Baltimore: The Next Ferguson? (1 Viewer)

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I don't know if I can pull off this post.

I have a problem with the indictment. Oh, it is not that I believe that there is any lack of evidence to support the charges. I think that just what has been made public supports the charges. A charge doesn't change a presumption of innocence or the ability to defend the action in answering the separate question of guilt. My problem isn't with any of this.

Instead my problem is that the indictment "says" that this "crime" was the result of six "bad" cops. I'd like to believe that, but I don't. I doubt that these six cops are bad people. I believe that they were dedicated to the goal "to protect and serve". That they were doing the job that they were hired to do. That they were doing the job the same way they had always done it, the same way that their peers perform the job everyday. While I think the community in West Baltimore would of coursed be appalled finding out that this happened - just like the rest of us there wouldn't have been a powder keg if this was just a few bad apples.

So I just can't come to accept that this is an isolated incident with six "bad cops" breaking every policy and procedure and training. No, I think these were likely six good officers practicing following questionable policies with bad procedures and inappropriate "secondary" training. Oh I so want to be wrong about this!

As for the police officers I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they were unlucky enough to be the ones where everything finally went wrong and the world noticed. I feel sorry for them exactly the same way I feel sorry for the Florida A&M band members that hazed the drum major to death. Which coincidentally enough.

Hopefully this is somewhat coherent.

I get the sentiment, but fundamentally a guy was shackled and in the custody of 6 officers and died as a result of a broken neck while in that custody. They became responsible for him as soon as they took control of him, and certainly they became responsible for him once his arms and legs were bound. At that point he literally had no ability to take care of himself. As far as the individual officers, I don't feel sorry for them at all. We all have to take personal responsibility for our own decisions and actions. "It's how we do it" isn't a defense, it's shirking personal responsibility. It's just blame-shifting.

Except for the sentiment of feeling sorry for the officers, I don't really disagree with any of this. Assuming there isn't something we don't know the six deserve the same kind of fate as the fifteen band members.

 

[General Tso]

I hope they take their time with the trials. I'm up for jury duty next month in Baltimore city and got a summons for the state court, but no date yet.I'd do almost anything to not be on a jury for those cops.

The other prisoner in the van, who simply said that he heard Gray thrashing around in the van, said he fears for his life.

Who simply said? He went beyond saying that Gray was "thrashing around" to claim that Gray was trying to injure himself. And according to NBC Baltimore affiliate, Gray was unresponsive even before this prisoner was loaded in the van. It looks like this guy was lying.

The prisoner, Dante Allen, told police when they arrived at the station that he heard Gray thrashing around trying to hurt himself. That is per a police report obtained by the Washington Post. They got the age of the prisoner wrong, so there is some legitimate concern about what else they could have gotten wrong, but that's what was reported.This is where it gets really interesting.... Dante Allen's identity was being protected for fear that he'd be labelled as a snitch, which was later supported by Allen saying he "feared for his life" after the story came out. So how did the story come out? Nobody knows. But what we do know is this. The reporter that broke the story was a Baltimore TV reporter named Jayne Miller. So where could Jayne have gotten that information about Dante Allen? Who would have benefited by having Allen get outed like that, and potentially ratchet down his story out of fear as he subsequently did? The Prosecution, right?

And guess who Jayne Miller's lesbian partner is? Would you believe none other than the lead prosecutor in Mosby's office, the official who led the investigation in the Freddie Gray case, attorney Janice Bledsoe?

You can't make this #### up.

 

[General Tso]

I don't know if I can pull off this post.

I have a problem with the indictment. Oh, it is not that I believe that there is any lack of evidence to support the charges. I think that just what has been made public supports the charges. A charge doesn't change a presumption of innocence or the ability to defend the action in answering the separate question of guilt. My problem isn't with any of this.

Instead my problem is that the indictment "says" that this "crime" was the result of six "bad" cops. I'd like to believe that, but I don't. I doubt that these six cops are bad people. I believe that they were dedicated to the goal "to protect and serve". That they were doing the job that they were hired to do. That they were doing the job the same way they had always done it, the same way that their peers perform the job everyday. While I think the community in West Baltimore would of coursed be appalled finding out that this happened - just like the rest of us there wouldn't have been a powder keg if this was just a few bad apples.

So I just can't come to accept that this is an isolated incident with six "bad cops" breaking every policy and procedure and training. No, I think these were likely six good officers practicing following questionable policies with bad procedures and inappropriate "secondary" training. Oh I so want to be wrong about this!

As for the police officers I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they were unlucky enough to be the ones where everything finally went wrong and the world noticed. I feel sorry for them exactly the same way I feel sorry for the Florida A&M band members that hazed the drum major to death. Which coincidentally enough.

Hopefully this is somewhat coherent.

I get the sentiment, but fundamentally a guy was shackled and in the custody of 6 officers and died as a result of a broken neck while in that custody. They became responsible for him as soon as they took control of him, and certainly they became responsible for him once his arms and legs were bound. At that point he literally had no ability to take care of himself. As far as the individual officers, I don't feel sorry for them at all. We all have to take personal responsibility for our own decisions and actions. "It's how we do it" isn't a defense, it's shirking personal responsibility. It's just blame-shifting.

So you think the evidence shown to date supports a murder charge for the driver?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I hope they take their time with the trials. I'm up for jury duty next month in Baltimore city and got a summons for the state court, but no date yet.I'd do almost anything to not be on a jury for those cops.

The other prisoner in the van, who simply said that he heard Gray thrashing around in the van, said he fears for his life.

Who simply said? He went beyond saying that Gray was "thrashing around" to claim that Gray was trying to injure himself. And according to NBC Baltimore affiliate, Gray was unresponsive even before this prisoner was loaded in the van. It looks like this guy was lying.

The prisoner, Dante Allen, told police when they arrived at the station that he heard Gray thrashing around trying to hurt himself. That is per a police report obtained by the Washington Post. They got the age of the prisoner wrong, so there is some legitimate concern about what else they could have gotten wrong, but that's what was reported.

That got more than his age wrong,

 

[General Tso]

I hope they take their time with the trials. I'm up for jury duty next month in Baltimore city and got a summons for the state court, but no date yet.I'd do almost anything to not be on a jury for those cops.

The other prisoner in the van, who simply said that he heard Gray thrashing around in the van, said he fears for his life.

Who simply said? He went beyond saying that Gray was "thrashing around" to claim that Gray was trying to injure himself. And according to NBC Baltimore affiliate, Gray was unresponsive even before this prisoner was loaded in the van. It looks like this guy was lying.

The prisoner, Dante Allen, told police when they arrived at the station that he heard Gray thrashing around trying to hurt himself. That is per a police report obtained by the Washington Post. They got the age of the prisoner wrong, so there is some legitimate concern about what else they could have gotten wrong, but that's what was reported.

That got more than his age wrong,

Care to expound? The cited Allen's statement exactly as it appeared in an affidavit for a search warrant application that they were given a copy of. Maybe they changed his age to protect his identity?

 

[Mark Davis]

Meanwhile the happiest guy about all this is the old guy in Tulsa who shot the guy instead of hitting him with the taser.

 

[squistion]

I hope they take their time with the trials. I'm up for jury duty next month in Baltimore city and got a summons for the state court, but no date yet.I'd do almost anything to not be on a jury for those cops.

The other prisoner in the van, who simply said that he heard Gray thrashing around in the van, said he fears for his life.

Who simply said? He went beyond saying that Gray was "thrashing around" to claim that Gray was trying to injure himself. And according to NBC Baltimore affiliate, Gray was unresponsive even before this prisoner was loaded in the van. It looks like this guy was lying.

The prisoner, Dante Allen, told police when they arrived at the station that he heard Gray thrashing around trying to hurt himself. That is per a police report obtained by the Washington Post.

You can't make this #### up.

So you are still running with the discredited Washington Post story? Indeed you can't make this #### up.

 

[General Tso]

I hope they take their time with the trials. I'm up for jury duty next month in Baltimore city and got a summons for the state court, but no date yet.I'd do almost anything to not be on a jury for those cops.

The other prisoner in the van, who simply said that he heard Gray thrashing around in the van, said he fears for his life.

Who simply said? He went beyond saying that Gray was "thrashing around" to claim that Gray was trying to injure himself. And according to NBC Baltimore affiliate, Gray was unresponsive even before this prisoner was loaded in the van. It looks like this guy was lying.

The prisoner, Dante Allen, told police when they arrived at the station that he heard Gray thrashing around trying to hurt himself. That is per a police report obtained by the Washington Post.You can't make this #### up.

So you are still running with the discredited Washington Post story? Indeed you can't make this #### up.

Just because you discredit it doesn't mean ####. Are you denying that there was an affidavit for a search warrant obtained by the Post with Dante Allen's statement that he heard Gray "trying to hurt himself"? That is the importance of the report, and the only reason we are talking about it, you do realize that.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I hope they take their time with the trials. I'm up for jury duty next month in Baltimore city and got a summons for the state court, but no date yet.I'd do almost anything to not be on a jury for those cops.

The other prisoner in the van, who simply said that he heard Gray thrashing around in the van, said he fears for his life.

Who simply said? He went beyond saying that Gray was "thrashing around" to claim that Gray was trying to injure himself. And according to NBC Baltimore affiliate, Gray was unresponsive even before this prisoner was loaded in the van. It looks like this guy was lying.

The prisoner, Dante Allen, told police when they arrived at the station that he heard Gray thrashing around trying to hurt himself. That is per a police report obtained by the Washington Post. They got the age of the prisoner wrong, so there is some legitimate concern about what else they could have gotten wrong, but that's what was reported.

That got more than his age wrong,

Care to expound?

"The prisoner, who is currently in jail,"

Allen said that once they got to the Western District, officers started to write out a citation for him but didn't even present it to him and instead took him down to the homicide unit.

The third stop was to put the other prisoner — a 38-year-old man accused of violating a protective order — into the van.

West Baltimore resident Donta Allen, 22, was the second man loaded into the police van near the end of the run on April 12.

Allen was picked up by city police at the corner of Pennsylvania and North avenues on a suspicion of stealing.

Oh, and per your link "WJZ‘s Mike Schuh is the first to speak with Donta Allen about what he heard." Mike Schuh is not Jayne Miller.

 

[squistion]

So you are still running with the discredited Washington Post story? Indeed you can't make this #### up.

Just because you discredit it doesn't mean ####. Are you denying that there was an affidavit for a search warrant obtained by the Post with Dante Allen's statement that he heard Gray "trying to hurt himself"? That is the importance of the report, and the only reason we are talking about it, you do realize that.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/04/30/baltimore-reporter-disputes-details-of-leaked-p/203482

Baltimore Reporter Disputes Details Of Leaked Police Department Report On Freddie Gray's Arrest

Baltimore's WBAL-TV investigative reporter Jayne Miller highlighted serious concerns with a Washington Post report that a prisoner who was in the van with Freddie Gray heard Gray trying to injure himself, pointing to WBAL's reporting from medical experts on Gray's injuries.

On April 29, The Washington Post published a report, based on a police document obtained by the paper, that said a prisoner who was in the police van with Gray heard him "banging against the walls" and thought he "was intentionally trying to injure himself." The paper noted that the prisoner "was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him," and included comment from Gray's family attorney.

But WBAL-TV's Jayne Miller says her reporting undermines this claim. She appeared on the April 30 edition of MSNBC's Morning Joe, where she explained that "according to our sources familiar with this investigation, at that stop when that prisoner is loaded, Gray is unresponsive -- not able to bang his head against the wall." Miller went on to say that the preliminary autopsy findings indicated no injury to Gray other than to his spine, although the family says his voice box was injured. The Baltimore Sun reported on April 25 that "[p]olice have said that a preliminary report on Gray's autopsy showed he had no injuries except to his spinal cord." Miller also noted that their reporting indicated "the medical evidence does not suggest at all that he was able to injure himself," because "the force of this injury" was "akin to have the force involved in a car accident." This was also reported in the Baltimore Sun.

Miller had previously tweeted on April 23 that the Baltimore police commissioner said the other prisoner reported Gray was "mostly quiet."

The report was also called into question by Dr. Marc Siegel on Fox News' Fox & Friends, who said there was "no way that you could sever your spine by bashing your head against a wall or side of a car," and added there was "no chance" that Gray could have injured himself "to the extent where he would sever his spine."

 

[General Tso]

So you are still running with the discredited Washington Post story? Indeed you can't make this #### up.

Just because you discredit it doesn't mean ####. Are you denying that there was an affidavit for a search warrant obtained by the Post with Dante Allen's statement that he heard Gray "trying to hurt himself"? That is the importance of the report, and the only reason we are talking about it, you do realize that.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/04/30/baltimore-reporter-disputes-details-of-leaked-p/203482

Baltimore Reporter Disputes Details Of Leaked Police Department Report On Freddie Gray's Arrest

Baltimore's WBAL-TV investigative reporter Jayne Miller highlighted serious concerns with a Washington Post report that a prisoner who was in the van with Freddie Gray heard Gray trying to injure himself, pointing to WBAL's reporting from medical experts on Gray's injuries.

On April 29, The Washington Post published a report, based on a police document obtained by the paper, that said a prisoner who was in the police van with Gray heard him "banging against the walls" and thought he "was intentionally trying to injure himself." The paper noted that the prisoner "was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him," and included comment from Gray's family attorney.

But WBAL-TV's Jayne Miller says her reporting undermines this claim. She appeared on the April 30 edition of MSNBC's Morning Joe, where she explained that "according to our sources familiar with this investigation, at that stop when that prisoner is loaded, Gray is unresponsive -- not able to bang his head against the wall." Miller went on to say that the preliminary autopsy findings indicated no injury to Gray other than to his spine, although the family says his voice box was injured. The Baltimore Sun reported on April 25 that "[p]olice have said that a preliminary report on Gray's autopsy showed he had no injuries except to his spinal cord." Miller also noted that their reporting indicated "the medical evidence does not suggest at all that he was able to injure himself," because "the force of this injury" was "akin to have the force involved in a car accident." This was also reported in the Baltimore Sun.

Miller had previously tweeted on April 23 that the Baltimore police commissioner said the other prisoner reported Gray was "mostly quiet."

The report was also called into question by Dr. Marc Siegel on Fox News' Fox & Friends, who said there was "no way that you could sever your spine by bashing your head against a wall or side of a car," and added there was "no chance" that Gray could have injured himself "to the extent where he would sever his spine."

Oh I see. The Washington Post article, citing a hard copy affidavit they have in hand that spells out Dante Allen's word for word description of what he heard, is "discredited" in your words because the lesbian lover of the lead prosecutor in the case claims she has a source that says "at that stop when that prisoner is loaded, Gray is unresponsive -- not able to bang his head against the wall."

You've got a future in Baltimore city government.

 

[General Tso]

This is a better recap of the interview with the Baltimore cop on Hannity tonight:

http://www.discussionist.com/1014134135

A Baltimore police officer was interviewed on Fox NewsHe was shadowed and his voice altered so he could remain anonymous on air, an understandable request considering the circumstances.

He said that the area where the police spotted Gray is notorious for very heavy drug activity. The officers who made the arrest were working crime suppression and drug control. They saw Gray make what appeared to be a hand-to-hand transaction (where drugs and money are exchanged). Both Gray and the man he was making the hand-to-hand transaction with ran...in different directions.

If this is true, it would negate the "He was arrested for making eye contact / for no reason" mantra. He was a known drug dealer who was allegedly seen making a drug transaction in a high crime area, and then running when seen by police.

The officer also stated that while he was known to deal drugs, Gray was not known to use drugs. YET....per this officer, the preliminary toxicology report that was performed by the University of Maryland using blood retrieved while Gray was being treated in shock trauma ER, showed that he had Heroin and marijuana in his blood.

When caught selling drugs and running, suspects often ingest the drugs in their possession. If he was not a regular user of heroin, yet he ingested heroin he had on his person that he had planned to sell...in order to avoid a drug charge if caught... could this have caused him to convulse in the van, causing his injuries? Convulsions can be extremely violent, and the medical examiner did say that Gray's injury occurred in the van. Gray having convulsions could also explain the banging sound that the 2nd prisoner heard.

As well, the officers maintained that while he was irate, throughout the stops, Gray was talking and yelling and did not appear to be in any distress. The only indication he needed medical attention was his demanding that he get medical attention....which is a common ploy they see because those arrested would rather go to the hospital than straight to central booking. This officer said that because it is used so commonly, that if they do not see any respiratory distress, or any other signs of injury or distress, they don't call a medic. He said that this was what occurred with Freddie. Gray had demanded an inhaler, yet he was yelling very loudly...which he would not have been able to do if he did indeed need an inhaler. So Gray had already shown that he was trying to fake that he needed medical care.

Nothing in the police report nor the autopsy indicates that he was beaten or roughly handled so as to cause the injury.

The last revelation that I found interesting is this. When Mr. Allen (the 2nd prisoner) gave his story to the investigators, he told them that he heard the banging. He also said that there were no violent stops or "rough ride." When Allen gave this information to the investigators, he was anonymous to the public.

Jayne Miller, the reporter that revealed Mr. Allen's identity in a news story, thus removing the safety of his anonymity, is very close friends with Deputy State Attorney Janice Bledsoe. What is the chance that Bledsoe pressured Miller to reveal Allen's name to the public...knowing that he had to live in that neighborhood and would recant out of fear for his safety?

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

I don't know if I can pull off this post.

I have a problem with the indictment. Oh, it is not that I believe that there is any lack of evidence to support the charges. I think that just what has been made public supports the charges. A charge doesn't change a presumption of innocence or the ability to defend the action in answering the separate question of guilt. My problem isn't with any of this.

Instead my problem is that the indictment "says" that this "crime" was the result of six "bad" cops. I'd like to believe that, but I don't. I doubt that these six cops are bad people. I believe that they were dedicated to the goal "to protect and serve". That they were doing the job that they were hired to do. That they were doing the job the same way they had always done it, the same way that their peers perform the job everyday. While I think the community in West Baltimore would of coursed be appalled finding out that this happened - just like the rest of us there wouldn't have been a powder keg if this was just a few bad apples.

So I just can't come to accept that this is an isolated incident with six "bad cops" breaking every policy and procedure and training. No, I think these were likely six good officers practicing following questionable policies with bad procedures and inappropriate "secondary" training. Oh I so want to be wrong about this!

As for the police officers I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they were unlucky enough to be the ones where everything finally went wrong and the world noticed. I feel sorry for them exactly the same way I feel sorry for the Florida A&M band members that hazed the drum major to death. Which coincidentally enough.

Hopefully this is somewhat coherent.

I get the sentiment, but fundamentally a guy was shackled and in the custody of 6 officers and died as a result of a broken neck while in that custody. They became responsible for him as soon as they took control of him, and certainly they became responsible for him once his arms and legs were bound. At that point he literally had no ability to take care of himself. As far as the individual officers, I don't feel sorry for them at all. We all have to take personal responsibility for our own decisions and actions. "It's how we do it" isn't a defense, it's shirking personal responsibility. It's just blame-shifting.

So you think the evidence shown to date supports a murder charge for the driver?

I dunno. My presumption is that the prosecutor has a tad more information than the general public. I'm assuming there is some factual basis for a pro-police prosecutor to bring the charges she did. But hey, maybe she's just incompetent and Internet investigators are better at her job than she is despite having only a small percentage of the factual information she has.

ETA: "Depraved heart" murder is acting with reckless disregard to human life. Here's a sample jury charge (below). Doesn't sound like a stretch to me, depending on the specific facts that we don't know

Second-degree murder is the killing of another person while acting with an extreme disregard for human life. In order to convict the defendant of second-degree murder, the State must prove:

(1) that the defendant caused the death of (name);

(2) that the defendant's conduct created a very high risk to the life of (name); and

(3) that the defendant, conscious of such risk, acted with extreme disregard of the life-endangering consequences.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

So you are still running with the discredited Washington Post story? Indeed you can't make this #### up.

Just because you discredit it doesn't mean ####. Are you denying that there was an affidavit for a search warrant obtained by the Post with Dante Allen's statement that he heard Gray "trying to hurt himself"? That is the importance of the report, and the only reason we are talking about it, you do realize that.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/04/30/baltimore-reporter-disputes-details-of-leaked-p/203482Baltimore Reporter Disputes Details Of Leaked Police Department Report On Freddie Gray's Arrest

Baltimore's WBAL-TV investigative reporter Jayne Miller highlighted serious concerns with a Washington Post report that a prisoner who was in the van with Freddie Gray heard Gray trying to injure himself, pointing to WBAL's reporting from medical experts on Gray's injuries.

On April 29, The Washington Post published a report, based on a police document obtained by the paper, that said a prisoner who was in the police van with Gray heard him "banging against the walls" and thought he "was intentionally trying to injure himself." The paper noted that the prisoner "was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him," and included comment from Gray's family attorney.

But WBAL-TV's Jayne Miller says her reporting undermines this claim. She appeared on the April 30 edition of MSNBC's Morning Joe, where she explained that "according to our sources familiar with this investigation, at that stop when that prisoner is loaded, Gray is unresponsive -- not able to bang his head against the wall." Miller went on to say that the preliminary autopsy findings indicated no injury to Gray other than to his spine, although the family says his voice box was injured. The Baltimore Sun reported on April 25 that "[p]olice have said that a preliminary report on Gray's autopsy showed he had no injuries except to his spinal cord." Miller also noted that their reporting indicated "the medical evidence does not suggest at all that he was able to injure himself," because "the force of this injury" was "akin to have the force involved in a car accident." This was also reported in the Baltimore Sun.

Miller had previously tweeted on April 23 that the Baltimore police commissioner said the other prisoner reported Gray was "mostly quiet."

The report was also called into question by Dr. Marc Siegel on Fox News' Fox & Friends, who said there was "no way that you could sever your spine by bashing your head against a wall or side of a car," and added there was "no chance" that Gray could have injured himself "to the extent where he would sever his spine."

Oh I see. The Washington Post article, citing a hard copy affidavit they have in hand that spells out Dante Allen's word for word description of what he heard, is "discredited" in your words because the lesbian lover of the lead prosecutor in the case claims she has a source that says "at that stop when that prisoner is loaded, Gray is unresponsive -- not able to bang his head against the wall."

You've got a future in Baltimore city government.

Nah. The Affidavit they have has been reported to be a search warrant affidavit. That's an affidavit for an officer, not the witness. The officer's affidavit will typically include the officer's assertion of what the witness said if that assertion is what is needed to get the warrant. It isn't the witnesses oath statement if it's a search warrant affidavit.

I know some outlets have made that leap, but that's either sloppiness or incompetence or intentionally misleading.

If it isn't from a search warrant affidavit then the outlets are all misreporting that for any of the reasons above.

 

[General Tso]

Kind of a rag newspaper, but here's your murderer, Caesar Goodson - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3064698/Cop-charged-murder-Freddie-Gray-told-family-begged-arresting-officers-restrain-dead-man-following-protocol-fears-wife-children-attacked.html

Cop charged with murder of Freddie Gray told family he begged arresting officers to restrain dead man and now lives in fear of revenge attacks on wife and children.Family tell Daily Mail Online he is distraught at Gray's death, 'crying uncontrollably' and fears his wife and children will be targeted. A source close to the Goodson family say the 16-year veteran has been plagued by flashbacks and nightmares over the death of Gray who died April 19 from injuries sustained in the back of the paddy wagon driven by Goodson.

Goodson, 45, says he followed protocol throughout transporting Gray, who died week after arrested. Sources told Daily Mail Online he is distraught with himself for not personally checking the 25-year-old prisoner was strapped in adequately - but does not accept he is criminally responsible.

He told them audio recording exists of him begging arresting officers to restrain Gray but they did not belt him in. Caesar is a strictly by the books guy,' the family source said. ‘The paddy wagon driver's job is to drive the wagon. 'His job primarily is transport. If something is wrong you call the arresting officers who are following you - which is what he did.

Officer has never fired his weapon in 16 years with force and family believe prosecution is 'political'

'Caesar would have been much better suited to being some sort of community officer because he's so good at talking to people. He's a gentle person.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

Kind of a rag newspaper, but here's your murderer, Caesar Goodson - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3064698/Cop-charged-murder-Freddie-Gray-told-family-begged-arresting-officers-restrain-dead-man-following-protocol-fears-wife-children-attacked.html

Cop charged with murder of Freddie Gray told family he begged arresting officers to restrain dead man and now lives in fear of revenge attacks on wife and children.

Family tell Daily Mail Online he is distraught at Gray's death, 'crying uncontrollably' and fears his wife and children will be targeted. A source close to the Goodson family say the 16-year veteran has been plagued by flashbacks and nightmares over the death of Gray who died April 19 from injuries sustained in the back of the paddy wagon driven by Goodson.

Goodson, 45, says he followed protocol throughout transporting Gray, who died week after arrested. Sources told Daily Mail Online he is distraught with himself for not personally checking the 25-year-old prisoner was strapped in adequately - but does not accept he is criminally responsible.

He told them audio recording exists of him begging arresting officers to restrain Gray but they did not belt him in. Caesar is a strictly by the books guy,' the family source said. The paddy wagon driver's job is to drive the wagon. 'His job primarily is transport. If something is wrong you call the arresting officers who are following you - which is what he did.

Officer has never fired his weapon in 16 years with force and family believe prosecution is 'political'

'Caesar would have been much better suited to being some sort of community officer because he's so good at talking to people. He's a gentle person.

So his family thinks he's a good guy and shouldn't be convicted. Is that supposed to be important? The dead guy's family thinks he was a good guy and someone should go to jail for killing him. Neither are real good folks to turn to for objectivity, especially since none of them know anything.

 

[General Tso]

I don't know if I can pull off this post.

I have a problem with the indictment. Oh, it is not that I believe that there is any lack of evidence to support the charges. I think that just what has been made public supports the charges. A charge doesn't change a presumption of innocence or the ability to defend the action in answering the separate question of guilt. My problem isn't with any of this.

Instead my problem is that the indictment "says" that this "crime" was the result of six "bad" cops. I'd like to believe that, but I don't. I doubt that these six cops are bad people. I believe that they were dedicated to the goal "to protect and serve". That they were doing the job that they were hired to do. That they were doing the job the same way they had always done it, the same way that their peers perform the job everyday. While I think the community in West Baltimore would of coursed be appalled finding out that this happened - just like the rest of us there wouldn't have been a powder keg if this was just a few bad apples.

So I just can't come to accept that this is an isolated incident with six "bad cops" breaking every policy and procedure and training. No, I think these were likely six good officers practicing following questionable policies with bad procedures and inappropriate "secondary" training. Oh I so want to be wrong about this!

As for the police officers I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they were unlucky enough to be the ones where everything finally went wrong and the world noticed. I feel sorry for them exactly the same way I feel sorry for the Florida A&M band members that hazed the drum major to death. Which coincidentally enough.

Hopefully this is somewhat coherent.

I get the sentiment, but fundamentally a guy was shackled and in the custody of 6 officers and died as a result of a broken neck while in that custody. They became responsible for him as soon as they took control of him, and certainly they became responsible for him once his arms and legs were bound. At that point he literally had no ability to take care of himself. As far as the individual officers, I don't feel sorry for them at all. We all have to take personal responsibility for our own decisions and actions. "It's how we do it" isn't a defense, it's shirking personal responsibility. It's just blame-shifting.

So you think the evidence shown to date supports a murder charge for the driver?

I dunno. My presumption is that the prosecutor has a tad more information than the general public. I'm assuming there is some factual basis for a pro-police prosecutor to bring the charges she did.But hey, maybe she's just incompetent and Internet investigators are better at her job than she is despite having only a small percentage of the factual information she has.

ETA: "Depraved heart" murder is acting with reckless disregard to human life. Here's a sample jury charge (below). Doesn't sound like a stretch to me, depending on the specific facts that we don't know

Second-degree murder is the killing of another person while acting with an extreme disregard for human life. In order to convict the defendant of second-degree murder, the State must prove:

(1) that the defendant caused the death of (name);

(2) that the defendant's conduct created a very high risk to the life of (name); and

(3) that the defendant, conscious of such risk, acted with extreme disregard of the life-endangering consequences.

Interesting I don't here the outrage from you this time around about the lack of information and transparency about the investigation.

 

[General Tso]

Kind of a rag newspaper, but here's your murderer, Caesar Goodson - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3064698/Cop-charged-murder-Freddie-Gray-told-family-begged-arresting-officers-restrain-dead-man-following-protocol-fears-wife-children-attacked.html

Cop charged with murder of Freddie Gray told family he begged arresting officers to restrain dead man and now lives in fear of revenge attacks on wife and children.

Family tell Daily Mail Online he is distraught at Gray's death, 'crying uncontrollably' and fears his wife and children will be targeted. A source close to the Goodson family say the 16-year veteran has been plagued by flashbacks and nightmares over the death of Gray who died April 19 from injuries sustained in the back of the paddy wagon driven by Goodson.

Goodson, 45, says he followed protocol throughout transporting Gray, who died week after arrested. Sources told Daily Mail Online he is distraught with himself for not personally checking the 25-year-old prisoner was strapped in adequately - but does not accept he is criminally responsible.

He told them audio recording exists of him begging arresting officers to restrain Gray but they did not belt him in. Caesar is a strictly by the books guy,' the family source said. The paddy wagon driver's job is to drive the wagon. 'His job primarily is transport. If something is wrong you call the arresting officers who are following you - which is what he did.

Officer has never fired his weapon in 16 years with force and family believe prosecution is 'political'

'Caesar would have been much better suited to being some sort of community officer because he's so good at talking to people. He's a gentle person.

So his family thinks he's a good guy and shouldn't be convicted. Is that supposed to be important? The dead guy's family thinks he was a good guy and someone should go to jail for killing him. Neither are real good folks to turn to for objectivity, especially since none of them know anything.

Yeah, I assume people can think for themselves and come to that conclusion, but thanks for pointing it out. We'd be lost without you lawyers.

I posted it primarily because of the bolded information, which is the first I have heard of this report.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

I don't know if I can pull off this post.

I have a problem with the indictment. Oh, it is not that I believe that there is any lack of evidence to support the charges. I think that just what has been made public supports the charges. A charge doesn't change a presumption of innocence or the ability to defend the action in answering the separate question of guilt. My problem isn't with any of this.

Instead my problem is that the indictment "says" that this "crime" was the result of six "bad" cops. I'd like to believe that, but I don't. I doubt that these six cops are bad people. I believe that they were dedicated to the goal "to protect and serve". That they were doing the job that they were hired to do. That they were doing the job the same way they had always done it, the same way that their peers perform the job everyday. While I think the community in West Baltimore would of coursed be appalled finding out that this happened - just like the rest of us there wouldn't have been a powder keg if this was just a few bad apples.

So I just can't come to accept that this is an isolated incident with six "bad cops" breaking every policy and procedure and training. No, I think these were likely six good officers practicing following questionable policies with bad procedures and inappropriate "secondary" training. Oh I so want to be wrong about this!

As for the police officers I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they were unlucky enough to be the ones where everything finally went wrong and the world noticed. I feel sorry for them exactly the same way I feel sorry for the Florida A&M band members that hazed the drum major to death. Which coincidentally enough.

Hopefully this is somewhat coherent.

I get the sentiment, but fundamentally a guy was shackled and in the custody of 6 officers and died as a result of a broken neck while in that custody. They became responsible for him as soon as they took control of him, and certainly they became responsible for him once his arms and legs were bound. At that point he literally had no ability to take care of himself. As far as the individual officers, I don't feel sorry for them at all. We all have to take personal responsibility for our own decisions and actions. "It's how we do it" isn't a defense, it's shirking personal responsibility. It's just blame-shifting.

So you think the evidence shown to date supports a murder charge for the driver?

I dunno. My presumption is that the prosecutor has a tad more information than the general public. I'm assuming there is some factual basis for a pro-police prosecutor to bring the charges she did.But hey, maybe she's just incompetent and Internet investigators are better at her job than she is despite having only a small percentage of the factual information she has.

ETA: "Depraved heart" murder is acting with reckless disregard to human life. Here's a sample jury charge (below). Doesn't sound like a stretch to me, depending on the specific facts that we don't know

Second-degree murder is the killing of another person while acting with an extreme disregard for human life. In order to convict the defendant of second-degree murder, the State must prove:

(1) that the defendant caused the death of (name);

(2) that the defendant's conduct created a very high risk to the life of (name); and

(3) that the defendant, conscious of such risk, acted with extreme disregard of the life-endangering consequences.

Interesting I don't here the outrage from you this time around about the lack of information and transparency about the investigation.

My "outrage" on the other case stemmed from the police department reporting the killer's version as fact.

As far as facts in that case, we apparently had a lot more of them than the police did.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

Kind of a rag newspaper, but here's your murderer, Caesar Goodson - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3064698/Cop-charged-murder-Freddie-Gray-told-family-begged-arresting-officers-restrain-dead-man-following-protocol-fears-wife-children-attacked.html

Cop charged with murder of Freddie Gray told family he begged arresting officers to restrain dead man and now lives in fear of revenge attacks on wife and children.

Family tell Daily Mail Online he is distraught at Gray's death, 'crying uncontrollably' and fears his wife and children will be targeted. A source close to the Goodson family say the 16-year veteran has been plagued by flashbacks and nightmares over the death of Gray who died April 19 from injuries sustained in the back of the paddy wagon driven by Goodson.

Goodson, 45, says he followed protocol throughout transporting Gray, who died week after arrested. Sources told Daily Mail Online he is distraught with himself for not personally checking the 25-year-old prisoner was strapped in adequately - but does not accept he is criminally responsible.

He told them audio recording exists of him begging arresting officers to restrain Gray but they did not belt him in. Caesar is a strictly by the books guy,' the family source said. The paddy wagon driver's job is to drive the wagon. 'His job primarily is transport. If something is wrong you call the arresting officers who are following you - which is what he did.

Officer has never fired his weapon in 16 years with force and family believe prosecution is 'political'

'Caesar would have been much better suited to being some sort of community officer because he's so good at talking to people. He's a gentle person.

So his family thinks he's a good guy and shouldn't be convicted. Is that supposed to be important? The dead guy's family thinks he was a good guy and someone should go to jail for killing him. Neither are real good folks to turn to for objectivity, especially since none of them know anything.

Yeah, I assume people can think for themselves and come to that conclusion, but thanks for pointing it out. We'd be lost without you lawyers.I posted it primarily because of the bolded information, which is the first I have heard of this report.

Come on. You posted that for more than just the bolded. Why else say "here's your murderer"? It's a sympathetic piece on the guy. That's why you posted it. OK, I'll bite. So his family said he said there's audio of him begging that the guy they killed be restrained before they killed him because it wasn't safe to transport him that way. I'm guessing that's going to be used by the prosecution to help with the 3rd element of "depraved heart" murder.

But I thought it was a drug-induced suicide anyway.

 

[General Tso]

I don't know if I can pull off this post.

I have a problem with the indictment. Oh, it is not that I believe that there is any lack of evidence to support the charges. I think that just what has been made public supports the charges. A charge doesn't change a presumption of innocence or the ability to defend the action in answering the separate question of guilt. My problem isn't with any of this.

Instead my problem is that the indictment "says" that this "crime" was the result of six "bad" cops. I'd like to believe that, but I don't. I doubt that these six cops are bad people. I believe that they were dedicated to the goal "to protect and serve". That they were doing the job that they were hired to do. That they were doing the job the same way they had always done it, the same way that their peers perform the job everyday. While I think the community in West Baltimore would of coursed be appalled finding out that this happened - just like the rest of us there wouldn't have been a powder keg if this was just a few bad apples.

So I just can't come to accept that this is an isolated incident with six "bad cops" breaking every policy and procedure and training. No, I think these were likely six good officers practicing following questionable policies with bad procedures and inappropriate "secondary" training. Oh I so want to be wrong about this!

As for the police officers I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they were unlucky enough to be the ones where everything finally went wrong and the world noticed. I feel sorry for them exactly the same way I feel sorry for the Florida A&M band members that hazed the drum major to death. Which coincidentally enough.

Hopefully this is somewhat coherent.

I get the sentiment, but fundamentally a guy was shackled and in the custody of 6 officers and died as a result of a broken neck while in that custody. They became responsible for him as soon as they took control of him, and certainly they became responsible for him once his arms and legs were bound. At that point he literally had no ability to take care of himself. As far as the individual officers, I don't feel sorry for them at all. We all have to take personal responsibility for our own decisions and actions. "It's how we do it" isn't a defense, it's shirking personal responsibility. It's just blame-shifting.

So you think the evidence shown to date supports a murder charge for the driver?

I dunno. My presumption is that the prosecutor has a tad more information than the general public. I'm assuming there is some factual basis for a pro-police prosecutor to bring the charges she did.But hey, maybe she's just incompetent and Internet investigators are better at her job than she is despite having only a small percentage of the factual information she has.

ETA: "Depraved heart" murder is acting with reckless disregard to human life. Here's a sample jury charge (below). Doesn't sound like a stretch to me, depending on the specific facts that we don't know

Second-degree murder is the killing of another person while acting with an extreme disregard for human life. In order to convict the defendant of second-degree murder, the State must prove:

(1) that the defendant caused the death of (name);

(2) that the defendant's conduct created a very high risk to the life of (name); and

(3) that the defendant, conscious of such risk, acted with extreme disregard of the life-endangering consequences.

Interesting I don't here the outrage from you this time around about the lack of information and transparency about the investigation.

My "outrage" on the other case stemmed from the police department reporting the killer's version as fact.

As far as facts in that case, we apparently had a lot more of them than the police did.

You criticized a police coverup that never existed. You criticized the police for not precisely reporting exactly what they had as evidence at the time, specifically that the police didn't come right out and say "a black man appears to have been shot in the back 5 times". You also criticized the police culture for protecting their own, and flat out said "Anyone who thinks this was headed towards a murder charge without the video is lying to himself." And three weeks later we have what amounts to a case of reckless endangerment, with no smoking gun, yet 6 officers are accused of serious felonies with one accused of murder.

The only common thread I can see here is a dislike for cops.

 

[General Tso]

Kind of a rag newspaper, but here's your murderer, Caesar Goodson - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3064698/Cop-charged-murder-Freddie-Gray-told-family-begged-arresting-officers-restrain-dead-man-following-protocol-fears-wife-children-attacked.html

Cop charged with murder of Freddie Gray told family he begged arresting officers to restrain dead man and now lives in fear of revenge attacks on wife and children.

Family tell Daily Mail Online he is distraught at Gray's death, 'crying uncontrollably' and fears his wife and children will be targeted. A source close to the Goodson family say the 16-year veteran has been plagued by flashbacks and nightmares over the death of Gray who died April 19 from injuries sustained in the back of the paddy wagon driven by Goodson.

Goodson, 45, says he followed protocol throughout transporting Gray, who died week after arrested. Sources told Daily Mail Online he is distraught with himself for not personally checking the 25-year-old prisoner was strapped in adequately - but does not accept he is criminally responsible.

He told them audio recording exists of him begging arresting officers to restrain Gray but they did not belt him in. Caesar is a strictly by the books guy,' the family source said. The paddy wagon driver's job is to drive the wagon. 'His job primarily is transport. If something is wrong you call the arresting officers who are following you - which is what he did.

Officer has never fired his weapon in 16 years with force and family believe prosecution is 'political'

'Caesar would have been much better suited to being some sort of community officer because he's so good at talking to people. He's a gentle person.

So his family thinks he's a good guy and shouldn't be convicted. Is that supposed to be important? The dead guy's family thinks he was a good guy and someone should go to jail for killing him. Neither are real good folks to turn to for objectivity, especially since none of them know anything.

Yeah, I assume people can think for themselves and come to that conclusion, but thanks for pointing it out. We'd be lost without you lawyers.I posted it primarily because of the bolded information, which is the first I have heard of this report.

Come on. You posted that for more than just the bolded. Why else say "here's your murderer"? It's a sympathetic piece on the guy. That's why you posted it.OK, I'll bite. So his family said he said there's audio of him begging that the guy they killed be restrained before they killed him because it wasn't safe to transport him that way. I'm guessing that's going to be used by the prosecution to help with the 3rd element of "depraved heart" murder.

But I thought it was a drug-induced suicide anyway.

I'll cut to the chase. Do you think that not buckling someone in, or not adequately recognizing the signs that someone is in life threatening distress, is conduct that created a very high risk to the life of Freddie Gray? And that Goodson was conscious of such risk, and acted with extreme disregard of the life-endangering consequences? And you know that how exactly?

 

[rockaction]

So you are still running with the discredited Washington Post story? Indeed you can't make this #### up.

Just because you discredit it doesn't mean ####. Are you denying that there was an affidavit for a search warrant obtained by the Post with Dante Allen's statement that he heard Gray "trying to hurt himself"? That is the importance of the report, and the only reason we are talking about it, you do realize that.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/04/30/baltimore-reporter-disputes-details-of-leaked-p/203482

Baltimore Reporter Disputes Details Of Leaked Police Department Report On Freddie Gray's Arrest

Baltimore's WBAL-TV investigative reporter Jayne Miller highlighted serious concerns with a Washington Post report that a prisoner who was in the van with Freddie Gray heard Gray trying to injure himself, pointing to WBAL's reporting from medical experts on Gray's injuries.

On April 29, The Washington Post published a report, based on a police document obtained by the paper, that said a prisoner who was in the police van with Gray heard him "banging against the walls" and thought he "was intentionally trying to injure himself." The paper noted that the prisoner "was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him," and included comment from Gray's family attorney.

But WBAL-TV's Jayne Miller says her reporting undermines this claim. She appeared on the April 30 edition of MSNBC's Morning Joe, where she explained that "according to our sources familiar with this investigation, at that stop when that prisoner is loaded, Gray is unresponsive -- not able to bang his head against the wall." Miller went on to say that the preliminary autopsy findings indicated no injury to Gray other than to his spine, although the family says his voice box was injured. The Baltimore Sun reported on April 25 that "[p]olice have said that a preliminary report on Gray's autopsy showed he had no injuries except to his spinal cord." Miller also noted that their reporting indicated "the medical evidence does not suggest at all that he was able to injure himself," because "the force of this injury" was "akin to have the force involved in a car accident." This was also reported in the Baltimore Sun.

Miller had previously tweeted on April 23 that the Baltimore police commissioner said the other prisoner reported Gray was "mostly quiet."

The report was also called into question by Dr. Marc Siegel on Fox News' Fox & Friends, who said there was "no way that you could sever your spine by bashing your head against a wall or side of a car," and added there was "no chance" that Gray could have injured himself "to the extent where he would sever his spine."

Oh I see. The Washington Post article, citing a hard copy affidavit they have in hand that spells out Dante Allen's word for word description of what he heard, is "discredited" in your words because the lesbian lover of the lead prosecutor in the case claims she has a source that says "at that stop when that prisoner is loaded, Gray is unresponsive -- not able to bang his head against the wall."

You've got a future in Baltimore city government.

I'd of course like to think I'm right about the corruption of everybody involved, and it looks like the more we get into this...well...good job General Tso.

Anyway, not from Media Matters, not from the Daily News, but from the Baltimore Sun. Miller, Bledsoe relationship and conflict of interest a violation of Ethics 101

 

[cstu]

I've been staying out of this week - any new dead people?

 

[General Tso]

So you are still running with the discredited Washington Post story? Indeed you can't make this #### up.

Just because you discredit it doesn't mean ####. Are you denying that there was an affidavit for a search warrant obtained by the Post with Dante Allen's statement that he heard Gray "trying to hurt himself"? That is the importance of the report, and the only reason we are talking about it, you do realize that.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/04/30/baltimore-reporter-disputes-details-of-leaked-p/203482

Baltimore Reporter Disputes Details Of Leaked Police Department Report On Freddie Gray's Arrest

Baltimore's WBAL-TV investigative reporter Jayne Miller highlighted serious concerns with a Washington Post report that a prisoner who was in the van with Freddie Gray heard Gray trying to injure himself, pointing to WBAL's reporting from medical experts on Gray's injuries.

On April 29, The Washington Post published a report, based on a police document obtained by the paper, that said a prisoner who was in the police van with Gray heard him "banging against the walls" and thought he "was intentionally trying to injure himself." The paper noted that the prisoner "was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him," and included comment from Gray's family attorney.

But WBAL-TV's Jayne Miller says her reporting undermines this claim. She appeared on the April 30 edition of MSNBC's Morning Joe, where she explained that "according to our sources familiar with this investigation, at that stop when that prisoner is loaded, Gray is unresponsive -- not able to bang his head against the wall." Miller went on to say that the preliminary autopsy findings indicated no injury to Gray other than to his spine, although the family says his voice box was injured. The Baltimore Sun reported on April 25 that "[p]olice have said that a preliminary report on Gray's autopsy showed he had no injuries except to his spinal cord." Miller also noted that their reporting indicated "the medical evidence does not suggest at all that he was able to injure himself," because "the force of this injury" was "akin to have the force involved in a car accident." This was also reported in the Baltimore Sun.

Miller had previously tweeted on April 23 that the Baltimore police commissioner said the other prisoner reported Gray was "mostly quiet."

The report was also called into question by Dr. Marc Siegel on Fox News' Fox & Friends, who said there was "no way that you could sever your spine by bashing your head against a wall or side of a car," and added there was "no chance" that Gray could have injured himself "to the extent where he would sever his spine."

So here's a video of a CBS News interview where Commissioner Batts himself says that Dante Allen said he heard Gray "thrashing about".

In three separate video interviews I have seen, Allen denies saying that Gray was trying to hurt himself. But in all three videos he does admit to hearing banging. In this CNN interview he says it "sounded like someone banging their head or something".

The Washington Post story has not been discredited. What we have is three separate things:

1. The Post citing an affidavit for a search warrant (in the police's words) saying that Allen described Gray as "trying to hurt himself"

2. Commissioner Batts saying that Allen told police he heard Gray "thrashing around"

3. Allen directly saying that he heard Gray "banging his head or something"

The truth is probably somewhere in between.

 

[General Tso]

I've been staying out of this week - any new dead people?

A black cop who drove a van.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

I don't know if I can pull off this post.

I have a problem with the indictment. Oh, it is not that I believe that there is any lack of evidence to support the charges. I think that just what has been made public supports the charges. A charge doesn't change a presumption of innocence or the ability to defend the action in answering the separate question of guilt. My problem isn't with any of this.

Instead my problem is that the indictment "says" that this "crime" was the result of six "bad" cops. I'd like to believe that, but I don't. I doubt that these six cops are bad people. I believe that they were dedicated to the goal "to protect and serve". That they were doing the job that they were hired to do. That they were doing the job the same way they had always done it, the same way that their peers perform the job everyday. While I think the community in West Baltimore would of coursed be appalled finding out that this happened - just like the rest of us there wouldn't have been a powder keg if this was just a few bad apples.

So I just can't come to accept that this is an isolated incident with six "bad cops" breaking every policy and procedure and training. No, I think these were likely six good officers practicing following questionable policies with bad procedures and inappropriate "secondary" training. Oh I so want to be wrong about this!

As for the police officers I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they were unlucky enough to be the ones where everything finally went wrong and the world noticed. I feel sorry for them exactly the same way I feel sorry for the Florida A&M band members that hazed the drum major to death. Which coincidentally enough.

Hopefully this is somewhat coherent.

I get the sentiment, but fundamentally a guy was shackled and in the custody of 6 officers and died as a result of a broken neck while in that custody. They became responsible for him as soon as they took control of him, and certainly they became responsible for him once his arms and legs were bound. At that point he literally had no ability to take care of himself. As far as the individual officers, I don't feel sorry for them at all. We all have to take personal responsibility for our own decisions and actions. "It's how we do it" isn't a defense, it's shirking personal responsibility. It's just blame-shifting.

right. I feel similar to bottomfeeder as i agree, i think its more an issue of 6 cops following bad policy, procedure and systemic practices. However, once these officers decide to take someone into custody they are responsible for their lives. If the person under their custody dies due to their neglect or excessive force, they are responsible. So i do feel bad for the cops, but even if they were just doing what everyone does and has done for years, they made that individual decision. I just hope that we can change the relationship between cops and people in this community to help dismantle some of these practices and prevent this widespread violence and neglect in the future.

 

[Dr Oadi]

Leland on Fox interviewing black people dancing in the streets. Warning of "potentially salty language".

just switched over. this is bananas.

That's racist.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

Kind of a rag newspaper, but here's your murderer, Caesar Goodson - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3064698/Cop-charged-murder-Freddie-Gray-told-family-begged-arresting-officers-restrain-dead-man-following-protocol-fears-wife-children-attacked.html

Cop charged with murder of Freddie Gray told family he begged arresting officers to restrain dead man and now lives in fear of revenge attacks on wife and children.

Family tell Daily Mail Online he is distraught at Gray's death, 'crying uncontrollably' and fears his wife and children will be targeted. A source close to the Goodson family say the 16-year veteran has been plagued by flashbacks and nightmares over the death of Gray who died April 19 from injuries sustained in the back of the paddy wagon driven by Goodson.

Goodson, 45, says he followed protocol throughout transporting Gray, who died week after arrested. Sources told Daily Mail Online he is distraught with himself for not personally checking the 25-year-old prisoner was strapped in adequately - but does not accept he is criminally responsible.

He told them audio recording exists of him begging arresting officers to restrain Gray but they did not belt him in. Caesar is a strictly by the books guy,' the family source said. The paddy wagon driver's job is to drive the wagon. 'His job primarily is transport. If something is wrong you call the arresting officers who are following you - which is what he did.

Officer has never fired his weapon in 16 years with force and family believe prosecution is 'political'

'Caesar would have been much better suited to being some sort of community officer because he's so good at talking to people. He's a gentle person.

So his family thinks he's a good guy and shouldn't be convicted. Is that supposed to be important? The dead guy's family thinks he was a good guy and someone should go to jail for killing him. Neither are real good folks to turn to for objectivity, especially since none of them know anything.

Yeah, I assume people can think for themselves and come to that conclusion, but thanks for pointing it out. We'd be lost without you lawyers.I posted it primarily because of the bolded information, which is the first I have heard of this report.

Come on. You posted that for more than just the bolded. Why else say "here's your murderer"? It's a sympathetic piece on the guy. That's why you posted it.OK, I'll bite. So his family said he said there's audio of him begging that the guy they killed be restrained before they killed him because it wasn't safe to transport him that way. I'm guessing that's going to be used by the prosecution to help with the 3rd element of "depraved heart" murder.

But I thought it was a drug-induced suicide anyway.

I'll cut to the chase. Do you think that not buckling someone in, or not adequately recognizing the signs that someone is in life threatening distress, is conduct that created a very high risk to the life of Freddie Gray? And that Goodson was conscious of such risk, and acted with extreme disregard of the life-endangering consequences? And you know that how exactly?

You can't even get your facts straight about what someone said in this message board.

Where did I say Goodson did anything? Where did I say I knew what happened exactly? If you would, kindly lift those statements from my posts if you don't mind.

You're the only one in this discussion who claims to have some understanding of what actually happened in that van.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

So you are still running with the discredited Washington Post story? Indeed you can't make this #### up.

Just because you discredit it doesn't mean ####. Are you denying that there was an affidavit for a search warrant obtained by the Post with Dante Allen's statement that he heard Gray "trying to hurt himself"? That is the importance of the report, and the only reason we are talking about it, you do realize that.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/04/30/baltimore-reporter-disputes-details-of-leaked-p/203482

Baltimore Reporter Disputes Details Of Leaked Police Department Report On Freddie Gray's Arrest

Baltimore's WBAL-TV investigative reporter Jayne Miller highlighted serious concerns with a Washington Post report that a prisoner who was in the van with Freddie Gray heard Gray trying to injure himself, pointing to WBAL's reporting from medical experts on Gray's injuries.

On April 29, The Washington Post published a report, based on a police document obtained by the paper, that said a prisoner who was in the police van with Gray heard him "banging against the walls" and thought he "was intentionally trying to injure himself." The paper noted that the prisoner "was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him," and included comment from Gray's family attorney.

But WBAL-TV's Jayne Miller says her reporting undermines this claim. She appeared on the April 30 edition of MSNBC's Morning Joe, where she explained that "according to our sources familiar with this investigation, at that stop when that prisoner is loaded, Gray is unresponsive -- not able to bang his head against the wall." Miller went on to say that the preliminary autopsy findings indicated no injury to Gray other than to his spine, although the family says his voice box was injured. The Baltimore Sun reported on April 25 that "[p]olice have said that a preliminary report on Gray's autopsy showed he had no injuries except to his spinal cord." Miller also noted that their reporting indicated "the medical evidence does not suggest at all that he was able to injure himself," because "the force of this injury" was "akin to have the force involved in a car accident." This was also reported in the Baltimore Sun.

Miller had previously tweeted on April 23 that the Baltimore police commissioner said the other prisoner reported Gray was "mostly quiet."

The report was also called into question by Dr. Marc Siegel on Fox News' Fox & Friends, who said there was "no way that you could sever your spine by bashing your head against a wall or side of a car," and added there was "no chance" that Gray could have injured himself "to the extent where he would sever his spine."

So here's a video of a CBS News interview where Commissioner Batts himself says that Dante Allen said he heard Gray "thrashing about".

In three separate video interviews I have seen, Allen denies saying that Gray was trying to hurt himself. But in all three videos he does admit to hearing banging. In this CNN interview he says it "sounded like someone banging their head or something".

The Washington Post story has not been discredited. What we have is three separate things:

1. The Post citing an affidavit for a search warrant (in the police's words) saying that Allen described Gray as "trying to hurt himself"

2. Commissioner Batts saying that Allen told police he heard Gray "thrashing around"

3. Allen directly saying that he heard Gray "banging his head or something"

The truth is probably somewhere in between.

The problem with all of that is you're taking an assumption and claiming it's a fact. The fact is Allen heard something that sounding like thrashing around and he heard something that sounding like a head banging or something. That's it. He couldn't know if Gray was alone on the other side of that wall or if there was someone else in there with him. Maybe Gray thrashing around alone sounds different than someone thrashing Gray around, I don't know. Maybe Gray banging his head makes a different sound than someone banging his head for him. Maybe kicking sounds different than banging his head.

And do we really think Commissioner Batts has any actual knowledge about what Allen said to anyone? Do you think he was at the interview? Or do you think he's just parroting back what one of his officers put in a report?

I'll go back to what I said before -- police and the public question everything a civilian suspect in a killing says, and rightfully so. No one on the planet has a bigger motivation to distort the truth than someone being investigated for a possible murder. But the moment the person being investigated is a police officer, that dynamic changes 180 degrees. Now the police take everything as gospel. The whole "conflict of interest" stuff is amusing coming from a guy who will take anything from Baltimore's finest as the gospel -- no conflict of interest there at all.

I don't know what happened on that ride other than what the limited video shows us. Unlike you, I don't pretend to know. I'm guessing the prosecutor's investigator actually interviewed Allen and didn't take someone else's word for what Allen heard. I'm guessing the prosecutor has listened to whatever audio is out there. I'm guessing that someone either has or will review the EDR and see what it has to say about the trip. You have confused the standard for charging someone with the standard to convict someone by throwing out every alternative theory anyone is floating as a viable alternative. Maybe one of those will prove to be accurate, I dunno. But maybe one won't. And here's the thing -- you have no idea at all.

Yet you are more than happy to attack anyone involved with charging these officers because you think there are alternative theories to explain it. Do you defend everyone accused of killing another person with such vigor, or just police officers?

 

[The_Man]

My God what a circus this is. What exactly are people protesting at this point?

And now this idiot reporter on CNN (Miguel) is getting into an argument with a cop who is politely asking him to move somewhere else. The guy is actually talking about his constitutional rights being abused? WTF? This is unbelievable.

They're protesting the curfew that is forcing law abiding citizens into de facto house arrest every night at 10 pm, an action that could reasonably be seen as an abuse of our constitutional rights.

 

[Jack White]

My God what a circus this is. What exactly are people protesting at this point?

And now this idiot reporter on CNN (Miguel) is getting into an argument with a cop who is politely asking him to move somewhere else. The guy is actually talking about his constitutional rights being abused? WTF? This is unbelievable.

They're protesting the curfew that is forcing law abiding citizens into de facto house arrest every night at 10 pm, an action that could reasonably be seen as an abuse of our constitutional rights.

If the curfew was such a good idea, why wasn't it implemented Monday?

Was it so TBTB could bring in the National Guard the next day and condition the sheeple for future martial law?

(Cue Dr. Death's drive-by in three, two, one . . . )

 

[PinkydaPimp]

My God what a circus this is. What exactly are people protesting at this point?

And now this idiot reporter on CNN (Miguel) is getting into an argument with a cop who is politely asking him to move somewhere else. The guy is actually talking about his constitutional rights being abused? WTF? This is unbelievable.

They're protesting the curfew that is forcing law abiding citizens into de facto house arrest every night at 10 pm, an action that could reasonably be seen as an abuse of our constitutional rights.

Don't have to worry about it tonight with the fight on

 

[jonessed]

Has anyone explained how the DA gets to unlawful arrest from a known heroine dealer seen dealing, subsequently running from the cops, ingested the heroine, and an autopsy report that actually found the ingested heroine in his system?

 

[The_Man]

My God what a circus this is. What exactly are people protesting at this point?

And now this idiot reporter on CNN (Miguel) is getting into an argument with a cop who is politely asking him to move somewhere else. The guy is actually talking about his constitutional rights being abused? WTF? This is unbelievable.

They're protesting the curfew that is forcing law abiding citizens into de facto house arrest every night at 10 pm, an action that could reasonably be seen as an abuse of our constitutional rights.

Don't have to worry about it tonight with the fight on

Unless you want to watch it with a bunch of friends but don't want to have a sleepover afterwards

 

[dickey moe]

Has anyone explained how the DA gets to unlawful arrest from a known heroine dealer seen dealing, subsequently running from the cops, ingested the heroine, and an autopsy report that actually found the ingested heroine in his system?

There was much made earlier about the knife that Gray had - that it was lawful and not a switchblade or equivalent. Not sure if the impetus to apprehend Gray was the supposed drug dealing or possession of the knife.

 

[jonessed]

Kind of a rag newspaper, but here's your murderer, Caesar Goodson - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3064698/Cop-charged-murder-Freddie-Gray-told-family-begged-arresting-officers-restrain-dead-man-following-protocol-fears-wife-children-attacked.html

Cop charged with murder of Freddie Gray told family he begged arresting officers to restrain dead man and now lives in fear of revenge attacks on wife and children.

Family tell Daily Mail Online he is distraught at Gray's death, 'crying uncontrollably' and fears his wife and children will be targeted. A source close to the Goodson family say the 16-year veteran has been plagued by flashbacks and nightmares over the death of Gray who died April 19 from injuries sustained in the back of the paddy wagon driven by Goodson.

Goodson, 45, says he followed protocol throughout transporting Gray, who died week after arrested. Sources told Daily Mail Online he is distraught with himself for not personally checking the 25-year-old prisoner was strapped in adequately - but does not accept he is criminally responsible.

He told them audio recording exists of him begging arresting officers to restrain Gray but they did not belt him in. Caesar is a strictly by the books guy,' the family source said. The paddy wagon driver's job is to drive the wagon. 'His job primarily is transport. If something is wrong you call the arresting officers who are following you - which is what he did.

Officer has never fired his weapon in 16 years with force and family believe prosecution is 'political'

'Caesar would have been much better suited to being some sort of community officer because he's so good at talking to people. He's a gentle person.

So his family thinks he's a good guy and shouldn't be convicted. Is that supposed to be important? The dead guy's family thinks he was a good guy and someone should go to jail for killing him. Neither are real good folks to turn to for objectivity, especially since none of them know anything.

Yeah, I assume people can think for themselves and come to that conclusion, but thanks for pointing it out. We'd be lost without you lawyers.I posted it primarily because of the bolded information, which is the first I have heard of this report.

Seriously? This guy?

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

Has anyone explained how the DA gets to unlawful arrest from a known heroine dealer seen dealing, subsequently running from the cops, ingested the heroine, and an autopsy report that actually found the ingested heroine in his system?

The explanation is that the Ada's has possession of actual facts, not Internet buzz.

I'm guessing a healthy %age of those "facts" are either inaccurate or heavily disputed.

 

[The_Man]

Has anyone explained how the DA gets to unlawful arrest from a known heroine dealer seen dealing, subsequently running from the cops, ingested the heroine, and an autopsy report that actually found the ingested heroine in his system?

1. Wasn't seen dealing.

2. Wasn't seen ingesting heroin.

3. Zero confirmation on autopsy report, just rumors from same police that claimed Gray crushed his own voice box while shackled.

4. Heroine is a female hero.

 

[dutch]

Here is the charging document for Freddie Gray. Notice it states he was arrested for possession of an illegal switch blade, which turned out to be a legal folding knife according to the prosecutor, nothing about drugs.

https://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/263671802?access_key=key-ENXnmmm3UjNtVUMwwoyK&allow_share=true&escape=false&view_mode=scroll

 

[jonessed]

Has anyone explained how the DA gets to unlawful arrest from a known heroine dealer seen dealing, subsequently running from the cops, ingested the heroine, and an autopsy report that actually found the ingested heroine in his system?

There was much made earlier about the knife that Gray had - that it was lawful and not a switchblade or equivalent. Not sure if the impetus to apprehend Gray was the supposed drug dealing or possession of the knife.

Seems like if he had heroin in his system the knife is irrelevant. I guess we will find out soon enough.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Has anyone explained how the DA gets to unlawful arrest from a known heroine dealer seen dealing, subsequently running from the cops, ingested the heroine, and an autopsy report that actually found the ingested heroine in his system?

1. Wasn't seen dealing.

2. Wasn't seen ingesting heroin.

3. Zero confirmation on autopsy report, just rumors from same police that claimed Gray crushed his own voice box while shackled.

4. Heroine is a female hero.

Fun fact (and yeah maybe I'm wrong so correct me if so), but...

- supposedly heroin actually was originally called "heroine." It was developed by Bayer as a substitute for morphine and opium, which had swept the country in widespread addiction after the Civil War and through trade with China. Supposedly "heroine" would rescue people from pain without the addictive qualities, it was actually a corporate marketing name which was supposed to have positive connotations.

 

[General Tso]

Kind of a rag newspaper, but here's your murderer, Caesar Goodson - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3064698/Cop-charged-murder-Freddie-Gray-told-family-begged-arresting-officers-restrain-dead-man-following-protocol-fears-wife-children-attacked.html

Cop charged with murder of Freddie Gray told family he begged arresting officers to restrain dead man and now lives in fear of revenge attacks on wife and children.

Family tell Daily Mail Online he is distraught at Gray's death, 'crying uncontrollably' and fears his wife and children will be targeted. A source close to the Goodson family say the 16-year veteran has been plagued by flashbacks and nightmares over the death of Gray who died April 19 from injuries sustained in the back of the paddy wagon driven by Goodson.

Goodson, 45, says he followed protocol throughout transporting Gray, who died week after arrested. Sources told Daily Mail Online he is distraught with himself for not personally checking the 25-year-old prisoner was strapped in adequately - but does not accept he is criminally responsible.

He told them audio recording exists of him begging arresting officers to restrain Gray but they did not belt him in. Caesar is a strictly by the books guy,' the family source said. The paddy wagon driver's job is to drive the wagon. 'His job primarily is transport. If something is wrong you call the arresting officers who are following you - which is what he did.

Officer has never fired his weapon in 16 years with force and family believe prosecution is 'political'

'Caesar would have been much better suited to being some sort of community officer because he's so good at talking to people. He's a gentle person.

So his family thinks he's a good guy and shouldn't be convicted. Is that supposed to be important? The dead guy's family thinks he was a good guy and someone should go to jail for killing him. Neither are real good folks to turn to for objectivity, especially since none of them know anything.

Yeah, I assume people can think for themselves and come to that conclusion, but thanks for pointing it out. We'd be lost without you lawyers.I posted it primarily because of the bolded information, which is the first I have heard of this report.

Come on. You posted that for more than just the bolded. Why else say "here's your murderer"? It's a sympathetic piece on the guy. That's why you posted it.OK, I'll bite. So his family said he said there's audio of him begging that the guy they killed be restrained before they killed him because it wasn't safe to transport him that way. I'm guessing that's going to be used by the prosecution to help with the 3rd element of "depraved heart" murder.

But I thought it was a drug-induced suicide anyway.

I'll cut to the chase. Do you think that not buckling someone in, or not adequately recognizing the signs that someone is in life threatening distress, is conduct that created a very high risk to the life of Freddie Gray? And that Goodson was conscious of such risk, and acted with extreme disregard of the life-endangering consequences? And you know that how exactly?

You can't even get your facts straight about what someone said in this message board.Where did I say Goodson did anything? Where did I say I knew what happened exactly? If you would, kindly lift those statements from my posts if you don't mind.

You're the only one in this discussion who claims to have some understanding of what actually happened in that van.

Where in my question do you see me attributing anything to you? I'm asking for your opinion on the subject.

 

[timschochet]

Has anyone explained how the DA gets to unlawful arrest from a known heroine dealer seen dealing, subsequently running from the cops, ingested the heroine, and an autopsy report that actually found the ingested heroine in his system?

There was much made earlier about the knife that Gray had - that it was lawful and not a switchblade or equivalent. Not sure if the impetus to apprehend Gray was the supposed drug dealing or possession of the knife.

Seems like if he had heroin in his system the knife is irrelevant. I guess we will find out soon enough.

You seem to be accepting what the unknown cop on the Hannity Show said at face value. At this point it's the only source for the "ingesting heroin", and even then it's only an assumption based on a toxicology report which hasn't been released. My problem is this: if, as this cop asserts, Gray was arrested after being seen selling drugs and then running away (presumably during which time he swallowed said drugs) why is none of that on the police report?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I just thought I would point out this thread has gotten better. A lot of the bs has gone away. But the heroin issue is hanging around like a bad shadow. Some notes from reading through some of the great posts here recently:

• Venue - Tso points this out further up, the City Attorney (which I guess is like a DA) has really set herself up for being recused or having the trial moved. The "grandstanding" will be raised and if the cops get the right judge then they just may get a new court, a new jury, maybe in a suburban district, and a new prosecutor.
• Toxicology, autopsy and the injury - the thrashing is an issue. Ingestion of heroin sounds like a real possibility. It would explain a lot. Gray also had a host of physical, behavioral and mental issues from his exposure to lead paint from his youth, perhaps he had a seizure.
• Leaks - if someone on the prosecutor's office leaked the name of a witness that is a huge problem. We had a scandal down here with leaks from prosecutors and it resulted in actual disbarments and dismissals of charges. Not kidding. If the prosecutors in Baltimore have done this they are playing with fire.
• Charging 6 cops at once with the maximum penalty. - Maybe the hope here is that one of them will turn on the others. That makes sense if they are actually guilty..... but these charges have been slapped down fast. Likely the prosecutor has jumped the gun and doesn't have all the facts yet. We know how this works, the defenses' case will be under wraps for a while and then it will be slowly dripped out with facts. This could end up being really ridiculous. - BFS made this point, it's hard to see all these cops, or even any of them looking at the bios, as being "bad".
• The judge - do we know how Baltimore judges get to the bench, are they elected or appointed? Either way there are some judges who can be very friendly and sympathetic to cops, especially when they cut their teeth in DA's offices and the like. Who the cops get as judge will be very important.
• No grand jury - can someone explain how in some instances a grand jury is required and in others like here there is none?
• The protestors - I asked this early and now I am really wondering, what the heck is being demanded? The cops were suspended out the gate. The PD stood back while protestors marched. Largely liberal Democrats from the city to federal level (except for the governor) were handling the case and have been running city government for years. The cops, all of them, have been charged with murder. What more could be demanded?
• Mobley - I just thought the most interesting thing from her presser was that she comes from a really long line of cops, like back to her great grandfather. I trust her, and I think she's impressive, but she's either riding a tiger or it's riding her.
• The Union - the union is going to provide a solid defense for all the cops. Good attorneys will be provided for. The prosecutors office will be working overtime to prove 6 cases, they will have a lot of work in front of them and usually such offices are overworked and underfunded as it is.
• Feeding the beast - maybe the prosecutor has done the right thing by hearing the people, but if this case gets moved and the cops get off or acquitted, now that suspicions have been confirmed, the result could be very ugly with permanent damage and consequences in Baltimore at least. Quite the game of chicken being played here.

 

[General Tso]

So you are still running with the discredited Washington Post story? Indeed you can't make this #### up.

Just because you discredit it doesn't mean ####. Are you denying that there was an affidavit for a search warrant obtained by the Post with Dante Allen's statement that he heard Gray "trying to hurt himself"? That is the importance of the report, and the only reason we are talking about it, you do realize that.

http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/04/30/baltimore-reporter-disputes-details-of-leaked-p/203482

Baltimore Reporter Disputes Details Of Leaked Police Department Report On Freddie Gray's Arrest

Baltimore's WBAL-TV investigative reporter Jayne Miller highlighted serious concerns with a Washington Post report that a prisoner who was in the van with Freddie Gray heard Gray trying to injure himself, pointing to WBAL's reporting from medical experts on Gray's injuries.

On April 29, The Washington Post published a report, based on a police document obtained by the paper, that said a prisoner who was in the police van with Gray heard him "banging against the walls" and thought he "was intentionally trying to injure himself." The paper noted that the prisoner "was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him," and included comment from Gray's family attorney.

But WBAL-TV's Jayne Miller says her reporting undermines this claim. She appeared on the April 30 edition of MSNBC's Morning Joe, where she explained that "according to our sources familiar with this investigation, at that stop when that prisoner is loaded, Gray is unresponsive -- not able to bang his head against the wall." Miller went on to say that the preliminary autopsy findings indicated no injury to Gray other than to his spine, although the family says his voice box was injured. The Baltimore Sun reported on April 25 that "[p]olice have said that a preliminary report on Gray's autopsy showed he had no injuries except to his spinal cord." Miller also noted that their reporting indicated "the medical evidence does not suggest at all that he was able to injure himself," because "the force of this injury" was "akin to have the force involved in a car accident." This was also reported in the Baltimore Sun.

Miller had previously tweeted on April 23 that the Baltimore police commissioner said the other prisoner reported Gray was "mostly quiet."

The report was also called into question by Dr. Marc Siegel on Fox News' Fox & Friends, who said there was "no way that you could sever your spine by bashing your head against a wall or side of a car," and added there was "no chance" that Gray could have injured himself "to the extent where he would sever his spine."

So here's a video of a CBS News interview where Commissioner Batts himself says that Dante Allen said he heard Gray "thrashing about".

In three separate video interviews I have seen, Allen denies saying that Gray was trying to hurt himself. But in all three videos he does admit to hearing banging. In this CNN interview he says it "sounded like someone banging their head or something".

The Washington Post story has not been discredited. What we have is three separate things:

1. The Post citing an affidavit for a search warrant (in the police's words) saying that Allen described Gray as "trying to hurt himself"

2. Commissioner Batts saying that Allen told police he heard Gray "thrashing around"

3. Allen directly saying that he heard Gray "banging his head or something"

The truth is probably somewhere in between.

The problem with all of that is you're taking an assumption and claiming it's a fact. The fact is Allen heard something that sounding like thrashing around and he heard something that sounding like a head banging or something. That's it. He couldn't know if Gray was alone on the other side of that wall or if there was someone else in there with him. Maybe Gray thrashing around alone sounds different than someone thrashing Gray around, I don't know. Maybe Gray banging his head makes a different sound than someone banging his head for him. Maybe kicking sounds different than banging his head.

And do we really think Commissioner Batts has any actual knowledge about what Allen said to anyone? Do you think he was at the interview? Or do you think he's just parroting back what one of his officers put in a report?

I'll go back to what I said before -- police and the public question everything a civilian suspect in a killing says, and rightfully so. No one on the planet has a bigger motivation to distort the truth than someone being investigated for a possible murder. But the moment the person being investigated is a police officer, that dynamic changes 180 degrees. Now the police take everything as gospel. The whole "conflict of interest" stuff is amusing coming from a guy who will take anything from Baltimore's finest as the gospel -- no conflict of interest there at all.

I don't know what happened on that ride other than what the limited video shows us. Unlike you, I don't pretend to know. I'm guessing the prosecutor's investigator actually interviewed Allen and didn't take someone else's word for what Allen heard. I'm guessing the prosecutor has listened to whatever audio is out there. I'm guessing that someone either has or will review the EDR and see what it has to say about the trip. You have confused the standard for charging someone with the standard to convict someone by throwing out every alternative theory anyone is floating as a viable alternative. Maybe one of those will prove to be accurate, I dunno. But maybe one won't. And here's the thing -- you have no idea at all.

Yet you are more than happy to attack anyone involved with charging these officers because you think there are alternative theories to explain it. Do you defend everyone accused of killing another person with such vigor, or just police officers?

Where on earth are you reading that I know what happened in that van? Please, point out specifically where I have said that I know what Allen said. I am going out of my way here to aggregate all the various statements and sources of what Allen said. Holy cow dude. You need to read things more carefully. You did the same thing in the Walter Scott thread. You came in about 20 pages in without much knowledge of the case and started ####ting all over it. Where I work we call that seagulling - flying into a place, ####ting all over it, then flying out.

 

[Tennessee_ATO]

Has anyone explained how the DA gets to unlawful arrest from a known heroine dealer seen dealing, subsequently running from the cops, ingested the heroine, and an autopsy report that actually found the ingested heroine in his system?

There was much made earlier about the knife that Gray had - that it was lawful and not a switchblade or equivalent. Not sure if the impetus to apprehend Gray was the supposed drug dealing or possession of the knife.

Seems like if he had heroin in his system the knife is irrelevant. I guess we will find out soon enough.

It's very important from a probable cause standpoint. Police aren't allowed to arrest someone then figure out a reason for the arrest after the fact.

 

[dickey moe]

Has anyone explained how the DA gets to unlawful arrest from a known heroine dealer seen dealing, subsequently running from the cops, ingested the heroine, and an autopsy report that actually found the ingested heroine in his system?

There was much made earlier about the knife that Gray had - that it was lawful and not a switchblade or equivalent. Not sure if the impetus to apprehend Gray was the supposed drug dealing or possession of the knife.

Seems like if he had heroin in his system the knife is irrelevant. I guess we will find out soon enough.

It's very important from a probable cause standpoint. Police aren't allowed to arrest someone then figure out a reason for the arrest after the fact.

Right.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Has anyone explained how the DA gets to unlawful arrest from a known heroine dealer seen dealing, subsequently running from the cops, ingested the heroine, and an autopsy report that actually found the ingested heroine in his system?

There was much made earlier about the knife that Gray had - that it was lawful and not a switchblade or equivalent. Not sure if the impetus to apprehend Gray was the supposed drug dealing or possession of the knife.

Seems like if he had heroin in his system the knife is irrelevant. I guess we will find out soon enough.

It's very important from a probable cause standpoint. Police aren't allowed to arrest someone then figure out a reason for the arrest after the fact.

Not much interaction with law enforcement, I take it.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I've spent the last two days at fire and looting scenes.

Highest incident of looted stores:

Drug>pawn>wig