Belichek being accused by former player (1 Viewer)

[Gr00vus]

Lemme ask you a question, would you want to be around a former NFL player who is bipolar and had multiple concussions while in the league? Throw in some steroid abuse just to make it fun.

Serious Q-Is the life expectancy of a normal man much greater than that of an NFL player?

Yes, 22 years greater if you believe the widely quoted estimate of an NFL player's life expectancy to be 55 years.Here's a fun arcticle, and another one, and this one in particular always makes me queasy:

..Jeff Novak stretched out on a trainer's table under a stadium in Charlotte, his fists clenched in pain and anger....Jeff Novak dreamed of following in his father's footsteps and becoming an NFL player. 'You gotta pay the price,' his father told him.

The offensive lineman had just played three quarters of an early August exhibition game against the Carolina Panthers, to the surprise of his teammates. Only one day before, Novak had woken up from a nap at the team hotel in a pool of blood that ran from hip to ankle. His right shin was leaking, again, after he had been cleared to play.

Just as he had been cleared to practice shortly after a hematoma first appeared two weeks earlier.

Just as he had been cleared to practice after the hematoma grew into a massive leg bruise.

Just as he had been cleared to practice after the team doctor noticed Novak could barely walk anymore and decided to cut open the bruise in order to squeeze the thick, coagulated blood out of a one-inch crevice -- like grape jelly from a condiment dispenser.

So, given the go-ahead, Jeff Novak pushed his 290 pounds all over an Ericsson Stadium field made muddy by a driving rain. And when his job was done that wet, sloppy evening, he picked the last of the grass blades from the hole in his bloated shin, shed a pair of bloody socks made pink by the rain, and once again turned to Dr. Stephen Lucie for answers.

Novak plopped his right leg on the trainer's table. With the efficiency of a chimney sweep, Lucie plunged a Q-tip into the soggy wound that had been left open, intentionally, to heal naturally. The raw, burning pain made Novak roar and plead for relief, a more gentle touch. A teammate or two gathered round, in morbid fascination.

Novak wanted to clock the doc. He really did. Especially when Lucie smiled in an amused way that, to Novak, suggested he ought to just toughen up and deal with it. Instead, thick-necked defensive tackle John Jurkovic, watching nearby, laid into Lucie with profanity and invective.

"You think this is funny?" Jurkovic barked at Lucie. "He's telling you this is something that's bothering him!"....

 

[Despyzer]

I loathe Belichick, but I'm not buying this story...

Sorry, but you can't 'force' somebody to play.

If Ted Johnson had such a problem with it, why didn't he take it up with the NFLPA when it occurred?

Exactly. This is good old fashioned baloney. Just ask Andy Reid or Bill Parcells if a coach can force a player to play.

 

[Despyzer]

Exactly. If the concussions were the issue, is'nt playing football, and being on the active roster for the first game in Pittsburght probably the oast place Ted Johnson should have wanted to be? Ted Johnson loved winning just as much as BB, that's why he did it.

Interesting. If the point of contention was being on the active roster for the first game, this probably has a lot more to do with Johnson's desire to get paid than his desire to win.

 

[Despyzer]

the medical staffs need to be independant, third-party, experts. We hear similar stories with pitchers in baseball... the team doctor says the arm is OK to go, the private doctor says no.

Private doctors are in no way the right answer. Have you ever been to a doctor for any kind of pain?"So what do you think, doc? Can I go back to work tomorrow?""I'm not going to tell you that you can.""But do you think I would be all right if I did?""If forced to advise you on going back to work or not, I would say no."Private doctors are afraid as hell of being considered liable for ANYTHING. There is no way any doctor would say "Sure, go back to your job where you crack skulls all day and have 300 lb. guys propel themselves at you like missiles. You have my blessing."

 

[TD Ryan]

Private doctors are afraid as hell of being considered liable for ANYTHING. There is no way any doctor would say "Sure, go back to your job where you crack skulls all day and have 300 lb. guys propel themselves at you like missiles. You have my blessing."

how is it that the team doctors, who clearly send unhealthy players onto the field, do NOT get sued but the "private" doctors do/will get sued?Do these team doctors currently have some sort of malpractice shield? and if so, why then couldn't these independant (or private) doctors work directly for the NFL instead of the teams and be covered by that same shield?I'm not looking to argue over the competency of the independant doctors... obviously they'll have to hire the best and brightest in sports medicine.I am saying that they need to remove the conflict of interest from those physicians that are diagnosing players' injuries.

 

[Two Deep]

NEW YORK -- Former New England Patriots linebacker Ted Johnson said coach Bill Belichick subjected him to hard hits in practice while he was recovering from a concussion -- against the advice of the team's top trainer.

Ted Johnson

Johnson

Johnson, who helped the Patriots win three Super Bowl titles before retiring two years ago, told The New York Times that a collision with another player during that 2002 practice led to another concussion. And, after sustaining additional concussions over the next three seasons, and suffers from depression and an addiction to amphetamines.

"There's something wrong with me," Johnson, 34, told the Times in a story posted on its Web site Thursday night. "There's something wrong with my brain. And I know when it started."

The Boston Globe, which is owned by the Times, posted a similar story on its Web site.

Johnson, who played 10 years in the NFL, said he began to deteriorate in August 2002 with a concussion during an exhibition game against the New York Giants. He sustained another concussion four days later after Belichick prodded him to participate in a full-contact practice, even though he was supposed to be avoiding hits, Johnson said.

The next month, with their relationship already strained, Johnson confronted Belichick about the practice after the coach asked him to meet in his office.

"I told him, 'You played God with my health. You knew I shouldn't have been cleared to play,'" Johnson told the Globe.

Belichick told the Globe he got no cue from Johnson in practice that day that he was hesitant about participating in the full-contact drill.

"If Ted felt so strongly that he didn't feel he was ready to practice with us, he should have told me," Belichick said.

The Patriots did not allow Jim Whalen, still their head trainer, to comment for this story, according to the Globe.

Patriots spokesman Stacey James told The Associated Press on Thursday night that the team was aware of the report but was not prepared to comment.

In a story last month, the Times reported that brain damage caused on the football field ultimately led to the suicide of former NFL defensive back Andre Waters last November, according to a forensic pathologist who studied Waters' brain tissue.

"We have been focused on the issue of concussions for years," NFL spokesman Greg Aiello told the AP. "It remains one of our prime concerns as we continue to do everything possible to protect the health of our players."

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is expected to answer questions about the issue at his annual state of the NFL news conference Friday.

Dr. Lee H. Schwamm, the neurologist at Massachusetts General Hospital who examined Johnson, wrote in a memo on Aug. 19, 2002, that Johnson sustained a second concussion in that practice, the Times reported.

Schwamm also wrote that, after speaking with Whalen, the trainer "was on the sidelines when he sustained the concussion during the game and assessed him frequently at the sideline" and that "he has kept Mr. Johnson out of contact since that time."

Johnson said he spoke with Belichick the next day about the incident, but only briefly, the Times said.

"He was vaguely acknowledging that he was aware of what happened," Johnson said, "and he wanted to just kind of let me know that he knew."

Johnson sat out the next two preseason games on the advice of his neurologist but played in the final one. Then, thinking he was still going to be left off the active roster for the season opener against Pittsburgh, he angrily left camp for two days before returning and meeting with Belichick.

"It's as clear as a bell, 'I had to see if you could play,'" Johnson recalled Belichick saying, according to the Times.

Moments later, Johnson said, Belichick admitted he had made a mistake by subjecting him to a full-contact drill.

"It was a real kind of admittance, but it was only him and I in the room," Johnson told the Times.

After returning to game action, the linebacker sustained more concussions of varying severity over the following three seasons, each of them exacerbating the next, according to his current neurologist, Dr. Robert Cantu.

Cantu told the Times he was certain that Johnson's problems "are related to his previous head injuries, as they are all rather classic postconcussion symptoms."

He added, "They are most likely permanent."

Cantu, the chief of neurosurgery and director of sports medicine at Emerson Hospital in Concord, Mass., also said Johnson shows signs of early Alzheimer's disease.

"The majority of those symptoms relentlessly progress over time," Cantu said. "It could be that at the time he's in his 50s, he could have severe Alzheimer's symptoms."

Johnson told the Globe he estimates he had at least six concussions in his last three seasons but reported only one because he already had a reputation as an injury-prone player and he didn't want to make it worse.

"Looking back, it was stupid not to tell anyone," Johnson said. "But I didn't know then that every time you have a concussion, you are four to six times more susceptible the next time. I had no idea the damage I was causing myself."

Gene Upshaw, executive director of the NFL Players Association, spoke in general terms about concussions at a news conference Thursday in Miami, where the Super Bowl will be played Sunday.

"If a coach or anyone else is saying, 'You don't have a concussion, you get back in there,' you don't have to go, and you shouldn't go," Upshaw said, not speaking about Johnson's case specifically. "You know how you feel. That's what we tried to do throughout the years, is take the coach out of the decision-making. It's the medical people that have to decide."

Upshaw told the AP that concussions are one of the issues the union is examining this year.

"We've seen a number of concussions in the NFL this year, and as a result of our studies, we've seen a change in the helmet. We're also studying the effects of that on concussions," Upshaw said.

Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?i...e=ESPNHeadlinesJeez, Belichek's image is taking a lot of punishment this year. Maybe he should hire the publicist T.O. fired.

1. If forgeting peoples names and missing appointments is an indication of concussions than I must have had a #### load and wasn't even aware.2. He can't remember peoples names or appointments but can remember every minute detail of conversations from three years ago.

I'm not saying he doesn't have a problem but quit #####ing, you chose to play.

 

[Bri]

I'm sure Ted Johnson felt pressured by some young buck replacing him as a starter if he didn't 'play hurt'.

NoAs a Pats fan, in a backhanded selfish way I wish he did. That player just isn't on the roster though.

 

[Bri]

Lemme ask you a question, would you want to be around a former NFL player who is bipolar and had multiple concussions while in the league? Throw in some steroid abuse just to make it fun.

Serious Q-Is the life expectancy of a normal man much greater than that of an NFL player?

I remember hearing or reading something a long time ago (~ 20 years or so) to the effect that life expectancy of lineman (O and D) was in the 50's.Would love to see an updated study, so don't at all take my statement as being factual.I believe that the factor larger than cumulative injuries (and at the time, reckless use of painkillers, etc) was the fact that larger bodies don't last as long. The average weight of lineman (O and D combined) is ~ 300 lbs. When a guy stops playing at age 30, weighs 300 lbs most will need to make some serious life altering changes in their day to day habits to last into their 80's

This and Groovus' post were along the lines with what I figured, thanks. It's like a different species or something. A different type subject the doctor is examining. I just don't think the average doc can assess them properly.

 

[Bri]

BTW IIRC Ted Johnson missed alot of time before this. I'd imagine often hurt players invite prodding. Us FF folks (pretend to)do it to guys that are often hurt.

 

[fatness]

Bri, brain injuries are brain injuries. There's not a lot different inside an NFL skull and a non-NFL skull. I'm not understadning the point you're trying to make about non-sports doctors not understanding brain injuries.

 

[TD Ryan]

BTW IIRC Ted Johnson missed alot of time before this. I'd imagine often hurt players invite prodding. Us FF folks (pretend to)do it to guys that are often hurt.

it's not about prodding; it's about MONEY.EVERYTHING we're discussing in this thread comes down to money:the player playing = moneythe team doctor OKing the player = moneythe coach OKing the player = moneythe already skull-bashed player considering a comeback after Seau goes down = moneyand with that in mind, perhaps my contention that the doctors need to be privatized or work directly for the NFL isn't a perfect solution either... but I do believe it would be better than working directly for the teams.

 

[Despyzer]

Do these team doctors currently have some sort of malpractice shield? and if so, why then couldn't these independant (or private) doctors work directly for the NFL instead of the teams and be covered by that same shield?

I really like this idea. Instead of team doctors, league doctors. Maybe one (or more) for each division in a location that is relatively central to each city in that division.NOW we're talking!

 

[Bri]

Bri, brain injuries are brain injuries. There's not a lot different inside an NFL skull and a non-NFL skull. I'm not understadning the point you're trying to make about non-sports doctors not understanding brain injuries.

off on a tangent thereI think it was Despyzer that pointed out that the typical doc would likely say not to play just to avoid being liable for it. just spun I guess

 

[fatness]

OK, thanks.

 

[fatness]

and with that in mind, perhaps my contention that the doctors need to be privatized or work directly for the NFL isn't a perfect solution either... but I do believe it would be better than working directly for the teams.

I agree, it would work better. Based on more knowledge of brain function that we had in the past, and based on recent examples of players suffering from brain injuries, it's fair to say that the current method (letting team trainers and doctors make calls on the safety of players playing with brain injuries) is inadequate and probably dangerous.

 

[PMENFAN]

I've thought about this topic very much. If I were an owner, I'd suggest the NFL conduct concussion lectures just like they do with lots of other thngs. When NFL rookies come in, they are subject to seminars like how to prevent being bamboozled out of their money by hooking up with shaky biz men. I'd think this topic is 100 times more pertinent.

I'd also like to see a player get a "medical suspension" or "moratorium" anytime he gets a concussion until this issue is put right by the league. Require each guy sits at least two games following a concussion.

The jax jaguars were damn near black market hacks when it came to medical issues under Tom "Soup Nazi" Coughlin. I watched a TV story where they performed a surgery on a guy on an unsterile training table in some office. If this were done by some hospital they'd have lost their license.

Give me all you want about how the NFL stands for "Not For Ladies" but this is an absolutely arcane, barbaric league that needs to be reeled in.

Maybe it's time for 100% guaranteed contracts in the NFL, to prevent guys from doing permanent damage to themselves in order to continue to collect a paycheck.

When you have all your former employees killing themselves and going bezerker, I think it's about time for something.Lemme ask you a question, would you want to be around a former NFL player who is bipolar and had multiple concussions while in the league? Throw in some steroid abuse just to make it fun.

Let's be fair here. It's not like only former NFL players are the only guys killing themselves and having early onset alzheimers. I af far from convinced. The medical proof is far from convincing at this point. I wouldn't even go as far as to say theres a sound theory around it. Mike Webster is another semi-famous case, who struggled after playing. But, if you hear his teammates talk about him. His bi-polar condition was likely there when he was playing, but at the time medicine didn't know what to do. We've had ONE suicide, that is theoretically traced to head trauma. What is the suicide rate of former NFL players compared to the general populace? What is is compared to college students? What is it compared to college students in Ithaca, NY. Ithacas gorges attract many suicide jumpers, for reasons unknown. Is it the curriculi at Cornell and Ithaca College? I'll tell you it's not Post Concussion Syndrome. I'm just not ready to jump to conclusions that post concussion syndrome leads to suicide. Memory loss? Probably, in some cases. But why? Should they do more to protect against it? Yes, and they try. But, rest assured, NOBODY IS FORCED TO PLAY FOOTBALL FOR A CAREER. Always remember that in this discussion. For many, even most, it's the culmination of a goal. It's not the big bad owners, or the big bad coaches forcing players out there. Players voluntarilly try out. They want to play.

Obviously concussions aren't good for you. Neither is working around plastics. We have far more people working in plastics factories. What about hydrocarbons in general? A far larger group, with far longer exposures, with far lesser returns. Not many people have the life goal of being an oil rig worker growing up, but many dream of playing football.

This isn't an NFL problem, but a societal problem. I think we need to stay focused ont he issue, not because they're NFL players, but because they're people. WE as a society tend to throw things, including people, aside when they're done being useful or develop problems. Our nursing homes and streets are full of these types of people, and the overwhelming majority are not former NFL players. In fact, in working at homeless shelters in Syracuse and Denver, I've never had one tell me tales of their glory days in the NFL. Many tell stories of their factory of office jobs, and families that they used to have.

 

[Bri]

Maybe it's time for 100% guaranteed contracts in the NFL, to prevent guys from doing permanent damage to themselves in order to continue to collect a paycheck.

Maybe but I can't imagine the owners allowing that. The reason above might be the only good reason, rest would all be negative not in their favor

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

Maybe this has been discussed before also.

Interesting timing on this, after LT and Ditka both call Belichick 'class-less' and 'an #####' (respectfully) and after his piss poor coaching (RUN THE BALL!) leads to the Patriots ouster in the playoffs.

And of course... leading up to Super Bowl week.

 

[Bri]

Maybe this has been discussed before also.Interesting timing on this, after LT and Ditka both call Belichick 'class-less' and 'an #####' (respectfully) and after his piss poor coaching (RUN THE BALL!) leads to the Patriots ouster in the playoffs.And of course... leading up to Super Bowl week.

LT will call anyone anything if he's heated. He might also tell ya he loved BB at another moment too. His emotions are sooo extreme.