Big Ben (1 Viewer)

[TheLaw]

Was just quoting more-or-less directly from both the ESPN and FOX radio post game shows, both of which related the story as I did. Of course, it's not like Madden or Cope to overdramatize things...

Of course not, they are both the epitome of calm, rational, objective reporting.

Am I the only person in Pittsburgh who hates Myron Cope?? He has been especially horrible this year IMO.

Cope has had health problems and he isn't as sharp as he used to be. It's time for him to retire.

But other than this year, you HATE him? Blasphemy!

yoi and double yoi

I just think he babbles and really doenst know what he is talking about. I dont like most sportscasters to be honest, but there is no love lost here on Cope. I know some people who turn the volume off on their TV and put on Cope . . . I am not one of these people.

 

[Metallurgist]

But Myron can sure sing that old school song he made up; one line in which goes something like this: "Bernie Kosar -- Hit em with a crow bar"Classic Myron...As you were. :stillers:

 

[jwvdcw]

I'd put Drew Brees on that list ahead of Leftwich.

He was on my original list...so just so you know- hes either 11th or 12th, so I agreee with you pretty much.

 

[jwvdcw]

i'm sorry but most of this thread is a joke... jw if u really dont think Culpepper is a good QB and only is cause he feeds off Moss then revert your attention to what he did last game with 1/2 without him still rolling up #'s. its so funny that Culpepper doesnt get his "due" in a so called "shark" forum. now Culpepper is only good cause Moss and he swouldnt even be top 10 now if he didnt have him     

How has he looked the past two games without Moss?How good did Gus Frerrotte look when he played the past few years with Moss in the lineup? Gus Frerotte!!Moss makes that team.

u really need to learn more of the sport then watchin git on the boob tube pinner lover. the last 2 games other then last night without Moss Culpepper was fantastic. he wasnt Fantasy Fantastic against Tenesse but efficient and lead his team to the win as they grinded out 6.9 a carry on the ground agains tthem no need to throw. i'll let u pick on thi sgame cause the whole team deserved it they played liek crap but if u think your gonna sit there and use this like Culpepper is horrible u will be proven wrong.

Moss played the entire first half of two games ago.Last week, Culpepper played well, but didn't put up any great numbers at all....if he had a performance like that every week, then he wouldn't be in any MVP talks.And he was absolutely horrible yesterday. And you said yourself...the entire offense was. The Giants knew that Moss wasn't healthy, unlike the Titans last week who still gameplanned to face him. And the Vikings are nothing better than a 5-11 team without Moss.This might sound like hyperbole, but Moss might have a legit chance at being considered one of the greatest players in the history of the NFL. You cannot underestimate his importance.You still have never addressed my point about scrubs like Frerotte, George, etc. putting up pro bowl caliber numbers in that offense...any decent QB will put put up those numbers with Moss.

 

[jwvdcw]

Can the Steelers offensive line win the MVP? They are the main reason the Steelers are 6-1 right now.

You're a Steelers homer, so I take it that you watch more games than I do...but from what I've seen, Big Ben is often running for his life, avoiding sacks, and making perfect throws with multiple defenders drapped all over him.

 

[Hendo]

Moss played the entire first half of two games ago.

the Culpepper hit his WR's all over the field the other half.

Last week, Culpepper played well, but didn't put up any great numbers at all....if he had a performance like that every week, then he wouldn't be in any MVP talks.

u mean sorta like Roethlisberger in his 5 games.

This might sound like hyperbole, but Moss might have a legit chance at being considered one of the greatest players in the history of the NFL. You cannot underestimate his importance.

nope agreed, in my eyes he is the best talent to play the position and some day might surpass Rice. much like he had Montanya, Young ect.

You still have never addressed my point about scrubs like Frerotte, George, etc. putting up pro bowl caliber numbers in that offense...any decent QB will put put up those numbers with Moss.

cause they didnt have a gameplan all they did was do the chuck and throw. if your gonn asit here and tell me Culpepper is only made cause of Moss, then the same much valid arguement could be made for any top QB with a top wideout. Manning cause of Harrison, McNabb cause of TO, Carr's recent success cause of Andre Johnson, Harrington cause of Roy Williams. what if Hines Ward and Burress get knocked out? u actualy think Ben will be as efficient? its a weak arguement cause Moss is the best at his position.

 

[Steelers4Life]

Can the Steelers offensive line win the MVP? They are the main reason the Steelers are 6-1 right now.

You're a Steelers homer, so I take it that you watch more games than I do...but from what I've seen, Big Ben is often running for his life, avoiding sacks, and making perfect throws with multiple defenders drapped all over him.

This is very true. The line is run blocking like a well-oiled machine, but their pass blocking hasn't been that good. If Maddox was still in there, we'd be talking about how poorly they've pass-protected, but Roethlisberger's mobility and elusiveness has hidden that a little.If Rothelibserger played on a team that doesn't run the ball as much as the Steelers, he's already got the talent and composure to put up sickening numbers. The comparisons to Culpepper are ridiculous at this point, becaue they play in vastly different systems. What Roethlisberger is doing as a roookie is every bit as impressive as anything Culpepper has done this year, that's for sure.

 

[jwvdcw]

Moss played the entire first half of two games ago.

the Culpepper hit his WR's all over the field the other half.

Last week, Culpepper played well, but didn't put up any great numbers at all....if he had a performance like that every week, then he wouldn't be in any MVP talks.

u mean sorta like Roethlisberger in his 5 games.

This might sound like hyperbole, but Moss might have a legit chance at being considered one of the greatest players in the history of the NFL. You cannot underestimate his importance.

nope agreed, in my eyes he is the best talent to play the position and some day might surpass Rice. much like he had Montanya, Young ect.

You still have never addressed my point about scrubs like Frerotte, George, etc. putting up pro bowl caliber numbers in that offense...any decent QB will put put up those numbers with Moss.

cause they didnt have a gameplan all they did was do the chuck and throw. if your gonn asit here and tell me Culpepper is only made cause of Moss, then the same much valid arguement could be made for any top QB with a top wideout. Manning cause of Harrison, McNabb cause of TO, Carr's recent success cause of Andre Johnson, Harrington cause of Roy Williams. what if Hines Ward and Burress get knocked out? u actualy think Ben will be as efficient? its a weak arguement cause Moss is the best at his position.

McNabb has played great without TO in the past. Moreover, other QBs have had many bad games even with TO in their lineup.With Moss....every QB puts up sick stats...and there have been like 7 or 8 different QBs, so its not a fluke!I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You look at Pepper and see the great stats. I look at Pepper and see an average at best QB who benefits from perhaps the best football player ever to play on his team.You honestly cannot seriously think that its a fluke that Pepper is in the middle of perhaps the greatest statistical season ever and then when Moss goes out he has one game in which his stats suck and then one game where is is absolutely horrific. That is such a contrast to how he was performing before. You can say its only two games, but for him to change so dramatically from 'best statistical QB of all time' to 'looking like he shouldn't even be a starter' yesterday is amazing. Its all Moss.

 

[Hendo]

McNabb has played great without TO in the past. Moreover, other QBs have had many bad games even with TO in their lineup.

oh really? :rotflmao: the guy has NEVER thrown over 60% in any year until now. he was being laughed at most of last year and the continual theme with him was he needed weapons... WHAT QB DOESNT? its pretty obvious what TO has done for McNabb... your bias critic torwards Culpepper is ever knowing well known now.pointing out with Moss is easy. hes the best there is BUT if u take out a Harrison/TO/CHAD JOHNSON/Roy Williams ect those QB's go down the tubes(well maybe not Manning but it will hurt) its a stupid arguement to make. Moss makes Culpepper... well TO makes McNabb, Harrison makes Manning, Williams makes Harrington, Andre Johnson makes Carr, Roy Williams makes Harrington. i can sit back and say the same with Hines Ward and Burress with Ben.

With Moss....every QB puts up sick stats...and there have been like 7 or 8 different QBs, so its not a fluke!

maybe because hes the best WR in the league i think u can say the same with TO and alot of WR's. some guy named Rattay had some good games with TO just last year.that is not a valid arguement in saying if scrubs can do it then Culpepper is a scrub... its actualy a funny arguement.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You look at Pepper and see the great stats. I look at Pepper and see an average at best QB who benefits from perhaps the best football player ever to play on his team.

wrong i scouted the guy like many others, i see a big mobile pocket pressence, accurate passer with a cannon arm that has deveoped into a force in the league. u see fantasy stats my friend. i bet u have yet to see the guy in person. the "he sucks hes not even top 10 without Moss" is really hilarious... atleast i got my new moto gig for the year.

You honestly cannot seriously think that its a fluke that Pepper is in the middle of perhaps the greatest statistical season ever and then when Moss goes out he has one game in which his stats suck and then one game where is is absolutely horrific.

right.... Culpepper is a fluke Moss pads stats jsut like alot of great WR's but your not going to find me sitting here and callign the others flukes. the 60 yard bombs with precision are flukes. the 70% acc is a fluke too. what is a fluke are people harpin gon Culpepper liek hes the problem for the last time and for the record. he had one bad game without Moss. his sats did not suck agaisnt Tenesse either.... when your football team is averaging 6.9 a carry against the other u dotn toss it all night u feed the RB run the time out and call it a night. its called football... learn the game?

You can say its only two games

it hasnt been 2 it has been one where the whole team failed. do i have to correct you every time? really gets old...

 

[cstu]

How is Culpepper doing without Moss? CPep has never played a game until now without Moss and having the best WR in the league your entire career is a lot different than throwing to Pinkston and Mitchell. I'm sick of TO getting the credit for the Eagles success. He's helping McNabb just like every good WR helps a QB. That's how football works but it still takes a QB to throw the ball and win games. McNabb has been farther in the playoffs more often and with less talent than both Culpepper and Manning but all that gets pointed out is his completion rate - as if he actually had WR's that got open and caught the ball consistently.

 

[Hendo]

cstu- thats exactly my point. i'm not saying Culpepper is better or worse then Manning or McNabb... i do favor him more but people keep pointing out that Moss-TO-Harrison make the QB... which is funny imo. they make them BETTER but there great to begin with.

 

[Evilgrin72]

when your football team is averaging 6.9 a carry against the other u dotn toss it all night u feed the RB run the time out and call it a night. its called football... learn the game?

This is what the Steelers do EVERY week, but yet you continue to point fingers at Roethlisberger's lack of passing yards and TDs as compared to Culpepper as a reason why you continue to "LMAO :rotflmao: " at any talk of Roethlisberger being an MVP candidate.Roethlisberger is never going to put up the "Playstation" numbers that Culpepper (with Moss) will put up because they don't throw the ball nearly as much. Culpepper has over twice the number of pass attempts that Roethlisberger has, so to compare yards and TDs is flaVVed.

The only numbers that matter for Roethlisberger are these :

5 starts - 70.1% completion percentage 104.7 QB rating 4 INT 0 fumbles

5-0 RECORD

This is quite simply unheard of from a rookie QB... yet you continue to dismiss even the POSSIBILITY that he may one day be better than Culpepper.

Culpepper is no scrub, and I never said he was. What I will continue to say is that he is not the most valuable player on his own team, let alone the NFL. Roethlisberger has passed him in MVP consideration, IMHO, and if they beat the Eagles this Sunday, there is no doubt that he has. If the two of them were in an expansion draft right now and I were a GM deciding whom to build my franchise around, it would be Roethlisberger. Those are my points, and I am sticking to them.

 

[jwvdcw]

McNabb has played great without TO in the past. Moreover, other QBs have had many bad games even with TO in their lineup.

oh really? :rotflmao: the guy has NEVER thrown over 60% in any year until now. he was being laughed at most of last year and the continual theme with him was he needed weapons... WHAT QB DOESNT? its pretty obvious what TO has done for McNabb... your bias critic torwards Culpepper is ever knowing well known now.pointing out with Moss is easy. hes the best there is BUT if u take out a Harrison/TO/CHAD JOHNSON/Roy Williams ect those QB's go down the tubes(well maybe not Manning but it will hurt) its a stupid arguement to make. Moss makes Culpepper... well TO makes McNabb, Harrison makes Manning, Williams makes Harrington, Andre Johnson makes Carr, Roy Williams makes Harrington. i can sit back and say the same with Hines Ward and Burress with Ben.

With Moss....every QB puts up sick stats...and there have been like 7 or 8 different QBs, so its not a fluke!

maybe because hes the best WR in the league i think u can say the same with TO and alot of WR's. some guy named Rattay had some good games with TO just last year.that is not a valid arguement in saying if scrubs can do it then Culpepper is a scrub... its actualy a funny arguement.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. You look at Pepper and see the great stats. I look at Pepper and see an average at best QB who benefits from perhaps the best football player ever to play on his team.

wrong i scouted the guy like many others, i see a big mobile pocket pressence, accurate passer with a cannon arm that has deveoped into a force in the league. u see fantasy stats my friend. i bet u have yet to see the guy in person. the "he sucks hes not even top 10 without Moss" is really hilarious... atleast i got my new moto gig for the year.

You honestly cannot seriously think that its a fluke that Pepper is in the middle of perhaps the greatest statistical season ever and then when Moss goes out he has one game in which his stats suck and then one game where is is absolutely horrific.

right.... Culpepper is a fluke Moss pads stats jsut like alot of great WR's but your not going to find me sitting here and callign the others flukes. the 60 yard bombs with precision are flukes. the 70% acc is a fluke too. what is a fluke are people harpin gon Culpepper liek hes the problem for the last time and for the record. he had one bad game without Moss. his sats did not suck agaisnt Tenesse either.... when your football team is averaging 6.9 a carry against the other u dotn toss it all night u feed the RB run the time out and call it a night. its called football... learn the game?

You can say its only two games

it hasnt been 2 it has been one where the whole team failed. do i have to correct you every time? really gets old...

McNabb was a pro bowler without TO. McNabb went deep into the playoffs without TO. I can't believe that you are arguing that McNabb wasn't a star without TO.What makes a good QB is the abillity to be great without a great WR: Manning could do it without Harrison, Brady does it, Vick does it, Favre has done it before, McNair has done it...those are the superstar QBs(I'm sure I'm leaving out a few).

Pepper was terrible two days ago! You have no defense for that. And the funny thing was this: Three weeks ago your entire argument for Pepper was about his stats. But then after he puts up mediocre stats against the Titans, your argument changes to how he just did what he had to do to win the games- exactly what Big Ben has been doing the whole season.

Big Ben will never look as bad as Pepper did yesterday.

LOL at 60 yard bombs with precision. He gets great protection in the pocket and heaves the ball up there for Moss to go get it, then Moss outjumps everyone for it...any QB(i.e. Gus Frerotte) could do that just as easily.

 

[djcolts]

Big Ben just impresses the snot out of me. Even when he makes a mistake like going the wrong way for a handoff - he recovered and ran for the 1st down himself.

 

[jwvdcw]

week 1: 242 yards, 5 TDs, 0 INT, 147 QB rating, team wins

week 2: 343-1-1, 95 rating, loss against the best team in the league

week 3: 360-2-0, 127 rating, win

bye

week 5: 396-5-0, 128 rating, win

week 6: 425-5-2, 125 rating, win

week 7: 183-1-0, 103 rating, win

week 8: 231-1-2, 60 rating, loss

Culpepper is average without Moss. Those are facts presented above. Nothing you can say will change that.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Big Ben just impresses the snot out of me. Even when he makes a mistake like going the wrong way for a handoff - he recovered and ran for the 1st down himself.

"POISE COUNTS !!!!" - Kramer

 

[Yenrub]

I was under the impression that the Steelers running game (led by Duce Staley)was why the Steelers are winning games.

 

[Evilgrin72]

I was under the impression that the Steelers running game (led by Duce Staley)was why the Steelers are winning games.

That's part of it, but another big part is that Roethlisberger doesn't go into the fetal position as soon as the pocket breaks down. He avoids the rush and makes plays that result in first downs. Drives stay alive, the Steelers control the clock. The opposing offense stays off the field, the Steeler defense gets rest. Opposing defenses are forced to respect the deep ball, thus they can't stack vs. the run as they did last year.Roethlisberger is a HUGE part of their success. HUGE.

 

[Uncle Humuna]

Sorry if it got mentioned previously (long thread),but without arguing merit, how bout precedent:Anyone know if a rookie has ever won MVP in the NFL before?Edited to add -> Crap, I sound like a friggin' lawyer . . .

 

[jwvdcw]

Sorry if it got mentioned previously (long thread),but without arguing merit, how bout precedent:Anyone know if a rookie has ever won MVP in the NFL before?Edited to add -> Crap, I sound like a friggin' lawyer . . .

I'm also curious about this...And I can see why some might hold that against him(if its never been done before)...but I think thats foolish to do.

 

[Uncle Humuna]

Sorry if it got mentioned previously (long thread),but without arguing merit, how bout precedent:Anyone know if a rookie has ever won MVP in the NFL before?Edited to add -> Crap, I sound like a friggin' lawyer . . .

I'm also curious about this...And I can see why some might hold that against him(if its never been done before)...but I think thats foolish to do.

I agree with you.My point wasn't really to argue against it(don't know why I presented it the way I did - just kinda came out that way).I'm just very curious also.

 

[Hendo]

This is what the Steelers do EVERY week, but yet you continue to point fingers at Roethlisberger's lack of passing yards and TDs as compared to Culpepper as a reason why you continue to "LMAO  :rotflmao: " at any talk of Roethlisberger being an MVP candidate.

on the contrary, i never pointed fingers at Ben. its quite obvious when a guy is shattering records and the team is winning in Culpeppers case then there shouldnt be any talk of a rookie winning it back when this started. look your obviously a great steeler fan theres nothing i can do but agree to disagree with you on most that u post.

Roethlisberger is never going to put up the "Playstation" numbers that Culpepper (with Moss) will put up because they don't throw the ball nearly as much.  Culpepper has over twice the number of pass attempts that Roethlisberger has, so to compare yards and TDs is flaVVed.

really? may i have the crystal ball please... whos to say he doesnt with 2 exceptional wideout? what happens if Pittsburgh losses defense players and that side of the ball faulters down the road? u still think their gonna run run run? thats a bold statement to use imo.

The only numbers that matter for Roethlisberger are these :

5 starts - 70.1% completion percentage  104.7 QB rating  4 INT  0 fumbles

5-0 RECORD

right... too bad he didnt start the year i'd love to see what he could of done from the start... this isnt all Ben like u are suggesting hes a part of it. Ben Roethlisberger DOES NOT win games for the Steelers imo. he puts them into a situation to win. he plays mistake free, they run the ball well and have the defense to control the colck. view it as how u like thi sis how i view it. its not a knock on him actualy its a good sign at hi sage/experience.

This is quite simply unheard of from a rookie QB... yet you continue to dismiss even the POSSIBILITY that he may one day be better than Culpepper.

actualy this is moot we dont have a good measuring stick to go off of. u keep saying this and yet A:its not over yet. B: he missed a few games from the begining.... its great what he has done but i'm a realist i'll see it when i believe it. and we view him differently i see a QB who puts his team in a winning position u see Marino. and why should i consider him better then Culpepper some day? Culpeper beats him on talent alone. its yet to determine if Minnesota can be a complete team like a "PITTSBURGH" my opinion not yours

Roethlisberger has passed him in MVP consideration, IMHO, and if they beat the Eagles this Sunday, there is no doubt that he has. 

really? hmmm someone call Tom Brady and tell him he got ripped off last year on the award :rotflmao:

If the two of them were in an expansion draft right now and I were a GM deciding whom to build my franchise around, it would be Roethlisberger

great and mine would be Culpepper so....

 

[Hendo]

McNabb was a pro bowler without TO. McNabb went deep into the playoffs without TO. I can't believe that you are arguing that McNabb wasn't a star without TO.

What makes a good QB is the abillity to be great without a great WR: Manning could do it without Harrison, Brady does it, Vick does it, Favre has done it before, McNair has done it...those are the superstar QBs(I'm sure I'm leaving out a few).

Pepper was terrible two days ago! You have no defense for that. And the funny thing was this: Three weeks ago your entire argument for Pepper was about his stats. But then after he puts up mediocre stats against the Titans, your argument changes to how he just did what he had to do to win the games- exactly what Big Ben has been doing the whole season.

Big Ben will never look as bad as Pepper did yesterday.

McNabb was a pro bowler without TO. McNabb went deep into the playoffs without TO. I can't believe that you are arguing that McNabb wasn't a star without TO.

huh?i am not argueing whether McNabb is great(he is) u said TO does not make him which is a laugher... yet Culpepper is made by Moss. again just laughable. theres plenty of threads on this subject go pick and chose which one u want to be proved wrong in. Eagle team>Minny team

What makes a good QB is the abillity to be great without a great WR: Manning could do it without Harrison, Brady does it, Vick does it, Favre has done it before, McNair has done it...those are the superstar QBs(I'm sure I'm leaving out a few).

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: ok go so Peyton would of been stellar for those years that before Wayne's emergence LOLthis is classic Vick does it??? LOL yup hes such a better QB then Culpepper... he needs to learn the position yet hes better

Brady and Favre have had/has multiple good WR's and targets not a Moss but very productive WR's they were no tin the minority here.

McNair has done it? hm Derrick Mason ring a bell?

Pepper was terrible two days ago! You have no defense for that. And the funny thing was this: Three weeks ago your entire argument for Pepper was about his stats. But then after he puts up mediocre stats against the Titans, your argument changes to how he just did what he had to do to win the games- exactly what Big Ben has been doing the whole season.

why should i defend a poorly played game from a high scoring team exactly.... ?and thats where you are confused 3 weeks ago wasnt based off his stats it was off his PLAY your abou tthe only one on the planet who thinks the Tennesse game was played poorly by him.

Big Ben will never look as bad as Pepper did yesterday.

never?? :rotflmao: i'm willing to lay money he has a stinker or 2 in his tim ein the NFL he'd be the ONLY QB who never has had one if that was true.

LOL at 60 yard bombs with precision. He gets great protection in the pocket and heaves the ball up there for Moss to go get it, then Moss outjumps everyone for it...any QB(i.e. Gus Frerotte) could do that just as easily.

really? hhmmm every scoutin greport will state/say as well as mine that Culpepper throws the crispest/tightest deep ball in the league. put Gus on the lin ewith Culpepper and tell me Gus's deep ball or anything thrown is better. and no tfrom your couch.

 

[Hendo]

week 1: 242 yards, 5 TDs, 0 INT, 147 QB rating, team wins

week 2: 343-1-1, 95 rating, loss against the best team in the league

week 3: 360-2-0, 127 rating, win

bye

week 5: 396-5-0, 128 rating, win

week 6: 425-5-2, 125 rating, win- 2nd half no Moss excellent

week 7: 183-1-0, 103 rating, win- excellent play

week 8: 231-1-2, 60 rating, loss-1st stinker of the year by the TEAM

:edited:

 

[Banger]

week 1: 242 yards, 5 TDs, 0 INT, 147 QB rating, team wins

week 2: 343-1-1, 95 rating, loss against the best team in the league

week 3: 360-2-0, 127 rating, win

bye

week 5: 396-5-0, 128 rating, win

week 6: 425-5-2, 125 rating, win- 2nd half no Moss excellent

week 7: 183-1-0, 103 rating, win- excellent play

week 8: 231-1-2, 60 rating, loss-1st stinker of the year by the TEAM

:edited:

funny, when the team wins Culp gets the credit but loses the team gets the blame.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Yes, the Steelers will continue to run, run, run unless something absolutely apocalyptic happens. They will always rely on the run unless they have absolutely no choice.Second, and I am about done with all this - you keep saying Culpepper beats him on talent alone. What talent are you referring to? That Culpepper is faster? Roethlisberger has just as good, if not a better arm, and IMO is a better decision maker, and has a better football IQ than Culpepper did as a first-year starter. Michael Vick sure as hell has Joe Montana beat on the "talent" you are obviously referring to, but who is a better QB? Metrics alone do not measure how good a leader you are.To finally boil this entire debate down to it's essence so we can stop sending posts quoting 5-6 different bits of a previous post, what I had said, and what you argued with me on, was this :Roethlisberger will likely never be the fantasy QB that Culpepper is, but I can see him someday being a better NFL QB.I still feel, and I'd be willing to bet 95% of this board would agree, that this is true. It's entirely possible. They're not THAT far apart now... after 4 years of starting, I don't think it's at all inconceivable to think that Big Ben could be the best QB in the league, in much the same way that people discuss Tom Brady now.You obviously think this is a load of crap, and you're certainly entitled to that opinion. However, to even dismiss the possibility exists, to me, is tantamount to homerism (even though you say you're a Lions fan, with a Daunte avatar )

 

[Hendo]

Yes, the Steelers will continue to run, run, run unless something absolutely apocalyptic happens.  They will always rely on the run unless they have absolutely no choice.

as they should thats what wins football games.

Second, and I am about done with all this - you keep saying Culpepper beats him on talent alone.  What talent are you referring to?  That Culpepper is faster?  Roethlisberger has just as good, if not a better arm, and IMO is a better decision maker, and has a better football IQ than Culpepper did as a first-year starter.

gee i dont know mayb ecause i am a scout? Culpepper IS faster. Ben has an incredible strong arm but Culpepper is the envy of the league. Culpepper can throw abou tten yards further down field with a much more crisp spiral.(take that for what its worth i dotn expect u to believe that anyways) Ben Roethlisberger is not a better decision maker at all. sit there and debate it all u want hes runnin goff a short play calling list (all rooks do) its not till there 3rd year when they got a full understanding of the offense therefore opening up the playcalling more. better football IQ? heh new term i have heard where do we judge this?

Michael Vick sure as hell has Joe Montana beat on the "talent" you are obviously referring to, but who is a better QB?  Metrics alone do not measure how good a leader you are.

your absolutely right... however thats a weak refference since Vick is still trying to "learn" the QB position.

To finally boil this entire debate down to it's essence so we can stop sending posts quoting 5-6 different bits of a previous post, what I had said, and what you argued with me on, was this :

Roethlisberger will likely never be the fantasy QB that Culpepper is, but I can see him someday being a better NFL QB.

who's to say? what happens if the Steelers lose key guys to their defense? what happens if Culpepper is traded and the events turn to the unthiunkable? i'm not going to sit here and i have yet to sit here and say both will NEVER do this goign to the begining i am merely pointin gout peopl etake the next great rookie and over hype them. now we got alot of Steeler fans (evident in here) saying Ben wont have a stinker game ever in the NFL (jwvcd) :rotflmao: it is quite silly if u ask me.

I still feel, and I'd be willing to bet 95% of this board would agree, that this is true.  It's entirely possible.  They're not THAT far apart now... after 4 years of starting, I don't think it's at all inconceivable to think that Big Ben could be the best QB in the league, in much the same way that people discuss Tom Brady now.

u sure abou tthat 95% :rotflmao: they are a long ways apart. its too bad time will only prove that. so were now reffering Ben to Brady?

 

[jwvdcw]

McNabb was a pro bowler without TO. McNabb went deep into the playoffs without TO. I can't believe that you are arguing that McNabb wasn't a star without TO.What makes a good QB is the abillity to be great without a great WR: Manning could do it without Harrison, Brady does it, Vick does it, Favre has done it before, McNair has done it...those are the superstar QBs(I'm sure I'm leaving out a few). Pepper was terrible two days ago! You have no defense for that. And the funny thing was this: Three weeks ago your entire argument for Pepper was about his stats. But then after he puts up mediocre stats against the Titans, your argument changes to how he just did what he had to do to win the games- exactly what Big Ben has been doing the whole season.Big Ben will never look as bad as Pepper did yesterday.

McNabb was a pro bowler without TO. McNabb went deep into the playoffs without TO. I can't believe that you are arguing that McNabb wasn't a star without TO.

huh?i am not argueing whether McNabb is great(he is) u said TO does not make him which is a laugher... yet Culpepper is made by Moss. again just laughable. theres plenty of threads on this subject go pick and chose which one u want to be proved wrong in. Eagle team>Minny team

You're wrong...Culpepper is made by Moss. Culpepper is an average QB(top 15). Gus Frerotte is just a step behind Culpepper.

 

[jwvdcw]

What makes a good QB is the abillity to be great without a great WR: Manning could do it without Harrison, Brady does it, Vick does it, Favre has done it before, McNair has done it...those are the superstar QBs(I'm sure I'm leaving out a few).

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: ok go so Peyton would of been stellar for those years that before Wayne's emergence LOL

Peyton's numbers were better last year(which was when Wayne still hadn't emerged) without Harrison playing. :rotflmao: right back at you.

 

[jwvdcw]

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: ok go so Peyton would of been stellar for those years that before Wayne's emergence LOL this is classic Vick does it??? LOL yup hes such a better QB then Culpepper... he needs to learn the position yet hes better Brady and Favre have had/has multiple good WR's and targets not a Moss but very productive WR's they were no tin the minority here. McNair has done it? hm Derrick Mason ring a bell?

Mason, the GB WRs, Reggie Wayne, Peerless Price, etc. are not in Moss' league. Any great QB is going to make some WR look good...but with those QBs its obviously the QB thats doing it, as the QB performs well without those options. Culpepper does not perform well without Moss. Moreover, Moss has made every QB hes played with look like a pro bowler.

 

[jwvdcw]

never?? :rotflmao: i'm willing to lay money he has a stinker or 2 in his tim ein the NFL he'd be the ONLY QB who never has had one if that was true.

Find me one game where Joe Montana looked that bad...and I don't mean just raw numbers. I mean missing open WRs, turnoers, underthrowing wide open WRs on what should be TDs but they have to wait for the ball so they only get a smaller gain, etc.

 

[jwvdcw]

week 1: 242 yards, 5 TDs, 0 INT, 147 QB rating, team wins

week 2: 343-1-1, 95 rating, loss against the best team in the league

week 3: 360-2-0, 127 rating, win

bye

week 5: 396-5-0, 128 rating, win

week 6: 425-5-2, 125 rating, win- 2nd half no Moss excellent

week 7: 183-1-0, 103 rating, win- excellent play

week 8: 231-1-2, 60 rating, loss-1st stinker of the year by the TEAM

:edited:

so its the team's fault but not Culpepper's?? I have no problem with that...the whole team, not just Culpepper, is average without Moss...there, happy now?

 

[jwvdcw]

Yes, the Steelers will continue to run, run, run unless something absolutely apocalyptic happens. They will always rely on the run unless they have absolutely no choice.Second, and I am about done with all this - you keep saying Culpepper beats him on talent alone. What talent are you referring to? That Culpepper is faster? Roethlisberger has just as good, if not a better arm, and IMO is a better decision maker, and has a better football IQ than Culpepper did as a first-year starter. Michael Vick sure as hell has Joe Montana beat on the "talent" you are obviously referring to, but who is a better QB? Metrics alone do not measure how good a leader you are.To finally boil this entire debate down to it's essence so we can stop sending posts quoting 5-6 different bits of a previous post, what I had said, and what you argued with me on, was this :Roethlisberger will likely never be the fantasy QB that Culpepper is, but I can see him someday being a better NFL QB.I still feel, and I'd be willing to bet 95% of this board would agree, that this is true. It's entirely possible. They're not THAT far apart now... after 4 years of starting, I don't think it's at all inconceivable to think that Big Ben could be the best QB in the league, in much the same way that people discuss Tom Brady now.You obviously think this is a load of crap, and you're certainly entitled to that opinion. However, to even dismiss the possibility exists, to me, is tantamount to homerism (even though you say you're a Lions fan, with a Daunte avatar )

I'll go one step further and say that I've never seen Culpepper play as well as Ben has played in his first few games, and I don't think he ever will play that well.

 

[Hendo]

You're wrong...Culpepper is made by Moss. Culpepper is an average QB(top 15). Gus Frerotte is just a step behind Culpepper.

classic too bad your the only one to think that and well.... how good Pinner is

 

[jwvdcw]

u sure abou tthat 95% :rotflmao: they are a long ways apart. its too bad time will only prove that. so were now reffering Ben to Brady?

I'm pretty sure that most people on this board feel that way...take a look at when I made my MVP list. I tried to be nice and put Pepper at #7...and that was my most critisized selection as many felt he didn't belong in the top 10.

 

[Evilgrin72]

"This is f--king PONDEROUS" - Casey KasemHow long is it supposed to take Michael Vick to "learn" the quarterback position? He is overrated because he's fast. I doubt he'll ever be a great NFL QB. Chargers got a steal.Yeah, I'll compare Roethlisberger to Brady. They are similar in that they both play level-headed, make accurate throws and know how to win games. I don't think it's any accident that Roethlisberger has won 17 straight starts going back to college. He's a winner, just like Brady. Plus, he just SORELY outplayed Brady on a national stage, so I don't think that's absurd at all.Let me break this last point down into the simplest possible terms :What I said was that Roethlisberger will likely never post fantasy numbers like Culpepper does now. Of COURSE, if Daunte ends up leaving the NFL and going to play in the CFL, Roethlisberger will be a more valuable commodity. However, playing for a team that traditionally runs, runs, and runs some more, it is UNLIKELY that Ben will put up huge numbers. Most Steeler QBs never do, they have NEVER had a guy who put up absurd fantasy numbers, it just doesn't happen. The closest thing to that was Kordell, and that was because of his running ability.To end the debate about the potential of each... go ahead and post a poll. Ask the question : "Is it POSSIBLE that Ben Roethlisberger may someday be a better NFL (not fantasy) QB than Daunte Culpepper?" If people are honest, I'd say at least 90% of respondents would have to be willing to submit that he has a chance. Your refusal to acknowledge this is just homerism. Do you think Culpepper is better than Manning?

 

[Evilgrin72]

I can't believe my main ally in an argument on the merits of a Steelers QB is a Ravens fan.... to jwvdcw for being impartial....

 

[Hendo]

How long is it supposed to take Michael Vick to "learn" the quarterback position?  He is overrated because he's fast.  I doubt he'll ever be a great NFL QB.  Chargers got a steal.

you are getting confused here i am not defendign Vick... i agree with what u are saying... to some degree. it takes 3 years to learn the WCO... i think Vick will be fine personaly but i dotn see him ever at all in Culpepper/McNabb class.

Yeah, I'll compare Roethlisberger to Brady.  They are similar in that they both play level-headed, make accurate throws and know how to win games.  I don't think it's any accident that Roethlisberger has won 17 straight starts going back to college.  He's a winner, just like Brady.  Plus, he just SORELY outplayed Brady on a national stage, so I don't think that's absurd at all.

they migh thave similarities but untill Ben leads his team to 2 super bowls wins 2 super bowl MVP's or even plays a full season then i will not compare him to Brady. there both totaly different in style as well as talent. Brady is the best in the league with pocket pressence, hes not as fast as Ben nor as big or strong armed either.

Let me break this last point down into the simplest possible terms :What I said was that Roethlisberger will likely never post fantasy numbers like Culpepper does now.  Of COURSE, if Daunte ends up leaving the NFL and going to play in the CFL, Roethlisberger will be a more valuable commodity.  However, playing for a team that traditionally runs, runs, and runs some more, it is UNLIKELY that Ben will put up huge numbers.  Most Steeler QBs never do, they have NEVER had a guy who put up absurd fantasy numbers, it just doesn't happen.  The closest thing to that was Kordell, and that was because of his running ability.

let me break this down to the simplest of terms: Ben is not Culpepper. Culpepper has more talen twith his legs more arm strength he throws a better deep ball, and hes more accurate with his throws. i dont care if u agree or not i seen both argue till your blue in the face. i am not arguein gon whether or not Ben or Culpepper will be fantasy wise either. Culpepper has Moss and no defense Ben has a complete team... for now i do no thave a crystal ball but i do judge talent and Daunte is the better. your quip to judge Ben lik ehe is the greatest QB to ever coem out of college ... hes one of them but not the messiah. i have and still am merely pointin gout its been 5 games. hes a rookie. he will hit a wall they all do. i want to see how he handles pressure. u can sit there poin tout 90% 80% 100% will agree with you... thats great alot of people on here jump on the next best thing and ride it till it crashes all the time. nothing new... we'll have this debate all year if u want for now enjoy the wins. i hope Ben does well all year there but unlik emany i'm not quip to judgement.

Do you think Culpepper is better than Manning?

hm as a total qb package... i'd have to say Manning. on talent? Culpepper. its close. one posess exceptional knowledge of the game(Manning) the other is still developing as an elite QB(Culpepper) one can annualy throw for 4k the other can scamper for 4hundred with 3.8k in the air. if i had to build my team i'd pick Manning... for now.

 

[Uncle Humuna]

Sorry if it got mentioned previously (long thread),but without arguing merit, how bout precedent:Anyone know if a rookie has ever won MVP in the NFL before?Edited to add -> Crap, I sound like a friggin' lawyer . . .

I'm also curious about this...And I can see why some might hold that against him(if its never been done before)...but I think thats foolish to do.

I agree with you.My point wasn't really to argue against it(don't know why I presented it the way I did - just kinda came out that way).I'm just very curious also.

Found a pretty cool article from Week 3 of last year listing the 10 greatest rookies in NFL history.Best Rookies in NFL HistoryNo MVPs, but in their rookie year:LT was AP Defensive Player of the Year. Eric Dickerson was United Press International's NFC Player of the Year."Night Train" Lane set the record for interceptions in a season (14 - still standing).Marino led his conference in passing (only rookie to EVER do it and he did it in 9 games). He was also the 1st rookie to start at QB in the Pro Bowl.Also, if you're interested, here's a list of MVP winners from 1938 to 2001:NFL MVP Winners

 

[Evilgrin72]

I don't feel like I have been quick to judgment on Ben. I believe he's going to be a great NFL QB because he's heady, he doesn't make a lot of mistakes, he's accurate, has a big arm, and has incredible pocket presence. You pointed out Brady's poise in the pocket, and I agree, but if you watched Sunday's game, Roethlisberger did a much better job of standing in and making good throws. Brady got rattled, Roethlisberger did not. I'm not saying Ben has the goods of a Tom Brady yet. I'm saying he can easily get there someday. To me, the kid looks like a winner. You can't teach poise and feel for the game. Roethlisberger has these things. He's won the respect of a veteran team, coaches around the league, and sportscasters nationwide after just 5 games. That's pretty impressive.Based on this, I think he can develop into an elite QB, as good or better than anyone playing currently. We'll see if that happens or not, only time will tell. Just my opinion. And on that note, let's just agree to disagree. I acknowledge you think Culpepper is better and always will be.

 

[CrossEyed]

Here's some real breaking news about Ben.

Link

I would never have guessed this.

 

[Hendo]

I don't feel like I have been quick to judgment on Ben. I believe he's going to be a great NFL QB because he's heady, he doesn't make a lot of mistakes, he's accurate, has a big arm, and has incredible pocket presence. You pointed out Brady's poise in the pocket, and I agree, but if you watched Sunday's game, Roethlisberger did a much better job of standing in and making good throws. Brady got rattled, Roethlisberger did not.

I'm not saying Ben has the goods of a Tom Brady yet. I'm saying he can easily get there someday. To me, the kid looks like a winner. You can't teach poise and feel for the game. Roethlisberger has these things. He's won the respect of a veteran team, coaches around the league, and sportscasters nationwide after just 5 games. That's pretty impressive.

Based on this, I think he can develop into an elite QB, as good or better than anyone playing currently. We'll see if that happens or not, only time will tell. Just my opinion. And on that note, let's just agree to disagree. I acknowledge you think Culpepper is better and always will be.

well said agree on most accounts

 

[Hendo]

foun dthis for you to smile over evilegrin Marino Praise

 

[Evilgrin72]

That did make me smile... Thanks, Hendo..... now, you can't blame us for making that comparison because Dandy Dan did it himself...

 

[Hendo]

That did make me smile... Thanks, Hendo..... now, you can't blame us for making that comparison because Dandy Dan did it himself...

funny thing is they dont have a damn thing physicaly comparable lol. not event talent wise there 2 totaly different QB's with different style's.

 

[Evilgrin72]

That did make me smile... Thanks, Hendo..... now, you can't blame us for making that comparison because Dandy Dan did it himself...

funny thing is they dont have a damn thing physicaly comparable lol. not event talent wise there 2 totaly different QB's with different style's.

True that..... no similarity at all except the both have big arms, I guess.

 

[jwvdcw]

Not a bad start to today's game. If he knocks off two striaght undefeated teams, then he might just jump to #1 on my list.

 

[Evilgrin72]

It's all going to depend on whether the voters go by winning or by stats... reading Jason Wood's excellent piece on MVP voting would tend to suggest the latter. However, I will say this. If I had a say, he would get my vote. You can't give the award to the entire offensive line for their run blocking (unfortunately) and I think it's obvious from today that Duce Staley isn't the biggest factor in the Steelers' resurgence. I think he deserves it.. he's the key player on the best team in football right now.Unless Culpepper seriously outduels Manning tomorrow night and leads Minnesota to a win, I think Hendo might even have to admit Roethlisberger has passed him in the MVP race....

 

[bueno]

If Ben leads the Steelers into the playoffs, he's got my ROY vote. Noy even close to being dominant enough for MVP though.

 

[Evilgrin72]

If Ben leads the Steelers into the playoffs, he's got my ROY vote. Noy even close to being dominant enough for MVP though.

ROY is a foregone conclusion barring injury.Ben doesn't put up ridiculous yardage and TD numbers because the Steelers rely heavily on the run, especially with the lead. However, he is going to have the #3 QB rating in the NFL when this week's stats go up, he's #2 in the NFL in third-down passer rating, #1 in 4th quarter passer rating, and is the only undefeated quarterback in the league.Sounds pretty dominant to me. Don't think he'll win it because of the emphasis on glamour stats, but I don't see anyone in the NFL right now that is more valuable to his team.