Arizona Ron
Footballguy
If Magic was age 20 in the NBA, he's a starter - today.
I'm not sure Bird at age 20 today makes an NBA team.
Magic.
I'm not sure Bird at age 20 today makes an NBA team.
Magic.
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Bird vs Magic - Who is better all-time? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ghost Rider
- Start date
Abraham
Footballguy
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
The NBA has been great these last few seasons. The "Thug Stars" that killed the NBA are long gone (i.e. Allen I, Marbury, Sprewell).
The overall feel of the NBA right now is as good as the early 90s IMO.
Johnnymac
Footballguy
Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
That is dumber than letting a butch lesbo wear your wife's jewlery while you take her to a networking event where she snaps pictures of the two of you and posts those pics on social networking sites. Hypothetically speaking of course.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Bogeys
Footballguy
zamboni
Footballguy
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Might lead the league in rebounding. Moses's prowess on the offensive glass would have even more value in today's game because the greater emphasis on transition defense makes offensive rebounds a little tougher to get.
His lack of shooting range would be an issue in some systems, but he would be great as the screener in the common NBA set of a pick-and-roll surrounded by three spot-up shooters.
Moses wasn't an elite run protector, but he would be a great fit with this new breed of skinny 7-footers who can contest shots but can't rumble in the blocks and would rather shoot jumpers than post up.
He would also be easy to incorporate with big egos in the locker room because he could score 20 points without having any plays called for him, cleaning up garbage off the glass and grabbing inside position on broken plays.
So, an All-Star who could peacefully coexist with other All-Stars, exactly the type of big you need to make a title run.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Magic played a greater role in James Worthy's journey to the HOF than Bird did in Parish's.Parish was top 10 in rebounding and blocked shots before Bird entered the league, and was still starting games and a productive per-minute rebounder years after Bird retired. Worthy's shooting efficiency cratered after Magic retired and didn't distinguish himself post-Magic.
Whatever criteria used to kick Parish out of the HOF would remove Worthy as well. And wouldn't kick out Kevin McHale or Dennis Johnson.
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
Look at the Forwards in the NBA today. You really think he's getting that many open looks on LeBron, Dwight Howard, Blake Griffin, Dirk Nowitzki, Kevin Love, Paul Pierce, KD, Serge Ibaka etc.????sn0mm1s said:
The Forwards in the NBA today are big, physical guys that can shoot and post you up.
You need more than a jump shot to be a forward in the NBA today.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
If you think all that 20-year-old Bird would have to offer is a jump shot, then I understand why you're so low on him.
I would guess over 99% of the people who saw Bird play when he was 20 would say his pro-ready skill set was much broader than that. Sites like DX would comp him as Dirk with much better passing and more rebounding.
There would be question marks about 20-year-old Magic entering the league today, too. He couldn't guard PGs in the 1980s so he certainly wouldn't be able to guard today's PG breed. What sort of outside shooter would he have been had he grown up in an era where every level of basketball shot threes frequently?
pollardsvision
Footballguy
Think of Bird as a less athletic, tad shorter version of Durant, except Bird was also a much, much better passer, rebounder, and post-game. Bird was a good defender too. Durant has a killer instinct, but not on Bird's level yet.
I don't think Bird has the exact same career in today's NBA, but I think a shorter, much tougher Dirk would be his floor.
I think Bird would have to play far more PF than SF in today's NBA. He'd tear it up as a 6'9" PF in today's game. There are some guys that can post up (nowhere near as many as you allude though), but nothing like in Bird's day, and none as good as he can.
Bird would put on a clinic in the post that would completely baffle his defender every night, while of course, stepping out do drain 3's.
Bird would be baffled for all the times he got the foul line for minor contact.
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Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
Bird was the best I ever saw at creating space for himself in the midrange without dribbling. He would take the pass with a man right on him, throw a series of ball fakes and jab steps without putting the ball on the floor, and then all of a sudden he would have either an open look for a shot or at least a driving angle to set someone else up. The only guy I can think of who approached Bird at this small, specific aspect of the game was Jordan after the baseball sabbatical. During the Bulls second three-peat, Jordan would apply low post footwork and body positioning principles out on the right wing, and the average perimeter defender would have no idea how to combat it.
ETA: Duncan is up there, too. He had the bailout option of just shooting that 18-foot bank shot over his man if he couldn't shake free, but a lot of his assists come from faking his man one way to create an easier pass to the open man in the other direction.
ETA: Duncan is up there, too. He had the bailout option of just shooting that 18-foot bank shot over his man if he couldn't shake free, but a lot of his assists come from faking his man one way to create an easier pass to the open man in the other direction.
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Workhorse
Footballguy
Great youtube clip of Bird's defense: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H76dsMqo3s&safe=active
He was a very underrated defensive player and one of the great "help defenders" of all time.
He was a very underrated defensive player and one of the great "help defenders" of all time.
pollardsvision
Footballguy
Another video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIKH2fb_PxA
Bird dominating some of the best defenders and/or NBA athletes of all-time (Rodman, Horace Grant, 'Nique, Bobby Jones, Cliff Robinson, and Pippen when Bird's back was pretty much toast).
Surely, AR thinks Pippen, Dominique, and Rodman could somehow find a way onto an NBA roster these days.
Bird being guarded by more hacks that could never make it in today's game (Cooper, Jordan, Worthy): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TxC_k9Bv0
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Judge Smails
Footballguy
Disagree with both of these. I am a huge Laker fan and had season tickets for part of the Showtime era. Big Magic fan. But he couldn't do everything Bird could do. Bird was much better at creating his own shot. He was like a more nimble Nowitzki when it came to posting up, fallaway jumpers, etc. Bird was a much better shooter overall. Both were great passers, rebounders, etc.
Lebron couldn't touch Magic as it relates to ball handling and passing. Sure, he can drive to the hole but that's it.
I honestly can't choose between Bird and Magic. Massive respect for both.
Arizona Ron
Footballguy
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
You have enough quality posts to get a pass on this one... Just don't do this again.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
LeBron sometimes loses the handle in traffic, and on rare occasions makes baffling footwork errors that lead to turnovers, neither of which were issues with Magic. However, LeBron's court vision is extraordinary, and he is a fantastic passer. If anything, LeBron gets criticized too much for making great passes to wide open shooters when critics think he should put his head down and go to the rack.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Bird was a cold blooded assassin who drew the best defender on a nightly basis. However, because of his passing, it was never a good idea to double him. He could finish in the paint or on the perimeter.
After looking at the list of defenders, only 1/3 of which would guard Bird on a regular basis...I am aware that you are fishing.
Having defended the likes of Malone and Shaq, there is no question Rodman could compete with LeBron. He had great defensive instincts and fundamentals to go with terrific athleticism and ridiculous conditioning, which allowed him to be one of the best man defenders and most versatile defenders of all time. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that Rodman would be the best defender in the modern era to put on LeBron.
Defense isn't only about matching up physically. And anyway, most everyone gets bullied to an extent by LeBron. Pippen's length and anticipation would definitely bother LeBron when facing up - Shawn Marion, an inferior defender, did as much a few years ago. LeBron's improved post game would make it difficult on Pippen, but that is still not where LeBron is most comfortable.
Artest in his prime, however short lived, was a great defender. He had the bulk, but I'd put him behind Rodman and Pippen.
LeBron's first step on the perimeter would be the major issue for KG. His strength would be negated by Garnett's extra 3-4 inches.
sports_fan
Footballguy
Do you think Bird could make the WNBA?Arizona Ron said:
saintsfan
Footballguy
There is so much fail in this post that it's not even funny.
As to the question at hand, looking at FG% and assists and claiming that Magic is more "effective" on offense is the height of idiocy. Larry was a much better scorer than Magic was. If Larry were on another team, he could easily have led the league in scoring, multiple times. Because of his position, Magic was the better playmaker and certainly the better ball handler, but Larry drew a team's best defender every night and was better than Magic inside and outside as a scorer. Defender?? Neither was great as an individual, but Larry has a couple of All Defensive Team selections. Bottom line, Magic won more titles because the best player in the history of the NBA was on his team.
As far as Larry not being able to be on an NBA team, yeah, think Dirk Novitski with better passing, rebounding, post moves, and toughness. Larry would be a super star in today's game.
How many guys shot 50% from the field, 40% from 3, and 90% from the free throw line in a season? I'll save you the trip. There are only 6 of them and Larry was the first...
As to the question at hand, looking at FG% and assists and claiming that Magic is more "effective" on offense is the height of idiocy. Larry was a much better scorer than Magic was. If Larry were on another team, he could easily have led the league in scoring, multiple times. Because of his position, Magic was the better playmaker and certainly the better ball handler, but Larry drew a team's best defender every night and was better than Magic inside and outside as a scorer. Defender?? Neither was great as an individual, but Larry has a couple of All Defensive Team selections. Bottom line, Magic won more titles because the best player in the history of the NBA was on his team.
As far as Larry not being able to be on an NBA team, yeah, think Dirk Novitski with better passing, rebounding, post moves, and toughness. Larry would be a super star in today's game.
How many guys shot 50% from the field, 40% from 3, and 90% from the free throw line in a season? I'll save you the trip. There are only 6 of them and Larry was the first...
Johnnymac
Footballguy
pollardsvision
Footballguy
And there have only been 2 that did it while scoring 25PPG or more. Bird twice and Durant in '12-'13. All three times over 28PPG. Going down to 20PPG only adds Dirk.
Of course, if you throw in 9 rebounds and 6 assists to along with that, the BSK-REF engine will laugh and just say "of course, Bird's the only one you dip####" And Bird did it TWICE. He tossed in almost 2 steals a game those seasons for good measure.
And actually there were 8 players that did it (Bird, Durant, Dirk, Nash, Reggie, Price, Kerr, and Calderon did it one of those years that he carried "Bosh's" Raptors to the Playoffs).
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Arizona Ron
Footballguy
Gadzooks
Footballguy
Bird. But it's obviously close.
They were in the league together for 12 seasons. After the 86 season (their 7th season in the league) there was no question Bird was better. He had just won his 3rd consecutive MVP (Magic had none at that point) and was coming off his 3rd Championship on a team that is arguably the greatest team ever. At that point Magic had 3 championships playing with Kareem and no MVPs. More than half way thru their careers and they have the same championships and Bird has 3 more MVPs.
In 87 Magic wins his first MVP, despite Bird putting up these ridiculous averages for the season: 28.1 pts 9.2 Reb 7.6 Asst 52% FG 40% 3pt 91% ft. They meet again in the 87 Finals and this is the Series that could've changed history. Lakers win it in 6 games, the biggest win was Game 5 in the Garden with Magic hitting the game winner with his baby sky hook in the lane. The Celtics were completely beat up going into that series, Walton couldn't play because of his feet, McHale had a broken foot which he tried to play thru (he was never the same again) Parish, Bird, Ainge all had assorted injuries to ankles, knees and elbows. On Magic's game winner in game5, the Lakers had possession because of a questionable out of bounds call. I know you can say "if" about every series but IF McHale doesn't have a broken foot, if Walton was close to being healthy and IF that questionable out of bounds call goes the Celts way....history would be different. Bird would've been the first of his era to win back to back, he'd end up being tied with Magic with 4 titles at the end of their careers and I truly believe the argument about greatest ever would be about Bird and Jordan and Magic wouldn't be mentioned. Obviously that didn't happen and the Lakers ended up winning back to back the next year and in total Magic has 5 championships to Bird's 3 and they both end up with 3 MVPs. The next year Bird put up his best scoring season ever in 88 and had another amazing season averaging: 29.9 pts 9.3 Reb 6.1 Asst 52% FG 41% 3pt 91%ft. Look at those numbers again along the before-mentioned averages from 1987, especially the shooting percentages. Establishing that through the 86 season Bird was better, he then put up those two ridiculous seasons (Jordan won the MVP in 88) In the 89 season Bird only played in 6 games due to double heel surgery. He came back in the 1990 season to average 24.3 pts 9.5 Reb 7.5 Asst 47% FG 33% 3pt 93% FT. He missed major chunks of the 91 and 92 seasons due to his back.
Magic was great, the best point guard ever. Like Bird he was great all around, passing, rebounding and a great team defender but he was never the scorer or shooter that Bird was. Defensively they were similar, great help and team defenders, both equally great passers with a slight edge to Magic, Bird was a better rebounder but Bird was better at shooting and creating shots. I think the stats support Bird being better thru their first 9 seasons and then injuries hampered Bird over the last 3 seasons when Magic was playing arguably his best.
They were in the league together for 12 seasons. After the 86 season (their 7th season in the league) there was no question Bird was better. He had just won his 3rd consecutive MVP (Magic had none at that point) and was coming off his 3rd Championship on a team that is arguably the greatest team ever. At that point Magic had 3 championships playing with Kareem and no MVPs. More than half way thru their careers and they have the same championships and Bird has 3 more MVPs.
In 87 Magic wins his first MVP, despite Bird putting up these ridiculous averages for the season: 28.1 pts 9.2 Reb 7.6 Asst 52% FG 40% 3pt 91% ft. They meet again in the 87 Finals and this is the Series that could've changed history. Lakers win it in 6 games, the biggest win was Game 5 in the Garden with Magic hitting the game winner with his baby sky hook in the lane. The Celtics were completely beat up going into that series, Walton couldn't play because of his feet, McHale had a broken foot which he tried to play thru (he was never the same again) Parish, Bird, Ainge all had assorted injuries to ankles, knees and elbows. On Magic's game winner in game5, the Lakers had possession because of a questionable out of bounds call. I know you can say "if" about every series but IF McHale doesn't have a broken foot, if Walton was close to being healthy and IF that questionable out of bounds call goes the Celts way....history would be different. Bird would've been the first of his era to win back to back, he'd end up being tied with Magic with 4 titles at the end of their careers and I truly believe the argument about greatest ever would be about Bird and Jordan and Magic wouldn't be mentioned. Obviously that didn't happen and the Lakers ended up winning back to back the next year and in total Magic has 5 championships to Bird's 3 and they both end up with 3 MVPs. The next year Bird put up his best scoring season ever in 88 and had another amazing season averaging: 29.9 pts 9.3 Reb 6.1 Asst 52% FG 41% 3pt 91%ft. Look at those numbers again along the before-mentioned averages from 1987, especially the shooting percentages. Establishing that through the 86 season Bird was better, he then put up those two ridiculous seasons (Jordan won the MVP in 88) In the 89 season Bird only played in 6 games due to double heel surgery. He came back in the 1990 season to average 24.3 pts 9.5 Reb 7.5 Asst 47% FG 33% 3pt 93% FT. He missed major chunks of the 91 and 92 seasons due to his back.
Magic was great, the best point guard ever. Like Bird he was great all around, passing, rebounding and a great team defender but he was never the scorer or shooter that Bird was. Defensively they were similar, great help and team defenders, both equally great passers with a slight edge to Magic, Bird was a better rebounder but Bird was better at shooting and creating shots. I think the stats support Bird being better thru their first 9 seasons and then injuries hampered Bird over the last 3 seasons when Magic was playing arguably his best.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I still say...Bird.
Mr. Ected
Footballguy
I will admit at the front that I am biased because I am a M###hole; I grew up near Boston in the 80s, right in the prime time of Larry Joe Bird, he is my favorite player of all time. I love Bird's 'obnoxiousness;' things like his informing guys on an opponent's bench how he was going to school a rookie, without addressing the rookie directly. He then went on and played exactly as he described. I also remember a story of him playing against someone starting the game telling him '40' and counting down the points as he scored.
Description of LJB as a trash talker.
I'm sure this was mentioned before, but isn't it a bit of apples and oranges, since Magic was really a guard, and Bird was a forward?
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