Bengals defensive touchdown taken away? (1 Viewer)

[DMackDMack]

Yet another example of why IDP leagues are the way to go. Team defense sucks.

so for those of us that had Newman playing, will it stand?

Newman, Terence CIN CB

vs Packers Sun 1:00 p.m. ET

CIN 34, GBP 30 12.500 6 Tackles 0.450 9 Interception Return Yards 6.000 58 yd Defensive/Special Teams TD 5.000 1 Interceptions 1.500 1 Passes Defensed 1.000 1 Tackles for a Loss 26.450 Subtotal

Is that stat line for Newman taken from a Yahoo league? It would be really weird that they would credit him individually with a DST TD but also not credit the defense he is on with a DST TD... That must be from some other league, correct?

 

[Tango]

An offensive fumble recovery is recovering a fumble that does not change possession. Your teammate fumbled it.

A defensive fumble recover is recovering a fumble which changes possession. The opponent fumbled it.

Those uses of "offense" and "defense" aren't the same meaning as the fantasy roster positions.

A fantasy Team Defense (non ST) is the unit who did not put the ball into play with a snap or kick. Just like a fantasy RB stays a fantasy RB whether he lines up at QB or WR in the course of a play, the Team Defense/ST stays their position for the play. While every fantasy league does not have to do it that way, that's what 99% of us mean by the term.

A Team Defense can get a defensive fumble recovery from an opponent. And they can get an offensive fumble recovery if they got possession, fumbled it, and recover it themselves. Because their fantasy roster position is Team Defense, it isn't their NFL statistical designation.

That is where Yahoo is going wrong. They are mixing the terms because they are the same words, but represent different things. They are correct it is an offensive fumble recovery. They are wrong when they say it wasn't the fantasy roster position Team Defense who got the offensive fumble recovery.

I'd say most of us get this wrong. Trying to play out every scenario of how a TD can be scored in the rules is impossible, so the best answer is to simplify:

The NFL will use ONLY ONE of the following words in EVERY touchdown:

RUN

PASS

RETURN

RECOVERY

Rule 1

If it is a return or recovery in any way shape or fashion, then it goes to the DT and to the individual player(s) who scored it

Rule 2

If it is a run or a pass it goes to the player(s) only

If you like having peace in your league with 0% chance of wars breaking out among owners, then please follow this path...

Example: If there's a fake FG and a pass is thrown for a score, there are no points awarded to the DT/ST. It was a PASS and DT/ST get points only on RETURNS or RECOVERIES.

I mostly agree, with one exception. The Offensive Fumble Recovery for Touchdown (OFT). Those are marked as RECOVERY but should not be DST scores, it should go to the individual player who recovered. (Depending on your league rules of course). This just happened last year with Antonio Brown.

True...though once the door to exceptions is opened, it's hard to get it shut.

 

[Joe Summer]

Regardless of how Yahoo and/or the NFL ultimately scores this play, in fantasy football if your defense/special teams unit was on the field and recovered the fumble and ultimately scored then the D/ST should get credit for the fumble and TD. Unless the offense and defense rotated in mid play the spirit of most league's rules would expect this to be a defensive score.

Many years ago, this is how we decided to score such a play. The Defensive Unit scored the TD.

Yahoo's explanation: "Once possession changes following an interception or fumble, the defensive team is considered to be on offense for the purposes of NFL statistical record-keeping."

If you follow that logic, how is any Defensive return credited to the Defense?

good pointother than recovering a fumble in the end zone, on all other plays they'd turn into the offense prior to the score

What they are saying is that if possession changes AFTER an interception or fumble, which is the case here. Had Cincinnati scored a TD without fumbling it the first time, it is a defensive score. Since they fumbled it, GB regained possession, and then fumbled it again, it wasn't.Take this one step further:

Lets say that somehow, someway, the ball was fumbled 22 times on that play, and each and every player both recovered a fumble, and them fumbled it away again. Would you want each IDP player to get a "fumble recovery"?

Just one problem: possession DID NOT CHANGE after the fumble. Green Bay never regained possession on that play.And to answer your second question: if there were 22 fumbles and 22 changes of possession, YES OF COURSE I would want each IDP to get credit for a "fumble recovery" (along with a corresponding "fumble lost", of course).

 

[KellysHeroes]

Yet another example of why IDP leagues are the way to go. Team defense sucks.

so for those of us that had Newman playing, will it stand?

Newman, Terence CIN CB

vs Packers Sun 1:00 p.m. ET

CIN 34, GBP 30 12.500 6 Tackles 0.450 9 Interception Return Yards 6.000 58 yd Defensive/Special Teams TD 5.000 1 Interceptions 1.500 1 Passes Defensed 1.000 1 Tackles for a Loss 26.450 Subtotal

Is that stat line for Newman taken from a Yahoo league? It would be really weird that they would credit him individually with a DST TD but also not credit the defense he is on with a DST TD... That must be from some other league, correct?

MFL

 

[B-Deep]

Regardless of how Yahoo and/or the NFL ultimately scores this play, in fantasy football if your defense/special teams unit was on the field and recovered the fumble and ultimately scored then the D/ST should get credit for the fumble and TD. Unless the offense and defense rotated in mid play the spirit of most league's rules would expect this to be a defensive score.

Many years ago, this is how we decided to score such a play. The Defensive Unit scored the TD.

Yahoo's explanation: "Once possession changes following an interception or fumble, the defensive team is considered to be on offense for the purposes of NFL statistical record-keeping."

If you follow that logic, how is any Defensive return credited to the Defense?

good point

other than recovering a fumble in the end zone, on all other plays they'd turn into the offense prior to the score

What they are saying is that if possession changes AFTER an interception or fumble, which is the case here. Had Cincinnati scored a TD without fumbling it the first time, it is a defensive score. Since they fumbled it, GB regained possession, and then fumbled it again, it wasn't.

Take this one step further:

Lets say that somehow, someway, the ball was fumbled 22 times on that play, and each and every player both recovered a fumble, and them fumbled it away again. Would you want each IDP player to get a "fumble recovery"?

so

Cincinnati getting the ball does not put them on offense

Cincinnati LOSING the ball puts them on offense

in your scenario, sure, they'd each get a fumble recovery and a fumble lost which in most leagues would cancel

 

[da_budman]

We went back and forth on change of possessions after a fumble/ re-change of possessions a while back ( I realize that didnt happen here but the same concept holds) and came down to the common sense decision that: If the team on the field that scores is the offensive team then its an offensive TD If the team on the field is the defensive team then they score the TDs . Magical defenses become offense rulings are just symantics and are not rooted in reality. It doesnt need to be this tough. PS Rtsports ruled it team D/special teams TD yesterday....and its the same today.

 

[Tango]

We went back and forth on change of possessions after a fumble/ re-change of possessions a while back ( I realize that didnt happen here but the same concept holds) and came down to the common sense decision that: If the team on the field that scores is the offensive team then its an offensive TD If the team on the field is the defensive team then they score the TDs . Magical defenses become offense rulings are just symantics and are not rooted in reality. It doesnt need to be this tough. PS Rtsports ruled it team D/special teams TD yesterday....and its the same today.

What if the full offense lines up to go for it on a 4th down and instead the FB quick punts it. The defense picks up the punted ball and attempts to return it, then fumbles, then recovered by the offense...say the QB...and he runs it in for the TD. Is there a specific way the above rule handles that?

 

[B-Deep]

We went back and forth on change of possessions after a fumble/ re-change of possessions a while back ( I realize that didnt happen here but the same concept holds) and came down to the common sense decision that: If the team on the field that scores is the offensive team then its an offensive TD If the team on the field is the defensive team then they score the TDs . Magical defenses become offense rulings are just symantics and are not rooted in reality. It doesnt need to be this tough. PS Rtsports ruled it team D/special teams TD yesterday....and its the same today.

What if the full offense lines up to go for it on a 4th down and instead the FB quick punts it. The defense picks up the punted ball and attempts to return it, then fumbles, then recovered by the offense...say the QB...and he runs it in for the TD. Is there a specific way the above rule handles that?

-43 for the defense, +9 for the QB, everyone gets a cheeseburger

 

[Joe Summer]

We went back and forth on change of possessions after a fumble/ re-change of possessions a while back ( I realize that didnt happen here but the same concept holds) and came down to the common sense decision that: If the team on the field that scores is the offensive team then its an offensive TD If the team on the field is the defensive team then they score the TDs . Magical defenses become offense rulings are just symantics and are not rooted in reality. It doesnt need to be this tough. PS Rtsports ruled it team D/special teams TD yesterday....and its the same today.

What if the full offense lines up to go for it on a 4th down and instead the FB quick punts it. The defense picks up the punted ball and attempts to return it, then fumbles, then recovered by the offense...say the QB...and he runs it in for the TD. Is there a specific way the above rule handles that?

The teams on the field both became "Special Teams" as soon as the kicked ball crossed the line of scrimmage. The QB in that scenario would be no different from a RB or WR who scored a TD during kick return coverage.

 

[drake_ovo]

how come espn has not updated it yet?

i need those 6 points taken away, i am up against peyton, knowshon, julius and the denver kicker tonight...lol

any points taken away will help

 

[Johnny Blood]

We went back and forth on change of possessions after a fumble/ re-change of possessions a while back ( I realize that didnt happen here but the same concept holds) and came down to the common sense decision that: If the team on the field that scores is the offensive team then its an offensive TD If the team on the field is the defensive team then they score the TDs . Magical defenses become offense rulings are just symantics and are not rooted in reality. It doesnt need to be this tough. PS Rtsports ruled it team D/special teams TD yesterday....and its the same today.

What if the full offense lines up to go for it on a 4th down and instead the FB quick punts it. The defense picks up the punted ball and attempts to return it, then fumbles, then recovered by the offense...say the QB...and he runs it in for the TD. Is there a specific way the above rule handles that?

"All and only plays with a kick or punt are special teams plays. Other than that, the team that snapped the ball is offense for the entire play and the other team is defense for the entire play."

^ That plus taking a stand on whether individual players do or do not get fumble recovery TDs covers 99.9% of all this stuff.

 

[Griffindor]

Update from Yahoo:

"We are currently reviewing the scoring for DB Terrence Newman's touchdown for the Bengals game on 9/22. More information to come. We appreciate your patience"

 

[Soulfly3]

they gave CIN def the 6pts back

my game is now a tie. oof

ETA: did they say WHY they changed it, after claiming earlier they were so definite why it wasnt

 

[Macdaddy_2004]

lol yeah yahoo has reversed it - now Cincy has the def td again

 

[Griffindor]

Here's the note from Yahoo. They don't explain why they changed it here:

• The Bengals DEF/ST has been credited with a defensive TD for the Terence Newman return touchdown for the week 3 Packers-Bengals game. In addition, if your league uses individual defensive players and awards points for turnover return yards, 58 turnover return yards will be added for Terence Newman. This will be reflected the morning of 9/24 after the overnight update.

 

[Dickies]

Ouch, this just caused me to lose my game this week.

 

[Mr.Pack]

I can't imagine that many teams played the Cincy defense against the Pack, but definitely important if you rolled the dice there.

I played them in a MFL league. In MFL it is still being credited as a TD.

MFL lets you set things up however you want. Yahoo is correct that the TD was an "offensive fumble recovery TD". I think that is pretty much indisputable. It's also fairly irrelevant to whether fantasy leagues want a team D to get credit when a player who was on defense at the snap recovers for a TD a fumble by a teammate.

MFL will let you set things up to get points for offensive fumble recovery TD. Or it will let you set it up so any TD scored by the players who started the snap on defense is scored. If you're using Team D, best to use the latter I'd imagine since it rolls everything together regardless of the exact scoring category for the TD. Otherwise you have to make sure you include all the different options, same as you have to for individual players.

This stuff really should be basic functionality for a fantasy football hosting site by now.

This is impossible.

If that was the case, then the Cinn Def wouldn't have gotten a TD had the player who recovered not fumbled and just ran it in, because what you are saying that once the ball is recovered they are now on Offense. Not sure how people claim this to be the case.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

It was a defensive touchdown by any standard of common sense

 

[QuizGuy66]

FWIW this same exact question applies to the FBG subscriber contest - it looks like the TD was not counted for Cincy's D/ST on there.

-QG

 

[Joe Summer]

FWIW this same exact question applies to the FBG subscriber contest - it looks like the TD was not counted for Cincy's D/ST on there.

-QG

Team Defense/Special Teams

1 point - Every sack

2 points - Every team takeaway (interception or fumble recovery)***

6 points - Every TD (via interception return, fumble return, punt or kickoff return, blocked FG return, missed FG return, blocked punt return)***

5 points - Every safety

12 points - Every shutout **

8 points - Allowing between 1- 6 points **

5 points - Allowing between 7 - 10 points **

*** A double-turnover is when the Offense turns the ball over to the opposing Defense, which subsequently turns the ball over back to the Offense. In this case, neither the Offense's ball recovery nor any subsequent TD scoring on that particular play are scored as Defensive/Special Team scoring for that team. Defensive team fantasy points for touchdowns, fumble recoveries and interceptions are ONLY scored when the defensive unit is on the field.

http://www.myffpc.com/footballguys-players-championship/rules.html

Based on that description, how could they possibly justify NOT counting Cincy's touchdown?

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

plz change title to bengals defense had their taken away td taken away

 

[GregR]

I can't imagine that many teams played the Cincy defense against the Pack, but definitely important if you rolled the dice there.

I played them in a MFL league. In MFL it is still being credited as a TD.

MFL lets you set things up however you want. Yahoo is correct that the TD was an "offensive fumble recovery TD". I think that is pretty much indisputable. It's also fairly irrelevant to whether fantasy leagues want a team D to get credit when a player who was on defense at the snap recovers for a TD a fumble by a teammate.

MFL will let you set things up to get points for offensive fumble recovery TD. Or it will let you set it up so any TD scored by the players who started the snap on defense is scored. If you're using Team D, best to use the latter I'd imagine since it rolls everything together regardless of the exact scoring category for the TD. Otherwise you have to make sure you include all the different options, same as you have to for individual players.

This stuff really should be basic functionality for a fantasy football hosting site by now.

This is impossible.

If that was the case, then the Cinn Def wouldn't have gotten a TD had the player who recovered not fumbled and just ran it in, because what you are saying that once the ball is recovered they are now on Offense. Not sure how people claim this to be the case.

The play was an offensive fumble recovery TD. Saying it wasn't is as baseless as saying it wasn't a touchdown. Since the point of the post was missed though let me say it again and highlight it.

The use of the word "offensive" in this stat name has nothing to do with how we define the fantasy roster position "Team Defense". The problem is Yahoo is changing the fantasy roster designation midplay. A fantasy roster RB doesn't turn into a QB midplay because he throws a pass. Once a unit on a play has achieved the designation of being a Team D (other team snapped/kicked/attempted to kick the ball), that designation doesn't change midplay either.

The problem isn't in classifying the stat. Yahoo is correct there. It is an offensive fumble recovery TD. The problem is they (and even you in your post) saying a Team D cannot accumulate that stat just because it contains the word "offensive" in it. That use of the term doesn't change the fantasy roster designation.

 

[msudaisy26]

We went back and forth on change of possessions after a fumble/ re-change of possessions a while back ( I realize that didnt happen here but the same concept holds) and came down to the common sense decision that: If the team on the field that scores is the offensive team then its an offensive TD If the team on the field is the defensive team then they score the TDs . Magical defenses become offense rulings are just symantics and are not rooted in reality. It doesnt need to be this tough. PS Rtsports ruled it team D/special teams TD yesterday....and its the same today.

What if the full offense lines up to go for it on a 4th down and instead the FB quick punts it. The defense picks up the punted ball and attempts to return it, then fumbles, then recovered by the offense...say the QB...and he runs it in for the TD. Is there a specific way the above rule handles that?

"All and only plays with a kick or punt are special teams plays. Other than that, the team that snapped the ball is offense for the entire play and the other team is defense for the entire play."^ That plus taking a stand on whether individual players do or do not get fumble recovery TDs covers 99.9% of all this stuff.

I like this rule and it would clear up any grey area. I actually lost a game a few years ago when the Saints won the Super Bowl. Brees threw a interception against Washington and then Meachem took the ball from the defender and scored a touchdown and I didn't get for the touchdown that Meachem scored because possession changed. Stupid rule

 

[KellysHeroes]

doesn't NFL.com have leagues? How did they score it?

 

[Mr.Pack]

I can't imagine that many teams played the Cincy defense against the Pack, but definitely important if you rolled the dice there.

I played them in a MFL league. In MFL it is still being credited as a TD.

MFL lets you set things up however you want. Yahoo is correct that the TD was an "offensive fumble recovery TD". I think that is pretty much indisputable. It's also fairly irrelevant to whether fantasy leagues want a team D to get credit when a player who was on defense at the snap recovers for a TD a fumble by a teammate.

MFL will let you set things up to get points for offensive fumble recovery TD. Or it will let you set it up so any TD scored by the players who started the snap on defense is scored. If you're using Team D, best to use the latter I'd imagine since it rolls everything together regardless of the exact scoring category for the TD. Otherwise you have to make sure you include all the different options, same as you have to for individual players.

This stuff really should be basic functionality for a fantasy football hosting site by now.

This is impossible.

If that was the case, then the Cinn Def wouldn't have gotten a TD had the player who recovered not fumbled and just ran it in, because what you are saying that once the ball is recovered they are now on Offense. Not sure how people claim this to be the case.

The play was an offensive fumble recovery TD. Saying it wasn't is as baseless as saying it wasn't a touchdown. Since the point of the post was missed though let me say it again and highlight it.

The use of the word "offensive" in this stat name has nothing to do with how we define the fantasy roster position "Team Defense". The problem is Yahoo is changing the fantasy roster designation midplay. A fantasy roster RB doesn't turn into a QB midplay because he throws a pass. Once a unit on a play has achieved the designation of being a Team D (other team snapped/kicked/attempted to kick the ball), that designation doesn't change midplay either.

The problem isn't in classifying the stat. Yahoo is correct there. It is an offensive fumble recovery TD. The problem is they (and even you in your post) saying a Team D cannot accumulate that stat just because it contains the word "offensive" in it. That use of the term doesn't change the fantasy roster designation.

Throw Fantasy Football out of the equation. Tell me how a Defensive team becomes an Offensive team midplay without the play being called dead and the ball still live.

It just can't happen.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Look at it this way, you can't say the defense scores on an interception return for a TD, but if he fumbles say the offense fumbled the ball. It's an inconsistency.

What is the function of the team/player at the snap?

 

[Joe Summer]

1. If an offensive player scores after recovering his own fumble, it's still an offensive TD.

2. If an offensive player scores after recovering a teammate's fumble, it's still an offensive TD.

Agreed?

3. If a defensive player scores after recovering his own fumble, it's still a defensive TD

Everyone still in agreement? Good.

4. If a defensive player scores after recovering a teammate's fumble, it's __________________

Using the logic of the previous 3 examples, I don't think there's any other answer besides "it's still a defensive TD".

 

[Sarnoff]

Yahoo has re-re-reversed the call and is counting it as a defensive TD. However, the team DST only gets credit for 1 fumble recovery (the initial turnover of possession), not the subsequent recovery of the Bengals teammate's fumble.

 

[Joe Summer]

Yahoo has re-re-reversed the call and is counting it as a defensive TD. However, the team DST only gets credit for 1 fumble recovery (the initial turnover of possession), not the subsequent recovery of the Bengals teammate's fumble.

If they had given the Bengals credit for 2 fumble recoveries, then they should have also given the Bengals credit for 1 fumble lost.

 

[TheLurkerBelow]

1. If an offensive player scores after recovering his own fumble, it's still an offensive TD.

2. If an offensive player scores after recovering a teammate's fumble, it's still an offensive TD.

Agreed?

3. If a defensive player scores after recovering his own fumble, it's still a defensive TD

Everyone still in agreement? Good.

4. If a defensive player scores after recovering a teammate's fumble, it's __________________

Using the logic of the previous 3 examples, I don't think there's any other answer besides "it's still a defensive TD".

Great post! As long as team possession hasn't changed during the play it should be this straightforward.

 

[TheLurkerBelow]

Yahoo has re-re-reversed the call and is counting it as a defensive TD. However, the team DST only gets credit for 1 fumble recovery (the initial turnover of possession), not the subsequent recovery of the Bengals teammate's fumble.

This is because in fantasy scoring we generally only give fumble recovery points when the ball changes possession between teams on a recovery.

 

[GregR]

1. If an offensive player scores after recovering his own fumble, it's still an offensive TD.

2. If an offensive player scores after recovering a teammate's fumble, it's still an offensive TD.

Agreed?

3. If a defensive player scores after recovering his own fumble, it's still a defensive TD

Everyone still in agreement? Good.

4. If a defensive player scores after recovering a teammate's fumble, it's __________________

Using the logic of the previous 3 examples, I don't think there's any other answer besides "it's still a defensive TD".

Again, you must make the distinction between the NFL's terminology and our fantasy roster terminology, where the same words "offense" and "defense" are used but do not necessarily equate.

In the official NFL rule book, the team in possession of the ball is considered to the offense.

Preface (3rd paragraph)

At many places in the text there are approved rulings which serve to supplement an illustrate the basic language of the rules. Each is headed by an abbreviation, followed by a number (e.g. "A.R. 3.20"). The letter "A" in an approved ruling indicatest he team that puts the ball in play and it's opponents are designated by the letter "B". Whenever a team is in possession of the ball it is the offense, and at such time its opponent is the defense...

One of the rules on loose balls:

Rule 3, Sect 2, Article 3: Loose Ball

A Loose Ball is a live ball that is not in player possession, i.e. any kick, pass or fumble. A loose ball that has not yet struck the ground is in Flight. A loose ball (either during or after flight) is considered in possession of team (offense) whose player kicked, passed or fumbled. It ends when a player secures possession or whent he down ends if that is before such possession. (For exception, see 9-5-1--Exc 3.)

By the NFL's rule terminology, if a Bengals player on defense at the snap recovers the ball, his team goes on offense. If he fumbles and a teammate recovers it, the player last in possession was his teammate so it is an offensive fumble recovery.

But again, the generally accepted meaning for a fantasy Team D is not "the team the NFL rules consider to be on offense at the exact moment during the play". It's more general, the unit who did not snap the ball or put it in play with a kick.

 

[KellysHeroes]

Look at it this way, you can't say the defense scores on an interception return for a TD, but if he fumbles say the offense fumbled the ball. It's an inconsistency.

What is the function of the team/player at the snap?

Play starts - GB is the Offense / Cin is Defense

Turnover #1 - GB is the Offense / Cin is Defense

GB offense cause fumble, making GB become defense and Cin become offense

Cin "offense" recovers its own fumble and scores TD

got it? good

 

[Joe Summer]

1. If an offensive player scores after recovering his own fumble, it's still an offensive TD.

2. If an offensive player scores after recovering a teammate's fumble, it's still an offensive TD.

Agreed?

3. If a defensive player scores after recovering his own fumble, it's still a defensive TD

Everyone still in agreement? Good.

4. If a defensive player scores after recovering a teammate's fumble, it's __________________

Using the logic of the previous 3 examples, I don't think there's any other answer besides "it's still a defensive TD".

Again, you must make the distinction between the NFL's terminology and our fantasy roster terminology, where the same words "offense" and "defense" are used but do not necessarily equate.

In the official NFL rule book, the team in possession of the ball is considered to the offense.

Preface (3rd paragraph)

At many places in the text there are approved rulings which serve to supplement an illustrate the basic language of the rules. Each is headed by an abbreviation, followed by a number (e.g. "A.R. 3.20"). The letter "A" in an approved ruling indicatest he team that puts the ball in play and it's opponents are designated by the letter "B". Whenever a team is in possession of the ball it is the offense, and at such time its opponent is the defense...

One of the rules on loose balls:

Rule 3, Sect 2, Article 3: Loose Ball

A Loose Ball is a live ball that is not in player possession, i.e. any kick, pass or fumble. A loose ball that has not yet struck the ground is in Flight. A loose ball (either during or after flight) is considered in possession of team (offense) whose player kicked, passed or fumbled. It ends when a player secures possession or whent he down ends if that is before such possession. (For exception, see 9-5-1--Exc 3.)

By the NFL's rule terminology, if a Bengals player on defense at the snap recovers the ball, his team goes on offense. If he fumbles and a teammate recovers it, the player last in possession was his teammate so it is an offensive fumble recovery.

But again, the generally accepted meaning for a fantasy Team D is not "the team the NFL rules consider to be on offense at the exact moment during the play". It's more general, the unit who did not snap the ball or put it in play with a kick.

NFL statistic-keeping is not in line with the verbiage of the NFL rulebook. You said as much yourself in this earlier thread.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Look at it this way, you can't say the defense scores on an interception return for a TD, but if he fumbles say the offense fumbled the ball. It's an inconsistency.

What is the function of the team/player at the snap?

Play starts - GB is the Offense / Cin is Defense

Turnover #1 - GB is the Offense / Cin is Defense

GB offense cause fumble, making GB become defense and Cin become offense

Cin "offense" recovers its own fumble and scores TD

got it? good

How did GB offense become defense when they caused the fumble. They were on offense before the fumble, but defense after they caused the fumble?

The disconnect between reality and fantasy is evident here because the NFL treats the team with possession of the ball as the "offensive" team - so that the shift occurs on the first turnover - Cincinnati becomes the "offense". Then when Cincinnati fumbles, it is an "offensive" fumble, recovered by the "offense".

Unfortunately, in fantasy, the expectation for almost all players, is that the team that did not snap the ball is the defense for the entire play. WHen you draft a team defense, you expect to get all points scored by that unit.

So, the spirit of the rules suggests the defense should get credit for the TD, on a multi-fumble play. If you insist that the second fumble is an offensive fumble and recovery, then by extension you would support a rule where no defense could score a TD, because, by definition, the team in possession of the ball is on offense at all times.

 

[GregR]

1. If an offensive player scores after recovering his own fumble, it's still an offensive TD.

2. If an offensive player scores after recovering a teammate's fumble, it's still an offensive TD.

Agreed?

3. If a defensive player scores after recovering his own fumble, it's still a defensive TD

Everyone still in agreement? Good.

4. If a defensive player scores after recovering a teammate's fumble, it's __________________

Using the logic of the previous 3 examples, I don't think there's any other answer besides "it's still a defensive TD".

Again, you must make the distinction between the NFL's terminology and our fantasy roster terminology, where the same words "offense" and "defense" are used but do not necessarily equate.

In the official NFL rule book, the team in possession of the ball is considered to the offense.

Preface (3rd paragraph)

At many places in the text there are approved rulings which serve to supplement an illustrate the basic language of the rules. Each is headed by an abbreviation, followed by a number (e.g. "A.R. 3.20"). The letter "A" in an approved ruling indicatest he team that puts the ball in play and it's opponents are designated by the letter "B". Whenever a team is in possession of the ball it is the offense, and at such time its opponent is the defense...

One of the rules on loose balls:

Rule 3, Sect 2, Article 3: Loose Ball

A Loose Ball is a live ball that is not in player possession, i.e. any kick, pass or fumble. A loose ball that has not yet struck the ground is in Flight. A loose ball (either during or after flight) is considered in possession of team (offense) whose player kicked, passed or fumbled. It ends when a player secures possession or whent he down ends if that is before such possession. (For exception, see 9-5-1--Exc 3.)

By the NFL's rule terminology, if a Bengals player on defense at the snap recovers the ball, his team goes on offense. If he fumbles and a teammate recovers it, the player last in possession was his teammate so it is an offensive fumble recovery.

But again, the generally accepted meaning for a fantasy Team D is not "the team the NFL rules consider to be on offense at the exact moment during the play". It's more general, the unit who did not snap the ball or put it in play with a kick.

NFL statistic-keeping is not in line with the verbiage of the NFL rulebook. You said as much yourself in this earlier thread.

In that case they clearly weren't.

In the case of offensive fumble recovery TD it so happens they are.

This line of discussion is pretty pointless. The definition of a fantasy Team D roster position does not hinge on the definition of offense or defense in the NFL rule book, nor does it hinge on the use of those words in the name of statistics. So what does it matter if those two are always consistent, or sometimes consistent?

If the NFL starts calling touchdown passes by the name "QB touchdown pass" in the rulebook and/or in the stats, we wouldn't suddenly stop awarding fantasy points to RBs who they throw a TD pass and it shows up in that stat category. Nor would we say the RB is no longer a RB but is now a fantasy QB during that play.

Why not? Because our definition of the fantasy positions of RB and QB is not always the same as the NFL definition. Nor is our definition of a Team D the same as the NFL rulebook's. Theirs changes with possession. Ours doesn't.

 

[spodog]

Here's the note from Yahoo. They don't explain why they changed it here:

• The Bengals DEF/ST has been credited with a defensive TD for the Terence Newman return touchdown for the week 3 Packers-Bengals game. In addition, if your league uses individual defensive players and awards points for turnover return yards, 58 turnover return yards will be added for Terence Newman. This will be reflected the morning of 9/24 after the overnight update.

So the Yahoo! service is similar to a fantasy league that doesn't establish rules before the season, they just make arbitray decisions on the fly as each season progresses . . . ?

 

[Phenix]

Here's the note from Yahoo. They don't explain why they changed it here:

• The Bengals DEF/ST has been credited with a defensive TD for the Terence Newman return touchdown for the week 3 Packers-Bengals game. In addition, if your league uses individual defensive players and awards points for turnover return yards, 58 turnover return yards will be added for Terence Newman. This will be reflected the morning of 9/24 after the overnight update.

So the Yahoo! service is similar to a fantasy league that doesn't establish rules before the season, they just make arbitray decisions on the fly as each season progresses . . . ?

Yet they didn't give Edelman his offensive recovery last year. LOL Yahoo is pathetic they are lucky its a free service.