Barry Bonds (1 Viewer)

[Steel Mike Tomczak]

He's being hailed as the best player of all time (or at least best hitter), but does he really deserve it. Just watched him hit 744 today. What are your thoughts of him?

Personally, If Pete Rose gets such a bad name for betting, not using steroids or any drugs, Bonds deserves at least as much critism for being a cheater. Lets be honest if he gets away from the steroid charges, he'll be baseball's equivalent of OJ Simpson.

 

[prosopis]

I think there were several better all around players then Bonds. He is probably the best hitter ever but not the best player.

 

[Steel Mike Tomczak]

I think there were several better all around players then Bonds. He is probably the best hitter ever but not the best player.

Id say Ted Williams was.

 

[Reality Football]

Willie Mays abajo?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I think there were several better all around players then Bonds. He is probably the best hitter ever but not the best player.

Id say Ted Williams was.

Statistically compared to league averages Bonds has had three of the ten best hitting seasons (2001, 2002, 2004) ever Ted Williams has one (1941). Ted Williams' career was cut short by war but for a career and for individual seasons Bonds is a better hitter. Add in the walks and it is mind boggling. And if you want to talk about his all around play check his fielding ranges, his gold gloves, and his steals. I've never herd him compared to Pete Rose. I wouldn't even consider Rose a top 30 all-time position player so I'd never compare him to Bonds.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Willie Mays abajo?

Mays is a top ten all-time position player. :stud:

 

[prosopis]

Joe DiMaggio

 

[Steel Mike Tomczak]

noone will touch Rose's all time hits total.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

noone will touch Rose's all time hits total.

With player's playing longer and taking better care of themselves I think it's a decent possibility that this record will fall. It's not like Cy Youngs win total or Sam Crawford's triple record. It might not happen for thirty years but I think it might happen in my lifetime.

 

[Reality Football]

Joe DiMaggio

I'm a big Yanks homer, but DiMaggio's career was relatively brief.Babe Ruth, as far as numbers relative to his peers, was significantly better than Bonds.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Joe DiMaggio

Babe Ruth, as far as numbers relative to his peers, was significantly better than Bonds.

Raw numbers yes, plus numbers no. Bonds is nearly Ruth's equal and a few times better. Career wise I think Ruth has the better numbers but it's not by a whole lot. Regardless these are the two best hitters ever. Statistically or visually.

 

[Reality Football]

Joe DiMaggio

Babe Ruth, as far as numbers relative to his peers, was significantly better than Bonds.

Raw numbers yes, plus numbers no. Bonds is nearly Ruth's equal and a few times better. Career wise I think Ruth has the better numbers but it's not by a whole lot. Regardless these are the two best hitters ever. Statistically or visually.

Career OPS+Rank Player (age) Adjusted OPS+ Bats1. Babe Ruth+* 207 L2. Ted Williams+* 190 L3. Barry Bonds* (42) 183 L4. Lou Gehrig+* 179 L5. Rogers Hornsby+ 175 R6. Mickey Mantle+# 172 B

 

[Reality Football]

Career Runs Created

Rank Player (age) Runs Created Bats

1. Babe Ruth+* 2757 L

2. Barry Bonds* (42) 2618 L

3. Hank Aaron+ 2590 R

4. Stan Musial+* 2568 L

5. Ty Cobb+* 2526 L

6. Ted Williams+* 2359 L

 

[Reality Football]

Even with OBP, Bonds's bread and butter, he comes up short. Not even the ESPN hype machine could convince me to pass up Ruth, and perhaps Williams, for Bonds, as far as career numbers go.

Rank Player (age) On-base % Bats

1. Ted Williams+* .4817 L

2. Babe Ruth+* .4740 L

3. John McGraw+* .4657 L

4. Billy Hamilton+* .4552 L

5. Lou Gehrig+* .4474 L

6. Barry Bonds* (42) .4434 L

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Joe DiMaggio

Babe Ruth, as far as numbers relative to his peers, was significantly better than Bonds.

Raw numbers yes, plus numbers no. Bonds is nearly Ruth's equal and a few times better. Career wise I think Ruth has the better numbers but it's not by a whole lot. Regardless these are the two best hitters ever. Statistically or visually.

Career OPS+Rank Player (age) Adjusted OPS+ Bats1. Babe Ruth+* 207 L2. Ted Williams+* 190 L3. Barry Bonds* (42) 183 L4. Lou Gehrig+* 179 L5. Rogers Hornsby+ 175 R6. Mickey Mantle+# 172 B

Best OPS plus seasons:2002 Bonds 2752001 Bonds 2622004 Bonds 2601920 Ruth 2561921 Ruth 2391923 Ruth 2392003 Bonds 2311926 Ruth 227Ruth had eleven seasons with an OPS + above 200 and Bonds has six. Williams had six and one partial.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Even with OBP, Bonds's bread and butter, he comes up short. Not even the ESPN hype machine could convince me to pass up Ruth, and perhaps Williams, for Bonds, as far as career numbers go. Rank Player (age) On-base % Bats1. Ted Williams+* .4817 L2. Babe Ruth+* .4740 L3. John McGraw+* .4657 L4. Billy Hamilton+* .4552 L5. Lou Gehrig+* .4474 L6. Barry Bonds* (42) .4434 L

Calm down no one is saying Bonds is better than Ruth and I already mentioned Williams' career was interupted by two wars.

 

[Reality Football]

But can Bonds pitch lefthanded?????

 

[Doctor Detroit]

But can Bonds pitch lefthanded?????

Here is what I said about Ruth a few weeks ago. He's no Pete Rose, but who is really?

 

[HellToupee]

Bonds is dead to me

 

[Steel Mike Tomczak]

Bonds is dead to me

Detroit, youre missing the point. No one argues that Bonds has the stats to be at the top of most lists (behind Ruth of course, in some cases Ted Williams) its the way he went about it, taking steroids, that I am calling into question. The dishonesty of the man, the shadow he casts on his legacy. Thats why I compared him to Rose, not because they are similar players.What are everyones opinions of that?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

One of the several Barry Bonds threads

And I'm not missing the point at all and this is something that there are 40 threads on already. We get it, you hate Bonds. If you want to read what I think read stuff in that link. This conversation is boring and comparing Barry Bonds to Pete Rose at any level just makes zero sense.

Also thanks for changing the thread title. Nice Shark Pool shtick.

 

[Knightro]

But can Bonds pitch lefthanded?????

He can't pitch lefty if he can't even get the ball into home to try to throw out Sid Bream without hopping it 10 times

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Bonds is dead to me

Detroit, youre missing the point. No one argues that Bonds has the stats to be at the top of most lists (behind Ruth of course, in some cases Ted Williams) its the way he went about it, taking steroids, that I am calling into question. The dishonesty of the man, the shadow he casts on his legacy. Thats why I compared him to Rose, not because they are similar players.

What are everyones opinions of that?

He went about it just like all his peers, just the way management wanted him to go about it - until public opinion changed. To call Bonds and select few others out as a cheater is dishonest!

 

[cobalt_27]

When Bonds hits his 756th, real fans, who know how to read the record book, will yawn, confident that Aaron's record will remain the real one until Alex Rodriguez, who has 175 more home runs than Bonds did when he was Rodriguez's age, breaks it. - George Will

Amen.

 

[Steel Mike Tomczak]

One of the several Barry Bonds threads

And I'm not missing the point at all and this is something that there are 40 threads on already. We get it, you hate Bonds. If you want to read what I think read stuff in that link. This conversation is boring and comparing Barry Bonds to Pete Rose at any level just makes zero sense.

Also thanks for changing the thread title. Nice Shark Pool shtick.

Whatever man your opinions carry little value anyway.

 

[Steel Mike Tomczak]

When Bonds hits his 756th, real fans, who know how to read the record book, will yawn, confident that Aaron's record will remain the real one until Alex Rodriguez, who has 175 more home runs than Bonds did when he was Rodriguez's age, breaks it. - George Will

Amen.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

One of the several Barry Bonds threads

And I'm not missing the point at all and this is something that there are 40 threads on already. We get it, you hate Bonds. If you want to read what I think read stuff in that link. This conversation is boring and comparing Barry Bonds to Pete Rose at any level just makes zero sense.

Also thanks for changing the thread title. Nice Shark Pool shtick.

Whatever man your opinions carry little value anyway.

No, I wouldn't want any opinions backed with statistical history and a good knowledge base. Thanks for pissing in the baseball forum.

 

[Keith Lewis]

baseball's equivalent of OJ Simpson.

Go check into a mental health facility, people who think like you do are a danger to society.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

baseball's equivalent of OJ Simpson.

Go check into a mental health facility, people who think like you do are a danger to society.

He's the same guy who asked if Jews were a race.

 

[Steel Mike Tomczak]

One of the several Barry Bonds threads

And I'm not missing the point at all and this is something that there are 40 threads on already. We get it, you hate Bonds. If you want to read what I think read stuff in that link. This conversation is boring and comparing Barry Bonds to Pete Rose at any level just makes zero sense.

Also thanks for changing the thread title. Nice Shark Pool shtick.

Whatever man your opinions carry little value anyway.

No, I wouldn't want any opinions backed with statistical history and a good knowledge base. Thanks for pissing in the baseball forum.

Thank yourself for pissing in my thread. There is no reason to bring stats into a question concerning Bond's steroid use....you are a fool.

 

[Steel Mike Tomczak]

baseball's equivalent of OJ Simpson.

Go check into a mental health facility, people who think like you do are a danger to society.

He's the same guy who asked if Jews were a race.

Still havent got a definitive answer on that one.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

baseball's equivalent of OJ Simpson.

Go check into a mental health facility, people who think like you do are a danger to society.

He's the same guy who asked if Jews were a race.

Still havent got a definitive answer on that one.

God I love the internet.

 

[The Goat]

I think the correct answer is "neither," unless you define "best" very specifically. Are we discussing raw data? How the player compared to other players in his era? All-around ability, or just hitting? Are we including players who were clearly incredibly skilled, but couldn't keep up their performance due to injury?

Anyway, that aside, here are my thoughts on Barry Bonds. Hope I add something useful:

1) If Barry Bonds was more media-savvy, and...well...NICER...we wouldn't be having half of these conversations, and I sincerely think that we wouldn't have seen the witch hunt that we did in 2006. He's a jerk. It's unfortunate.

2) (and this one I feel very strongly about) If anyone decides to put an asterisk on Barry Bonds' records, they had better well put an asterisk on every hitting AND pitching record set over the past 15-20 years. Every single one. Clemens' 300 wins? Asterisk. Ken Caminiti's MVP? Asterisk. Because while some cases of alleged steroid use (like Bonds') certainly appear obvious, there are plenty that don't, and it's virtually imposible to say what did and did not affect performance.

(For what it's worth, the whole HR record debate is going to be a moot point in a little over 8 years, anyway...unless A-Rod has a Griffey-esque run of injuries.)

 

[The Gator]

One of the several Barry Bonds threads

And I'm not missing the point at all and this is something that there are 40 threads on already. We get it, you hate Bonds. If you want to read what I think read stuff in that link. This conversation is boring and comparing Barry Bonds to Pete Rose at any level just makes zero sense.

Also thanks for changing the thread title. Nice Shark Pool shtick.

Whatever man your opinions carry little value anyway.

DD is one of the better baseball people here. You should feel lucky he replied here.

 

[fred_1_15301]

He's being hailed as the best player of all time (or at least best hitter), but does he really deserve it. Just watched him hit 744 today. What are your thoughts of him? Personally, If Pete Rose gets such a bad name for betting, not using steroids or any drugs, Bonds deserves at least as much critism for being a cheater. Lets be honest if he gets away from the steroid charges, he'll be baseball's equivalent of OJ Simpson.

I would say Bonds is neither the best player ever nor the biggest cheater ever. Why is Bonds any more of a cheater than the other guys who took steroids (and you know there are plenty)? Just because he's going after the most glorified record in the history of baseball makes him the biggest cheater? Just because he's probably the most hated athlete in the world makes him the biggest cheater? Bonds is a cheater but he's no bigger cheater than all the other steroid users.

 

[Steel Mike Tomczak]

One of the several Barry Bonds threads

And I'm not missing the point at all and this is something that there are 40 threads on already. We get it, you hate Bonds. If you want to read what I think read stuff in that link. This conversation is boring and comparing Barry Bonds to Pete Rose at any level just makes zero sense.

Also thanks for changing the thread title. Nice Shark Pool shtick.

Whatever man your opinions carry little value anyway.

DD is one of the better baseball people here. You should feel lucky he replied here.

Whatever why dont you start a thread somewhere about your love affair.Dr ##### didnt add anything of value in this thread and I would have been just as satisfied if he never meandered into it, all he did was spit out some mindless dribble about stats which is not pertanent to this discussion. Its no longer a discussion, much more giving shots at each other, so sod off all of you. I dont even hate bonds really, just not down with steroids....I guess thats why baseball is in the sad state that it is in.

 

[The Goat]

One of the several Barry Bonds threads

And I'm not missing the point at all and this is something that there are 40 threads on already. We get it, you hate Bonds. If you want to read what I think read stuff in that link. This conversation is boring and comparing Barry Bonds to Pete Rose at any level just makes zero sense.

Also thanks for changing the thread title. Nice Shark Pool shtick.

Whatever man your opinions carry little value anyway.

DD is one of the better baseball people here. You should feel lucky he replied here.

Whatever why dont you start a thread somewhere about your love affair.Dr ##### didnt add anything of value in this thread and I would have been just as satisfied if he never meandered into it, all he did was spit out some mindless dribble about stats which is not pertanent to this discussion. Its no longer a discussion, much more giving shots at each other, so sod off all of you. I dont even hate bonds really, just not down with steroids....I guess thats why baseball is in the sad state that it is in.

Are you blaming the downfall of baseball on steroids or Doctor Detroit?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

One of the several Barry Bonds threads

And I'm not missing the point at all and this is something that there are 40 threads on already. We get it, you hate Bonds. If you want to read what I think read stuff in that link. This conversation is boring and comparing Barry Bonds to Pete Rose at any level just makes zero sense.

Also thanks for changing the thread title. Nice Shark Pool shtick.

Whatever man your opinions carry little value anyway.

DD is one of the better baseball people here. You should feel lucky he replied here.

Whatever why dont you start a thread somewhere about your love affair.Dr ##### didnt add anything of value in this thread and I would have been just as satisfied if he never meandered into it, all he did was spit out some mindless dribble about stats which is not pertanent to this discussion. Its no longer a discussion, much more giving shots at each other, so sod off all of you. I dont even hate bonds really, just not down with steroids....I guess thats why baseball is in the sad state that it is in.

Are you blaming the downfall of baseball on steroids or Doctor Detroit?

No he's blaming himself for not understanding anything about baseball and the Pro Bowl sucking.

 

[Da Guru]

I think Bonds will be in a totally different catagory.

The Mcguire/Sosa/Palmero Guys who used drugs to improve their performence.

I see why Hank Aaron wants no part of Bonds during this time.

 

[Hov34]

I think there were several better all around players then Bonds. He is probably the best hitter ever but not the best player.

Id say Ted Williams was.

Statistically compared to league averages Bonds has had three of the ten best hitting seasons (2001, 2002, 2004) ever Ted Williams has one (1941). Ted Williams' career was cut short by war but for a career and for individual seasons Bonds is a better hitter. Add in the walks and it is mind boggling. And if you want to talk about his all around play check his fielding ranges, his gold gloves, and his steals.

Was Ted juiced?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I think there were several better all around players then Bonds. He is probably the best hitter ever but not the best player.

Id say Ted Williams was.

Statistically compared to league averages Bonds has had three of the ten best hitting seasons (2001, 2002, 2004) ever Ted Williams has one (1941). Ted Williams' career was cut short by war but for a career and for individual seasons Bonds is a better hitter. Add in the walks and it is mind boggling. And if you want to talk about his all around play check his fielding ranges, his gold gloves, and his steals.

Was Ted juiced?

Did MLB have minority players in 1941?

 

[posty]

One of the best of our generation...

 

[Hov34]

I think there were several better all around players then Bonds. He is probably the best hitter ever but not the best player.

Id say Ted Williams was.

Statistically compared to league averages Bonds has had three of the ten best hitting seasons (2001, 2002, 2004) ever Ted Williams has one (1941). Ted Williams' career was cut short by war but for a career and for individual seasons Bonds is a better hitter. Add in the walks and it is mind boggling. And if you want to talk about his all around play check his fielding ranges, his gold gloves, and his steals.

Was Ted juiced?

Did MLB have minority players in 1941?

Did Ted inject something in his body to prevent minorities from playing?

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I think there were several better all around players then Bonds. He is probably the best hitter ever but not the best player.

Id say Ted Williams was.

Statistically compared to league averages Bonds has had three of the ten best hitting seasons (2001, 2002, 2004) ever Ted Williams has one (1941). Ted Williams' career was cut short by war but for a career and for individual seasons Bonds is a better hitter. Add in the walks and it is mind boggling. And if you want to talk about his all around play check his fielding ranges, his gold gloves, and his steals.

Was Ted juiced?

Did MLB have minority players in 1941?

Did Ted inject something in his body to prevent minorities from playing?

Didn't he?

 

[igbomb]

One of the several Barry Bonds threads

And I'm not missing the point at all and this is something that there are 40 threads on already. We get it, you hate Bonds. If you want to read what I think read stuff in that link. This conversation is boring and comparing Barry Bonds to Pete Rose at any level just makes zero sense.

Also thanks for changing the thread title. Nice Shark Pool shtick.

Whatever man your opinions carry little value anyway.

DD is one of the better baseball people here. You should feel lucky he replied here.

Whatever why dont you start a thread somewhere about your love affair.Dr ##### didnt add anything of value in this thread and I would have been just as satisfied if he never meandered into it, all he did was spit out some mindless dribble about stats which is not pertanent to this discussion. Its no longer a discussion, much more giving shots at each other, so sod off all of you. I dont even hate bonds really, just not down with steroids....I guess thats why baseball is in the sad state that it is in.

1. Steroids was only half of your question. You also asked whether Bonds was the best ever, to which stats would most definitely apply.2. Baseball is in no way in a 'sad state.'

3. Please remove yourself from the baseball forum, permanently.

4. And it's 'drivel', not 'dribble'.

 

[Hov34]

I think there were several better all around players then Bonds. He is probably the best hitter ever but not the best player.

Id say Ted Williams was.

Statistically compared to league averages Bonds has had three of the ten best hitting seasons (2001, 2002, 2004) ever Ted Williams has one (1941). Ted Williams' career was cut short by war but for a career and for individual seasons Bonds is a better hitter. Add in the walks and it is mind boggling. And if you want to talk about his all around play check his fielding ranges, his gold gloves, and his steals.

Was Ted juiced?

Did MLB have minority players in 1941?

Did Ted inject something in his body to prevent minorities from playing?

Didn't he?

Circle gets the square.

 

[Yenrub]

He's being hailed as the best player of all time (or at least best hitter), but does he really deserve it. Just watched him hit 744 today. What are your thoughts of him? Personally, If Pete Rose gets such a bad name for betting, not using steroids or any drugs, Bonds deserves at least as much critism for being a cheater. Lets be honest if he gets away from the steroid charges, he'll be baseball's equivalent of OJ Simpson.

I would say Bonds is neither the best player ever nor the biggest cheater ever. Why is Bonds any more of a cheater than the other guys who took steroids (and you know there are plenty)? Just because he's going after the most glorified record in the history of baseball makes him the biggest cheater? Just because he's probably the most hated athlete in the world makes him the biggest cheater? Bonds is a cheater but he's no bigger cheater than all the other steroid users.

 

[Wrigley]

Joe DiMaggio

Babe Ruth, as far as numbers relative to his peers, was significantly better than Bonds.

Raw numbers yes, plus numbers no. Bonds is nearly Ruth's equal and a few times better. Career wise I think Ruth has the better numbers but it's not by a whole lot. Regardless these are the two best hitters ever. Statistically or visually.

Career OPS+Rank Player (age) Adjusted OPS+ Bats

1. Babe Ruth+* 207 L

2. Ted Williams+* 190 L

3. Barry Bonds* (42) 183 L

4. Lou Gehrig+* 179 L

5. Rogers Hornsby+ 175 R

6. Mickey Mantle+# 172 B

Best OPS plus seasons:2002 Bonds 275

2001 Bonds 262

2004 Bonds 260

1920 Ruth 256

1921 Ruth 239

1923 Ruth 239

2003 Bonds 231

1926 Ruth 227

Ruth had eleven seasons with an OPS + above 200 and Bonds has six. Williams had six and one partial.

How old was he when he did this? The Cream really worked wellWhat a joke.

 

[George Jefferson Airplane]

Joe DiMaggio

Babe Ruth, as far as numbers relative to his peers, was significantly better than Bonds.

Raw numbers yes, plus numbers no. Bonds is nearly Ruth's equal and a few times better. Career wise I think Ruth has the better numbers but it's not by a whole lot. Regardless these are the two best hitters ever. Statistically or visually.

Career OPS+Rank Player (age) Adjusted OPS+ Bats

1. Babe Ruth+* 207 L

2. Ted Williams+* 190 L

3. Barry Bonds* (42) 183 L

4. Lou Gehrig+* 179 L

5. Rogers Hornsby+ 175 R

6. Mickey Mantle+# 172 B

Best OPS plus seasons:2002 Bonds 275

2001 Bonds 262

2004 Bonds 260

1920 Ruth 256

1921 Ruth 239

1923 Ruth 239

2003 Bonds 231

1926 Ruth 227

Ruth had eleven seasons with an OPS + above 200 and Bonds has six. Williams had six and one partial.

How old was he when he did this? The Cream really worked wellWhat a joke.

* 1.1 Lust (Latin, luxuria)* 1.2 Gluttony (Latin, gula)

* 1.3 Greed (Latin, avaritia)

* 1.4 Sloth (Latin, acedia)

* 1.5 Wrath (Latin, ira)

* 1.6 Envy (Latin, invidia)

* 1.7 Pride (Latin, superbia)

 

[whoknew]

Bonds is dead to me

Detroit, youre missing the point. No one argues that Bonds has the stats to be at the top of most lists (behind Ruth of course, in some cases Ted Williams) its the way he went about it, taking steroids, that I am calling into question. The dishonesty of the man, the shadow he casts on his legacy. Thats why I compared him to Rose, not because they are similar players.What are everyones opinions of that?

What Rose did was much, much worse.