/SB wins $2218.50

I decided to c/r the turn because I thought I may be able to get him off some 2 pair hands, which was apparently incorrect. Knowing that I definitely think I should've led out the turn(does he shove over top of me or fold if I do??). I remember hearing an interview with Phil Galfond talking about adjustments he made coming into PLO from NLHE, and he said that at first he didn't realize that because of how close hand values run on all streets its often times correct to take down the pot immediately even with big hands rather than to try for more value or to be trickier. I think that may apply here.

(Rake: $0.50)

Poker Stars $5/$10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Hero (BTN/SB): $1969.50

BB: $4617.00

Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero is BTN/SB with 5 K 3 K

Hero raises to $30, BB calls $20

Flop: ($60.00) J T 8 (2 players)

BB checks, Hero bets $50, BB calls $50

Turn: ($160.00) K (2 players)

BB checks, Hero bets $110, BB calls $110

River: ($380.00) 2 (2 players)

BB checks, Hero checks

Final Pot: $380.00

Hero mucks 5 K 3 K

BB shows T 7 3 9 (a straight, Seven to Jack)

BB wins $379.50

(Rake: $0.50)

I almost bet the river for value, any thoughts there?

Poker Stars $5/$10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Hero (BTN/SB): $1878.00

BB: $4706.50

Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero is BTN/SB with 7 Q 3 5

Hero raises to $30, BB calls $20

Flop: ($60.00) 6 Q 4 (2 players)

BB checks, Hero bets $50, BB raises to $170, Hero calls $120

Turn: ($400.00) T (2 players)

BB bets $399.50, Hero calls $399.50

River: ($1199.00) 5 (2 players)

BB bets $900, Hero calls $900

Final Pot: $2999.00

Hero shows 7 Q 3 5 (a straight, Three to Seven)

BB shows 5 7 J J (a pair of Jacks)

Hero wins $2998.50

(Rake: $0.50)

Should I be pushing the turn here to get value from draws that will c/f the river when they miss and/or to avoid trouble spots when the river is a blank and he fires? I didn't really think about re-raising flop at all, but if someone wants to discuss that I'll listen....

Poker Stars $5/$10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Hero (BTN/SB): $3153.00

BB: $3425.00

Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero is BTN/SB with A K 7 K

Hero raises to $30, BB calls $20

Flop: ($60.00) 9 7 9 (2 players)

BB checks, Hero bets $50, BB raises to $180, Hero raises to $310, BB calls $130

Turn: ($680.00) 6 (2 players)

BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($680.00) 8 (2 players)

BB checks, Hero checks

Final Pot: $680.00

Hero mucks A K 7 K

BB shows 7 5 J J (a straight, Five to Nine)

BB wins $679.50

(Rake: $0.50)

Any comments on any street and about either player's play are welcome here.....

Poker Stars $5/$10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

Hero (BB): $2832.50

BTN/SB: $3744.50

Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero is BB with K Q Q 9

BTN/SB raises to $30, Hero raises to $90, BTN/SB calls $60

Flop: ($180.00) 5 T K (2 players)

Hero bets $120, BTN/SB calls $120

Turn: ($420.00) 6 (2 players)

Hero bets $310, BTN/SB calls $310

River: ($1040.00) 3 (2 players)

Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $900, Hero calls $900

Final Pot: $2840.00

Hero mucks K Q Q 9

BTN/SB shows 7 4 2 A (a straight, Three to Seven)

BTN/SB wins $2839.50

(Rake: $0.50)

This was the last hand of quite an unsuccessful heads-up session against this opponent(although I did win smallish amounts against the two other opponents I had). The hand above where I caught his river bluff with my straight had happened relatively recently. So many of the flopped draws missed, but obviously the runner runner one did hit. Any thoughts would be welcome....

 

[eoMMan]

Thanks for posting. Assani.

 

[bostonfred]

Have you read Jeff Hwang's book on PLO? I think it's the best poker book I've read.

 

[bostonfred]

Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 5 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BTN: $258.20

SB: $221.75

BB: $205.70

Hero (UTG): $375.90

CO: $696.65

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is UTG with 7 J Q K

Hero raises to $7, CO calls $7, 2 folds, BB calls $5

Flop: ($22.00) 9 K 5 (3 players)

BB checks, Hero bets $14, CO calls $14, BB folds

Turn: ($50.00) 8 (2 players)

Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($50.00) K (2 players)

Hero checks, CO bets $30, Hero folds

Final Pot: $50.00

CO wins $48.00

(Rake: $2.00)

I hate folding here because I feel as if c-betting and then checking turn and river is inviting him to steal. TJQx missed, but me having JQ discounts that somewhat and I think its quite likely he c/r flop with that. I have to think that he'd bet the turn with kings up or better. Does he ever have 95 here, playing ultra passively on flop and turn, then turning it into a bluff on river? Its tough for me to put him on a hand here, but its even tougher for me to put him on a hand that I beat. Is he showing up with random double gutters or one pair flopped hands that missed more often that I think? And even if so, how often did those hands hit the runner-runner diamond draw? I doubt he floats me all that lightly considering theres another player to act him him on the flop(and if he was doing this, then betting the turn would seem likely). Surely hes checking behind on the river with weaker kings than mine, right? Basically I very much struggle to accurately put him on a range here, and I'd be interested in what some more experienced players would say about it.

-----------

Do you make this call? Sure, if he's a loose/weak player. If he's the kind of guy who chases with pair and a gutshot hands, if he chases bottom two pair on the flop, if he bets aces postflop even when he missed, if he would bet trips without an ace kicker - those are all valid hands here, and will show up often enough that you would have odds to call. If he's a very tight player, he's probably not calling behind with two pair, he's probably not calling preflop with pocket fives, and you know he doesn't have kings because you have the fourth king in your hand. So he's most likely got pocket nines or making a button move on the river. I think it's a good fold. I don't think you're making or losing that much money by calling or folding in the long run.

But this hand is about the preflop and flop play, not the river. Why are you raising preflop from UTG with KQJ7, even if it's double suited? That seems like a trouble hand, and you're building a bigger pot with it. You don't have an ace. If you flop either flush, you're never sure where you are unless the ace of hearts is on board or the ace king of spades. You have only three to a straight, and your dangler is low enough that it's nothing but trouble. This is a trashy hand.

Similarly, c-betting from out of position with top pair, queen kicker with a gutshot and a backdoor second nut flush draw is just creating a pot for him to bluff at. Sure, you might pick up a miracle ten on the turn, or running hearts or running full house cards, but you've already shown you plan on folding to a half pot bet on the river if you catch trips, so why are you building a pot on the flop?

 

[bostonfred]

Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BB: $112.55

UTG: $106.40

MP: $161.20

CO: $216.30

BTN: $417.90

Hero (SB): $742.70

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is SB with J 8 T 9

2 folds, CO raises to $7, BTN calls $7, Hero raises to $30, 1 fold, CO calls $23, BTN calls $23

Flop: ($92.00) 2 Q J (3 players)

Hero bets $89, CO raises to $186.30 all in, BTN folds, Hero calls $97.30

Turn: ($464.60) 2 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($464.60) 6 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $464.60

CO shows K A Q J (two pair, Queens and Jacks)

Hero shows J 8 T 9 (two pair, Jacks and Deuces)

CO wins $461.60

(Rake: $3.00)

Effective stacks between the Button and I being 200+ BB deep make this a significantly tougher spot. There are quite a few hands in both of their ranges which have me dominated such as the one that CO shows up with. Still though, in a 3 bet pot and with no flush draws on board, c/f here seems way too weak, no? And b/f(especially to the 100BB staked CO) seems like putting way too much money in the pot only to fold a hand that could have quite a bit of equity against hands like QQxx or AKTx. Is betting smallish with the intention of getting it in against the CO but folding to the button an option?

------------

I'm going to post a full paragraph from Jeff's book here because it's very similar to this hand.

A $1/$2 game online. You are dealth the 9h 8d 7d 6h in middle position. The player in front of you openst with a raise to $6. You call, the button calls, and the big blind calls. The flop cones Tc 9s 2h, giving you second pair and a thirteen card straight draw. The big blind checks, and the pre-flop raiser best $25. What do you do?

Answer: Fold. The sucker end wrap is trouble.

The way this hand played out is obviously different. First, you were the preflop aggressor, and you were c-betting, instead of folding to a bet. And second, a jack high rundown is stronger than a nine high. But notice that in the hand above, he calls with his rundown hand here, instead of raising with it. And he doesn't get committed when he half hits the flop. Potting it preflop for $30 thinned the field, which is bad for rundown hands, and created a pot where you had to shove any flop because you only had 2x the pot remaining. This hand plays like a pair of nines preflop in holdem - if you hit your set it's a monster, and it has some postflop value on its hand strength alone, but it can get you into some predicaments.

JT98 on a QJ2 flop has three nut outs - the three remaining eights. Any nine or ten could be trouble. Think about the hands you could be up against after your preflop raise. AKQJ has you drawing slim, and KQJT has you drawing to a three outer. You're in decent shape against a set, an AKQx hand or AAxx hand, but you're almost never ahead here, and your draws are all compromised. Even though you were the preflop aggressor, this doesn't seem like a shoving hand.

Now tell me which hands you push off postflop with your PSB? Small pocket pairs? They're not in the pot right now because you potted preflop. Big pairs like aces and kings? Maybe. Suited Ax with a pair of non-broadway cards? Even though it's a rainbow, this flop hits a lot of the hands that call you preflop. Shoving with the plan of calling the re-shove seems aggressive.

 

[bostonfred]

Poker Stars $1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BB: $364.15

UTG: $1207.45

MP: $38.45

Hero (CO): $337.15

BTN: $363.80

SB: $210.90

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is CO with 5 6 A 8

UTG raises to $6, 1 fold, Hero calls $6, 3 folds

Flop: ($15.00) K 8 A (2 players)

UTG bets $10, Hero calls $10

Turn: ($35.00) 8 (2 players)

UTG bets $24, Hero calls $24

River: ($83.00) 5 (2 players)

UTG bets $64, Hero calls $64

Final Pot: $211.00

UTG shows Q 8 9 9 (three of a kind, Eights)

Hero shows 5 6 A 8 (a full house, Eights full of Aces)

Hero wins $208.00

(Rake: $3.00)

I feel like a huge ##### for not putting in a single raise with the 3rd nuts, but considering that he opened UTG thus making KK/AA a viable part of his range and considering how strong a river raise by us would look, what hands that I beat are ever calling the river? Raising the turn may get some value from 8xxx or K8xx, but I also miss out on catching him when he 3 barrel bluffs and I am put to a tough decision when he has the same hand as me and shoves. I can't really think of any other way to play this hand.

---------

I think this is the right line for this hand as it played out. If he checks the river, I bet it. But I think you're right about raising the river - even if you get called by some marginal weaker hands you're not gaining enough value to make it worth the AA or KK smash hands. Maybe you get value from exactly his hand, top trips, or some crazy 55xx hand that made it all the way to the river, but there are no flushes or straights on the board and he's either firing with something or nothing, and the somethings have you beat way more often than not. Which renders your hand the strongest possible bluffcatcher, and not much more.

 

[chet]

Good to see you back AF.

I don't think you'll find anyone here with more PLO knowledge than you. There are exceptions (BF comes to mind), but asking for poker advice here is like going to the shark pool for FF advice. Proceed with extreme caution.

 

[bostonfred]

Good to see you back AF.

I don't think you'll find anyone here with more PLO knowledge than you. There are exceptions (BF comes to mind), but asking for poker advice here is like going to the shark pool for FF advice. Proceed with extreme caution.

Thanks but there's no way I'm better than Assani at PLO. I've been playing more now that I found a regular home game that's a relatively short drive from me, but most of my play is live so I have a tiny fraction of Assani's hands played and less success. Like a lot of math guys I talk theory better than I play. Truck is a big PLO guy and there are a couple others who play regularly. I'd like to hear their thoughts. I would strongly recommend this book though:

http://www.amazon.com/Pot-Limit-Omaha-Poke...3916&sr=8-1

For Omaha players, he covers all four major Omaha vairants, including PLO Hi-Lo and Hi only, and limit Hi-Lo and Hi only. He says he put together the best Omaba starting hand valuations, and as far as I can tell, he's absolutely right. He covers the difference between JT96 and JT98, for example. It's a good read.

But this book has been good for my holdem game, too. I was on a downswing for a while, and have been ticking way back up since reading this. He does a great job on the math, and explaining the value of drawing hands both preflop and postflop in a more meaningful way than most other books. One of the fun facts he mentions is that the odds of catching your two cards on the flop - for example, if you have QJT7, the odds of catching the 8 and 9 you need to make a monster wrap - are about 1 in 25. That's also true for guys who play hands like J8 preflop in holdem. Although a one pair hand in holdem is obviously more playable, you're really looking at about 1 in 25 that you'll hit your two perfect inside cards on the flop. For a one gapper like J9, where you need a ten and either an eight or a queen to flop your OESD, you're looking at something closer to 1 in 12. So your two gappers need very deep stacks to be played for straight value, and your one gappers need decently deep stacks, too. A lot of good pokertheory in there for people who find it interesting.

 

[Dr. Bronner]

Truck is a big PLO guy and there are a couple others who play regularly.

I play mostly PLO8, the couple times I've dipped my toe into PLO the results were laughably bad. And I haven't put in any serious time in months.That said, I do know that the level of play in PLO seems to be mostly awful, and learning the game is probably a good move. You can only go so far playing HU PLO8, for the reasons Assani mentioned.GL AF. Have you considered playing FTP instead of Stars? It seems like FT's main benefit (27% RB) is more suited to players who might change the frequency of their play. I know that PS requires you to play hard through the year if you want to hit the big bonuses.

 

[bostonfred]

Poker Stars $3/$6 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players

The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

CO: $406.25

BTN: $198.00

SB: $1098.00

BB: $1546.05

UTG: $671.05

Hero (MP): $600.00

Pre Flop: ($9.00) Hero is MP with 6 4 3 5

1 fold, Hero raises to $21, 1 fold, BTN calls $21, SB raises to $90, 1 fold, Hero calls $69, BTN calls $69

Flop: ($276.00) 7 3 5 (3 players)

SB bets $54, Hero calls $54, BTN folds

Turn: ($384.00) A (2 players)

SB bets $381, Hero raises to $456 all in, SB calls $75

River: ($1296.00) 5 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $1296.00

SB shows T Q A A (a full house, Aces full of Fives)

Hero shows 6 4 3 5 (a full house, Fives full of Threes)

SB wins $1293.00

(Rake: $3.00)

Drawing dead is fun..... I did consider folding preflop due to the threat of shortstack button pushing and reopening the betting. I figured he has AA a large amount of time when he 3 bets OOP into 2 players. And one of those aces is certainly a club when he bets the flop that small(does he ever bet that small with a smaller flush?). I have one club in my hand, which means that one of his two other cards have to be one of the 8 clubs left out of the 42 unknown cards. Shoving AA with the ace of clubs and no other club seems like his only play with that hand, and my 35 blockers take his equity down to 20%. I guess this is pretty much a basic math problem then, although it'd also be interested to calculate without the 35 blockers in my hand.

I'm heavily leaning towards thinking that my play was incredibly standard here, but if anyone feels otherwise I'll listen to reasons why.....

----------------

This is another one where I take issue with your preflop raise. Perfect rundowns are powerful but a 6 high rundown has no high card value so the best flops for it, aside from a straight, are two pair and an OESD, a pair and a 9 card inside wrap, or an A2x flop with a no bust 9 card wheel wrap with a redraw to the 6 high straight. Your two pair hands will always suck beacuse they're low, and your wheel draws will often have the possibility of a broadway wrap on board due to the ace. Hwang talks a little about about this hand:

You can understand why the discussion of straight draws is so important - it tells us what hands we can play to get there. Four perfectly connecting rundown cards such as AKQJ down to JT98 and 9876 have excelletn straight potential. They offer the opportunity to flop the nut straight with a redraw and multiple 13 card straight drraws as well as two pair with an OESD.

The smaller rundowns such as 8765 down to 6543 are more speculative. Note that 6543 is the smallest playable rundown and not 5432.

I think this is a limp/call hand. You don't mind him raising preflop, but you don't want to commit with six high. And that's exactly what ended up happening. You committed to the hand because you put him on a range, but also because you had let the pot get to the point where he could suck you in with a pot building bet on the flop and a full pot on the turn.

There's a range of flops you love - and 3-5-7 is obviously one of them if it's a rainbow - and then a range of flops you like but don't love - and 3-5-7 all clubs is in that latter category. By raising so much preflop, you force yourself to commit to flops whether you like them or love them. Raising less preflop lets you get away from hands like this, or float to see what he does on the turn, or call them down cheaper.

 

[Hoart Petterson]

I didn't play yesterday, but I played a short 3 hour session on Saturday night. I keep running well. Was quickly up $1300 within an hour, but lost a bit of it back. Ended up +$600 for the session...have now ran $2000 up to $12000 in the 5 or 6 sessions since I came back to playing live....poker is so much more fun when you're running well! Not a ton of interesting hands except for this one....Villain is a typical tight live player....not all that good, makes some very clear mistakes, but hes tight enough that I don't really love having him at the table either. Hes probably a break even player at live $5/10. I haven't played with him before this session though, so I'm basing all of this off of only a short while of play alongside him. I'm on button with 35 of clubs. 3 limpers ahead of me, I decide to limp as well. SB completes, BB checks. 6 to the flop.Flop comes 47J with 2 clubs, giving me a flush draw and a gutshot. SB, BB, and first limper check. Villain bets full pot of $60, next limper calls, its on me. Whats your move here?I called. SB called, BB folded, first limper folded. So now theres 4 players still in the hand and theres $300 in the pot.Turn is a 2 of clubs(note: the four is a not one of the clubs, so I do not have a straight flush draw). All 3 players check to me. I bet $180(is this too small considering that I hate any club coming on the river? I probably would've bet more if I wasn't in position, but being in position makes my river play a lot easier so I don't mind keeping it a bit cheaper).SB folded, villain mini-raises to $360, LP folds. Villain has about $900 left in his stack now. Whats your move?

so what happened?

 

[bostonfred]

It's hard to comment on some of the other hands since heads up hand values are just so different than six max or full ring. I think the big thing I notice is that it seems like you're being a little too aggressive with holdings that are easily dominated. Those happen, and you shouldn't just check/fold them all, but you may want to change your preflop raising strategy with spec hands that are easily dominated so that they don't happen as often. You also seem to be c-betting a lot of weak holdings. Heads up that makes sense but in a pot limit ring game that's trouble. You're building a pot for them to take away from you, and you seem to be willing to protect your c-bets with substandard holdings when raised. If you're having a downswing maybe you should dial back some of the pre and postflop raising because it seems like you're aggressive enough that you'd still get paid off on your made hands.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Have you read Jeff Hwang's book on PLO? I think it's the best poker book I've read.

I actually know Jeff personally, as we've tried to organize live PLO games at Wynn and Venetian before. I do have his book, and have read through it 2 or 3 times. With that said, I think its far from the best poker book around. I think it does have some value, most of which comes from the fact that he does an excellent job of explaining why hands(both preflop and postflop) have the value they do, he writes clearly and in an easy-to-read style, and I have no doubt that his advice could teach someone to beat soft live PLO games where a lot of opponents are open-limping, playing way too many hands, and playing way too passively in general.

However, I think his advice is way too weak tight for the aggressive online games of today. I can't confidently speak about his PLO advice since I'm relatively new to the game(at least by online standards), but almost every higher stakes online reg I've encountered agrees with this, and I can indeed confidently say that about the PLO8 section of his book. His advice basically breaks down to: play premium hands, be patient, let your opponents play badly and take advantage of it. To me it very clearly seems aimed at live play or online play from 3+ years ago. I have doubts that his book would be useful at anything higher than $.25/.5 online, as you simply won't be very difficult for tougher players to play against using his style.

I've also read Rolf Slotboom's book, which I place in a similar category: Solid advice for beating ridiculously easily live games where all your opponents are horrible at poker, but just not nearly aggressive enough advice to beat tougher online games. I'm heavily considering buying LearnedFromTV's book.

 

[bostonfred]

Have you read Jeff Hwang's book on PLO? I think it's the best poker book I've read.

I actually know Jeff personally, as we've tried to organize live PLO games at Wynn and Venetian before. I do have his book, and have read through it 2 or 3 times. With that said, I think its far from the best poker book around. I think it does have some value, most of which comes from the fact that he does an excellent job of explaining why hands(both preflop and postflop) have the value they do, he writes clearly and in an easy-to-read style, and I have no doubt that his advice could teach someone to beat soft live PLO games where a lot of opponents are open-limping, playing way too many hands, and playing way too passively in general.

However, I think his advice is way too weak tight for the aggressive online games of today. I can't confidently speak about his PLO advice since I'm relatively new to the game(at least by online standards), but almost every higher stakes online reg I've encountered agrees with this, and I can indeed confidently say that about the PLO8 section of his book. His advice basically breaks down to: play premium hands, be patient, let your opponents play badly and take advantage of it. To me it very clearly seems aimed at live play or online play from 3+ years ago. I have doubts that his book would be useful at anything higher than $.25/.5 online, as you simply won't be very difficult for tougher players to play against using his style.

I've also read Rolf Slotboom's book, which I place in a similar category: Solid advice for beating ridiculously easily live games where all your opponents are horrible at poker, but just not nearly aggressive enough advice to beat tougher online games. I'm heavily considering buying LearnedFromTV's book.

Good to know. You can probably disregard anything else I've said in the thread then.