Big Banks Plead Guilty to Felonies - How about some jail time? (1 Viewer)

[urbanhack]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/05/20/408215382/big-banks-pay-5-6-billion-plead-guilty-to-felonies-over-currency-fixing-scheme

Why do anything? Why not double the fines? They'll pay it and do the same thing years from now. Where's the outrage?

Citicorp, JPMorgan Chase, Barclays, The Royal Bank of Scotland and UBS AG have agreed to plead guilty to felony charges and pay billions in criminal fines, the Department of Justice says. The offenses range from manipulating the value of dollars and euros to rigging interest rates.

Citicorp, JPMorgan Chase, Barclays, The Royal Bank of Scotland will pay fines totaling $2.5 billion to the Justice Department. In addition, the Federal Reserve is imposing fines of more than $1.6 billion on the five banks.

In separate arrangements, Barclays will pay other U.S. and British agencies an additional $1.3 billion, and UBS will plead guilty to manipulating the London Interbank Offered Rate (LIBOR) and other benchmark interest rates, after the Justice Department found the bank's actions had breached a December 2012 non-prosecution agreement.

A breakdown of the fines paid to the Fed and Justice:

• Citicorp: $1.26 billion
• Barclays: $992 million
• JPMorgan: $892 million
• RBS: $669 million
• UBS: $545 million
• Bank of America: $205 million

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

TOO BIG TO FAIL JAIL

 

[The Commish]

Exactly one person went to jail for the 2008 fiasco and that's because he plead guilty in court. It's amazing really.

 

[SkyRattlers]

This is just the official means by which the government gets their cut of the proceeds from the criminal racket.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

I was reading about this yesterday. But I couldn't find any estimates on how much was grifted via this exercise. Has anyone seen that?

 

[Chadstroma]

They are plea deals. It is easier, costs less for the Justics Dept and does not have the burdens of proof that prosecution does (this maybe not getting anything). Just like in criminal cases where people plead down charges and fines/jail time/probation etc. It is much easier to say that an organization acted wrongly and pressure a settlement than it is to actually bring specific charges for individuals in that organization with the burden of proof needed to win.

The fines listed above are just he US fines and not what foreign governments have fined.

 

[Mile High]

They will just past the cost of the fines down to us.

 

[RCon]

They are plea deals. It is easier, costs less for the Justics Dept and does not have the burdens of proof that prosecution does (this maybe not getting anything). Just like in criminal cases where people plead down charges and fines/jail time/probation etc. It is much easier to say that an organization acted wrongly and pressure a settlement than it is to actually bring specific charges for individuals in that organization with the burden of proof needed to win.

The fines listed above are just he US fines and not what foreign governments have fined.

Perhaps, but the issue is that financial settlements don't serve as a deterrent in the future. When the bank can make $2B through illegal transactions, and pay 25% of that as a fine, this only ensures that it will happen again and again. Put the C-level execs in jail, and maybe next time the new execs make certain it doesn't happen.

 

[Short Corner]

Can't put em in jail, they need that space for all of the dope smokers.

 

[TheAristocrat]

Since we have our pitchforks out, we should also go after entities within the federal government who was not blameless for the economic crisis.

 

[kevzilla]

This is why Wall Street greases both parties. No matter who's in power when they get busted, it's somebody they helped to get elected. Sorry if you were expecting something different.

 

[Chadstroma]

They are plea deals. It is easier, costs less for the Justics Dept and does not have the burdens of proof that prosecution does (this maybe not getting anything). Just like in criminal cases where people plead down charges and fines/jail time/probation etc. It is much easier to say that an organization acted wrongly and pressure a settlement than it is to actually bring specific charges for individuals in that organization with the burden of proof needed to win.

The fines listed above are just he US fines and not what foreign governments have fined.

Perhaps, but the issue is that financial settlements don't serve as a deterrent in the future. When the bank can make $2B through illegal transactions, and pay 25% of that as a fine, this only ensures that it will happen again and again. Put the C-level execs in jail, and maybe next time the new execs make certain it doesn't happen.

I don't disagree and I am not against criminal prosecutions of individuals (it does happen but perhaps not enough). In the circumstances that I am aware of in things along these lines, it is not as much an organizational decision to do wrong and pay a fine later but rather individuals who have incentives to make money and then alter things. As an example, with RBS the main problem seemed to be that you had the guys setting rates sitting almost across from the guys trading on these rates. Trader says to rate setter "Hey, can you help me out?" and setter does it out of peer pressure or whatever else. Unless you get someone to flip on the others, it would be hard to get a prosecution out of that and again it is not so much with the mind set of doing this now to make money for the organization and the fine is the cost of doing business.

There are reputational considerations here as well but then again too many people are too lazy, not informed or don't care to act on an issue like this. You don't like this stuff? Don't do business with these banks. Just your business does not matter but if you convince a whole lotta people to do the same, then it starts to make a dent and they will put in more controls to make sure this stuff does not happen moving forward.

 

[IC FBGCav]

How does Goldman come out of this unscathed? Oh wait, they are the US Treasury Department.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Lol how do you put a bank in jail? Oh, now you DO want to treat corporations like people huh?

wut

 

[Ned]

Put each CEO in jail. That'll learn'm.

 

[Johnnymac]

There should have been many individuals prosecuted for the 2008 crisis. It's an absolute travesty that nobody seems to care about. I mean, these banks basically crippled the world economy and were saved by the Fed in the form of bailouts. So the taxpayer is on the hook for these fat cats sailing on their ####### yachts in the hamptons. Oh and here is the best part, nothing has changed. They are free to do exactly what they did before, and they will. It may not be in chopped up bad mortgages, but it will be some other financial instrument. Isn't this country grand?

 

[Chadstroma]

There should have been many individuals prosecuted for the 2008 crisis. It's an absolute travesty that nobody seems to care about. I mean, these banks basically crippled the world economy and were saved by the Fed in the form of bailouts. So the taxpayer is on the hook for these fat cats sailing on their ####### yachts in the hamptons. Oh and here is the best part, nothing has changed. They are free to do exactly what they did before, and they will. It may not be in chopped up bad mortgages, but it will be some other financial instrument. Isn't this country grand?

Who exactly would you prosecute (specific names) and with what charges (specific charges)?

 

[eoMMan]

Maybe make the executives stand on the street corner with one of those big embarassing signs?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

The corporate oligarchy has to stop.

 

[The General]

Agreed. And make it pound me in the ### prison.

 

[Johnnymac]

There should have been many individuals prosecuted for the 2008 crisis. It's an absolute travesty that nobody seems to care about. I mean, these banks basically crippled the world economy and were saved by the Fed in the form of bailouts. So the taxpayer is on the hook for these fat cats sailing on their ####### yachts in the hamptons. Oh and here is the best part, nothing has changed. They are free to do exactly what they did before, and they will. It may not be in chopped up bad mortgages, but it will be some other financial instrument. Isn't this country grand?

Who exactly would you prosecute (specific names) and with what charges (specific charges)?

Well Lloyd Blankfein for one. He should be charged with securities fraud and for being a scumbag in general.

 

[kevzilla]

There should have been many individuals prosecuted for the 2008 crisis. It's an absolute travesty that nobody seems to care about. I mean, these banks basically crippled the world economy and were saved by the Fed in the form of bailouts. So the taxpayer is on the hook for these fat cats sailing on their ####### yachts in the hamptons. Oh and here is the best part, nothing has changed. They are free to do exactly what they did before, and they will. It may not be in chopped up bad mortgages, but it will be some other financial instrument. Isn't this country grand?

Who exactly would you prosecute (specific names) and with what charges (specific charges)?

Well Lloyd Blankfein for one. He should be charged with securities fraud and for being a scumbag in general.

I understand the sentiment, but half this board would be in prison.

 

[Chadstroma]

There should have been many individuals prosecuted for the 2008 crisis. It's an absolute travesty that nobody seems to care about. I mean, these banks basically crippled the world economy and were saved by the Fed in the form of bailouts. So the taxpayer is on the hook for these fat cats sailing on their ####### yachts in the hamptons. Oh and here is the best part, nothing has changed. They are free to do exactly what they did before, and they will. It may not be in chopped up bad mortgages, but it will be some other financial instrument. Isn't this country grand?

Who exactly would you prosecute (specific names) and with what charges (specific charges)?

Well Lloyd Blankfein for one. He should be charged with securities fraud and for being a scumbag in general.

Ok, so do you think he personally committed any securities fraud? Or do you think there would be evidence that he directed to commit fraud? I would highly doubt both.

 

[Soonerman]

It's not about real justice, it's about show trials, a specialty of the left wingers. Next up, put climate change deniers on trial.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Tough issue. Would I rather see Jaime Dimon go to prison for 5 years vs. these guys having to ante up $5B in fines? While that may satisfy my blood thirst, is that really a more efficient return for tax payers? Perhaps the billions in fines, puts the savings from litigation enable more robust oversight in the long run?

 

[ShamrockPride]

It's not about real justice, it's about show trials, a specialty of the left wingers. Next up, put climate change deniers on trial.

Let's not make this red vs blue. We're screwed regardless as long as those two run things.

 

[The Commish]

Tough issue. Would I rather see Jaime Diamond go to prison for 5 years vs. these guys having to ante up $5B in fines? While that may satisfy my blood thirst, is that really a more efficient return for tax payers? Perhaps the billions in fines, puts the savings from litigation enable more robust oversight in the long run?

"We" don't see a dime of that money. There is no "return for the tax payer". We go into debt more and more every year. Now, if this money was put into some sort of fund that could only go towards things that would directly benefit the people, maybe we can talk. Our infrastructure needs a major upgrade. Stop being political dooshnozzles in Washington and put every penny of these "fines" into a fund to fix it. Then we can talk about "return for tax payers". Heck, I'd probably even agree with you on this one.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Tough issue. Would I rather see Jaime Diamond go to prison for 5 years vs. these guys having to ante up $5B in fines? While that may satisfy my blood thirst, is that really a more efficient return for tax payers? Perhaps the billions in fines, puts the savings from litigation enable more robust oversight in the long run?

"We" don't see a dime of that money. There is no "return for the tax payer". We go into debt more and more every year. Now, if this money was put into some sort of fund that could only go towards things that would directly benefit the people, maybe we can talk. Our infrastructure needs a major upgrade. Stop being political dooshnozzles in Washington and put every penny of these "fines" into a fund to fix it. Then we can talk about "return for tax payers". Heck, I'd probably even agree with you on this one.

Get-R dun, right Commish? Yee-HAW!!!!!

 

[urbanhack]

Tough issue. Would I rather see Jaime Diamond go to prison for 5 years vs. these guys having to ante up $5B in fines? While that may satisfy my blood thirst, is that really a more efficient return for tax payers? Perhaps the billions in fines, puts the savings from litigation enable more robust oversight in the long run?

Double the fines....triple the fines......it doesn't matter. The individuals responsible for this are protected by the corporate veil. Let's just accept the fact the ultra wealthy are going to keep creating their wealth out of the thin air at the expense of the middle class with no real paper trail. That's the world we've created. Congrats.

 

[Christo]

They are plea deals. It is easier, costs less for the Justics Dept and does not have the burdens of proof that prosecution does (this maybe not getting anything). Just like in criminal cases where people plead down charges and fines/jail time/probation etc. It is much easier to say that an organization acted wrongly and pressure a settlement than it is to actually bring specific charges for individuals in that organization with the burden of proof needed to win.

The fines listed above are just he US fines and not what foreign governments have fined.

It still doesn't mean ####. The people who made the decisions should also be paying.

 

[Johnnymac]

There should have been many individuals prosecuted for the 2008 crisis. It's an absolute travesty that nobody seems to care about. I mean, these banks basically crippled the world economy and were saved by the Fed in the form of bailouts. So the taxpayer is on the hook for these fat cats sailing on their ####### yachts in the hamptons. Oh and here is the best part, nothing has changed. They are free to do exactly what they did before, and they will. It may not be in chopped up bad mortgages, but it will be some other financial instrument. Isn't this country grand?

Who exactly would you prosecute (specific names) and with what charges (specific charges)?

Well Lloyd Blankfein for one. He should be charged with securities fraud and for being a scumbag in general.

Ok, so do you think he personally committed any securities fraud? Or do you think there would be evidence that he directed to commit fraud? I would highly doubt both.

He's the top guy, if he didn't know then he should not be in that position. I don't think there has been much of an attempt to investigate.

 

[Johnnymac]

I don't think these fines have anything to do with the 2008 financial crisis. These fines are for manipulating the dollar I think.

 

[urbanhack]

I don't think these fines have anything to do with the 2008 financial crisis. These fines are for manipulating the dollar I think.

They are for manipulating currencies around the world.

 

[Mister CIA]

Thanks Hillary.

 

[Chadstroma]

There should have been many individuals prosecuted for the 2008 crisis. It's an absolute travesty that nobody seems to care about. I mean, these banks basically crippled the world economy and were saved by the Fed in the form of bailouts. So the taxpayer is on the hook for these fat cats sailing on their ####### yachts in the hamptons. Oh and here is the best part, nothing has changed. They are free to do exactly what they did before, and they will. It may not be in chopped up bad mortgages, but it will be some other financial instrument. Isn't this country grand?

Who exactly would you prosecute (specific names) and with what charges (specific charges)?

Well Lloyd Blankfein for one. He should be charged with securities fraud and for being a scumbag in general.

Ok, so do you think he personally committed any securities fraud? Or do you think there would be evidence that he directed to commit fraud? I would highly doubt both.

He's the top guy, if he didn't know then he should not be in that position. I don't think there has been much of an attempt to investigate.

Knowing what is going on and being criminally culpable are two different things.

You can debate whether or not a CEO of a Fortune 500 should know everything going on in a company (they don't) but taking someone like Lloyd and throwing him in jail actually takes a criminal charge that you have evidence for. Not simply wrong doing within an organization.

 

[Apple Jack]

They are plea deals. It is easier, costs less for the Justics Dept and does not have the burdens of proof that prosecution does (this maybe not getting anything). Just like in criminal cases where people plead down charges and fines/jail time/probation etc. It is much easier to say that an organization acted wrongly and pressure a settlement than it is to actually bring specific charges for individuals in that organization with the burden of proof needed to win.

The fines listed above are just he US fines and not what foreign governments have fined.

whatever it takes to make sure these people operate without fear of doing any time in the joint.

 

[Chadstroma]

They are plea deals. It is easier, costs less for the Justics Dept and does not have the burdens of proof that prosecution does (this maybe not getting anything). Just like in criminal cases where people plead down charges and fines/jail time/probation etc. It is much easier to say that an organization acted wrongly and pressure a settlement than it is to actually bring specific charges for individuals in that organization with the burden of proof needed to win.

The fines listed above are just he US fines and not what foreign governments have fined.

whatever it takes to make sure these people operate without fear of doing any time in the joint.

So, throw law and order out the window and get the pitchforks.

 

[Mister CIA]

They are plea deals. It is easier, costs less for the Justics Dept and does not have the burdens of proof that prosecution does (this maybe not getting anything). Just like in criminal cases where people plead down charges and fines/jail time/probation etc. It is much easier to say that an organization acted wrongly and pressure a settlement than it is to actually bring specific charges for individuals in that organization with the burden of proof needed to win.

The fines listed above are just he US fines and not what foreign governments have fined.

whatever it takes to make sure these people operate without fear of doing any time in the joint.

So, throw law and order out the window and get the pitchforks.

I'm willing to make an exception.

 

[Apple Jack]

They are plea deals. It is easier, costs less for the Justics Dept and does not have the burdens of proof that prosecution does (this maybe not getting anything). Just like in criminal cases where people plead down charges and fines/jail time/probation etc. It is much easier to say that an organization acted wrongly and pressure a settlement than it is to actually bring specific charges for individuals in that organization with the burden of proof needed to win.

The fines listed above are just he US fines and not what foreign governments have fined.

whatever it takes to make sure these people operate without fear of doing any time in the joint.

So, throw law and order out the window and get the pitchforks.

i'd settle for at least somebody doing time so there is at least a sliver of a thought that there might be consequences. who even pays these fines?

 

[moleculo]

I think a billion dollars in fines would be more than enough to fund an investigation into who the decision makers are.

One other suggestion, which probably would take some legislation- make CEO's personally responsible for any criminal wrong-doing, unless they can turn over evidence incriminating someone acting outside their authority.

This shouldn't be that difficult.

 

[The Big Guy]

In this LIBOR rigging case, there are specific people who were involved and could be or should be personally prosecuted for their actions. I am not about a CEO going to jail because some of their people did wrong, but these people were identified and are known. They should be held responsible for their actions.

 

[Johnnymac]

There should have been many individuals prosecuted for the 2008 crisis. It's an absolute travesty that nobody seems to care about. I mean, these banks basically crippled the world economy and were saved by the Fed in the form of bailouts. So the taxpayer is on the hook for these fat cats sailing on their ####### yachts in the hamptons. Oh and here is the best part, nothing has changed. They are free to do exactly what they did before, and they will. It may not be in chopped up bad mortgages, but it will be some other financial instrument. Isn't this country grand?

Who exactly would you prosecute (specific names) and with what charges (specific charges)?

Well Lloyd Blankfein for one. He should be charged with securities fraud and for being a scumbag in general.

Ok, so do you think he personally committed any securities fraud? Or do you think there would be evidence that he directed to commit fraud? I would highly doubt both.

He's the top guy, if he didn't know then he should not be in that position. I don't think there has been much of an attempt to investigate.

Knowing what is going on and being criminally culpable are two different things.

You can debate whether or not a CEO of a Fortune 500 should know everything going on in a company (they don't) but taking someone like Lloyd and throwing him in jail actually takes a criminal charge that you have evidence for. Not simply wrong doing within an organization.

It also takes a prosecutor with some balls.

 

[flapgreen]

This is just the official means by which the government gets their cut of the proceeds from the criminal racket.

yuuuuuup

 

[The Commish]

Tough issue. Would I rather see Jaime Diamond go to prison for 5 years vs. these guys having to ante up $5B in fines? While that may satisfy my blood thirst, is that really a more efficient return for tax payers? Perhaps the billions in fines, puts the savings from litigation enable more robust oversight in the long run?

Double the fines....triple the fines......it doesn't matter. The individuals responsible for this are protected by the corporate veil. Let's just accept the fact the ultra wealthy are going to keep creating their wealth out of the thin air at the expense of the middle class with no real paper trail. That's the world we've created. Congrats.

Bingo

 

[flapgreen]

Tough issue. Would I rather see Jaime Diamond go to prison for 5 years vs. these guys having to ante up $5B in fines? While that may satisfy my blood thirst, is that really a more efficient return for tax payers? Perhaps the billions in fines, puts the savings from litigation enable more robust oversight in the long run?

Double the fines....triple the fines......it doesn't matter. The individuals responsible for this are protected by the corporate veil. Let's just accept the fact the ultra wealthy are going to keep creating their wealth out of the thin air at the expense of the middle class with no real paper trail. That's the world we've created. Congrats.

Bingo

That's it. Government officials are the ones getting rich. Half of them used to work for the banks who are doing this stuff. Nothing more than common thieves.

 

[flapgreen]

They are plea deals. It is easier, costs less for the Justics Dept and does not have the burdens of proof that prosecution does (this maybe not getting anything). Just like in criminal cases where people plead down charges and fines/jail time/probation etc. It is much easier to say that an organization acted wrongly and pressure a settlement than it is to actually bring specific charges for individuals in that organization with the burden of proof needed to win.

The fines listed above are just he US fines and not what foreign governments have fined.

whatever it takes to make sure these people operate without fear of doing any time in the joint.

So, throw law and order out the window and get the pitchforks.

What do you suggest?

 

[Sinn Fein]

Tough issue. Would I rather see Jaime Diamond go to prison for 5 years vs. these guys having to ante up $5B in fines? While that may satisfy my blood thirst, is that really a more efficient return for tax payers? Perhaps the billions in fines, puts the savings from litigation enable more robust oversight in the long run?

Taxpayers are ####ed either way. This will be like taking money out of their left pocket and putting it in their right pocket. corporations don't pay fines, customers pay those fines.

Real jail time for executives would be the easiest way to curb similar behavior in the future.

 

[TwinTurbo]

These guys will never face courtroom justice. I do remember this story though: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/3150319/Richard-Fuld-punched-in-face-in-Lehman-Brothers-gym.html

Instead of jail or a fine, it would have been interesting to see some of these guys forced to run through a gauntlet of investors and ex-employees.

 

[flapgreen]

These guys will never face courtroom justice. I do remember this story though: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/3150319/Richard-Fuld-punched-in-face-in-Lehman-Brothers-gym.html

Instead of jail or a fine, it would have been interesting to see some of these guys forced to run through a gauntlet of investors and ex-employees.

Now that is AWESOME!

 

[RUSF18]

Jamie DIMON. Better to have it correct for your indictment, FWIW.