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Bass N’ Brew Dirty Baker’s Dozen (1 Viewer)

I honestly wonder if Walker will be the same player after Williams' murder. I know if shouldn't affect his playing ability, but it might.
Absolutely, Walker is useless now. Cutler ignored him like the plague last year, too.
:shrug: nice expression. H.K.: "When the black death comes to your door just ignore it and you will be fine". :shrug:
Thanks for the contribution. :blackdot:
Walker averaged over 8 targets a game with Plummer (high of 13).With Cutler at QB, the most targets Walker ever got was 8.
This is the kind of logic, if you don't dig deeper into the reasons for this, that will make Walker one of the better values this year.Good posting BnB, I don't agree with all, but on the whole, a very good list.
Value is attached to the cost of acquisition.Recap:

Bass predicted Walker would be top 5 in 2007, I stated the fact he was putting up WR3 numbers with Cutler last year.

Bass wanted to make a sig bet. I accepted saying no way is Walker Top 5. Bass then wanted to lower the ranking of Walker for the bet based on my expectation. I didn't bite because I was challenging his ranking of Walker as a Top 5 WR....no bet was made.

Summary: Bass does not expect Walker to be Top 5, if he did, he would back it up.
That's fine and all, I'm referring to your # of targets posting. What you and Bass do on your free time is none of my concern.
 
That's fine and all, I'm referring to your # of targets posting. What you and Bass do on your free time is none of my concern.
Ah, I see. Another Fact (actual # of targets) vs. Conjecture (Anticipating an increase in targets) argument. I think there is a chance his targets could increase, but based on his numbers with Cutler at QB, IMO they would need to increase a lot for Walker to sniff the Top 10, let alone top 5.Seriously, you said he'd be a "value". At what point in the draft does Walker represent value? WR5? WR10? WR20?eta: I am speaking in terms of a PPR format when I discuss Walker, and so that plays a factor.
 
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Recap:

Bass predicted Walker would be top 5 in 2007, I stated the fact he was putting up WR3 numbers with Cutler last year.

Bass wanted to make a sig bet. I accepted saying no way is Walker Top 5. Bass then wanted to lower the ranking of Walker for the bet based on my expectation. I didn't bite because I was challenging his ranking of Walker as a Top 5 WR....no bet was made.

Summary: Bass does not expect Walker to be Top 5, if he did, he would back it up.
More accurately...Bass noted that Walker is being drafted at WR15.

Bass has Walker ranked at WR5

HK may have him ranked at WR6 or may not think he's a value at WR15 based on his posts in this thread.

Bass only makes bets when the odds weigh heavily in his favor. If Walker finishes 6th after sitting out the last game to rest for the playoffs, Bass loses even though Bass had predicted a ranking of 5th.

Bass is smart and isn't falling for HK's ploys or goading. HK is smart and didn't take the under on Walker at WR15.

 
More accurately...Bass noted that Walker is being drafted at WR15.Bass has Walker ranked at WR5HK may have him ranked at WR6 or may not think he's a value at WR15 based on his posts in this thread.Bass only makes bets when the odds weigh heavily in his favor. If Walker finishes 6th after sitting out the last game to rest for the playoffs, Bass loses even though Bass had predicted a ranking of 5th.Bass is smart and isn't falling for HK's ploys or goading. HK is smart and didn't take the under on Walker at WR15.
:ph34r: Even more specifically, HK was looking for simple risk mitigation. If Walker finishes as WR5, HK likes his chances for a three-peat. Not much downside to losing a silly bet to Bass compared to the $ earned elsewhere. As of now, WR 15 - 20 seems about right. He was WR12 in PPR last year, and much worse than that with Cutler at QB. In our personal scenario, he has more value for the price of a low to medium WR2 to me than the cost of a high WR1.
 
More accurately...Bass noted that Walker is being drafted at WR15.Bass has Walker ranked at WR5HK may have him ranked at WR6 or may not think he's a value at WR15 based on his posts in this thread.Bass only makes bets when the odds weigh heavily in his favor. If Walker finishes 6th after sitting out the last game to rest for the playoffs, Bass loses even though Bass had predicted a ranking of 5th.Bass is smart and isn't falling for HK's ploys or goading. HK is smart and didn't take the under on Walker at WR15.
:boxing: Even more specifically, HK was looking for simple risk mitigation. If Walker finishes as WR5, HK likes his chances for a three-peat. Not much downside to losing a silly bet to Bass compared to the $ earned elsewhere. As of now, WR 15 - 20 seems about right. He was WR12 in PPR last year, and much worse than that with Cutler at QB. In our personal scenario, he has more value for the price of a low to medium WR2 to me than the cost of a high WR1.
I think you're not putting enough weight into several factors from last year. Walker changed teams. Every WR in history not name TO has a sub-par season after changing teams. Walker was coming off a major knee injury. I believe that the knee will be stronger this year and his performance will improve. Cutler/rookie QB had an impact as you pointed out. An entire training camp working with Cutler and Shanahan putting more trust in Cutler will alevate that issue. The fact that he finished as WR12 last year is simply amazing to me.
 
I think you're not putting enough weight into several factors from last year. Walker changed teams. Every WR in history not name TO has a sub-par season after changing teams. Walker was coming off a major knee injury. I believe that the knee will be stronger this year and his performance will improve. Cutler/rookie QB had an impact as you pointed out. An entire training camp working with Cutler and Shanahan putting more trust in Cutler will alevate that issue. The fact that he finished as WR12 last year is simply amazing to me.
I know where you are coming from, and he also ran for 123 yards and score last year, too.My biggest HOWEVER is that ~70 catches, 1200 total yards & 9 TD's is tough to exceed, let alone replicate.He was tied for 21st with Cotchery for targets (125) in 2006. To put up Top 5 numbers, I suspect he'd need at least a 1.5-2 target per game increase this season. As I stated previously, he produced much worse with Cutler, so IMO expecting a drop off is not much of a stretch, either. Hopefully he can put up numbers in the ballpark of what he did last season. Due to the QB change and the bar being set so high from last season I certainly don't expect him to improve by much, if at all.
 
That's fine and all, I'm referring to your # of targets posting. What you and Bass do on your free time is none of my concern.
Ah, I see. Another Fact (actual # of targets) vs. Conjecture (Anticipating an increase in targets) argument. I think there is a chance his targets could increase, but based on his numbers with Cutler at QB, IMO they would need to increase a lot for Walker to sniff the Top 10, let alone top 5.Seriously, you said he'd be a "value". At what point in the draft does Walker represent value? WR5? WR10? WR20?eta: I am speaking in terms of a PPR format when I discuss Walker, and so that plays a factor.
fact: Cutler was a rookiefact: Denver has invested a lot into their passing gamefact: Cutler practiced more with Schefler and Marshall before he got the starting gigfact: QBs like to throw to their best receiverI wouldn't let Walker fall past WR10, he has the upside to be the top WR in the league if Cutler continues to develop. I'd say BnB is pretty close in his projection for next year.
 
fact: Cutler was a rookie

Agreed, this leads many to the assumption his experience last season and in training camp will equate to improvement

fact: Denver has invested a lot into their passing game

I assume you mean addition of Cutler, Walker, Schefler & Marshall recently? Sort of a mandated investment with the aging Plummer, Rod Smith & Lelie bust....but I agree with this point. But this is an inxperienced group now, too. Investment is not a guarantee for success.

fact: Cutler practiced more with Schefler and Marshall before he got the starting gig

Makes sense given experience levels of the players and their position on the depth chart

fact: QBs like to throw to their best receiver

OK, here is where I'm a little leery. "Best" may sometimes be the same as favorite, guys who get the targets have a better shot at getting the stats. I am extremely cautious here. Walker's targets extrapolated to 112 last year with Cutler at QB. This concerns me. As I said earlier, he's going to need a BIG bump in targets from Cutler to even sniff the Top 10. Cutler split 1st team reps with Plummer some during the season, and had plenty of time to work with Walker at the end of last year, too.

I wouldn't let Walker fall past WR10, he has the upside to be the top WR in the league if Cutler continues to develop. I'd say BnB is pretty close in his projection for next year.

Thanks for responding. I understand your position, and it will probably be the popular one. I hope we'll see who Cutler likes in camp and the pre-season and have a better guage at that time.
 
LHUCKS said:
Jerry Porter and Ashley Lelie
:lmao: Lets wait and see their situations first.
I was hoping that he would expand on this. Seem like lottery plays to me. Davis may pull a Marcus Allen on Porter. Even if your in the Vick sucks camp, Lelie couldn't find his way past some pretty inferior NFL talent. In a way they both remind me of David Boston to a lesser extent.
 
LHUCKS said:
Jerry Porter and Ashley Lelie
:thumbup: Lets wait and see their situations first.
I was hoping that he would expand on this. Seem like lottery plays to me. Davis may pull a Marcus Allen on Porter. Even if your in the Vick sucks camp, Lelie couldn't find his way past some pretty inferior NFL talent. In a way they both remind me of David Boston to a lesser extent.
they were the picks of his I liked the least in the WSL. granted some upside is there, but given the relative unknown they present, right now. Calling them value plays doesn't make alot of sense. Porter is talented, but lelie's market as a wr#1 just wont be there IMO.
 
LHUCKS said:
Jerry Porter and Ashley Lelie
:shrug: Lets wait and see their situations first.
I was hoping that he would expand on this. Seem like lottery plays to me. Davis may pull a Marcus Allen on Porter. Even if your in the Vick sucks camp, Lelie couldn't find his way past some pretty inferior NFL talent. In a way they both remind me of David Boston to a lesser extent.
they were the picks of his I liked the least in the WSL. granted some upside is there, but given the relative unknown they present, right now. Calling them value plays doesn't make alot of sense. Porter is talented, but lelie's market as a wr#1 just wont be there IMO.
:thumbup:
 
Porter = talent + questionable opportunity
subscription says Porter is value at where I drafted him??
Lelie = questionable talent + questionalbe opportunity
Try to keep up with the news Bass:
According to a report on FOX Sports, Atlanta WR Ashley Lelie voided his contract on Friday and is now scheduled to become an unrestricted free agent. He had play-time incentives that allowed him to void the final year remaining on his contract. This likely makes him the top free agent wide out on the open market. Lelie played in 15 games for the Falcons. He had 28 receptions for 430 yards and 1 TD. (Updated 01/26/2007).
I drafted these guys at WR#74 and #75 BTW.
 
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Porter = talent + questionable opportunity
subscription says Porter is value at where I drafted him??
Lelie = questionable talent + questionalbe opportunity
Try to keep up with the news Bass:
According to a report on FOX Sports, Atlanta WR Ashley Lelie voided his contract on Friday and is now scheduled to become an unrestricted free agent. He had play-time incentives that allowed him to void the final year remaining on his contract. This likely makes him the top free agent wide out on the open market. Lelie played in 15 games for the Falcons. He had 28 receptions for 430 yards and 1 TD. (Updated 01/26/2007).
I drafted these guys at WR#74 and #75 BTW.
I agree with you on Porter if he escapes Al's doghouse. Didn't he park in Al's space? Good risk where you drafted him though.Did Lelie void his bad hands and poor route running skills along with that contract?
 
Note: ADP based on three January drafts 1/2/3/1/1/1 lineup (best ball). 1 pt ppr (2 pt ppr TE), 1 pt / 10 yd rush and rec, 1 pt / 20 yd pass, all TDs = 6.

Shout out to ffweasel ADP Spreadsheet

The things we do to avoid tax preparation. As you read this, keep in mind that I tried to highlight value plays from the top to bottom of the draft and across all positions. Obviously the list could be deeper at RB/WR if I solely focused there and there are tons of sleepers out there. I also tried to stay focused on value plays that were stat or situational based rather then gut based (except for one instance).

Jay Cutler QB17 – I’ll admit that I was a detractor last year and think Shanahan kissed the season good bye pre-maturely. That said Cutler posted QB9 numbers during his starting role on a ppg basis. Cutler offers solid value as viable situational starter at this draft position.



Finished QB11, decent value, good call

Matt Hasselbeck QB8 – Last year most experts had him ranked in the top five. Hasselbeck has finished the fantasy in the top five twice in the last four years. I haven’t seen any changes in Seattle that would suggest a regression in the passing game. Branch should be adapted to the system in his second year and there are several other WR options on the roster even if DJax departs. Furthermore, a division which includes STL, SF, and ARI lends itself. Good players coming off injuries often offer opportunity.

Finished QB6 not bad.

Laurence Maroney RB17 – Interestingly enough his ADP was only a few spots behind this last year. Going to the tape, Maroney posted numbers of 175-745-6 rushing and 22-194-1 receiving in 14 games. I like those numbers, especially the receptions in split duty during a rookie campaign. If Maroney becomes the guy, his upside is huge in the NE system. I see 2006 as the absolute floor and really believe that Belichick was limiting his action as a rookie to keep him from hitting the wall as the Pats generally play more games than most teams.

RB25 missed

Lamont Jordan RB24 - Last year he was being drafted in the mid to late first and I warned of a bust. This year you can get him in the fifth round. Why was I waving the bust flag…Art Shell and his motel manager. Fast forward and 2007 brings a piece of the USC offensive juggernaut to hold the reigns. Kiffin has already stated there will be changes to the offensive. I wonder if the guy who watched Bush might notice that Jordan had 70 receptions in 2005? His drop-off in receiving numbers alone was about 120 ff points. The 2006 Raiders offense was a mess and Jordan’s stock has fallen accordingly. Ask yourself, is he any less skilled then he was in 2005?

RB41 missed

Damanick Williams RB46 – Who??? Per the blogger/ESPN…HOUSTON -- Domanick Davis appeared in Houston's locker room Monday with a new haircut and a new attitude. But the biggest change is in his name. "I'm a new man," he said. "That was Domanick Davis that y'all knew about. This is Domanick Williams that y'all looking at." Williams said he is feeling great and he can't wait to get back on the field. "I wouldn't say I'm 100 percent, but its close," he said. "It's on its way and it's going real good. My knee is allowing me to lift heavy weight without swelling up and that was the biggest

problem I had." I’ll take this risk with the upside in the 12th-14th round. Hey FBG.com, up date your site to reflect the correct name.

Missed

TJ Duckett RB62 – Call it a gut feeling, but I see him wearing Panther teal and black. Fox longs for a bruiser RB and will sign someone in the Stephan Davis mold this off season. Grab him now before he signs as his price will go up. Definitely worth a stab with your last round pick.

push - but its really a miss

Terrell Owens WR9 – Yeah, I can stand him either. Fact of the matter is that he’s finished in the top five WR on a ppg basis in 6 of the last 7 years and never lower than WR9 during those years. He’s the second best WR in the game behind Steve Smith and about 2 rounds undervalued. If your league let’s the LT owner select him, I hope that you have a monetary prize for second place.



Good call!

Javon Walker WR14 – This could be the biggest bargain of the year. He finished 2006 as WR9 people…after changing teams…coming off a major knee injury…with a rookie QB for half the year. He broke every fantasy football rule in the book. Last year’s production was his floor for this year. Walker is a top five WR.

Miss

Terrance Copper WR78 – At this stage in the off season, Copper is a must have flyer for me. Horn could very well be gone and Copper could be lining up across form Colsten. This is the game that stood out to me http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20061112_NO@PIT Horn out, Colsten healthy, and Henderson available. Henderson is being drafted much higher, but I see him as the third WR. Regardless, WR flyers are best spent on players that play for explosive offenses.

Miss

Randy Michael TE12 – Three things you can count on; death, taxes (me putting them off), and McMichael being the last available third tier TE available in your draft. He finished 9th last year in the 2 ppr format with an unsettled QB situation and sparse TDs.

Miss

Eric Johnson TE26 – Johnson finished ranked #22 in 2 ppr leagues despite missing 4 games. Not sure of his home team this year, but he could land in a very good situation. You just can’t pass on top ten talent as the beer is running low at the draft.

push

John Kasey K17 – Don’t draft a kicker early. Kasey went 24/27 last year, with all three misses beyond 50+. Speaking of which, if you’re in a distance based league, he was 8/8 from 40-49 and 4/7 from 50+. I expect the Panthers offensive to bounce back enough to increase Kasy’s opportunities.



miss

Joe Nedney K20 – Just wanted to remind you that he finished ranked #7 last year.

miss
W3L8

P2

By my count. And only 1 of those W's is worth anything. Looks like you cant count right either thats not 12

 
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Push on Davis IMO, even posted the report that led him to form the conclusion he'd actually play so...cmon it was February.

Bad list for Bass, he's been around long enough though I'm pretty confident if he didn't try to nail it down to 13 he'd have done better

 

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