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Big Ben (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jwvdcw
- Start date
No offense meant whatsoever, but you sound as if you're going only be stats and you havn't actually watched him play. If you've watched him play, you've seen him be dominant. He is routinely hounded by the rush, yet he is tough to bring down and makes great throws. Just because his team gets up big and then doesn't have to pass- that hurts his stats a little, but don't hold that against him.link to more thoughts
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
The mighty Craig Krenzel is 2-0 now.
Not that he'd beat out Roth but maybe worth mentioning here...McGahee.Has any one guy (outside of Pitt)turned a team around so quickly like him? They have a very solid D and as long as he runs well, they have a good shot of still making something of this season. I would've thought they were "done" but....
Well, the top 2 guys lost...and guess what? Big Ben is moving up to #1 on my list! I hate to say 'I told you so', but I told you so! A lot of changes this week:1.Big Ben2.Tiki Barber3.TO4.Tom Brady5.Drew Brees6.Payton Manning7.Curtis Martin8.Priest Holmes9.Donovan McNabb10.Jake Plummer
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
I stand corrected. I should have remarked as such, he actually won me some money the last two weeks. The guy is just smart and somehow finds a way to win games. As soon as he took over, I started betting Chicago. Keep it up Craig !The mighty Craig Krenzel is 2-0 now.
week 1: 242 yards, 5 TDs, 0 INT, 147 QB rating, team wins
week 2: 343-1-1, 95 rating, loss against the best team in the league
week 3: 360-2-0, 127 rating, win
bye
week 5: 396-5-0, 128 rating, win
week 6: 425-5-2, 125 rating, win
week 7: 183-1-0, 103 rating, win
week 8: 231-1-2, 60 rating, loss
week 9: 169-1-0, (nfl.com doesn't have his rating up yet on his profile), loss
*Bolded weeks are games played without Moss(well he was on the field to extend his streak for some, but he never even caught a pass, so it was pretty much without him)*
Hendo, care to tell me again how Culpepper was going to break all of those records and be MVP? Tell me again how its not just because of Moss?
The stats are making your argument look foolish. Hes is now 1-2 without Moss, hasn't thrown 2 TD passes in a game without Moss, and is putting up Michael Vick passing yardage without Moss! Hes is the very definition of an average QB.
Oh and btw....week 9 was against the INDIANAPOLIS COLTS in a game in which the Vikings were down early so they needed to throw to catch up!!!! If you're ever going to put up huge stats its going to be in that situation!!
week 2: 343-1-1, 95 rating, loss against the best team in the league
week 3: 360-2-0, 127 rating, win
bye
week 5: 396-5-0, 128 rating, win
week 6: 425-5-2, 125 rating, win
week 7: 183-1-0, 103 rating, win
week 8: 231-1-2, 60 rating, loss
week 9: 169-1-0, (nfl.com doesn't have his rating up yet on his profile), loss
*Bolded weeks are games played without Moss(well he was on the field to extend his streak for some, but he never even caught a pass, so it was pretty much without him)*
Hendo, care to tell me again how Culpepper was going to break all of those records and be MVP? Tell me again how its not just because of Moss?
The stats are making your argument look foolish. Hes is now 1-2 without Moss, hasn't thrown 2 TD passes in a game without Moss, and is putting up Michael Vick passing yardage without Moss! Hes is the very definition of an average QB.
Oh and btw....week 9 was against the INDIANAPOLIS COLTS in a game in which the Vikings were down early so they needed to throw to catch up!!!! If you're ever going to put up huge stats its going to be in that situation!!
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I'm the only one that thinks that?Take a look at this very thread:-I posted my top 10 MVP list a few weeks ago:1.Terrell Owens2.Tiki Barber3.Ben Roethlisberger4.Tom Brady5.Curtis Martin6.Payton Manning7.Daunte Culpepper8.Donovan McNabb9.Priest Holmes10.Byron Leftwich -A lot of people agreed, but the only complaints I got were that I had Culpepper too high!Scooterg61 wrote:"what is culp doing the last 2 weeks without moss??..nadda.. cpepp out of MVP for right now.. all goes to manning or priest right now..but the key word was big ben deserves SOME consideration..hell if mcnair can share last year..big ben gets some kudos for sure "Evilgrin72 wrote:'One thought : I'm beginning to think Moss may supplant Culpepper in a lot of voters minds. I think he's their MVP, and if Culpepper isn't the MVP on his own team, I don't think he should considered for league-wide honors. "Banger wrote:"Considering how the Vikes perform with/without Moss, I think he should get some consideration, maybe in place of Culpepper. Without Moss, Culpeppper, the passing attack, running game, etc. has looked rather ordinary the past few weeks. Moss's impact on that team is enormous and makes their whole offense work. "This is all on page 3 of this thread, which inspired me to take Pepper off my list:'"You guys are right about Moss/Pepper...and I also think Priest was a little low. My new list:1.Terrell Owens2.Tiki Barber3.Ben Roethlisberger4.Tom Brady5.Curtis Martin6.Payton Manning7.Priest Holmes8.Donovan McNabb9.Randy Moss10.Byron Leftwich "So, tell me again how I'm the only one who thinks this way about Culpepper.classictoo bad your the only one to think that and well.... how good Pinner is
Hendo
Footballguy
huh? you litteraly make me laugh with this stuff you kno wthat? throwing 84% and a TD with no turnovers isnt average. who calls the plays? Culpepper? they had him throw a total of 2 passing attempts the whole 1st half. tell u what u tell me what other QB can do that without Moss. hes had 1 truely bad game without Moss. the stats he trew up last night and in the Tenesse game are pretty close to the kid your pimiping for MVP. without Moss cripples his fantasy success nothing more.
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
Hendo, welcome back ! I like the new avatar. Nice work also on the top QB Dynasty Ratings board - really dug the commentary.
BIG BEN for MVP. Still ROFL ???
Culpepper played a strong game again last night, but even you have to admit at this point, he is an ENTIRELY different fantasy QB without Randy Moss.
BIG BEN for MVP. Still ROFL ???
Culpepper played a strong game again last night, but even you have to admit at this point, he is an ENTIRELY different fantasy QB without Randy Moss.
Hendo
Footballguy
ya i agree, i am still a little baffled they only attempted to pass 2 times in the entire 1st half lastnight... the play calling alone has changed Culpepper with Moss not there. when they did pass he didnt disapoint. but were talking for fantasy now in real NFL time hes actualy played 2 1/2 games without Moss efficiently. aside from the NYG game he has thrown over 80% and kept his team in there for the wins. how jwvcd can still think he is below average is just beyond me... well no it isnt he thinks Artose Pinner is god
i'm just waiting for him to credit the Matt Birk fumble last night on Daunte to seal the deal 
jurb26
Footballguy
Just want to make sure that you are aware of something here. Indy has the WORST, I repeat WORST pass D in the league and it is not even close. Yet were able to hold Cpep to by all means a sub par performance (stat wise). Heck even after the game all the guys on ESPN were talking about how GOOD the Indy D played vs. Minn. For some reason, I don't think they were reffering to the 138 yds and 5.8 per carry Minn put up on the ground either. Cpep showed nothing last night vs. that pathetic D to PROVE he can do it with out Moss. He palyed efficient and well IMO, but not good enough to elivate his team to a win vs. the WORST passing D in the league. Fact is he only amassed 170 yds through the air vs. a team that averages nearly 290 per game.The bottom line is that if you take Moss out of the equation for the Minn O, you are looking at a completly different team. This is not a knock on Cpep, just a fact.ya i agree, i am still a little baffled they only attempted to pass 2 times in the entire 1st half lastnight... the play calling alone has changed Culpepper with Moss not there. when they did pass he didnt disapoint. but were talking for fantasy now in real NFL time hes actualy played 2 1/2 games without Moss efficiently. aside from the NYG game he has thrown over 80% and kept his team in there for the wins. how jwvcd can still think he is below average is just beyond me... well no it isnt he thinks Artose Pinner is god
Hendo
Footballguy
quite aware of that Jurb but what exactly is a sub par performance stat wise? McKinney couldnt block Freeney at all to begin with last night... its not Culpepper doing the play calling so the stats he did put up last night were from the entire 2nd half of the game. they attempted to pass 2 times the ENTIRE 1st half of that game. that to me is REALLY bad game calling and ball management. its nice to run the ball effectively but u have to show something for that effort and all they had to show for it was 3 points in the 1st half. i am really confused by when people say he had a below stat line... yes for fantasy of course. but he is not the one calling the plays. when he was let lose in the 2nd half he threw 87%... thats really almost unbelieveable. he did muster 169 yards in the 2nd half i think 11 of that was in the 1st half. posting also a 121.3 QB rating as well. Culpepper gave his team a chance to win lastnight... but this is not the stuff we read when Moss isnt there...
hmm i strongly disagree. he did that in 1 half of football when Tice realised how the game was going. they did the same thing against Tenesse as well but with more success averaging 6.9 on the run. Moss alters the game plan of course a great WR liek him should. but he is not what makes Culpepper.
it is a fact your right but that isnt a knock on Culpepper either. he isnt the coach and he doesnt run the game plan's. that was a highly poorly executed game from Tice and the entire Minnesota org. they even miffed on utilizing the clock properly. the end drive of the 1st they shoulda scored a TD yet settled for a field goal cause Tice clearly has no clue of clock management. Daunte wanted to call a time out as quickly as possible looking at the sidelines but didnt get the signal to do so... signs like that will cost a head coach his job... ask marty morningwhig
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jurb26
Footballguy
Edited version:BreesAlexanderBarberManningReedBig BenHolmesCpepOwensMcNabb1. Cpep, on pace for well over 5000/502. Moss, on pace for well over 20 TDs, maybe 303. Manning, well being Manning during the reg season4. Brady, you can't argue with the streak and the Ws5. McNabb, putting it together better tahn anyone could have hoped with his new toys on O.Edit, yes Big Ben is in my top 10 right now. Prob around 9 or 10 though. Others to be mentioned:OwnesMartinCarrKerneyE.ReedC.BrownLeftyBarberAlexanderI agree someone on Den, but its unclear as to who just yet. Reuben is looking like a nice choice right about now though.
jurb26
Footballguy
You seem to be missing the fact that with out Moss out there opening the field up for the other WRs and whoever else that may catch the ball. Minn has to DRASTICALLY change their play calling. This is the point! I'm not saying Cpep is a bad QB, I don't think he is with or with out Moss. Moss though allows him a great luxury though that IMO he will not accomplish on his own and that being super stud like. This is an O that was designed and fine-tooned for Moss' out of this world skill set. Of course the game plan changes with him out. You call this bad coaching or play calling though? What do you expect, for them to just chuck the ball down field as if nothing has changed? There is a very big change and that change is that Moss is no longer forcing constant double and sometimes triple coverage to create space for others in the passing game. To not adapt the game plan to this would be a huge mistake, not the other way around which you seem to want to imply. You ask how was it a below avg game stat wise, but the answer is simple and already addressed. Indy gives up on avg: 290 yds and 2 tds thru the air. Minn/Cpep only amassed 170 and 1. How is this anything but bellow avg?Again, I am not saying that Cpep is a bad QB, cause I by no means believe that to be true. However, he is a much different QB (and Minn team) with out the most dangerous offensive weapon in the game today on the field. This seems more to me like common sense than any kind of knock on Cpep to me though.quite aware of that Jurb but what exactly is a sub par performance stat wise? McKinney couldnt block Freeney at all to begin with last night... its not Culpepper doing the play calling so the stats he did put up last night were from the entire 2nd half of the game. they attempted to pass 2 times the ENTIRE 1st half of that game. that to me is REALLY bad game callin gand ball management. its nice to run the ball effectively but u have to show something for that effort and all they had to show for it was 3 points in the 1st half. i am really confused by when people say he had a below stat line... yes for fantasy of course. but he is not the one calling the plays. when he was let lose in the 2nd hald he threw 87%... thats really almost unbelieveable. he did muster 169 yards in the 2nd half i think 11 of that was in the 1st half. posting also a 121.3 QB rating as well. Culpepper gave his team a chance to win lastnight... but this is not the stuff we read when Moss isnt there...hmm i strongly disagree. he did that in 1 half of football when Tice realised how the game was going. they did the same thing against Tenesse as well but with more success averaging 6.9 on the run. Moss alters the game plan of course a great WR liek him should. but he is not what makes Culpepper.it is a fact your right but that isnt a knock on Culpepper either. he isnt the coach and he doesnt run the game plan's. that was a highly poorly executed game from Tice and the entire Minnesota org. they even miffed on utilizing the clock properly. the end drive of the 1st they shoulda scored a TD yet settled for a field goal cause Tice clearly has no clue of clock management. Daunte wanted to call a time out as quickly as possible looking at the sidelines but didnt get the signal to do so... signs like that will cost a head coach his job... ask marty morningwhig
you + are = you'rePinner has nothing to do with this argument. Why do you keep bringing that up?I still believe that Pinner is better than KJ, but even if I am wrong on that, what on earth does that have to do with Culpepper? It is possible, you know, to be wrong about one thing and right about another.yup... your rightplease enlighten me Pinner supporter
great posting.Culpepper isn't a bad QB. He can have a high completion percentage and limit mistakes(which was previously the big knock on him). He has improved a lot. However, nothing he does without Moss shows me that hes one of the better QBs in the league.Just want to make sure that you are aware of something here. Indy has the WORST, I repeat WORST pass D in the league and it is not even close. Yet were able to hold Cpep to by all means a sub par performance (stat wise). Heck even after the game all the guys on ESPN were talking about how GOOD the Indy D played vs. Minn. For some reason, I don't think they were reffering to the 138 yds and 5.8 per carry Minn put up on the ground either. Cpep showed nothing last night vs. that pathetic D to PROVE he can do it with out Moss. He palyed efficient and well IMO, but not good enough to elivate his team to a win vs. the WORST passing D in the league. Fact is he only amassed 170 yds through the air vs. a team that averages nearly 290 per game.The bottom line is that if you take Moss out of the equation for the Minn O, you are looking at a completly different team. This is not a knock on Cpep, just a fact.ya i agree, i am still a little baffled they only attempted to pass 2 times in the entire 1st half lastnight... the play calling alone has changed Culpepper with Moss not there. when they did pass he didnt disapoint. but were talking for fantasy now in real NFL time hes actualy played 2 1/2 games without Moss efficiently. aside from the NYG game he has thrown over 80% and kept his team in there for the wins. how jwvcd can still think he is below average is just beyond me... well no it isnt he thinks Artose Pinner is god
Hendo
Footballguy
its called my personal abreviation. and pinner comment has me taking anything u post with a grain of salt.you + are = you'rePinner has nothing to do with this argument. Why do you keep bringing that up?I still believe that Pinner is better than KJ, but even if I am wrong on that, what on earth does that have to do with Culpepper? It is possible, you know, to be wrong about one thing and right about another.yup... your right
But Pinner has nothing to do with this!So because I think Pinner is better than KJ(when the stats are almost identical) that makes you discredit everything I say?? Thats absurd. Especially when many here in this thread are also telling you that you're wrong(see my post a few posts back where I quoted everyone).You're using faulty logic...You're using Ad Hominem. Irving Copi defines the the fallacy of Ad Hominem as: "A fallacious attack in which the thrust is directed, not at a conclusion, but at the person who asserts or defends it." To put it in simpler terms: You attack me(based upon my Pinner argument) instead of actually providing an argument for your case about Culpepper.its called my personal abreviation. and pinner comment has me taking anything u post with a grain of salt.you + are = you'rePinner has nothing to do with this argument. Why do you keep bringing that up?I still believe that Pinner is better than KJ, but even if I am wrong on that, what on earth does that have to do with Culpepper? It is possible, you know, to be wrong about one thing and right about another.yup... your right
djcolts
Footballguy
Merrill Hoge named Culpepper his mid-season MVP. But, let's keep the media in perspective. They want to create stories and want to be shown as smart by coming up with arguments for stuff. So we see arguments for Brees, Barber, Culpepper, Big Ben, Owens, Manning, etc. It probably will be pretty simple when the actual vote comes around. WRs never win the award, RBs have to be off the charts incredible to win the award. So...If Manning approaches or breaks Marino's TD record and the Colts make the playoffs, he'll win.If Big Ben goes 12-2 or better as a starter, he'll win.If both happens, we'll have a close vote. If neither happens - someone will emerge.
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AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Vic Carucci of NFL.com calls Ben the MVP at the halfway point. He gives Culp an honorable mention along with Peyton, TO, and Brees.http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7874111
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
He's gotta be in the discussion at this point (Manning will win it, though). I no longer care what the detractors say.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
In the discussion...but what does that mean if we all agree he has no chance?If the voting happened today:1) Manning2) McNabb3) Brees4) Brady5) Big BenRemember when Tiki Barber was in this conversation?
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
I'd go :ManningMcNabbBrees/Roethlisberger (tie) :copout:BradyWoodrow, I do remember when Tiki was in the conversation. Gosh, those were carefree days weren't they? Filled with hope and youthful exuberance, some might call it naivete........:longtimeagogalaxyfarfaraway:
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Hey Evil,So we're almost in agreement. I put Brady ahead based more on how I think the voting would go. I think when you're coming off your 2nd Bowl title and leading your team to a 14-2, 15-1 record...voters will find a spot for him in the top 4 or 5 over a rookie QB that's passing for less than 170 per game. Not saying he should get more votes than Big Ben, but I think he absolutely will.
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
I'll agree with you there, however, if he was in the NFC, he'd probably get in right behind McNabb.
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
Can't argue that. The "rookie bias" if it exists is going to work against him as well.Really, what it boils down to is that this is Manning's award and no-one is going to touch him after he breaks Marino's record. If (when) he throws his 50th TD pass, they might rename the award after him. At this point, I'd just like to see Roethlisberger's name somewhere in the mix to validate my contention that this team is not winning games in spite of his play, as some of the uninformed masses have been proclaiming."Everything else is cream cheese" - Coach Fenstock (Teen Wolf)
Is that your list or how you think it would happen? Either way, pretty good list. Mine:What I think it should be:1.Manning2.TO3.McNabb4.Big Ben5.Brees6.Brady7.T Barber8.Tomlinson9.A Gates10.Ed ReedWhat I think it will be:1.Manning2.McNabb3.Brees4.Culpepper5.Brady6.TO7.Plummer8.Big Ben9.Barber10.Tomlinson
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Evilgrin72
Footballguy
If he hadn't spiked the ball to stop the clock for the final FG, would his rating have been 158.1?
bryhamm
Footballguy
If he hadn't spiked the ball to stop the clock for the final FG, would his rating have been 158.1?
He would have had the perfect 158.3 without the spike. He was 14/17 for 221 with 2 TDs and 0 INTs. The only "category" that he did not have the perfect 2.375 in was "% of TD passes". Instead he had 2.352. If he would have been 14/16 with the same numbers, then he gets the 2.375 in that category and the overall 158.3.
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
D'oh !!!!!!!!If he hadn't spiked the ball to stop the clock for the final FG, would his rating have been 158.1?
Wow!I know that us FFers are more focused on yards and TDs, but thats just incredible.Honestly, I think he may belong even higher than #4 now. He has played as well as anyone(even Manning) imo.If he hadn't spiked the ball to stop the clock for the final FG, would his rating have been 158.1?
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
I'd be thrilled if he finished in the top 3 as a rookie.
Evilgrin72
Footballguy
As many times as guys like you keep posting this.....
