Bettis' book full of surprises (1 Viewer)

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Well it appears the curse has now reversed. A big part of the curse was former players and coaches failing to win anything in Cleveland, and then winning somewhere else. But now that's Pittsburgh's problem. Bill Cowher never win the ring in Pittsburgh, and now he may go somewhere and do it. And it would be fitting for it to happen in Cleveland.

WTF???

Guess this BGP person slept through 2005. Or he's been drinking more Gentleman Jack than is good for a person to imbibe before going on a message board and displaying ignorance of the last 2 years. :( "Bill Cowher never win the ring" definitely sounds like a guy with a few too many under his wings.

He's a troll playing semantics games. "The Steelers didn't WIN. The Refs HANDED it to them."

 

[Godsbrother]

So, before last January, would you have called Peyton Manning a choker since he had NEVER brought his team from behind to win a game in the playoffs until the comeback win over the Patriots in the AFC title game? And I agree with you in spirit about Stewart. He was definitely not a QB who was going to put a team on his back and overcome a deficit at the end (although, interestingly, many Steelers fans have often said he would have in the loss to the Broncos in '97, had Elway not completed that pass to Sharpe), but I just do not think it is fair to call him a choker in a game where two other major parts of the team sucked and were much greater contributers to the deficit that the team was faced with in the waning minutes of the game. It is like saying, "Okay, Kordell, special teams and the running game have let you down all day, but we are only down by 7, so either win the game for us or the loss is your fault?" Not really fair, is it?

For the record I didn't call Stewart a choker. What I said was Stewart was not an effective QB when he was behind. While it is true the running game and Special teams were horrible that day and were responsible for the deficit it is also true the Steelers were only behind 4 points going into the 4th quarter. There was still plenty of time to mount a drive and win the game. But I do not blame the loss of Stewart and that was only one game anyway. The problems with Kordell over his career is he just wasn't a good enough passer and could not read defenses well enough to bring you back when you were behind. In 1997 he was able to get away with it because of his running ability. His problems began a year later when he tried to be a pocket passer -- it just wasn't his game.

 

[salmonstud]

Tex Goldstein....very nice. I might change my current alias of Richard Smallwood to that.

 

[Da Guru]

Did Bettis thank Big Ben for saving him from being the biggest goat in playoff history by tackling the Colt DB who recovered his fumble?

 

[CrossEyed]

Did Bettis thank Big Ben for saving him from being the biggest goat in playoff history by tackling the Colt DB who recovered his fumble?

We were just talking about this. Had Ben not made that tackle, Bettis would be Pittsburgh's Bill Buckner.

 

[east2west]

It doesn't bother me -- mainly just Bettis' opinions to which he is certainly entitled to.The main thing I disagree with him is about Kordell though. Kordell was given every opportunity to be the Steelers franchise QB but was way too inconsistent for the job. The fact that he flopped in Chicago and was listed 3rd on the depth chart in Baltimore behind Kyle Boller and Anthony Wright tells you all you need to know about Kordell as a QB.Kordell Stewart was a great athlete and could have been a very good WR. As a QB he did show flashes at times but he was never going to be a great QB. You can't pin that on Cowher.

I have to agree fully here. I'm sure I seen every Steelers reg season game that KS played. If anything I'd say Cowher gave the guy way too many chances. In fact it seamed at one point late in Kordell's stint with the Steelers, Cowher was the only guy who wanted Kordell to keep playing.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

The special teams were the worst facet of the team that day for sure, but to say Kordell didn't choke with the game on the line is being too kind. It speaks to my point that when team knew he had to pass, he was unable to find seams in the defense and more often than not, would commit a bad turnover (or two) that cost the Steelers a shot at the game.

So, before last January, would you have called Peyton Manning a choker since he had NEVER brought his team from behind to win a game in the playoffs until the comeback win over the Patriots in the AFC title game? And I agree with you in spirit about Stewart. He was definitely not a QB who was going to put a team on his back and overcome a deficit at the end (although, interestingly, many Steelers fans have often said he would have in the loss to the Broncos in '97, had Elway not completed that pass to Sharpe), but I just do not think it is fair to call him a choker in a game where two other major parts of the team sucked and were much greater contributers to the deficit that the team was faced with in the waning minutes of the game. It is like saying, "Okay, Kordell, special teams and the running game have let you down all day, but we are only down by 7, so either win the game for us or the loss is your fault?" Not really fair, is it?

If Manning had, time and time again, thrown terrible interceptions or fumbled the ball away in opponents' territory when given a chance to win the game, then yes, I would have. In fact, many people (not me) called him a choker until he won the Super Bowl last year.And I'm not saying the loss was entirely his fault. It was a team loss. However, the point I was originally making is that Kordell was not a QB who could win big games for you, and he would fold late in games when the pressure was on. He was fine when the Steelers got ahead and could run the ball a lot - then, when they threw against a softened defense and he had open receivers, he could move the team. When they got behind, however, he usually stunk. If teams were able to sit back and wait on the deep ball, it was over. Rather than taking what the defense was giving him and moving the team down the field, Stewart would invariably try to take too much too soon and turn the ball over. He did it time and time again in big games. While the special teams were primarily what lost that game, Kordell turning it over 4 times didn't help matters (he also fumbled a second time, which Pittsburgh recovered.) While the ST and running game also failed, if you're a QB and you throw 3 picks and fumble twice in a conference title game, you have to take some of that heat, I'm sorry. As part of pattern of big-game flops, it pretty much paints a picture of a choker.Look at the aggregate stats in the 3 biggest games of his career ('97 and '01 AFCC and the '96 divisional loss to NE, he only played QB sporadically that season, but played a good portion of that game under center)42-88 (47.7%) 456 yards, 1 TD 6 INT, 3 fumbles (2 lost)He did rush for 104 yards and a TD in the 3 games, but 2 TDs and 8 turnovers? That's not a big-game QB to me. And if you want to make the case that they wouldn't have been playing in those games at all had Kordell not led them to victory - here are his aggregate stats in those playoffs in 2 penultimate games :26-53 (49%) 286 yards, 1 TD 2 INTNot exactly stellar either.Synopsis : No, it's not fair to dump the whole 2001 AFCC loss on Stewart, but it is fair to say that when he had chances late to tie the game, he failed spectacularly. For his career, he was not just a mediocre but a downright lousy QB in big games. That's why I call him a choker.. 4 TDs (combined rush/rec) and 10 turnovers in 5 playoff games as a QB = teh suck.

 

[Ghost Rider]

So, before last January, would you have called Peyton Manning a choker since he had NEVER brought his team from behind to win a game in the playoffs until the comeback win over the Patriots in the AFC title game? And I agree with you in spirit about Stewart. He was definitely not a QB who was going to put a team on his back and overcome a deficit at the end (although, interestingly, many Steelers fans have often said he would have in the loss to the Broncos in '97, had Elway not completed that pass to Sharpe), but I just do not think it is fair to call him a choker in a game where two other major parts of the team sucked and were much greater contributers to the deficit that the team was faced with in the waning minutes of the game. It is like saying, "Okay, Kordell, special teams and the running game have let you down all day, but we are only down by 7, so either win the game for us or the loss is your fault?" Not really fair, is it?

For the record I didn't call Stewart a choker.

I know you didn't. My more recent posts have been in response to Evilgrin 72's comment about Stewart choking in the '01 AFC title game.

Did Bettis thank Big Ben for saving him from being the biggest goat in playoff history by tackling the Colt DB who recovered his fumble?

We were just talking about this. Had Ben not made that tackle, Bettis would be Pittsburgh's Bill Buckner.

The special teams were the worst facet of the team that day for sure, but to say Kordell didn't choke with the game on the line is being too kind. It speaks to my point that when team knew he had to pass, he was unable to find seams in the defense and more often than not, would commit a bad turnover (or two) that cost the Steelers a shot at the game.

So, before last January, would you have called Peyton Manning a choker since he had NEVER brought his team from behind to win a game in the playoffs until the comeback win over the Patriots in the AFC title game? And I agree with you in spirit about Stewart. He was definitely not a QB who was going to put a team on his back and overcome a deficit at the end (although, interestingly, many Steelers fans have often said he would have in the loss to the Broncos in '97, had Elway not completed that pass to Sharpe), but I just do not think it is fair to call him a choker in a game where two other major parts of the team sucked and were much greater contributers to the deficit that the team was faced with in the waning minutes of the game. It is like saying, "Okay, Kordell, special teams and the running game have let you down all day, but we are only down by 7, so either win the game for us or the loss is your fault?" Not really fair, is it?

If Manning had, time and time again, thrown terrible interceptions or fumbled the ball away in opponents' territory when given a chance to win the game, then yes, I would have. In fact, many people (not me) called him a choker until he won the Super Bowl last year.And I'm not saying the loss was entirely his fault. It was a team loss. However, the point I was originally making is that Kordell was not a QB who could win big games for you, and he would fold late in games when the pressure was on. He was fine when the Steelers got ahead and could run the ball a lot - then, when they threw against a softened defense and he had open receivers, he could move the team. When they got behind, however, he usually stunk. If teams were able to sit back and wait on the deep ball, it was over. Rather than taking what the defense was giving him and moving the team down the field, Stewart would invariably try to take too much too soon and turn the ball over. He did it time and time again in big games. While the special teams were primarily what lost that game, Kordell turning it over 4 times didn't help matters (he also fumbled a second time, which Pittsburgh recovered.) While the ST and running game also failed, if you're a QB and you throw 3 picks and fumble twice in a conference title game, you have to take some of that heat, I'm sorry. As part of pattern of big-game flops, it pretty much paints a picture of a choker.Look at the aggregate stats in the 3 biggest games of his career ('97 and '01 AFCC and the '96 divisional loss to NE, he only played QB sporadically that season, but played a good portion of that game under center)42-88 (47.7%) 456 yards, 1 TD 6 INT, 3 fumbles (2 lost)He did rush for 104 yards and a TD in the 3 games, but 2 TDs and 8 turnovers? That's not a big-game QB to me. And if you want to make the case that they wouldn't have been playing in those games at all had Kordell not led them to victory - here are his aggregate stats in those playoffs in 2 penultimate games :26-53 (49%) 286 yards, 1 TD 2 INTNot exactly stellar either.Synopsis : No, it's not fair to dump the whole 2001 AFCC loss on Stewart, but it is fair to say that when he had chances late to tie the game, he failed spectacularly. For his career, he was not just a mediocre but a downright lousy QB in big games. That's why I call him a choker.. 4 TDs (combined rush/rec) and 10 turnovers in 5 playoff games as a QB = teh suck.

I get what you are saying, and there is much truth in it. Okay, so Stewart was not a good finisher. I agree. But how many QBs, on average in the NFL at any given time, ARE good finishers? Not many. You could also make the argument that the Steelers were always such a run-oriented team, that asking Stewart to suddenly start throwing the ball all over the place to lead them to victory at the end might have been asking a bit too much. Of course, Stewart probably wouldn't have done very well had the Steelers emphasized the pass with him, but that's neither here nor there. :XBasically, we agree for the most part, in that Stewart is not solely to blame for the '01 loss to the Patriots. So, there we have it.

 

[Evilgrin 72]

So, before last January, would you have called Peyton Manning a choker since he had NEVER brought his team from behind to win a game in the playoffs until the comeback win over the Patriots in the AFC title game? And I agree with you in spirit about Stewart. He was definitely not a QB who was going to put a team on his back and overcome a deficit at the end (although, interestingly, many Steelers fans have often said he would have in the loss to the Broncos in '97, had Elway not completed that pass to Sharpe), but I just do not think it is fair to call him a choker in a game where two other major parts of the team sucked and were much greater contributers to the deficit that the team was faced with in the waning minutes of the game. It is like saying, "Okay, Kordell, special teams and the running game have let you down all day, but we are only down by 7, so either win the game for us or the loss is your fault?" Not really fair, is it?

For the record I didn't call Stewart a choker.

I know you didn't. My more recent posts have been in response to Evilgrin 72's comment about Stewart choking in the '01 AFC title game.

Did Bettis thank Big Ben for saving him from being the biggest goat in playoff history by tackling the Colt DB who recovered his fumble?

We were just talking about this. Had Ben not made that tackle, Bettis would be Pittsburgh's Bill Buckner.

The special teams were the worst facet of the team that day for sure, but to say Kordell didn't choke with the game on the line is being too kind. It speaks to my point that when team knew he had to pass, he was unable to find seams in the defense and more often than not, would commit a bad turnover (or two) that cost the Steelers a shot at the game.

So, before last January, would you have called Peyton Manning a choker since he had NEVER brought his team from behind to win a game in the playoffs until the comeback win over the Patriots in the AFC title game? And I agree with you in spirit about Stewart. He was definitely not a QB who was going to put a team on his back and overcome a deficit at the end (although, interestingly, many Steelers fans have often said he would have in the loss to the Broncos in '97, had Elway not completed that pass to Sharpe), but I just do not think it is fair to call him a choker in a game where two other major parts of the team sucked and were much greater contributers to the deficit that the team was faced with in the waning minutes of the game. It is like saying, "Okay, Kordell, special teams and the running game have let you down all day, but we are only down by 7, so either win the game for us or the loss is your fault?" Not really fair, is it?

If Manning had, time and time again, thrown terrible interceptions or fumbled the ball away in opponents' territory when given a chance to win the game, then yes, I would have. In fact, many people (not me) called him a choker until he won the Super Bowl last year.And I'm not saying the loss was entirely his fault. It was a team loss. However, the point I was originally making is that Kordell was not a QB who could win big games for you, and he would fold late in games when the pressure was on. He was fine when the Steelers got ahead and could run the ball a lot - then, when they threw against a softened defense and he had open receivers, he could move the team. When they got behind, however, he usually stunk. If teams were able to sit back and wait on the deep ball, it was over. Rather than taking what the defense was giving him and moving the team down the field, Stewart would invariably try to take too much too soon and turn the ball over. He did it time and time again in big games. While the special teams were primarily what lost that game, Kordell turning it over 4 times didn't help matters (he also fumbled a second time, which Pittsburgh recovered.) While the ST and running game also failed, if you're a QB and you throw 3 picks and fumble twice in a conference title game, you have to take some of that heat, I'm sorry. As part of pattern of big-game flops, it pretty much paints a picture of a choker.Look at the aggregate stats in the 3 biggest games of his career ('97 and '01 AFCC and the '96 divisional loss to NE, he only played QB sporadically that season, but played a good portion of that game under center)42-88 (47.7%) 456 yards, 1 TD 6 INT, 3 fumbles (2 lost)He did rush for 104 yards and a TD in the 3 games, but 2 TDs and 8 turnovers? That's not a big-game QB to me. And if you want to make the case that they wouldn't have been playing in those games at all had Kordell not led them to victory - here are his aggregate stats in those playoffs in 2 penultimate games :26-53 (49%) 286 yards, 1 TD 2 INTNot exactly stellar either.Synopsis : No, it's not fair to dump the whole 2001 AFCC loss on Stewart, but it is fair to say that when he had chances late to tie the game, he failed spectacularly. For his career, he was not just a mediocre but a downright lousy QB in big games. That's why I call him a choker.. 4 TDs (combined rush/rec) and 10 turnovers in 5 playoff games as a QB = teh suck.

I get what you are saying, and there is much truth in it. Okay, so Stewart was not a good finisher. I agree. But how many QBs, on average in the NFL at any given time, ARE good finishers? Not many. You could also make the argument that the Steelers were always such a run-oriented team, that asking Stewart to suddenly start throwing the ball all over the place to lead them to victory at the end might have been asking a bit too much. Of course, Stewart probably wouldn't have done very well had the Steelers emphasized the pass with him, but that's neither here nor there. Basically, we agree for the most part, in that Stewart is not solely to blame for the '01 loss to the Patriots. So, there we have it.

Agreed. The entire team was to blame. However, Kordell gets his fair share for squandering multiple opportunities to carry the team when they needed him to. Hell, Roethlisberger won more games for them with his arm in his rookie season that Kordell did in his entire career.

 

[Browns Rule!]

As a Browns fan, I could honestly say, Kordell Stewart was one of my favorite QB's all time. When he was playing against the Browns, I knew he would give us a good chance to win.

 

[Godsbrother]

As a Browns fan, I could honestly say, Kordell Stewart was one of my favorite QB's all time. When he was playing against the Browns, I knew he would give us a good chance to win.

Funny, we always felt that way about Vinny.

 

[Pittsburgh United]

As a Browns fan, I could honestly say, Kordell Stewart was one of my favorite QB's all time. When he was playing against the Browns, I knew he would give us a good chance to win.

Funny, we always felt that way about Vinny any Browns QB or RB or WR.

Fixed.

 

[CrossEyed]

As a Browns fan, I could honestly say, Kordell Stewart was one of my favorite QB's all time. When he was playing against the Browns, I knew he would give us a good chance to win.

Funny, we always felt that way about Vinny.

and Brian Sipe, and Bernie Kosar, and Tim Couch, and Charlie Frye....