Baseball rule question - Balk? (1 Viewer)

[Peak]

I saw an interesting call in a game the other day, that I cannot for the life of me find clear rules for.  Situation; bases empty, pitcher pitching from the stretch.  Pitcher does not come to a complete stop.  Mid pitch, umpire yells "dead ball, balk!"  Pitcher finishes the throw, batter swings and fouls ball off.  Ump awards batter 1st base.  Explanation; count was full, bases empty balk results in ball added to count, ball four, batter gets first base.  Opposing coach contends no balk can be called with bases empty.  Umpire clarifies "if a pitcher is pitching from the stretch, they must come to a complete stop if bases empty or not.  Otherwise it is an illegal pitch, and a ball is added to count."

Google has told me both that in no circumstance is a balk called with bases empty, but I see some online rule books stating pitcher must come to a rest in the stretch, bases empty or not.

FTR, game is being played under NHSF rules.  I'm ordering my rule book tonight, as this is the first time I've seen this one called.  Any umps here know this one?

This is what my son's pitching coach has been preaching to him this off-season.  They are focusing on their pitchers to come to a complete stop, even if for a second.  It has to be noticeable to the ump that you made a stop before you begin your pitching movement.  I don't think it's a new rule, as we had a pitcher warned last season when he didn't come to a complete stop in his motion.

 

[MarvinTScamper]

I coach an 11u club baseball team and we had a tournament this past weekend.  We were in the field and with 2 outs and a runner on 2nd base.  Our pitcher was in the stretch and came set.  The runner on 2nd took off towards 3rd base.  I yelled to the pitcher to step off.  Our pitcher (right handed)  lifted his left leg and stepped toward 3rd and threw out the runner at 3rd base.  The umpire in the field called the runner out.  The 3rd base coach asked for clarification if it was a balk.  He consulted with the home plate umpire and they called a balk.  I went out to talk with them and they said he needed to step off first.  I explained that he does not need to step off for an inside move and that the runner was already halfway to 3rd.  Also, a balk is something called immediately and not changed after the fact.  Of course the next pitch was a passed ball and the runner scored and we lost by 1.

I don't believe it was a balk but does anyone know the rule on this?

Not a balk. 

 

[belljr]

This is what my son's pitching coach has been preaching to him this off-season.  They are focusing on their pitchers to come to a complete stop, even if for a second.  It has to be noticeable to the ump that you made a stop before you begin your pitching movement.  I don't think it's a new rule, as we had a pitcher warned last season when he didn't come to a complete stop in his motion.

Well that's always been the rule with Runners on base the question is with bases empty

 

[heckmanm]

In general, a "balk" action with the bases empty is treated as an "illegal pitch", and as noted above, a ball is awarded to the batter.  So mostly a terminology distinction. I think there are a few things that would be a balk with baserunners, that wouldn't be an illegal pitch without them.

 

[Gally]

This is what my son's pitching coach has been preaching to him this off-season.  They are focusing on their pitchers to come to a complete stop, even if for a second.  It has to be noticeable to the ump that you made a stop before you begin your pitching movement.  I don't think it's a new rule, as we had a pitcher warned last season when he didn't come to a complete stop in his motion.

My guess is that the coach is preaching this so it is a habit when someone is on base.  I have never heard of a call "not stopping" if nobody is on base.  This is probably a situation that by the letter of the law it is a balk to not stop from the stretch position but it is never enforced if there are no base runners.  Very strange call for sure.  I have never seen it called with nobody on base.  Typically without anybody on base the pitcher can alter his delivery (speed up, slow down, pause a la Cueto, go sidearm, etc)  to no penalty because nobody is on base. 

Regardless, I have never heard of a balk call for not stopping with nobody on base.

 

[Bull Dozier]

In general, a "balk" action with the bases empty is treated as an "illegal pitch", and as noted above, a ball is awarded to the batter.  So mostly a terminology distinction. I think there are a few things that would be a balk with baserunners, that wouldn't be an illegal pitch without them.

It was bugging me not finding a definitive answer, so I ordered the high school rule book and confirmed this is an "illegal pitch" with no runners on, and a ball is awarded.

 

[Cjw_55106]

It was bugging me not finding a definitive answer, so I ordered the high school rule book and confirmed this is an "illegal pitch" with no runners on, and a ball is awarded.

That is the rule, but most times the ump will remind the pitcher to pause the first time it happens. 

 

[[icon]]

Agreed. I don't want to argue either.

Showing an umpire s/he is wrong won't/shouldn't get you ejected. Showing an umpire up will. Bringing a rule book out onto the field does just that.

Walking up and respectfully approaching the topic with the Ump is the play... one on one (unless the opposing coach runs up and wants to interject). "Hey blue, I was hoping you could help me out with some clarification on what grounds that was ruled a balk?" "I see, well I respect your judgement, but just wanted to let you know that I'm almost certain the rule book states he can throw to third if there is an imminent play there." 

Or somesuch... 

"WTF Blue, you might wanna learn the rules before you step behind the plate... the rule says X.. SEE (waves book in face)?!" will likely earn ya the hook

 

[MarvinTScamper]

Walking up and respectfully approaching the topic with the Ump is the play... one on one (unless the opposing coach runs up and wants to interject). "Hey blue, I was hoping you could help me out with some clarification on what grounds that was ruled a balk?" "I see, well I respect your judgement, but just wanted to let you know that I'm almost certain the rule book states he can throw to third if there is an imminent play there." 

Or somesuch... 

"WTF Blue, you might wanna learn the rules before you step behind the plate... the rule says X.. SEE (waves book in face)?!" will likely earn ya the hook

yep.   Oddly, many of the guys willing to be head coach DO NOT POSSESS the nuances of subtlety.

 

[The Commish]

I saw an interesting call in a game the other day, that I cannot for the life of me find clear rules for.  Situation; bases empty, pitcher pitching from the stretch.  Pitcher does not come to a complete stop.  Mid pitch, umpire yells "dead ball, balk!"  Pitcher finishes the throw, batter swings and fouls ball off.  Ump awards batter 1st base.  Explanation; count was full, bases empty balk results in ball added to count, ball four, batter gets first base.  Opposing coach contends no balk can be called with bases empty.  Umpire clarifies "if a pitcher is pitching from the stretch, they must come to a complete stop if bases empty or not.  Otherwise it is an illegal pitch, and a ball is added to count."

Google has told me both that in no circumstance is a balk called with bases empty, but I see some online rule books stating pitcher must come to a rest in the stretch, bases empty or not.

FTR, game is being played under NHSF rules.  I'm ordering my rule book tonight, as this is the first time I've seen this one called.  Any umps here know this one?

This would technically be considered an "illegal pitch", not a balk.  Timeout is called and the ump can give a ball to the batter.  Usually, I'd issue a warning or two (trying to educate the pitcher on what he's doing wrong) and a "no pitch"...basically a do over.  If he keeps doing it, I begin giving a ball to the batter.

ETA:  Heckmanm is all over it

 

[The Commish]

hmm I don't know for sure. But a balk can be called if bases empty.   For example - you you are on the mound a drop the ball, it's a balk and a ball is added.

I didn't think you had to come to rest in a stretch with no one on though.  So I guess I don't know  

When in the stretch, you always have to come to a stop....doesn't matter if anyone's on base or not.

 

[Short Corner]

In general, a "balk" action with the bases empty is treated as an "illegal pitch", and as noted above, a ball is awarded to the batter.  So mostly a terminology distinction. I think there are a few things that would be a balk with baserunners, that wouldn't be an illegal pitch without them.

This, but an illegal pitch is a delayed dead ball and any action supercedes the illegal pitch.

A balk, by definition, is an attempt to deceive a base runner, so it is impossible to balk with the bases empty.

 

[Short Corner]

My guess is that the coach is preaching this so it is a habit when someone is on base.  I have never heard of a call "not stopping" if nobody is on base.  This is probably a situation that by the letter of the law it is a balk to not stop from the stretch position but it is never enforced if there are no base runners.  Very strange call for sure.  I have never seen it called with nobody on base.  Typically without anybody on base the pitcher can alter his delivery (speed up, slow down, pause a la Cueto, go sidearm, etc)  to no penalty because nobody is on base. 

Regardless, I have never heard of a balk call for not stopping with nobody on base.

Assuming he hasn't already presented the ball, it is a quick pitch when the bases are empty.

 

[Short Corner]

When in the stretch, you always have to come to a stop....doesn't matter if anyone's on base or not.

Not if you start in a set position.

 

[The Commish]

When in the stretch, you always have to come to a stop....doesn't matter if anyone's on base or not.

Not if you start in a set position.

Then you aren't "in the stretch"....you're already set