Barber to Atlanta for their 1st Round Pick? (1 Viewer)

[EBF]

Of the many misses I've had, I'm simply flabberghasted that Carnell hasn't turned out better. Injuries and O-line have been a large part of it, but his talent was on a different level IMO then not only Brown and Bneson but also KJones and Jackson and Perry from the year prior.

Sorta with you here. I saw him as another Curtis Martin. Unlike Martin, he hasn't been able to overcome his injury issues.People who follow my posts know I'm a big believer in using combine numbers as part of the evaluation process for a RB. That's one area where Cadillac came up a little short. He had decent numbers, but they were mediocre for a first round RB and nowhere near the level of someone like Bush or Tomlinson. He had good instincts, but probably lacked the top shelf physical skills needed to be an elite pro.

2005 was an odd year because all three of the first round RBs had very weak combine numbers given their draft profile. None of those guys have lived up to their billing, although in the cases of Brown and Caddy you could blame that on injuries as much as anything.

I believe you are wrong here, i am 99% sure Caddy and Brown had good combine numbers, particularly Brown, who i think ran faster than most thought he would. If i recall correctly, Caddy did at least what many expected, but impressed with his hands/catching moreso than most thought.

No, I'm not wrong. I don't have the actual numbers on hand and I'm at work and unable to dig them up right now, but...Their numbers were pretty average across the board. Brown had a fast 40 time that was reported as a 4.3 (although I think it was in the 4.4 range when the official times came in). Other than that he had very mediocre workout numbers. I think his vert was under 35" and his broad jump under 10'.

I think Cadillac had a 35.5" vert and broad jump somewhere around 10' flat, maybe a little under. His numbers were on the low end of what you typically see from a first round RBs.

First round RB prospects typically run a 4.3-4.5 40, have a vert between 35" and 40", a broad jump over 10', and a three cone time under 7.2 seconds. Reggie Bush ran 4.3, jumped over 40" in the vert, and 10'8" or 10'9" in the broad jump. Peterson ran a 4.3-4.4, jumped about 37-38" in the vert, and had a broad jump of about 10'4" if I remember correctly.

 

[fatness]

This is all a myth anyway as there's no way those two teams are talking trade right now, especially with ATL being the mess it is.

What he said.Who exactly would Dallas (or anyone) talk to in Atlanta about trades right now? The coach who may well be fired? The GM who may well be fired? The owner who's trying to hire a chief of football operations who will then hire a GM and a coach?

 

[Colin Dowling]

Benson didn't run at the combine. Brown, IIRC ran a 4.32. Carnell ran a 4.43 and had 6.96 in the 3 cone (same as Sproles).

 

[EBF]

Benson didn't run at the combine. Brown, IIRC ran a 4.32. Carnell ran a 4.43 and had 6.96 in the 3 cone (same as Sproles).

When I say combine I mean workouts in general. Benson had pitiful workout numbers.

 

[Morton Muffley]

First, no deal would be mad until draft day because Dallas would want to ensure that McFadden is avail at the Falcon's spot. Given what I've heard of JJ's love for McFadden, I've been thinking for some time that Dallas might be able to make a deal with NE for their top 5 pick (again assumingMcFadden is there). I'm thinking Barber + Dallas' first tow pick for NE's first would do it for NE.

Maroney/Barber would be a great combo for NE and NE would get two late first round picks as well (they love having multiple 1st round picks)

Dallas would get their coveted RB

Classic Win-Win

 

[Colin Dowling]

Benson didn't run at the combine. Brown, IIRC ran a 4.32. Carnell ran a 4.43 and had 6.96 in the 3 cone (same as Sproles).

When I say combine I mean workouts in general. Benson had pitiful workout numbers.

Yes, he did.ETA - he ran a 4.6 and 4.62

 

[Burning Sensation]

Of the many misses I've had, I'm simply flabberghasted that Carnell hasn't turned out better. Injuries and O-line have been a large part of it, but his talent was on a different level IMO then not only Brown and Bneson but also KJones and Jackson and Perry from the year prior.

Sorta with you here. I saw him as another Curtis Martin. Unlike Martin, he hasn't been able to overcome his injury issues.People who follow my posts know I'm a big believer in using combine numbers as part of the evaluation process for a RB. That's one area where Cadillac came up a little short. He had decent numbers, but they were mediocre for a first round RB and nowhere near the level of someone like Bush or Tomlinson. He had good instincts, but probably lacked the top shelf physical skills needed to be an elite pro.

2005 was an odd year because all three of the first round RBs had very weak combine numbers given their draft profile. None of those guys have lived up to their billing, although in the cases of Brown and Caddy you could blame that on injuries as much as anything.

I believe you are wrong here, i am 99% sure Caddy and Brown had good combine numbers, particularly Brown, who i think ran faster than most thought he would. If i recall correctly, Caddy did at least what many expected, but impressed with his hands/catching moreso than most thought.

No, I'm not wrong. I don't have the actual numbers on hand and I'm at work and unable to dig them up right now, but...Their numbers were pretty average across the board. Brown had a fast 40 time that was reported as a 4.3 (although I think it was in the 4.4 range when the official times came in). Other than that he had very mediocre workout numbers. I think his vert was under 35" and his broad jump under 10'.

I think Cadillac had a 35.5" vert and broad jump somewhere around 10' flat, maybe a little under. His numbers were on the low end of what you typically see from a first round RBs.

First round RB prospects typically run a 4.3-4.5 40, have a vert between 35" and 40", a broad jump over 10', and a three cone time under 7.2 seconds. Reggie Bush ran 4.3, jumped over 40" in the vert, and 10'8" or 10'9" in the broad jump. Peterson ran a 4.3-4.4, jumped about 37-38" in the vert, and had a broad jump of about 10'4" if I remember correctly.

In your original post, you said Brown and Caddy had "very weak combine numbers". Brown ran faster than many thought he would. His 40 time was similar to AD, and Brown weighs 15 more pounds than AD. I am not sure a couple inches in the vert. and long jump do not make a big difference when it comes to RB's. Caddy did what most expected, and cemented himself as a top 10 pick.

 

[Urinal Mint]

This would be the dumbest thing Dallas could do. They need those late 1st round picks. They can find a complementary RB for Barber in the 4th round or as a rookie FA. Or they could just use Tyson Thompson.

 

[EBF]

In your original post, you said Brown and Caddy had "very weak combine numbers". Brown ran faster than many thought he would. His 40 time was similar to AD, and Brown weighs 15 more pounds than AD. I am not sure a couple inches in the vert. and long jump do not make a big difference when it comes to RB's.

Trust me, it all matters. That's why they test it in the first place.

Dismissing a few inches in the jumps as irrelevant is like dismissing a few tenths of a second in the 40 as irrelevant.

It's not a coincidence that virtually every starting RB in the NFL did well in these drills.

Caddy did what most expected, and cemented himself as a top 10 pick.

He had a very mediocre workout for a first round RB. That's not really up for debate.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

The more I see of the combine, the more I think it should be used as a tool for confirming what you already know. If performance matches expectation, then you've got your guy - guys like Adrian Peterson and Calvin Johnson (it's not his fault the Lions are a terrible organization).

Take guys like Benson and Chris Henry, OTOH. Benson had good numbers at Texas, but showed flaws at (or at least "around") the combine. Henry didn't show much in his career but then blew up at the combine. Either combination seems to raise red flags.

 

[Burning Sensation]

In your original post, you said Brown and Caddy had "very weak combine numbers". Brown ran faster than many thought he would. His 40 time was similar to AD, and Brown weighs 15 more pounds than AD. I am not sure a couple inches in the vert. and long jump do not make a big difference when it comes to RB's.

Trust me, it all matters. That's why they test it in the first place.

Dismissing a few inches in the jumps as irrelevant is like dismissing a few tenths of a second in the 40 as irrelevant.

It's not a coincidence that virtually every starting RB in the NFL did well in these drills.

Caddy did what most expected, and cemented himself as a top 10 pick.

He had a very mediocre workout for a first round RB. That's not really up for debate.

I am not saying Browns vert and long jump are totally irrelevant, but it was obviously not a big deal, considering he went #2 overall. I also am not arguing that Caddy had a gret workout, just that his, nor Browns were "very weak", as you stated.

 

[The Man Who Met Andy Griffith]

Isn't McFadden up to 215 pounds now. I'll be interested to see what he weighs at the combine. His legs are thin, particularly his calves, but there's not always a direct correlation between leg size and strength. I've seen a lot of guys who look to be thin press a tremendous amount of weight. He's also only 20 years old so he's still filling out his frame.

It's not just strength, it's also momentum. Given the same speed, 5% more weight = 5% more momentum, which makes you a lot harder to tackle.

 

[The Man Who Met Andy Griffith]

First, no deal would be mad until draft day because Dallas would want to ensure that McFadden is avail at the Falcon's spot. Given what I've heard of JJ's love for McFadden, I've been thinking for some time that Dallas might be able to make a deal with NE for their top 5 pick (again assumingMcFadden is there). I'm thinking Barber + Dallas' first tow pick for NE's first would do it for NE.Maroney/Barber would be a great combo for NE and NE would get two late first round picks as well (they love having multiple 1st round picks)Dallas would get their coveted RBClassic Win-Win

Barber is going to want to be paid and played like a #1 back, not a committee back. NE has no interest in that, IMO. If they trade away their top 5 pick, it won't be for Barber.

 

[EBF]

In your original post, you said Brown and Caddy had "very weak combine numbers". Brown ran faster than many thought he would. His 40 time was similar to AD, and Brown weighs 15 more pounds than AD. I am not sure a couple inches in the vert. and long jump do not make a big difference when it comes to RB's.

Trust me, it all matters. That's why they test it in the first place.

Dismissing a few inches in the jumps as irrelevant is like dismissing a few tenths of a second in the 40 as irrelevant.

It's not a coincidence that virtually every starting RB in the NFL did well in these drills.

Caddy did what most expected, and cemented himself as a top 10 pick.

He had a very mediocre workout for a first round RB. That's not really up for debate.

I am not saying Browns vert and long jump are totally irrelevant, but it was obviously not a big deal, considering he went #2 overall. I also am not arguing that Caddy had a gret workout, just that his, nor Browns were "very weak", as you stated.

Their workouts were weak compared with the average first round RB. "Very poor" might have been an exaggeration, but these guys were not workout warriors by any means.

 

[kellumsboys]

First, no deal would be mad until draft day because Dallas would want to ensure that McFadden is avail at the Falcon's spot. Given what I've heard of JJ's love for McFadden, I've been thinking for some time that Dallas might be able to make a deal with NE for their top 5 pick (again assumingMcFadden is there). I'm thinking Barber + Dallas' first tow pick for NE's first would do it for NE.Maroney/Barber would be a great combo for NE and NE would get two late first round picks as well (they love having multiple 1st round picks)Dallas would get their coveted RBClassic Win-Win

2 first rounders and Barber for the #5 pick (McFadden) doesn't sound like a WIN for the Cowboys to me.maybe they could just give a 2nd and 4th for Stephen Jackson.

 

[EBF]

Some combine numbers from recent first round RBs:

Marshawn Lynch - 4.52 40, 35.5" vert, 10'5" broad, 7.05 cone

Adrian Peterson - 4.41 40, 38.5" vert, 10'7" broad, 7.09 cone

Joseph Addai - 4.41 40, 38.5" vert, 10'5" broad, 7.09 cone

DeAngelo Williams - 4.45 40, 34.5" vert, 10'9" broad 35.5" vert, 6.57 cone

Reggie Bush - 4.37 40, 40.5" vert, 10'8" broad, N/A cone

Laurence Maroney - 4.48 40, 36" vert, 10'3" broad, N/A cone

Steven Jackson - 4.55 40, 37.5" vert, 9'10" broad, 7.03 cone

Kevin Jones - 4.55 40, 38" vert, 10'0" broad, N/A cone

Chris Perry - 4.56 40, 34.5" vert, 10'4" broad, 7.02 cone

Larry Johnson - 4.45 40, 41" vert, 10'4" broad, 7.06 cone

These are all of the first round RBs drafted in 2003, 2004, 2006, and 2007 with the exception of Willis McGahee for obvious reasons.

Average marks: 4.48 40, 37.5" vert, 10'4" vert, 6.98 cone

Compare those numbers to:

Ronnie Brown - 4.43 40, 34" vert, 9'9" broad, 7.12 cone

Carnell Williams - 4.43 40, 35.5" vert, 9'10" broad, 6.95 cone

Cedric Benson - 4.62 40, 33" vert, N/A broad (believe it was about 9'7"), 7.50 cone

Now hopefully you see where I'm coming from. Aside from running a pretty good 40 time, Ronnie Brown put forward a pretty weak performance in the testing process. Benson was downright pathetic. Cadillac was the best of the bunch, and his numbers were pretty mediocre overall (exactly what I said in the first place).

Combine numbers are by no means a perfect predictor of a RB's NFL success, but I do think they offer some very strong clues about the athletic gifts of a particular prospect. Very few backs who perform poorly in testing go on to productive pro careers as long-term starters in the NFL. Furthermore, the combine can sometimes offer an early clue that a player is better than what his draft hype might indicate. Exhibit A:

Marion Barber - 4.49 40, 40" vert, 10'7" broad, N/A cone

Does this mean we should all race out to trade for Chris Henry? Well, I wouldn't go that far, but...

I suspect when the numbers come in again this year McFadden, Stewart, Mendenhall, and Felix will continue the tradition of strong combine performances by first round RBs. I suspect that they will outclass all of their peers when the testing begins in February-April. and check back later if you'd like.

Numbers obtained from scout.com and NFL Draft Scout. Larry Johnson numbers obtained from http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/a...php?t-1612.html.

 

[shining path]

This was a surprisingly enjoyable and informative thread to read.

 

[Mr. Peterson]

Reggie Bush - 4.37 40, 40.5" vert, 10'8" broad, N/A cone

I believe this was on his pro-day while running on a track with spikes on. No denying that Bush is fast, but anyone's #'s would be better if they ran thier 40 the same way he did.

 

[EBF]

Reggie Bush - 4.37 40, 40.5" vert, 10'8" broad, N/A cone

I believe this was on his pro-day while running on a track with spikes on. No denying that Bush is fast, but anyone's #'s would be better if they ran thier 40 the same way he did.

You won't get any argument from me there. But he didn't run at the combine, so the pro day is really all that we have to go by. I used Bush's high time instead of his low time (4.33) if it makes you feel any better.

 

[cstu]

Too bad McFadden had to come out after Peterson since he's not a fair comparison to anyone. How about comparing him to the top backs in the draft the past few years - Bush, Brown, Jackson, McGahee? If Peterson finishes well you could argue he had the best season by a rookie RB in history.

Eric Dickerson would beg to differ, 1808 rushing yards, 20 total td's and with his 404 receiving yards giving him a 2k+ yards from scrimmage.

I don't actually think AP had a better season than Dickerson, but his 5.86 YPC blows away Dickerson's 4.64 YPC. Too bad AP had to get injured or we'd have a tough debate.

 

[Sopranos]

The more I see of the combine, the more I think it should be used as a tool for confirming what you already know. If performance matches expectation, then you've got your guy - guys like Adrian Peterson and Calvin Johnson (it's not his fault the Lions are a terrible organization).Take guys like Benson and Chris Henry, OTOH. Benson had good numbers at Texas, but showed flaws at (or at least "around") the combine. Henry didn't show much in his career but then blew up at the combine. Either combination seems to raise red flags.

I agree. Your college career should be more important than a a few days at a combine but its not. Its all a matter how you play the game not just Raw skills. Now the skills do show your highest upside but most players dont ever get there. In most i mean 90+%

 

[Big Score]

LOL - This would be insane. Why would Atlanta give up a chance to get a franchise RB in McFadden? That franchise needs to get a young marque player (Georgia is SEC country and everyone knows who McFadden is). He is the perfect fit to help get Atlanta over the whole Vick era.

Because a franchise RB doesn't do much good running behind that awful line and no QB.

San Diego's drafting of LT2 contradicts this.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

LOL - This would be insane. Why would Atlanta give up a chance to get a franchise RB in McFadden? That franchise needs to get a young marque player (Georgia is SEC country and everyone knows who McFadden is). He is the perfect fit to help get Atlanta over the whole Vick era.

Because a franchise RB doesn't do much good running behind that awful line and no QB.

San Diego's drafting of LT2 contradicts this.

The exception to the rule. But again, DMF is no LT2.But a good point nonetheless.