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Battle of New Orleans: will there be bloodshed today? (1 Viewer)

fatness said:
From the live feed, full of photos.

Anticlimactic ending for Higgs.
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What the hell does this mean?  My views on this subject are, if anything, on the liberal side.  I said earlier in the thread I supported the removal of the confederate flag and even the removal of the monuments.  Are you lazy or just trolling?

 
If anything the lack of any significant unrest today validates what I've been saying for years in here - America isn't as racist as those on the Left like to believe.

 
@Higgs, I didn't know that. I don't support the removal of these monuments for the record, and they're monuments of a system that abused, humiliated, and degraded humanity in a fundamental way. Slavery always does. 

But buildings, public spaces, parks, monuments, namings, etc., are woven into our fabric as a culture. In a way this reminds me of communist architecture smashing and destroying those kingdom and royal buildings that existed and were products of systems that ensured everyone was a ward of the state. It's sad. 

We make pilgrimages to see the pyramids every year, a product of a system arguably worse than our slaveholding one. 

It's a tough issue. 

 
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It feels good screwing with racists, but I don't like doing it this way.  Seems like we could just put a plaque in front of the monuments saying how these people supported a dehumanizing institution and anyone that reveres them should be shunned or something like that.

 
Dedfin said:
It feels good screwing with racists, but I don't like doing it this way.  Seems like we could just put a plaque in front of the monuments saying how these people supported a dehumanizing institution and anyone that reveres them should be shunned or something like that.
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It's here where I think sensible dialogue and the marketplace of ideas enters into the equation, but that's too much for some people. Our past is embarrassing; 180 degrees from it is also blind to wisdom, prudence, and justice.

 
rockaction said:
It's here where I think sensible dialogue and the marketplace of ideas enters into the equation, but that's too much for some people. Our past is embarrassing; 180 degrees from it is also blind to wisdom, prudence, and justice.
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Not that removing the statues does that explicitly, but I think generally the last thing we should do as a country is whitewash some of our shameful past.  We should all know about slavery, the genocide of the Native Americans, institutionalized racism, and no beer sold on Sundays so we don't repeat these in the future.  I do think taking away these statues chips away at that.

 
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Reg Lllama of Brixton said:
This is true.  So was Jefferson Sessions.  I mean Davis.
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Look, they didn't honor the democratic process and their rights were suspended. There were a million tough issues that came when a society was allowed to flourish from compulsory unpaid labor, the denial of which to the individual "master" was met with violence and disregard for basic human rights.  

Sort of like how, well...modern terrorists act.

 
Dedfin said:
Not that removing the statues does that explicitly, but I think generally the last thing we should do as a country is whitewash some of our shameful past.  We should all know about slavery, the genocide of the Native Americans, institutionalized racism, and no beer solid on Sundays so we don't repeat these in the future.  I do think taking away these statues chips away at that.
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shameful

But in all seriousness, the worst thing we can do is whitewash our history. Another bad thing to do is delegitimize our governing principles because they were not extended to all men, and then women.  

 
GilbertGrape said:
How do you feel about George Washington?
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George Washington and his merry band were smart enough to declare themselves the recipients of natural rights, which they insisted were violated. They had a governing principle for their declarations. The slave holders had no such natural right or justice on their side and could only dehumanize to legitimize their behaviors.  

So it is a bit different.  

 
I'll tell ya what though, there was nearly a perfect correlation between the people flying dixie flags and other aryan/kkk/misc racist badges/flags/banners/hats.  If the dixie flag isn't about racism, it sure has the same fans as those that are.  I think some people need to come to grips with that.  Building on that, I think some people wanting to keep the statues for heritage reasons should do some thinking what their heritage means.

 
rockaction said:
George Washington and his merry band were smart enough to declare themselves the recipients of natural rights, which they insisted were violated. They had a governing principle for their declarations. The slave holders had no such natural right or justice on their side and could only dehumanize to legitimize their behaviors.  

So it is a bit different.  
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No it's not. Both wars were ultimately about money, which is what most wars are about. 

 
Dedfin said:
I'll tell ya what though, there was nearly a perfect correlation between the people flying dixie flags and other aryan/kkk/misc racist badges/flags/banners/hats.  If the dixie flag isn't about racism, it sure has the same fans as those that are.  I think some people need to come to grips with that.  Building on that, I think some people wanting to keep the statues for heritage reasons should do some thinking what their heritage means.
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I agree. Often, if you scratch around a little when a person celebrates Dixie paraphernalia, you'll get a racist. 

 
I get both sides but man, I have a hard time thinking it's ok to remove all the monuments. Regardless what one thinks about the racial aspects, the civil war was incredible and frankly awe-inspiring. To charge into a group of people who are shooting at you knowing there's a very good chance you could die and doing it anyway, well to me, that was an amazing war. I have done a lot of reading and watched lots of documentaries, shows, movies, etc... on the civil war and it truly was unbelievable. 

I think the monuments should all stay as a tribute to the bravery these men had - regardless what side they fought on. It's a huge piece of our history and the past is the past. No reason to sweep it under the rug. It happened. But I'm convinced that regardless the side, the men who fought in the civil war were some of the bravest Americans our country has ever seen and it would be a dishonor to that bravery for their tributes to be removed.

 
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T J said:
I get both sides but man, I have a hard time thinking it's ok to remove all the monuments. Regardless what one thinks about the racial aspects, the civil war was incredible and frankly awe-inspiring. To charge into a group of people who are shooting at you knowing there's a very good chance you could die and doing it anyway, well to me, that was an amazing war. I have done a lot of reading and watched lots of documentaries, shows, movies, etc... on the civil war and it truly was unbelievable. 

I think the monuments should all stay as a tribute to the bravery these men had - regardless what side they fought on. It's a huge piece of our history and the past is the past. No reason to sweep it under the rug. It happened. But I'm convinced that regardless the side, the men who fought in the civil war were some of the bravest Americans our country has ever seen and it would be a dishonor to that bravery for their tributes to be removed.
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2% of the country died fighting in that war.  It would be comparable to losing 6.5 million in a war today.  I don't feel good about taking down monuments either.  But if it will bring some closure for blacks then I think the greater good is served.  Plus, the monuments are going to be preserved somewhere (or at least that's what I heard).

 
Wanted to make a comment discussing any comparisons to Talibans Afghanistan and their destruction of all history inclusive of figural/representational art... but am too loopy on a giant mixed cocktail of meds right now.

Oh... Also archaeologists' desire to attribute their own political agenda to archaeological data... Communist chinese/Soviets seeing Communists through history and US seeing democracy (granted, more during the cold war).

Also that "civil war is incredible because it's scary to fight in wars" post kinda messed with my already screwy head.

 
rockaction said:
@Higgs, I didn't know that. I don't support the removal of these monuments for the record, and they're monuments of a system that abused, humiliated, and degraded humanity in a fundamental way. Slavery always does. 

But buildings, public spaces, parks, monuments, namings, etc., are woven into our fabric as a culture. In a way this reminds me of communist architecture smashing and destroying those kingdom and royal buildings that existed and were products of systems that ensured everyone was a ward of the state. It's sad. 

We make pilgrimages to see the pyramids every year, a product of a system arguably worse than our slaveholding one. 

It's a tough issue. 
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It's very tough, I agree.  The Roman Coliseum is another monument - built on the backs of slaves and home to some of the most barbaric public scenes in history.  The guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence was a slave owner and likely an incestuous pedophile as well.  JFK was a horrible sexist and womanizer.  I means Jesus - the list could go on and on.

I don't like the idea of whitewashing history, but in this one case I can see some concrete benefit to removing these specific monuments.  But it should end there.  I am very worried though that this will embolden the crazy fringe Lefties who are obsessed with this kind of stuff (the slippery slope we warned about earlier).   

 
Higgs said:
It's very tough, I agree.  The Roman Coliseum is another monument - built on the backs of slaves and home to some of the most barbaric public scenes in history.  The guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence was a slave owner and likely an incestuous pedophile as well.  JFK was a horrible sexist and womanizer.  I means Jesus - the list could go on and on.

I don't like the idea of whitewashing history, but in this one case I can see some concrete benefit to removing these specific monuments.  But it should end there.  I am very worried though that this will embolden the crazy fringe Lefties who are obsessed with this kind of stuff (the slippery slope we warned about earlier).   
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Having consensual sex with a bunch of chicks is on par with buying, selling and torturing people? Okay. 

 
Sheriff Bart said:
Having consensual sex with a bunch of chicks is on par with buying, selling and torturing people? Okay. 
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I don't believe I drew such an equivalency.    Simply pointing out that almost every historical figure, symbol and icon is littered with controversy.  And I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss JFK's womanizing.  It's not like he was sleeping around with teenage interns or German spies, right?

 
T J said:
I get both sides but man, I have a hard time thinking it's ok to remove all the monuments. Regardless what one thinks about the racial aspects, the civil war was incredible and frankly awe-inspiring. To charge into a group of people who are shooting at you knowing there's a very good chance you could die and doing it anyway, well to me, that was an amazing war. I have done a lot of reading and watched lots of documentaries, shows, movies, etc... on the civil war and it truly was unbelievable. 

I think the monuments should all stay as a tribute to the bravery these men had - regardless what side they fought on. It's a huge piece of our history and the past is the past. No reason to sweep it under the rug. It happened. But I'm convinced that regardless the side, the men who fought in the civil war were some of the bravest Americans our country has ever seen and it would be a dishonor to that bravery for their tributes to be removed.
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This. 

We can learn from our past failures and move on, as a nation, without removing all evidence of our history. 

 

 
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Drove by the Beauregard statue last night around 10pm that had about 4 knuckleheads waving the stars and bars and other KKK paraphnalia. I wish I had some firecrackers to toss their way just to see them pee in their pants. The guys looked liked they played the Johnny reb version of dungeons and dragons in their parents basement.

 
Higgs said:
The problem with doing something like this is that it doesn't just stop there.  Remember how all this started, with removing the confederate flag flying over public property in SC after Dylan Roof?  Most thought that was ok, but some people cautioned, what next?  Will the Left look to remove statues?  Replace the $2 and $20 bills?  Change street names?  Mascot names?  Where does it end?
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Hey, what did Thomas Jefferson do to anyone???  

 
I can respect that many were of mind to defend their homes, their families, their friends and their way of life, but they also had to be cognizant that they were defending a morally bankrupt and utterly decrepit and evil system.  Because this issue is so clear cut, even when you factor in the "thinking of the times," these do not deserve a place of honor.  Perhaps a museum where we could reflect on the history and put it in its proper context or some other more appropriate setting.

 
ffldrew said:
Drove by the Beauregard statue last night around 10pm that had about 4 knuckleheads waving the stars and bars and other KKK paraphnalia. I wish I had some firecrackers to toss their way just to see them pee in their pants. The guys looked liked they played the Johnny reb version of dungeons and dragons in their parents basement.
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Apparently Pierre is owned by City Park, there's a wrinkle there.

 
Rove! said:
I can respect that many were of mind to defend their homes, their families, their friends and their way of life, but they also had to be cognizant that they were defending a morally bankrupt and utterly decrepit and evil system.  Because this issue is so clear cut, even when you factor in the "thinking of the times," these do not deserve a place of honor.  Perhaps a museum where we could reflect on the history and put it in its proper context or some other more appropriate setting.
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I appreciate your first sentence, many people cannot even make that statement.  But, do you really think the soldiers that fought for the Confederacy were cognizant of what you say?  The people of this time did not have that view of slavery.  Anti-slavery thinking was not prevalent at the time, north or south.  You address the "thinking of the times", but all history has to be viewed with the "thinking of the times".  If not, then you cannot truly understand history or the actions of people in history.

5-6% of southerners owned slaves.  The vast majority of the men that fought to defend their states were not slave owners, nor were they fighting for slavery.  Do you think every soldier fights because they agree with their government?   I do not.

I understand that many of the statues being attacked are dedicated to generals and other leaders of the Confederacy, and they should each be judged individually.  Painting every Confederate with a broad brush is not the way to address history.  Confederate history IS American history, and cannot, and should not be erased.  People always mention slippery slopes, and people always says that isn't the case.  Yet, it keeps coming up as more and more things are being attacked.  Is that not a slippery slope?

Along those same lines, painting everyone with a Confederate flag with the same brush is not the way to deal with people.  They too should be addressed on an individual basis.  If you see them and they are yelling at others, giving the Nazi Salute (or Bellamy salute ... look it up) and yelling white power (or any one of those alone), then judge away.  I'm judging them too.  But, if they are doing none of those things, maybe you should start a conversation.  You may learn something about them.

It is well known to many on this board that I am a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.  I have stated my thoughts and impressions here multiple times.  I fly many different flags at my house, rotating between US, Revolutionary, Confederate and South Carolina.  I also have a state issued SCV license tag on my car, with a Confederate Battle Flag on it.

 
 blurb on my FB feed saying that some industrious chap is going around spray painting the names of prominent Confederate folk on a bunch of potholes down there - so that the city of New Orleans will finally pay attention to them  :lmao:

:popcorn:

 
Mjolnirs said:
I fly many different flags at my house, rotating between US, Revolutionary, Confederate and South Carolina.  I also have a state issued SCV license tag on my car, with a Confederate Battle Flag on it.
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Stars and Bars, or battle flag?  I have a stars and bars as well as a Bonnie Blue hanging in my garage (along with many other historical flags all the way back to the Revolution).  99% of people who seem have no idea what they are.

 
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matttyl said:
Stars and Bars, or battle flag?  I have a stars and bars as well as a Bonnie Blue hanging in my garage (along with many other historical flags all the way back to the Revolution).  99% of people who seem have no idea what they are.
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Shocker.

 
Dedfin said:
Shocker.
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That 99% of people have no idea what any of them are?  Agreed.

You have any idea what the Bonnie Blue flag is?  Or what the "Stars and Bars" refers to?  A Bennington flag?  Green Mountain Boys flag?  Sons of Liberty?  Grand Union?  I've got plenty of flags covering the walls of my garage.

 
matttyl said:
Stars and Bars, or battle flag?  I have a stars and bars as well as a Bonnie Blue hanging in my garage (along with many other historical flags all the way back to the Revolution).  99% of people who seem have no idea what they are.
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My current flag inventory:
Stars and Stripes. I'm hoping to acquire a 15 striped US flag.
Confederate - First National (Stars and Bars), Second National (Stainless Banner), Third National, Battle Flag, Bonnie Blue, Sovereignty flag, Secession flag.
Revolutionary - Two different Ft. Sullivan flags, Betsy Ross flag.
South Carolina state flag and South Carolina Two Day flag.
Gamecock and Viking flags.

I'm currently flying the Third National and Bonnie Blue.  30 foot pole that holds two flags.

 
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