Automobile A/C mystery (not likely to buy my own parts, after all) (1 Viewer)

[Doug B]

I understand why auto repair shops might not want to do this. They lose out on the parts markup. Or the customer fouls up and gets the wrong part, and makes it the shop's problem. Or whatever else.

Still ... my understanding is that some independent shops will, indeed, install a part that a customer brings in. Might have to call around. Might have to have a connection. Maybe it's considered a big favor, and not normal operations. But supposedly, such a shop can normally be found in most areas.

Has anyone here had any luck doing this kind of thing?

 

[gruecd]

Yes. Last year the power lock on my driver's side door stopped working, and I needed a new actuator. Shop told me it would be several weeks before they could get the part. I found an Infiniti dealer online who had one in stock and had them ship it to me, and I had it within days. My local shop installed it, just told me that they wouldn't warranty the work.

 

[Mookie]

I do it all the time, but my mechanic is a good friend who is married to a co-worker. It's easier for him if I spend the time finding the part and ordering it. I pay him for labor.

 

[trogg78]

If its a hard to find part it might make sense.

The biggest issue with supplying your own part is if it fails pre-maturely it would be your responsibility to warranty the part and then you have to pay the labor again to install it. If you bought the part from the mechanic the mechanic would warranty the part as well as the labor. Better warranty with mechanic supplied part.

 

[Dezbelief]

Just about any mechanic/shop will install outside parts. I've even taken aftermarket parts to a dealership and had them installed.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I did it for my catalytic converter, after the original was stolen. And even though multiple sites listed the replacement cat I purchased, the connecting flange didn’t fit, so the shop had to weld it into place.

It was a second shop I tried in a local chain. The first shop refused to install my part, offering their pricey custom cat instead. Thank goodness the other guy was more reasonable.

He earned the only Yelp! review I’ve ever logged.

 

[Quint]

If its a hard to find part it might make sense.

The biggest issue with supplying your own part is if it fails pre-maturely it would be your responsibility to warranty the part and then you have to pay the labor again to install it. If you bought the part from the mechanic the mechanic would warranty the part as well as the labor. Better warranty with mechanic-supplied part.

exactly this.

yeah, paying full retail for a part from the Shop/Dealership isn't great, but you also get the peace of mind that if the part fails (within the warranty) the installer is on the hook for the parts & labor. further, if a consumer were to purchase an electrical part to have the shop install and it didn't solve the issue, there is no return/refund on that item so the DYI'er is out the price of the part and is now looking at paying for diagnostics and whatever part(s) is needed to fix the problem.

 

[Doug B]

UPDATE:

I actually didn’t have any trouble find a shop nearby that will supply the labor alone. The first few places I called were fine with installing my parts. They just stressed that the repair would not include a warranty (without specifying parts-vs-labor warranty or anything like that).

...

I took the Escape in for an A/C diagnosis at a well-regarded local shop yesterday. I didn’t mention anything about installing parts – I really just needed to have an earlier OBD reading (no codes detected, no dashboard warning light, nothing) confirmed. But I thought it would be helpful to have the overall A/C system looked at.

Outcome: They were flummoxed:

• There were no OBD codes detected whatsoever.
• Refrigerant pressure is not low, per the shop (they’d have mentioned if pressure was high, I hope).
• No visually-obvious refrigerant leaks (though slow non-messy leaks are common enough).
• The compressor clutch engages
• The compressor itself spins like normal and is not seized.
• Fuse and relay to compressor are good.
• Wiring tested good, no lack of continuity anywhere (though I guess there could be a comes-and-goes wiring issue?).
• Lack of OBD codes seem to rule out faulty pressure switches, but maybe not?

After getting the inconclusive A/C diagnostics, I asked the shop for an estimate to both procure and install a new A/C compressor kit - compressor, condenser, dryer/accumulator, expansion valve, O-rings, etc. To be clear: I would NOT be supplying my own parts for the purposes of this estimate.

The estimate came out to over $2,600, which is nearly triple the “I’ll live without A/C” amount budgeted. And their price for the compressor kit was similarly about triple what I can a high-quality new kit for myself.

…

Anyway. I have it at a second shop now for another diagnosis. If the second place is similarly flummoxed, I will ask them if they’d be willing to simply discharge the old refrigerant, take the A/C lines to vacuum, and then refill with new refrigerant. This should do two things: (a) clear air out of the lines if some got in, and (b) clear out any small objects, grit, etc. that may have gotten into the lines. The latter would likely be a sign of a bigger problem, but at least I’d have that much extra knowledge of what is happening.

 

[trogg78]

What kind of car is it? Some things not mentioned is the cabin filter, fan motor, or blend door actuators. Did they check them all with a bi-directional scan tool to make sure they were all working?

 

[Doug B]

What kind of car is it? Some things not mentioned is the cabin filter, fan motor, or blend door actuators. Did they check them all with a bi-directional scan tool to make sure they were all working?

It's a 2017 Ford Escape. It used the new R-1234yf refrigerant, which has thrown some shops off (local oil-change place will work on older A/C units, but say they can't work with R-1234yf )

Regarding the specific issues you brought up:

I had someone look at it Saturday (not an ASE mechanic, though) who said the symptoms weren't consistent with a clogged cabin air filter since the blower still blows nice and strong.

No idea if the shop yesterday checked the fan motor, but I'd think that would be part of an A/C diagnosis. But maybe not. If it matters, the engine doesn't run hot or anything like that ... no obvious evidence of engine air intake issues.

The blend doors is a good call, and I wish I would have remembered to bring them up yesterday. I'll bring them up today to the second shop if they don't bring them up first.

 

[trogg78]

What kind of car is it? Some things not mentioned is the cabin filter, fan motor, or blend door actuators. Did they check them all with a bi-directional scan tool to make sure they were all working?

It's a 2017 Ford Escape. It used the new R-1234yf refrigerant, which has thrown some shops off (local oil-change place will work on older A/C units, but say they can't work with R-1234yf )

Regarding the specific issues you brought up:

I had someone look at it Saturday (not an ASE mechanic, though) who said the symptoms weren't consistent with a clogged cabin air filter since the blower still blows nice and strong.

No idea if the shop yesterday checked the fan motor, but I'd think that would be part of an A/C diagnosis. But maybe not. If it matters, the engine doesn't run hot or anything like that ... no obvious evidence of engine air intake issues.

The blend doors is a good call, and I wish I would have remembered to bring them up yesterday. I'll bring them up today to the second shop if they don't bring them up first.

You'll definitely want to make sure your system holds a vacuum and its got the right amount of refrigerant. It also looks like it could be an issue with the throttle expansion valve https://www.fordescape.org/threads/ac-not-cold-enough.65706/#post-1095598 That something else they should be able to check with a bi-directional scan tool.

 

[Doug B]

It also looks like it could be an issue with the throttle expansion valve https://www.fordescape.org/threads/ac-not-cold-enough.65706/#post-1095598 That something else they should be able to check with a bi-directional scan tool.

Would that have thrown an ODB II code? I am assuming the "bi-directional scan tool" you mention is not an ODB reader? Before he got started, the tech yesterday was bragging about this big $6,000 tablet he'd use to pull a comprehensive set of ODB codes,and that the little hand-held units only could find power-train specific codes.

That's been one of the surprising things to me -- no codes.

 

[trogg78]

It also looks like it could be an issue with the throttle expansion valve https://www.fordescape.org/threads/ac-not-cold-enough.65706/#post-1095598 That something else they should be able to check with a bi-directional scan tool.

Would that have thrown an ODB II code? I am assuming the "bi-directional scan tool" you mention is not an ODB reader? Before he got started, the tech yesterday was bragging about this big $6,000 tablet he'd use to pull a comprehensive set of ODB codes,and that the little hand-held units only could find power-train specific codes.

That's been one of the surprising things to me -- no codes.

Bi- directional scan tool can read codes and do way more. It will show if the valve/blend door is open or closed and allow you to manipulate it so you can confirm it reacts correctly. Often times these valves and blend doors will not throw a code and you can use your scan tool to test them.

 

[Dezbelief]

If the second place is similarly flummoxed, I will ask them if they’d be willing to simply discharge the old refrigerant, take the A/C lines to vacuum, and then refill with new refrigerant

That was going to be my suggestion. I might have missed you giving a complete description of your AC issue, but sometimes it is cooling and sometimes it is not? There's a small fine mesh screen in the lines before the refrigerant gets to the compressor. There might be particles clogging the screen. Sometimes these particles with settle overnight and your AC works for a while until the particles work their way back up, bumpy driving can move the particles around too.

 

[Doug B]

That was going to be my suggestion. I might have missed you giving a complete description of your AC issue, but sometimes it is cooling and sometimes it is not?

Kind of. It's never really working right, like it was when we first got the vehicle.

It blows reasonably cool air (not ice cold) first thing in the morning and late at night.

Once the air temperature gets above 80 or so, though, it starts blowing warm air. Over 90, you might get an occasional wisp of barely-cool air for a few minutes but after a short bit it'll turn into hair-dryer-hot air.

It occurred to me that engine temperature itself might have an influence (to be clear -- the engine is not running hot). When I first start the car in the morning and start driving on a cold engine, the AC almost feels cold as normal. After several minutes of driving and the engine getting up to normal running temperature, the AC slowly gets tepid. When the outside temperatures are in the 70s, it's still comfortable in the car with the AC running -- can't hang meat in the car, but it is comfortable. Once the outside temps get in the 80s -- and even worse, the 90s -- the AC just puts out warmer and warmer air.

EDIT: I wanted to add, too, that the onset of the symptoms started late last summer and were gradual in progression. It wasn't that one day, the air just stopped working -- instead, the car's AC just functioned progressively less well day by day. But then, by November (New Orleans area, we use car AC almost year round) the daytime temperatures were mild enough so that weak AC wasn't that big a deal.

 

[Dezbelief]

That was going to be my suggestion. I might have missed you giving a complete description of your AC issue, but sometimes it is cooling and sometimes it is not?

Kind of. It's never really working right, like it was when we first got the vehicle.

It blows reasonably cool air (not ice cold) first thing in the morning and late at night.

Once the air temperature gets above 80 or so, though, it starts blowing warm air. Over 90, you might get an occasional wisp of barely-cool air for a few minutes but after a short bit it'll turn into hair-dryer-hot air.

It occurred to me that engine temperature itself might have an influence (to be clear -- the engine is not running hot). When I first start the car in the morning and start driving on a cold engine, the AC almost feels cold as normal. After several minutes of driving and the engine getting up to normal running temperature, the AC slowly gets tepid. When the outside temperatures are in the 70s, it's still comfortable in the car with the AC running -- can't hang meat in the car, but it is comfortable. Once the outside temps get in the 80s -- and even worse, the 90s -- the AC just puts out warmer and warmer air.

EDIT: I wanted to add, too, that the onset of the symptoms started late last summer and were gradual in progression. It wasn't that one day, the air just stopped working -- instead, the car's AC just functioned progressively less well day by day. But then, by November (New Orleans area, we use car AC almost year round) the daytime temperatures were mild enough so that weak AC wasn't that big a deal.

That sounds like something is going out and hasn't completely broken yet, the clutch maybe?

 

[Doug B]

That sounds like something is going out and hasn't completely broken yet, the clutch maybe?

Yesterday diagnostics OKed the clutch. Going to see if today's shop agrees.

 

[Doug B]

Second shop called back:

Refrigerant pressure read high. They want to vacuum-and-recharge to continue diagnosis. That's what I wanted them to do anyway, so I OKed the work.

Now I'm wondering why yesterday's shop didn't say anything about high refrigerant pressure? Shop with a great local rep, too. They weren't even busy or overloaded. Oh well.

 

[PIK95]

I had a similar problem come up on an older Honda. Long story short, it wasn't draining water properly. Once that was fixed it was good as new. Good luck!

 

[belljr]

Pfetzer valve imo

 

[PIK95]

Pfetzer valve imo

That or the DN valve really.

 

[Nathan R. Jessep]

Second shop called back:

Refrigerant pressure read high. They want to vacuum-and-recharge to continue diagnosis. That's what I wanted them to do anyway, so I OKed the work.

Now I'm wondering why yesterday's shop didn't say anything about high refrigerant pressure? Shop with a great local rep, too. They weren't even busy or overloaded. Oh well.

I am fighting this same issue right now with my F150, after having a new compressor 2 summers ago. This guy was not my main mechanic, just the one that was available when I was desperate in LA August heat. Installed it and it worked fine I thought, but was just glad to have any AC at that point. I noticed when temps started going up this past summer it wasn't acting right. Took it back to him and said after talking to a mechanic friend (probably Google lol) he had too much Freon in it and it helped a little bit once he fixed that, but it still wasn't like before the replacement. He couldn't figure it out beyond that, so I just lived with it for the time being. Taking it to my main guy next week to fix it right I hope. He told me when I talked to him yesterday he would've referred me to someone else if he knew that's where I was taking it. GL GB!

 

[Doug B]

This morning, the second shop vacuumed the AC lines, then recharged with new refrigerant. Then they completed their A/C diagnostics.

They say everything works properly EXCEPT that they suspect the condenser is faulty. Something about desiccant inside ... being messed up somehow? Don't know. I understand the desiccant inside to be little crystals or pellets -- maybe something punctured the condenser and those pellets "leaked" out?

They recommended replacing the condenser, receiver/dryer (internal part of the condenser, I thought?), and expansion valve. Quote is $1,300 and change.

A lot better than $2,600 for a full compressor kit, but still prohibitive. Will take car back home today, unfixed, and try again elsewhere in the near future.

 

[Quint]

This morning, the second shop vacuumed the AC lines, then recharged with new refrigerant. Then they completed their A/C diagnostics.

They say everything works properly EXCEPT that they suspect the condenser is faulty. Something about desiccant inside ... being messed up somehow? Don't know. I understand the desiccant inside to be little crystals or pellets -- maybe something punctured the condenser and those pellets "leaked" out?

They recommended replacing the condenser, receiver/dryer (internal part of the condenser, I thought?), and expansion valve. Quote is $1,300 and change.

A lot better than $2,600 for a full compressor kit, but still prohibitive. Will take car back home today, unfixed, and try again elsewhere in the near future.

was the $2600 estimate for OEM parts or aftermarket? if aftermarket, did they say if the compressor was new or remanufactured?

 

[Terminalxylem]

This morning, the second shop vacuumed the AC lines, then recharged with new refrigerant. Then they completed their A/C diagnostics.

They say everything works properly EXCEPT that they suspect the condenser is faulty. Something about desiccant inside ... being messed up somehow? Don't know. I understand the desiccant inside to be little crystals or pellets -- maybe something punctured the condenser and those pellets "leaked" out?

They recommended replacing the condenser, receiver/dryer (internal part of the condenser, I thought?), and expansion valve. Quote is $1,300 and change.

A lot better than $2,600 for a full compressor kit, but still prohibitive. Will take car back home today, unfixed, and try again elsewhere in the near future.

Assuming your max repair allocation is ~$900, what is your time worth?

I nearly sold my 2006 vehicle when its AC behaved like you described, in comparably pleasant island heat. Summer in LA without AC would be far more miserable.

Luckily, I just added refrigerant, and it’s working again.

 

[Doug B]

This morning, the second shop vacuumed the AC lines, then recharged with new refrigerant. Then they completed their A/C diagnostics.

They say everything works properly EXCEPT that they suspect the condenser is faulty. Something about desiccant inside ... being messed up somehow? Don't know. I understand the desiccant inside to be little crystals or pellets -- maybe something punctured the condenser and those pellets "leaked" out?

They recommended replacing the condenser, receiver/dryer (internal part of the condenser, I thought?), and expansion valve. Quote is $1,300 and change.

A lot better than $2,600 for a full compressor kit, but still prohibitive. Will take car back home today, unfixed, and try again elsewhere in the near future.

was the $2600 estimate for OEM parts or aftermarket? if aftermarket, did they say if the compressor was new or remanufactured?

I was quoted with NAPA parts. I didn't think independent shops much used OEM parts unless by customer request or if the part was otherwise hard to source.

Definitely was quoted a new NAPA compressor kit -- I specified that. Nothing remanufactured. Out of that $2,671 quote, $951 was for the three components of the compressor kit -- listed on the quote as Compressor, Condenser, and Expansion Valve. That looks right to me -- the dryer/accumulator is an internal component of the condenser, and the O-rings and all don't need to be spelled out.

Also on the quote was a flush/evacuate/recharge of the refrigerant lines ... and I know why that's necessary for this repair. But they're coming in at $598 just flush/evacuate/recharge. The refrigerant alone they're quoting $318. I know it needs the new R-1234yf and that the older refrigerant was a lot cheaper, but still.

At the moment, the "$2,671 quote" shop is out of the picture. Might call them back if I decide to buy my own condenser & expansion valve and have them install it. They quoted 4.2 hours on the condenser labor alone, though, and another 1 hour on the expansion valve. I know those parts are hard to get to for a home mechanic ... but when you can put the car on a lift and readily remove the passenger-side front wheel, all those AC parts are right there.

 

[Doug B]

Assuming your max repair allocation is ~$900, what is your time worth?

I don't know ... not sure how to apply that to the situation at hand.

 

[Ron Swanson]

In my early 20's I went something like 3 summers without AC in my car in Houston, TX because the shade tree mechanic I grew up using quoted me some exorbitant amount. I finally made a little money and had the car at a reputable shop for something else and decided to shoot the lock off the wallet and have them fix the AC as well. Went to pick the car up and the bill was minimal, like $100. Turns out the shade tree mechanic didn't know about the limit switch that had to be bypassed when recharging the refrigerant and all it needed was a recharge. The AC worked great for years after that. Still pissed at him.

 

[Gally]

In my early 20's I went something like 3 summers without AC in my car in Houston, TX because the shade tree mechanic I grew up using quoted me some exorbitant amount. I finally made a little money had the car at a reputable shop for something else and decided to shoot the lock off the wallet and have them fix the AC as well. Went to pick the car up and the bill was minimal, like $100. Turns out the shade tree mechanic didn't know about the limit switch that had to be bypassed when recharging the refrigerant and all it needed was a recharge. The AC worked great for years after that. Still pissed at him.

Makes sense because the mechanic was cool under the shade tree. Why would he know how to deal with AC issues?

 

[Terminalxylem]

Assuming your max repair allocation is ~$900, what is your time worth?

I don't know ... not sure how to apply that to the situation at hand.

I‘m just thinking you're investing a lot of time going to two, possibly three different places with no repair. Assuming A. There‘s an extremely high bar before you’ll scrap the newish vehicle vehicle and B. Summer in LA without AC is intolerable/impractical, I think you’re at the point where you may need to take the plunge and get a big, costly repair.

You've probably already invested a few hours in this. That’s way past my threshold for throwing up the white flag, but YMMV. I guess some people enjoy the challenge?

 

[Doug B]

I think you’re at the point where you may need to take the plunge and get a big, costly repair.

You've probably already invested a few hours in this. That’s way past my threshold for throwing up the white flag, but YMMV. I guess some people enjoy the challenge?

If I can't get it below big and costly, it doesn't happen. Period. Not without a substantial saving-up period. This is not being cheap or just not wanting to be taken. This is pass/fail. Happen/Doesn't happen.

I'll find a way. I'm back to being willing to source my own parts again.

I know the smart approach is “don’t do your own research” and “trust the experts” and all. And truly, if money were no object, that would be the way to go for sure.

But it is possible to sift through the chaff to find, simultaneously, below-retail AND high-quality parts.

The last shop that quoted me (today) told me the brands of the parts they planned to source. GPD and Global. Next step up, they said, was OEM Motorcraft parts (Ford’s parts division).

So … here’s a GPD condenser for my vehicle. $84. That might actually be better than the Motorcraft condenser ($194) – for less than half the price , yet – because the GPD one has corrosion protection.

The first shop that quoted me ($2,600 quote upthread) listed a NAPA condenser at $383 – that’s retail price with an undisclosed markup on top. NAPA is a brand I trust, but not at double the cost of the Motorcraft part. Additionally, if I shopped the NAPA condenser myself, I’d pay either $316 or $214 (haven’t yet researched the difference between these two parts).

I can do this. I can do the research and come up with a cherry part. Cheap.

…

I called yet another small shop today to ask for a quote over the phone: Replace the AC condenser and expansion valve on my vehicle, plus vacuuming/refilling the refrigerant (this part is necessary). They asked me up front, “Are you bringing in the parts?” I said “No, quote me with parts you source” but I think I’m going to call them back.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I think you’re at the point where you may need to take the plunge and get a big, costly repair.

You've probably already invested a few hours in this. That’s way past my threshold for throwing up the white flag, but YMMV. I guess some people enjoy the challenge?

If I can't get it below big and costly, it doesn't happen. Period. Not without a substantial saving-up period. This is not being cheap or just not wanting to be taken. This is pass/fail. Happen/Doesn't happen.

I'll find a way. I'm back to being willing to source my own parts again.

I know the smart approach is “don’t do your own research” and “trust the experts” and all. And truly, if money were no object, that would be the way to go for sure.

But it is possible to sift through the chaff to find, simultaneously, below-retail AND high-quality parts.

The last shop that quoted me (today) told me the brands of the parts they planned to source. GPD and Global. Next step up, they said, was OEM Motorcraft parts (Ford’s parts division).

So … here’s a GPD condenser for my vehicle. $84. That might actually be better than the Motorcraft condenser ($194) – for less than half the price , yet – because the GPD one has corrosion protection.

The first shop that quoted me ($2,600 quote upthread) listed a NAPA condenser at $383 – that’s retail price with an undisclosed markup on top. NAPA is a brand I trust, but not at double the cost of the Motorcraft part. Additionally, if I shopped the NAPA condenser myself, I’d pay either $316 or $214 (haven’t yet researched the difference between these two parts).

I can do this. I can do the research and come up with a cherry part. Cheap.

…

I called yet another small shop today to ask for a quote over the phone: Replace the AC condenser and expansion valve on my vehicle, plus vacuuming/refilling the refrigerant (this part is necessary). They asked me up front, “Are you bringing in the parts?” I said “No, quote me with parts you source” but I think I’m going to call them back.

I‘m not saying blindly trust “experts”, nor make zero attempt(s) to get the lowest price on the repair. I‘m just adding your time/effort to the cost side of the equation, as it seems like you’re investing a bit of each.

Heck, I’d rather sell body fluids to offset the hassle, as this process seems onerous, but all our priorities are different. Good luck.