Let's talk about illegal immigration (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

So businesses would be allowed to hire foreign guest workers below minimum wage, but not hire citizens below minimum wage? How in the world does that make sense?

So is this all I get Rich? You accuse me of refusing to compromise, and here I make a proposal full of compromises, and this is your only response?

 

[timschochet]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

Hes right.

I guess you lost me at "doing more than any of you did to be here".

Well that part's easy. Anyone who comes here to live, with the intent on staying, whether legal or illegal, has done more to be here than anybody who is born here, like me (and I'm assuming you.) In the case of illegal immigrants and refugees, what many of them have in common is that they risked their lives to come here. Some of them separated from their loved ones to do so. Those people appreciate America in a way that you (and I) never will.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

Hes right.

I guess you lost me at "doing more than any of you did to be here".

Well that part's easy. Anyone who comes here to live, with the intent on staying, whether legal or illegal, has done more to be here than anybody who is born here, like me (and I'm assuming you.) In the case of illegal immigrants and refugees, what many of them have in common is that they risked their lives to come here. Some of them separated from their loved ones to do so. Those people appreciate America in a way that you (and I) never will.

No...this is one of your massive and broad generalizations.

 

[timschochet]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

Hes right.

I guess you lost me at "doing more than any of you did to be here".

Well that part's easy. Anyone who comes here to live, with the intent on staying, whether legal or illegal, has done more to be here than anybody who is born here, like me (and I'm assuming you.) In the case of illegal immigrants and refugees, what many of them have in common is that they risked their lives to come here. Some of them separated from their loved ones to do so. Those people appreciate America in a way that you (and I) never will.

No...this is one of your massive and broad generalizations.

Have to rely on jonessed' criticism? Can't come up with one of your own?

 

[BeaverCleaver]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

Hes right.

I guess you lost me at "doing more than any of you did to be here".

Well that part's easy. Anyone who comes here to live, with the intent on staying, whether legal or illegal, has done more to be here than anybody who is born here, like me (and I'm assuming you.) In the case of illegal immigrants and refugees, what many of them have in common is that they risked their lives to come here. Some of them separated from their loved ones to do so. Those people appreciate America in a way that you (and I) never will.

No...this is one of your massive and broad generalizations.

Have to rely on jonessed' criticism? Can't come up with one of your own?

Just shut up for once. It's true...what you wrote is a massive over generalization. How dare you say illegals appreciate America more than us. That's crap in the broad brush as you like to paint.

 

[timschochet]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

Hes right.

I guess you lost me at "doing more than any of you did to be here".

Well that part's easy. Anyone who comes here to live, with the intent on staying, whether legal or illegal, has done more to be here than anybody who is born here, like me (and I'm assuming you.) In the case of illegal immigrants and refugees, what many of them have in common is that they risked their lives to come here. Some of them separated from their loved ones to do so. Those people appreciate America in a way that you (and I) never will.

No...this is one of your massive and broad generalizations.

Have to rely on jonessed' criticism? Can't come up with one of your own?

Just shut up for once. It's true...what you wrote is a massive over generalization. How dare you say illegals appreciate America more than us. That's crap in the broad brush as you like to paint.

You're a really angry dude. All of your posts are peppered with insults and "just shut up." You ought to take deep breaths once in a while.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

Hes right.

I guess you lost me at "doing more than any of you did to be here".

Well that part's easy. Anyone who comes here to live, with the intent on staying, whether legal or illegal, has done more to be here than anybody who is born here, like me (and I'm assuming you.) In the case of illegal immigrants and refugees, what many of them have in common is that they risked their lives to come here. Some of them separated from their loved ones to do so. Those people appreciate America in a way that you (and I) never will.

No...this is one of your massive and broad generalizations.

Have to rely on jonessed' criticism? Can't come up with one of your own?

Just shut up for once. It's true...what you wrote is a massive over generalization. How dare you say illegals appreciate America more than us. That's crap in the broad brush as you like to paint.

You're a really angry dude. All of your posts are peppered with insults and "just shut up." You ought to take deep breaths once in a while.

Again...the broad over generalizations.

 

[timschochet]

Well sorry but that's how I see you. You're a conservative, which is fine. But you offer nothing to any of these discussions other than "shut up" or an insult or sometimes or you roll your eyes. And you seem to be very bitter about it.

 

[Mario Kart]

The Great God speaks about immigration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixi9_cciy8w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_zNR53k5Lg

Been a discussion for 200 years. He does make a good point albeit not his main one... Mexico needs to move out of poverty and their country will thrive. As long as they are poor, immigrants will keep coming here.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Well sorry but that's how I see you. You're a conservative, which is fine. But you offer nothing to any of these discussions other than "shut up" or an insult or sometimes or you roll your eyes. And you seem to be very bitter about it.

You forgot to add your claim I hate Obama because he's black.

 

[timschochet]

Well sorry but that's how I see you. You're a conservative, which is fine. But you offer nothing to any of these discussions other than "shut up" or an insult or sometimes or you roll your eyes. And you seem to be very bitter about it.

You forgot to add your claim I hate Obama because he's black.

I didn't even know you hate Obama. Do you?

 

[BeaverCleaver]

Well sorry but that's how I see you. You're a conservative, which is fine. But you offer nothing to any of these discussions other than "shut up" or an insult or sometimes or you roll your eyes. And you seem to be very bitter about it.

You forgot to add your claim I hate Obama because he's black.

I didn't even know you hate Obama. Do you?

Really? You written it several times about me. And no I don't hate him. You're pathetic Tim.

 

[timschochet]

Well sorry but that's how I see you. You're a conservative, which is fine. But you offer nothing to any of these discussions other than "shut up" or an insult or sometimes or you roll your eyes. And you seem to be very bitter about it.

You forgot to add your claim I hate Obama because he's black.

I didn't even know you hate Obama. Do you?

Really? You written it several times about me. And no I don't hate him. You're pathetic Tim.

I don't remember doing that. But I'm glad you don't hate him. You still seem pretty angry though.

 

[Ladsud]

Happy new year from Obama! Deportation raid gets his buddies mad.

http://news.yahoo.com/us-democrats-furious-over-obama-administration-deportations-221803814.html

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

Hes right.

I guess you lost me at "doing more than any of you did to be here".

Well that part's easy. Anyone who comes here to live, with the intent on staying, whether legal or illegal, has done more to be here than anybody who is born here, like me (and I'm assuming you.) In the case of illegal immigrants and refugees, what many of them have in common is that they risked their lives to come here. Some of them separated from their loved ones to do so. Those people appreciate America in a way that you (and I) never will.

I hope you do not find out later that he has served his country, killed for his country, sacrificed prime years for his country, or suffered friends and family dying in service thereof.

Who knows, maybe like John Rambo he merely wants his country to love him, as much as he loves it.

 

[timschochet]

DW I am grateful to every American who has served in the military, and I tell them so every chance I get to do so.

 

[SIDA!]

Because one of the main reasons for illegal

Immigration is that minimum wage creates a black market for certain industries; illegals come here to fill it. She long as this is not addressed there will Always be more illegal immigration no matter what else you do.

Um. If guy enforce the border and fine /imprison employers who hire illegals then the black market will be next to nothing.

But I do think it is kind of neat that you favor letting businesses exploit minorities for cheap labor while at the same time condemning many others on the right for being racist on a variety of issues.

 

[SIDA!]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

Liberals love exploiting brown skinned and other minorities while claiming to be their best friend and an advocate for the working man.

 

[SIDA!]

I look at illegal immigrants working difficult jobs for low pay as a way for them buy their way into America. And at least they are doing more than any of you did to be here.

You are a piece of work.

Hes right.

I guess you lost me at "doing more than any of you did to be here".

Well that part's easy. Anyone who comes here to live, with the intent on staying, whether legal or illegal, has done more to be here than anybody who is born here, like me (and I'm assuming you.) In the case of illegal immigrants and refugees, what many of them have in common is that they risked their lives to come here. Some of them separated from their loved ones to do so. Those people appreciate America in a way that you (and I) never will.

I love it. When illegals voluntarily break up their family we should be grateful as a nation because uneducated poor people who can't speak our language are coming here to boost our economy.

When illegals punt their kids over the border and let them cross solo without any adult supervision it is an act of love.

But if Americans want to enforce the law and reunite families by deporting them we are the evil racists.

 

[jon_mx]

We aren't Mexico junior. We're America!

I mentioned there was an element of racism in some of the attitudes towards this issue, and I was attacked for it. Here it is. Can anyone deny that what Eminence is expressing here is a popular sentiment among many Trump supporters?

Can you ever resist the need to paint large groups of people with a broad brush. You seem to need to do this on every topic. It is the same quality that people hate about bigots. Please stop being a topic-bigot. Making a judgement on people by their view on one topic is utterly disgusting. It is why you have a chance on beating Em as the biggest dumb####. It is really really ugly of you. Stick to debating factual points, not some prejudicial statement concerning people who believe 'x' are almost always 'y'. All you are doing is trying to belittle people on the other side of a topic. It is a ####### horrible tactic.

 

[RCon]

So businesses would be allowed to hire foreign guest workers below minimum wage, but not hire citizens below minimum wage? How in the world does that make sense?

So is this all I get Rich? You accuse me of refusing to compromise, and here I make a proposal full of compromises, and this is your only response?

I feel asleep early last night. I'll reply a bit later with more thoughts.

 

[timschochet]

We aren't Mexico junior. We're America!

I mentioned there was an element of racism in some of the attitudes towards this issue, and I was attacked for it. Here it is. Can anyone deny that what Eminence is expressing here is a popular sentiment among many Trump supporters?

Can you ever resist the need to paint large groups of people with a broad brush. You seem to need to do this on every topic. It is the same quality that people hate about bigots. Please stop being a topic-bigot. Making a judgement on people by their view on one topic is utterly disgusting. It is why you have a chance on beating Em as the biggest dumb####. It is really really ugly of you. Stick to debating factual points, not some prejudicial statement concerning people who believe 'x' are almost always 'y'. All you are doing is trying to belittle people on the other side of a topic. It is a ####### horrible tactic.

Sometimes generalities are accurate. You get very upset whenever a negative is made against any conservatives, no matter what the subgroup. In this case I wrote "many Trump supporters" feel this way. Not all but many. I stand by that statement.

 

[jon_mx]

We aren't Mexico junior. We're America!

I mentioned there was an element of racism in some of the attitudes towards this issue, and I was attacked for it. Here it is.Can anyone deny that what Eminence is expressing here is a popular sentiment among many Trump supporters?

Can you ever resist the need to paint large groups of people with a broad brush. You seem to need to do this on every topic. It is the same quality that people hate about bigots. Please stop being a topic-bigot. Making a judgement on people by their view on one topic is utterly disgusting. It is why you have a chance on beating Em as the biggest dumb####. It is really really ugly of you. Stick to debating factual points, not some prejudicial statement concerning people who believe 'x' are almost always 'y'. All you are doing is trying to belittle people on the other side of a topic. It is a ####### horrible tactic.

Sometimes generalities are accurate. You get very upset whenever a negative is made against any conservatives, no matter what the subgroup. In this case I wrote "many Trump supporters" feel this way. Not all but many. I stand by that statement.

You could use the same reasoning for defending the Bell Curve's hypothesis that genetics plays a role in the difference of intelligence between races. When Em goes off and says something stupid like 'many/most black people blah, blah. blah', it is offensive. What is the motive for trying to establish that a certain race or group of people might be dumber or whatever? It is to belittle that entire group, even if you acknowledge it is only many of that group and some may actually be smart. You are doing the EXACT same thing people hate about bigrotry. It establishes a reason to discriminate against an entire group. In fact it is just a different form of bigotry. It is pure hateful drivel.

 

[timschochet]

But I am prejudiced against Trump supporters jon. I think they're low information. I think a lot of them are bigoted. I don't hate them but I don't much like them.

And there's a big difference between not liking a group based on what they think vs their ethnicity. I don't like Communists or Nazis or Islamists either. Am I bigoted for disliking these groups?

 

[jonessed]

But I am prejudiced against Trump supporters jon. I think they're low information. I think a lot of them are bigoted. I don't hate them but I don't much like them.

And there's a big difference between not liking a group based on what they think vs their ethnicity. I don't like Communists or Nazis or Islamists either. Am I bigoted for disliking these groups?

You are pretty bigoted. A lot of people are, but it's not always easy to see. The sheer number of posts you make coupled with the sweeping generalizations often included make it readily apparent.

 

[The Commish]

But I am prejudiced against Trump supporters jon. I think they're low information. I think a lot of them are bigoted. I don't hate them but I don't much like them.

And there's a big difference between not liking a group based on what they think vs their ethnicity. I don't like Communists or Nazis or Islamists either. Am I bigoted for disliking these groups?

Of course...as most of us are. I don't know where this term got its negative connotation. it's a point of fact if we're being honest. Intolerance is the measure we go by when speaking of being bigoted. Where most might argue you are different, you address by saying your prejudice. That's where the line is drawn between you and a lot of people IMO, not at bigotry. You have these very large, sweeping preconceived notions and approach much discussion here as if those preconceived notions are absolute truth.

 

[squistion]

But I am prejudiced against Trump supporters jon. I think they're low information. I think a lot of them are bigoted. I don't hate them but I don't much like them.

And there's a big difference between not liking a group based on what they think vs their ethnicity. I don't like Communists or Nazis or Islamists either. Am I bigoted for disliking these groups?

Eminence is the poster child for the former, SIDA! for the latter. Not a coincidence they have been the biggest supporters of Trump or Trump's ideas in the forum. Very telling that most of the conservatives/Republicans here don't share their enthusiasm for Trump, which to me is an indication that Trumps support in the polls among Republicans is mostly the Tea Party crowd which will not play well in the general election assuming Trump gets the nominee.

 

[jon_mx]

This has got to be bad for Hillary....

Philadelphia police: Attacker ‘tried to execute’ officer, pledged allegiance to the Islamic State

 

[RCon]

OK, here is my final attempt at compromise. Here's what I get:

1. All illegal immigrants already here who have not committed a felony can pay a fine (for breaking the law by coming here) and are given legal status. They will have all the rights of citizens except they will never be allowed to vote, and for the rest of their lives if they are found guilty of a felony they are deported. Naturally their children if born here are citizens subject to all laws and rights.

2. A guest worker program is established for those industries that need labor at below minimum wage. Guest workers at the end of their allotted stay have the right to stay and get a green card if they so choose.

3. Immigration laws should be liberalized to allow for poor people from Mexico and Latin America to "get in line."

Here's what I will give:

1. No citizenship, ever, for illegal immigrants.

2. Secure the borders by any reasonable financial means.

3. Deport any illegal who arrives here AFTER this program is in place.

4. Fine companies or persons who hire illegals after this program is in place.

We'll start with "what you get".

1. "All the rights of citizens" is kind of an issue. The one and only goal for "my side" in any immigration reform agreement is to ensure that the problem is not repeated. That means not rewarding people for illegally entering the country. In this case, you're suggesting that current illegals be allowed to receive welfare, foodstamps, Obamacare subsidies, Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, and other benefits, even if they're not working. That rewards them for breaking the law, which subsequently encourages others to break the same law.

2. Obviously, allowing foreign guest workers to compete in the labor market under different rules than Americans is a non-starter. If you want to reduce or eliminate minimum wage, be my guest, but it has to apply to everyone equally, and it really has nothing to do with an immigration reform proposal.

3. Sure.

With regard to "what you will give".

1. I'm not sure what this accomplishes, since you want them to receive all the benefits of being a citizen. Not to mention, illegals currently can't become citizens. In other words, "my side" already has this item, so you're not really giving anything up.

2. Meh. Fully securing the borders is a lost cause. Yeah, we need to spend money on it regardless, for national security reasons, but we both know it's not possible to patrol it with armed officers 24x7.

3. This is already the law. We don't enforce it, but you're not really giving anything new here.

4. This is also the law now, so you're not really giving anything new. That said, this is the only item where you're making an effort. However, the punishment needs to be brutal, like $100K or more per incident, to ensure that it doesn't happen.

All told, you're asking for quite a bit, but not offering anything new to "my side". That is, everything you're offering is something we already have.

 

[The Commish]

Rich, you're a quitter

I take it back

 

[SIDA!]

This has got to be bad for Hillary....

Philadelphia police: Attacker ‘tried to execute’ officer, pledged allegiance to the Islamic State

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/08/suspect-in-pa-cop-ambush-said-acted-in-name-islam-police-confirm.html?intcmp=hpbt4

The suspect's gun had been stolen from police in 2013, Commissioner Richard Ross said.

Surely, an executive order from Obama to take away guns from law enforcement is next right?

 

[timschochet]

OK, here is my final attempt at compromise. Here's what I get:

1. All illegal immigrants already here who have not committed a felony can pay a fine (for breaking the law by coming here) and are given legal status. They will have all the rights of citizens except they will never be allowed to vote, and for the rest of their lives if they are found guilty of a felony they are deported. Naturally their children if born here are citizens subject to all laws and rights.

2. A guest worker program is established for those industries that need labor at below minimum wage. Guest workers at the end of their allotted stay have the right to stay and get a green card if they so choose.

3. Immigration laws should be liberalized to allow for poor people from Mexico and Latin America to "get in line."

Here's what I will give:

1. No citizenship, ever, for illegal immigrants.

2. Secure the borders by any reasonable financial means.

3. Deport any illegal who arrives here AFTER this program is in place.

4. Fine companies or persons who hire illegals after this program is in place.

We'll start with "what you get".

1. "All the rights of citizens" is kind of an issue. The one and only goal for "my side" in any immigration reform agreement is to ensure that the problem is not repeated. That means not rewarding people for illegally entering the country. In this case, you're suggesting that current illegals be allowed to receive welfare, foodstamps, Obamacare subsidies, Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, and other benefits, even if they're not working. That rewards them for breaking the law, which subsequently encourages others to break the same law.

2. Obviously, allowing foreign guest workers to compete in the labor market under different rules than Americans is a non-starter. If you want to reduce or eliminate minimum wage, be my guest, but it has to apply to everyone equally, and it really has nothing to do with an immigration reform proposal.

3. Sure.

With regard to "what you will give".

1. I'm not sure what this accomplishes, since you want them to receive all the benefits of being a citizen. Not to mention, illegals currently can't become citizens. In other words, "my side" already has this item, so you're not really giving anything up.

2. Meh. Fully securing the borders is a lost cause. Yeah, we need to spend money on it regardless, for national security reasons, but we both know it's not possible to patrol it with armed officers 24x7.

3. This is already the law. We don't enforce it, but you're not really giving anything new here.

4. This is also the law now, so you're not really giving anything new. That said, this is the only item where you're making an effort. However, the punishment needs to be brutal, like $100K or more per incident, to ensure that it doesn't happen.

All told, you're asking for quite a bit, but not offering anything new to "my side". That is, everything you're offering is something we already have.

Well I can't say I didn't try.

I've changed my mind. I like you Rich, I enjoy talking to you and I admire your thought process very much, but it's obvious to me now that we are NEVER going to come to an agreement on this issue. I went as far as I could go. That's fine. We're just to far apart. Therefore the solution (for my "side" ) is to defeat your side at the polls and push what I want through without your consent. Unfortunately right now your side is winning.

 

[timschochet]

This has got to be bad for Hillary....

Philadelphia police: Attacker ‘tried to execute’ officer, pledged allegiance to the Islamic State

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/08/suspect-in-pa-cop-ambush-said-acted-in-name-islam-police-confirm.html?intcmp=hpbt4

The suspect's gun had been stolen from police in 2013, Commissioner Richard Ross said.

Surely, an executive order from Obama to take away guns from law enforcement is next right?

Is this in the right thread?

 

[SIDA!]

This has got to be bad for Hillary....

Philadelphia police: Attacker ‘tried to execute’ officer, pledged allegiance to the Islamic State

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/08/suspect-in-pa-cop-ambush-said-acted-in-name-islam-police-confirm.html?intcmp=hpbt4

The suspect's gun had been stolen from police in 2013, Commissioner Richard Ross said.

Surely, an executive order from Obama to take away guns from law enforcement is next right?

Is this in the right thread?

Yeah. Just a tangentially related point given the recent executive order.

 

[jon_mx]

This has got to be bad for Hillary....

Philadelphia police: Attacker tried to execute officer, pledged allegiance to the Islamic State

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/08/suspect-in-pa-cop-ambush-said-acted-in-name-islam-police-confirm.html?intcmp=hpbt4

The suspect's gun had been stolen from police in 2013, Commissioner Richard Ross said.

Surely, an executive order from Obama to take away guns from law enforcement is next right?

Is this in the right thread?

I meant to post in refuge thread.

 

[RCon]

OK, here is my final attempt at compromise. Here's what I get:

1. All illegal immigrants already here who have not committed a felony can pay a fine (for breaking the law by coming here) and are given legal status. They will have all the rights of citizens except they will never be allowed to vote, and for the rest of their lives if they are found guilty of a felony they are deported. Naturally their children if born here are citizens subject to all laws and rights.

2. A guest worker program is established for those industries that need labor at below minimum wage. Guest workers at the end of their allotted stay have the right to stay and get a green card if they so choose.

3. Immigration laws should be liberalized to allow for poor people from Mexico and Latin America to "get in line."

Here's what I will give:

1. No citizenship, ever, for illegal immigrants.

2. Secure the borders by any reasonable financial means.

3. Deport any illegal who arrives here AFTER this program is in place.

4. Fine companies or persons who hire illegals after this program is in place.

We'll start with "what you get".

1. "All the rights of citizens" is kind of an issue. The one and only goal for "my side" in any immigration reform agreement is to ensure that the problem is not repeated. That means not rewarding people for illegally entering the country. In this case, you're suggesting that current illegals be allowed to receive welfare, foodstamps, Obamacare subsidies, Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, and other benefits, even if they're not working. That rewards them for breaking the law, which subsequently encourages others to break the same law.

2. Obviously, allowing foreign guest workers to compete in the labor market under different rules than Americans is a non-starter. If you want to reduce or eliminate minimum wage, be my guest, but it has to apply to everyone equally, and it really has nothing to do with an immigration reform proposal.

3. Sure.

With regard to "what you will give".

1. I'm not sure what this accomplishes, since you want them to receive all the benefits of being a citizen. Not to mention, illegals currently can't become citizens. In other words, "my side" already has this item, so you're not really giving anything up.

2. Meh. Fully securing the borders is a lost cause. Yeah, we need to spend money on it regardless, for national security reasons, but we both know it's not possible to patrol it with armed officers 24x7.

3. This is already the law. We don't enforce it, but you're not really giving anything new here.

4. This is also the law now, so you're not really giving anything new. That said, this is the only item where you're making an effort. However, the punishment needs to be brutal, like $100K or more per incident, to ensure that it doesn't happen.

All told, you're asking for quite a bit, but not offering anything new to "my side". That is, everything you're offering is something we already have.

Well I can't say I didn't try.

I've changed my mind. I like you Rich, I enjoy talking to you and I admire your thought process very much, but it's obvious to me now that we are NEVER going to come to an agreement on this issue. I went as far as I could go. That's fine. We're just to far apart. Therefore the solution (for my "side" ) is to defeat your side at the polls and push what I want through without your consent. Unfortunately right now your side is winning.

You went as far as you could go? You didn't actually go anywhere. Please tell me what you offered in this compromise, that I don't already have. Seriously, what is "my side" gaining is your offer?

I'm really trying to understand your thought process here. What do you think is the compromise here? I understand there are certain things you don't want to give, but that's the point of compromise. You have to give something worth my while for me to want to make a deal.

 

[Ratbert]

How about we start with enforcing the laws we have now. No reason to pass new laws that won't be enforced.

I'm all for legal immigration. Rewarding people for breaking the law seems off to me. If you want to allow refugees in or to stay, take that up with congress.

 

[timschochet]

OK, here is my final attempt at compromise. Here's what I get:

1. All illegal immigrants already here who have not committed a felony can pay a fine (for breaking the law by coming here) and are given legal status. They will have all the rights of citizens except they will never be allowed to vote, and for the rest of their lives if they are found guilty of a felony they are deported. Naturally their children if born here are citizens subject to all laws and rights.

2. A guest worker program is established for those industries that need labor at below minimum wage. Guest workers at the end of their allotted stay have the right to stay and get a green card if they so choose.

3. Immigration laws should be liberalized to allow for poor people from Mexico and Latin America to "get in line."

Here's what I will give:

1. No citizenship, ever, for illegal immigrants.

2. Secure the borders by any reasonable financial means.

3. Deport any illegal who arrives here AFTER this program is in place.

4. Fine companies or persons who hire illegals after this program is in place.

We'll start with "what you get".

1. "All the rights of citizens" is kind of an issue. The one and only goal for "my side" in any immigration reform agreement is to ensure that the problem is not repeated. That means not rewarding people for illegally entering the country. In this case, you're suggesting that current illegals be allowed to receive welfare, foodstamps, Obamacare subsidies, Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, and other benefits, even if they're not working. That rewards them for breaking the law, which subsequently encourages others to break the same law.

2. Obviously, allowing foreign guest workers to compete in the labor market under different rules than Americans is a non-starter. If you want to reduce or eliminate minimum wage, be my guest, but it has to apply to everyone equally, and it really has nothing to do with an immigration reform proposal.

3. Sure.

With regard to "what you will give".

1. I'm not sure what this accomplishes, since you want them to receive all the benefits of being a citizen. Not to mention, illegals currently can't become citizens. In other words, "my side" already has this item, so you're not really giving anything up.

2. Meh. Fully securing the borders is a lost cause. Yeah, we need to spend money on it regardless, for national security reasons, but we both know it's not possible to patrol it with armed officers 24x7.

3. This is already the law. We don't enforce it, but you're not really giving anything new here.

4. This is also the law now, so you're not really giving anything new. That said, this is the only item where you're making an effort. However, the punishment needs to be brutal, like $100K or more per incident, to ensure that it doesn't happen.

All told, you're asking for quite a bit, but not offering anything new to "my side". That is, everything you're offering is something we already have.

Well I can't say I didn't try. I've changed my mind. I like you Rich, I enjoy talking to you and I admire your thought process very much, but it's obvious to me now that we are NEVER going to come to an agreement on this issue. I went as far as I could go. That's fine. We're just to far apart. Therefore the solution (for my "side" ) is to defeat your side at the polls and push what I want through without your consent. Unfortunately right now your side is winning.

You went as far as you could go? You didn't actually go anywhere. Please tell me what you offered in this compromise, that I don't already have. Seriously, what is "my side" gaining is your offer?I'm really trying to understand your thought process here. What do you think is the compromise here? I understand there are certain things you don't want to give, but that's the point of compromise. You have to give something worth my while for me to want to make a deal.

Youre kidding right? Everything I said I would give I don't want to. I want amnesty right now plus citizenship. I don't want tighter borders. I don't want to deport anybody, and I certainly don't want any fines on companies. Yeah I know that's the law now but we don't enforce it and if I had my way we never will. So I'm compromising on all that stuff. But it's no use.

 

[The Commish]

OK, here is my final attempt at compromise. Here's what I get:

1. All illegal immigrants already here who have not committed a felony can pay a fine (for breaking the law by coming here) and are given legal status. They will have all the rights of citizens except they will never be allowed to vote, and for the rest of their lives if they are found guilty of a felony they are deported. Naturally their children if born here are citizens subject to all laws and rights.

2. A guest worker program is established for those industries that need labor at below minimum wage. Guest workers at the end of their allotted stay have the right to stay and get a green card if they so choose.

3. Immigration laws should be liberalized to allow for poor people from Mexico and Latin America to "get in line."

Here's what I will give:

1. No citizenship, ever, for illegal immigrants.

2. Secure the borders by any reasonable financial means.

3. Deport any illegal who arrives here AFTER this program is in place.

4. Fine companies or persons who hire illegals after this program is in place.

We'll start with "what you get".

1. "All the rights of citizens" is kind of an issue. The one and only goal for "my side" in any immigration reform agreement is to ensure that the problem is not repeated. That means not rewarding people for illegally entering the country. In this case, you're suggesting that current illegals be allowed to receive welfare, foodstamps, Obamacare subsidies, Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, and other benefits, even if they're not working. That rewards them for breaking the law, which subsequently encourages others to break the same law.

2. Obviously, allowing foreign guest workers to compete in the labor market under different rules than Americans is a non-starter. If you want to reduce or eliminate minimum wage, be my guest, but it has to apply to everyone equally, and it really has nothing to do with an immigration reform proposal.

3. Sure.

With regard to "what you will give".

1. I'm not sure what this accomplishes, since you want them to receive all the benefits of being a citizen. Not to mention, illegals currently can't become citizens. In other words, "my side" already has this item, so you're not really giving anything up.

2. Meh. Fully securing the borders is a lost cause. Yeah, we need to spend money on it regardless, for national security reasons, but we both know it's not possible to patrol it with armed officers 24x7.

3. This is already the law. We don't enforce it, but you're not really giving anything new here.

4. This is also the law now, so you're not really giving anything new. That said, this is the only item where you're making an effort. However, the punishment needs to be brutal, like $100K or more per incident, to ensure that it doesn't happen.

All told, you're asking for quite a bit, but not offering anything new to "my side". That is, everything you're offering is something we already have.

Well I can't say I didn't try. I've changed my mind. I like you Rich, I enjoy talking to you and I admire your thought process very much, but it's obvious to me now that we are NEVER going to come to an agreement on this issue. I went as far as I could go. That's fine. We're just to far apart. Therefore the solution (for my "side" ) is to defeat your side at the polls and push what I want through without your consent. Unfortunately right now your side is winning.

You went as far as you could go? You didn't actually go anywhere. Please tell me what you offered in this compromise, that I don't already have. Seriously, what is "my side" gaining is your offer?I'm really trying to understand your thought process here. What do you think is the compromise here? I understand there are certain things you don't want to give, but that's the point of compromise. You have to give something worth my while for me to want to make a deal.

Youre kidding right? Everything I said I would give I don't want to. I want amnesty right now plus citizenship. I don't want tighter borders. I don't want to deport anybody, and I certainly don't want any fines on companies. Yeah I know that's the law now but we don't enforce it and if I had my way we never will. So I'm compromising on all that stuff. But it's no use.

His point is, he already has it. It's not yours to give. You may not have liked giving it up, but that doesn't change the fact that you did.

 

[timschochet]

He doesn't have it. It may be the law but it's not being enforced. If he wants it enforced he has to give something up. Otherwise he can have all the meaningless laws he wants.

 

[SIDA!]

Lmao

 

[timschochet]

Lmao

Hey you can laugh all you want but there's 12 million illegals here and they're not going anywhere. Your laws are meaningless.

 

[SIDA!]

Lmao

Hey you can laugh all you want but there's 12 million illegals here and they're not going anywhere. Your laws are meaningless.

It is so cute that you think that and at the same time believe my guns are going anywhere.

ETA: can we change the number to something more realistic? we have been told that there are 12 million illegals for a decade. I think the number has gone up by now.

 

[RBM]

Lmao

Hey you can laugh all you want but there's 12 million illegals here and they're not going anywhere. Your laws are meaningless.

Any party plans for the Trump round up kick off??

 

[dparker713]

He doesn't have it. It may be the law but it's not being enforced. If he wants it enforced he has to give something up. Otherwise he can have all the meaningless laws he wants.

Actually, all that would need to happen would be to elect a President that shares his views. The president could then change the allocation of resources in the federal government and enforce the laws on the books.

 

[RCon]

When your only offer is to enforce laws that already exist, my reaction is going to be:

1. You're not willing to give anything meaningful.

2. If I can't trust you to enforce laws now, why would I trust you to enforce the same laws in the future?

Sorry, but those reactions are entirely rational on my part.

 

[RCon]

Tell you what, timschochet, let's make a different deal. I offer to let you keep half your take-home pay, in return for giving me the other half. Seems pretty fair; I really want all of your money, so this is a pretty good compromise.

 

[timschochet]

Lmao

Hey you can laugh all you want but there's 12 million illegals here and they're not going anywhere. Your laws are meaningless.

It is so cute that you think that and at the same time believe my guns are going anywhere.

ETA: can we change the number to something more realistic? we have been told that there are 12 million illegals for a decade. I think the number has gone up by now.

I don't believe your guns are going anywhere. You may have me confused on that with somebody else.

 

[timschochet]

Tell you what, timschochet, let's make a different deal. I offer to let you keep half your take-home pay, in return for giving me the other half. Seems pretty fair; I really want all of your money, so this is a pretty good compromise.

If I was forced to accept year after year after year of you taking 75% of my take home pay, and I was used to it, and there was nothing I could do about it, then 50% would seem like a reasonable compromise.

But the main problem with your analogy, of course, is that illegal immigrants take NOTHING from you. They give.

 

[SIDA!]

Tell you what, timschochet, let's make a different deal. I offer to let you keep half your take-home pay, in return for giving me the other half. Seems pretty fair; I really want all of your money, so this is a pretty good compromise.

But the main problem with your analogy, of course, is that illegal immigrants take NOTHING from you. They give.

Please stop with this bull####. It is not true and it makes absolutely zero sense to argue that it is true.

P.S. I stand corrected on the guns. I thought you were a gun grabber but I guess I had you confused with someone else.